[HN Gopher] Which emoji scissors close? (2020) ___________________________________________________________________ Which emoji scissors close? (2020) Author : philshem Score : 378 points Date : 2022-10-27 16:36 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (wh0.github.io) (TXT) w3m dump (wh0.github.io) | [deleted] | Amorymeltzer wrote: | Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21942358 | alexambarch wrote: | I love watching people go in depth and get passionate about | something that seems so trivial. The next time someone asks why I | don't use Microsoft's emojis I'll let them know it's because it | takes too long to cut things with their scissor emoji. | Joker_vD wrote: | That's the first time I've heard that there are left- and right- | handed scissors. Is there actually a noticeable difference in | usage? | vl wrote: | Simple test is to get right-handed scissors and try to cut with | your left hand (as your are required to do is some projects due | to tool or space constraints). You'll notice that you have to | "horizontally" push in opposite way, which is really hard to | do. | Sharlin wrote: | Then there's ergonomic scissors, like the iconic Fiskars ones | [1], which are obviously extra uncomfortable to use if wrong- | handed. | | [1] You can probably find a pair or two in every Finnish | household: https://www.fiskars.com/en-us/crafting-and- | sewing/products/s... | mrweasel wrote: | You're going to love this then: There are left-handed bread | knifes, and I want one. | | Bread knifes have a ever so slight slant to the cutting | surface, to ensure that it actually goes straight through the | bread. Without it the bottom of the slice will be a little more | narrow, or thicker, I can't remember. Anyway, if your left | handed the cut goes into the bread at an angle and the bottom | get much wider than the top. This happens because the slant in | the knife is to the wrong side (for left handed people). It is | basically impossible to compensate for, without attempting to | use your right hand, which just makes it worse really. | | The price of the cheapest available left handed bread knife | I've been able to find: USD100. | matsemann wrote: | Yeah, the edge on a serrated bread knife is like |/ and not | \/. | | I got a cutting knife (Oyo japansk kokkekniv), which has | holes in it and a bump on one side to get rid of vacuum and | things sticking to the knife when cutting. I actually got | that in a lefty version, with the bumps on the other side. | schiem wrote: | You have just answered why I've never been able to cut bread | straight. I always thought I was just bad at it and somehow | everyone else had mastered bread cutting while I wasn't | paying attention. | londons_explore wrote: | Put the bread face down on the table, and now cut | horizontally a half inch off the table... | | Perfect slice! | | You can use this technique even with blunt knives like | butter knives. | the_mitsuhiko wrote: | I accidentally bought a left handed scissor for my son and we | had to return it. Was incredibly uncomfortable to use. | samcheng wrote: | It's noticeable enough that, as a lefty, I learned early on to | use scissors with my right hand. | BugsJustFindMe wrote: | Handle ergonomics aside, because scissors aren't required to | have ergonomic handles, you really want the nearer blade on the | bottom so you can see exactly where the cut will be. A nearer | top blade would overhang and obstruct the view of the cut line. | | People talking about causing the paper to fold are either | describing how they have subconsciously tilted the scissors to | be able to see where they are cutting or the fact that many but | not all scissors have handle shapes that curve wrong if held in | the wrong hand so they end up holding those specific scissors | oddly, which means that the scissors are no longer slicing | perpendicular to the paper. | | But handle curvature is not a requirement of scissors, just a | characteristic of some of them. | | If the scissors don't have ergonomically sloped handles, an | ambidextrous person can comfortably cut with either hand if | they don't look at what they're doing. | tsukurimashou wrote: | oh yeah, I'm left handed and right handed scissors just don't | cut anything when I use my left hand, they just fold the paper | Joker_vD wrote: | I'm also left handed and the only difference I've ever | noticed is that when I use scissors (whatever they may come | from) with my right hand, the cuts are less precise. That's | it. And everything I do with my right hand is less precise | than when I do it with my left hand. | ianferrel wrote: | Yes. When you close scissors, you use your grip to push the | blades together perpendicular to the direction of travel. This | makes the blades closer to each other so they slice. | | You probably do this without thinking about it due to practice, | but if you watch little kids try to use scissors, they'll | sometimes end up with the paper just turning sideways and | folding flat between the blades. | | If you use the correct handed scissors, your natural grasp will | cause this to happen fairly easily. If you use the wrong handed | scissors, you have to push your thumb _away_ from your palm at | the same time you bring it closer to your fingers. Unnatural | and uncomfortable. | matsemann wrote: | I agree with this being the issue. With a right handed | scissor in my left hand, I feel like I have to "pull" with my | thumb to keep the blades together. Same scissor in tje right | hand, that instead is a slight push but that happens | automatically as I do the cut motions. | moffkalast wrote: | Tbf if the grip can alter the distance between the blades you | need to recalibrate them by adjusting the middle screw | (unless they're riveted in which case welp) that holds them | together. Well maintained scissors ought to cut perfectly | well in both hands. | BugsJustFindMe wrote: | This isn't it. The shape of the handle is orthogonal to | whether a scissor is left or right handed. The real | difference is in which blade half is on the bottom. | ianferrel wrote: | Right, because which blade half is on the bottom affects | which direction you need to apply force so the blades meet | tightly. I didn't mention anything about the shape of the | handle... | BugsJustFindMe wrote: | What you described misunderstands or at least poorly | describes the problem. | | > _Right, because which blade half is on the bottom | affects which direction you need to apply force so the | blades meet tightly._ | | That would violate Newton's Third Law of motion, so no. | | You don't have to apply force in any different direction | if you put scissors with symmetric handles in the wrong | hand. You will, however, end up tilting the scissors to | the side so that you can see what you're doing. But | that's not the same as needing to apply force any | differently. It's a required sight issue not a required | force issue. Anything else only comes from handle shape. | | If the scissors don't have ergonomically sloped handles, | an ambidextrous person can comfortably cut with either | hand if they don't look at what they're doing. | jasode wrote: | _> You don 't have to apply force in any different | direction if you put scissors with symmetric handles in | the wrong hand. [...] But that's not the same as needing | to apply force any differently._ | | For precision made scissors with tight tolerances at the | pivot joint and sharp blades (premium brands like Kai, | Gingher, etc), it will cut with either hand. | | But for scissors with a loose rivet (like cheaper | scissors very common in kids' schools), the gp | (ianferrel) you replied to is correct: the blades will | not close tightly if the wrong hand is used to squeeze. | The loose rivet scissors in the wrong hand will _fold_ | the paper instead of cutting it because the natural | finger-closing motion will _spread the blades apart | creating a tiny gap_ instead of making them touch. | | Here's a 1-minute video that tries to visually explain | what a left-handed person struggling with a right-handed | scissor experiences: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyGCvSCnkWk | BugsJustFindMe wrote: | It sounds like you and they have decided that a human | hand scissoring may only push inward or outward or | neither using one side of the hand but not the other. | That's not true about hands or about scissors though, | even poorly constructed scissors. Your thumb and fingers | of both hands are equally capable of producing both | separating and joining force while closing. You and they | have just decided that curling your fingers and pushing | your thumb outward is right and the opposite is wrong, | but the opposite works too. The scissors don't care and | hands support both. | cbm-vic-20 wrote: | TIL: I've been using scissors wrong my entire life. I | didn't realize that you need to push the handles to apply | lateral force to the blades to make them slide against | each other, the more the better. | anyfoo wrote: | Sorry for asking, but isn't that... obvious? So obvious | that I bet most people just don't think about it | consciously at all. If you don't do that, they don't cut | properly, but it's likely to be something that the brain | sorts out for you without you realizing the forces you | apply. | ianferrel wrote: | You probably haven't been. You probably learned it with | muscle memory as a kid and just weren't aware of it. I | wasn't aware of it until I was in my late 30s and was | helping my kids learn to use scissors. | nyanpasu64 wrote: | And for the average scissors I use, it won't cut properly | in _either hand_. Interestingly haircut scissors are | _better_ at cutting paper than regular paper scissors! I | tried disassembling a pair of haircut scissors, and found | the screw is interestingly rotationally locked to the | blade next to the _nut_ (rather than screw head), and the | nut has a spring-loaded locking mechanism (a planar | version of mouse wheel notches) so it doesn 't rotate | unless you turn the nut with a large amount of torque. | ianferrel wrote: | >You don't have to apply force in any different direction | if you put scissors with symmetric handles in the wrong | hand. | | Yes! You do! | | So scissors hinge on a pivot point, and they hinge in | _two_ dimensions. They mostly move in the dimension that | they cut in, but they also move _a little_ in the | perpendicular dimension. And in order to bring the | cutting edges _closer_ , you move the handle ends | _farther_ away. If you 're using the correct-handed | scissors, doing so is easy and natural because your hand | grip curls one way easily. If you then switch the same | scissors to the other hand, it's hard and uncomfortable | because your other hand is a mirror image and your | natural hand grip curls to bring the handles closer and | the cutting edges farther away. | | The fact that you keep mentioning that this violates some | law of physics is bonkers. | BugsJustFindMe wrote: | Your thumb and fingers of both hands are equally capable | of producing both separating and joining force while | closing. You learned to do it one way, by pushing out | with your thumb and pulling in with your other fingers, | so that way feels better to you, but that's a property of | you not a property of scissors. | bscphil wrote: | It's got nothing to do with hand capability, you've | misunderstood. For an ambidextrous person, using right- | handed scissors in their right hand will work properly, | using right-handed scissors in their left hand will work | poorly. And vice versa for left-handed scissors. | | When holding scissors, the bottom blade is held fairly | steady. The top blade tends to get pushed _away_ from the | rest of the hand by the action of the thumb. If the top | blade is on the _far_ side of the scissors (away from the | hand), the far blade edge will get pushed _towards_ the | near blade edge when the thumb handle is pushed away | (because the blade is on the other side of the hinge from | the handle). If the top blade is on the _near_ side of | the scissors (the hand side), by pushing the thumb handle | away from you, you are separating the two blades rather | than pushing them together. | | So on right handed scissors, with the thumb handle facing | up, the thumb blade is on the left side of the hinge. | That way the natural "push away" force from the thumb | will keep the blades close together when held in the | right hand. On left handed scissors, the thumb blade is | on the right side of the hinge, for the correct push- | together force when held in the left hand. | brainfish wrote: | It's so weird you are choosing this hill to die on. And | you are completely wrong; 7-year-old left-handed me had | the empirical experience to know this. | ianferrel wrote: | >Your thumb and fingers of both hands are equally capable | of producing both separating and joining force while | closing. | | What makes you so sure? The ergonomics of the thumb, | fingers, and hand are not symmetric. The left-handed | people who struggled with right-handed scissors as kids | suggest otherwise. | krsrhe wrote: | It's because people aren't aware the 2nd dimension, the | looseness of the connection between the planes of the | blades, where the screw isn't (and can never be) | perfectly tight yet still allows the blades to slide. | It's hard to get the idea across in text. Your second | comment helped a lot. | tuhriel wrote: | It definitely has also to do with the force applied. If | the blades are setup for the other hand your default grip | will puah the blades apart and you can get the paper | between the blades Thats why as a lefty I had major | issues with the cheap scissors (which had a ton of play | on the hinge) we had in school, bit if you have a | decently made scissor the issue is much less severe. | BugsJustFindMe wrote: | Sorry, what you're describing violates Newton's Third | Law. The force applied by one side is equal and opposite | to the force from the opposing side. Scissor blades, | paper, and force don't care which side is up. Anything | other than line of sight is 100% handle ergonomics, and | scissors aren't required to have wrong-side-incompatible | handles. | ianferrel wrote: | The sight issue is true (but in my opinion not the major | difference). | | Have you watched little kids learn to use scissors? You | really _do_ need to apply force to bring the blades | together or they won 't cut well. You likely do this | unconsciously. I didn't think about it until I was | teaching my children how to cut with scissors and noticed | that they would generally end up folding the paper were I | could cut it (toddler scissors aren't very sharp, so it's | even more important to push the blades together from the | side). | rvbissell wrote: | The comment you replied to never mentions handles (their | shape, or otherwise). | lyptt wrote: | I never much point in them as a kid. I'm left handed and I | found it harder to use left handed scissors in my left hand | than using right handed scissors in my right hand. | NackerHughes wrote: | It depends, I guess. I'm left-handed and sometimes I like to | hold the object I'm cutting with my left hand, rather than | the scissors. | Freak_NL wrote: | I've always used right-handed scissors as these are simply the | default, but a year ago I bought proper left-handed scissors | (one general purpose and one for fabric) and now after almost | 40 years of using the wrong type of scissor I can't imagine | ever suffering those again. You can use the wrong scissors, but | you're constantly compensating and getting a cramped hand in | return. It makes a huge difference. | philo23 wrote: | I'm left handed but I've always used right handed scissors in | my right hand. I can actually cut with either, but cutting | right handed has always been more natural for me. Using the | left handed scissors in my left hand requires more | concentration. | | The only real benefit I've ever noticed of left handed scissors | is that when you hold them in your left hand, you can see the | point on the paper where the blades are going to cut. Holding a | pair of right handed scissors in your left hand (or vice-versa) | obscures that point behind the top blade, making it a lot | harder to make accurate cuts. | | If you try holding a pair of regular right handed scissor in | your left hand you should be able to see the issue of the top | blade covering the part of the paper you want to cut. Which let | me tell you, makes following dotted lines a lot harder in | school if you're using them on the wrong hand... | | That's the only difference I've ever come across anyway, not | sure what other commenters are talking about with the paper | turning sideways! | bondarchuk wrote: | I just got the nearest pair of scissors and cut a sheet of | paper with it, it was equally easy both with my left hand and | my right. Even holding it very loosely so I couldn't secretly | unconsciously apply some horizontal force it cut fine, as well | as when tilted slightly left or right. The two halves seem | perfectly identical, too, so I don't know what's this talk | about "nearer blade on the bottom" either by some sibling | comment, seems like both blades are about equally near and | obviously one is on the bottom and the other on top. | | So in short I have no idea what everyone's on about. | mkl wrote: | Some scissors are more ambidextrous than others. If the | blades are curved towards each other enough then you may not | need sideways pressure from your thumb and fingers, and even | sideways pressure in the wrong direction may not matter. I | have some scissors like this and some not. | | Alternatively, it's possible to apply the sideways pressure | in the opposite direction to the "natural" one, and thereby | use scissors with the hand they're not intended for (you may | even be doing that without realising - I do). My dad is left- | handed but struggles to use left-handed scissors as he didn't | have access to them until later in life and is just used to | applying sideways pressure in the "wrong" direction. | bondarchuk wrote: | > _If the blades are curved towards each other enough then | you may not need sideways pressure from your thumb and | fingers_ | | I've never heard of nor seen scissors with blades curved | towards each other and I don't see why they ever would be | anything but straight in that dimension. | im3w1l wrote: | I did the same and had the same result. From reading the the | other comments, I suspect a high-end pair of scissors is more | tolerant of technique whereas as low end scissor you have to | push and pull the blades just so for it to work. | mortehu wrote: | We have a pair of nail scissors that I cannot use to cut my | right hand's fingernails. Most aren't like this, so it's | clearly possible to make ambidextrous scissors. | cloudier wrote: | Similar posts: | | - Ants: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17555842 | | - Smiling faces: https://grouplens.org/blog/investigating-the- | potential-for-m... | | - Butterflies: http://emilydamstra.com/news/please-enough-dead- | butterflies/ | | - Trains: | https://mobile.twitter.com/BisTheFairy/status/11925577307096... | | - Horses: | https://twitter.com/jelenawoehr/status/1191872816372600832?l... | | - Planets: | https://mobile.twitter.com/physicsJ/status/12326622114383708... | | - Telescopes: | https://mobile.twitter.com/BeckePhysics/status/1233414553607... | | - Parachutes: https://darekkay.com/blog/parachute-emoji/ | | - Chickens: https://www.tumblr.com/ub- | notactive/176663342440/reviewing-a... | | - Snakes: | https://anothertiredmonster.tumblr.com/post/156610510939/sna... | culi wrote: | This is an incredible collection. Thank you so much for keeping | it | dang wrote: | I still want to write some software to support community- | curated lists of related links. It would include whatever I'm | currently posting as "related"* plus fabulous contributions | like cloudier's above. | | * https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&qu | e... | stavros wrote: | https://linkpack.io? | | https://www.linkpack.io/lp/5nGYs4/ | culi wrote: | This is also a dream of mine and I have many thoughts | around this. I have a lot of little collections like this | list and have always wanted a way to open this up to | community contributions | | I also don't think "awesome lists" are a sufficient | solution for a number of reasons. Like this list is a | perfect example of something that would (1) definitely get | ignored on GitHub, (2) not reach the most likely target | audiences, (3) not be easy to contribute to for basically | anyone who doesn't know what a "git" is (so, the majority | of people on earth) | bondarchuk wrote: | You often find these on github as "awesome-[something]" and | accepting contributions as PRs. | jonathankoren wrote: | Whenever I peruse emojidex or any other emoji comparison, it's | obvious that Apple that sets the emoji and pretty much everyone | else copies it. | Gigachad wrote: | Apple is usually first to get their designs in to the OS so | everyone else sort of has to or they will be the odd ones out. | Especially when most users are on iOS, the expectations are set | on what ios displays it as. | ziacker wrote: | jtolmar wrote: | Lovely little collection of sites like this, which showed up last | time - https://href.cool/Crimes/Simple | | (I linked to the category that the scissors is filed under, but | the collection is extensive) | mgdlbp wrote: | Ironically named site doesn't like deep linking -- navigate | from https://href.cool/ | squokko wrote: | Microsoft's emojis are so bad that it seems like they were | intentionally made terrible. | cglong wrote: | They've been updated for Windows 11, which was released after | this article :) | OJFord wrote: | I've never really understood (said like I've spent much time | thinking about it!) why wrong-handed scissors are so | difficult/impossible to use. We must angle them slightly, sub- | consciously, w.r.t. our standing vertical (out of the plane | projected forward from our figure)? | sushid wrote: | Are you a lefty? I'm a lefty scissors user as well so I've | gotten used to right hand scissors (you just push the bottom | blade to the right as you cut). That may not be the case for | most right handed folks since it "just works" most of the time. | tomcam wrote: | I just gave up & learned scissors, guitar, fencing, etc | right-handed. Only things I do as a lefty are writing and | baseball. | OJFord wrote: | No, right-handed, but left-handed were readily (read: overly) | available at school so I recall trying them thinking surely | it's just a comfort thing at most how could it possibly make | a difference, and the paper or whatever just flopping up | parallel to the blades instead of being cut. | iforgotpassword wrote: | That happens the other way round too, hence the workaround | GP suggested. It's a little uncomfortable because you | naturally push the other way while cutting, but you can get | used to it. | | When you use left handed scissors with your right hand, you | apply some force to the blades that moves them slightly | apart, while with right-handed ones, you force them | together tightly. You need to actively work against that. | LanceH wrote: | Right hander with right handed scissors, you pull the lower | loop toward yourself and push the upper loop away, this pushes | the blades into each other. If you can use the "wrong-handed" | scissors, you can reverse the pull/push and get the blades | together, but it feels weird/unnatural. It does work, though. | MichaelCollins wrote: | I'm a lefty and left-handed scissors are impossible for me to | use. And not from lack of exposure I think, one of my memories | from elementary school was the teacher trying to make me use | left-handed scissors because she knew I was a lefty, but they | simply wouldn't cut for me. | | I think there must be more to the left/right handed thing, | because I'm effectively right-handed in everything I do | _except_ writing. Even in novel tasks I haven 't done before: | I'll try first left handed, it doesn't work, then I try again | right handed and it works fine. But when it comes to writing | specifically, I'm very clearly a lefty. | ummonk wrote: | To be clear, which hand have you tried to use left handed | scissors with, and which has do you use right handed scissors | with? | Double_a_92 wrote: | Because you subconsciously push the blades togheter in the | right way, so the gap gets narrower and the cut sharper. While | if the scissor is mirrored you pull them apart. | vl wrote: | And if you teach child to use scissors, you need to explain | how to pull, otherwise they can't use them. | layer8 wrote: | I'm surprised there aren't "left-handed"/"right-handed" emoji | modifiers yet for more inclusivity. | 867-5309 wrote: | don't forget the ambis | layer8 wrote: | Unicode modifiers can stack. ;) | knolan wrote: | What about the original scissors? | | -----8<----- | tsomctl wrote: | > My last post was about either How to transport a convex object | on a camel or Android Studio's "Code contains easter egg" | inspection. Find out which. | | I realize one option is supposed to be ludicrous, but based on | this post, either option is possible. | [deleted] | jimmaswell wrote: | The handles could be designed to overlap in the 3rd axis. I think | I've seen scissors like this but I can't find an example. | mc32 wrote: | It's an icon. A representation of the actual thing. It does not | have to conform to actual physical requirements. | | It's neat I guess, but isn't really a productive pursuit. | Sohcahtoa82 wrote: | > It's neat I guess, but isn't really a productive pursuit. | | Heaven forbid someone's curiosity doesn't result in something | useful. | | Sometimes people do things for fun and self-satisfaction. | samb1729 wrote: | > It's neat I guess, but isn't really a productive pursuit. | | Yes, and? No one claimed otherwise. It's just a fun thing | someone did, shared with other people who might want to be | briefly entertained. | jraph wrote: | > It's an icon. A representation of the actual thing. It does | not have to conform to actual physical requirements. | | The article say it. | | > but isn't really a productive pursuit. | | It's fun and kinda interesting though. If you reflect on what | productive things enable, at the end, it's always "futile". | alambra wrote: | A lot of the emojis also seem to have a bevel along the inside | cutting edge, making it impossible to cut anything because the | edges of the two blades don't meet. A real pair of scissors would | only have a bevel on the outside edge. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-10-27 23:00 UTC)