[HN Gopher] As last module docks, China completes its space station ___________________________________________________________________ As last module docks, China completes its space station Author : rippercushions Score : 265 points Date : 2022-11-01 15:45 UTC (7 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com) | zokier wrote: | The frustrating aspect for me about CNSA is how little PR they | do, at least towards west although I don't think even inside | China they are giving that much extra info on the missions and | their progress. Just compare the media spectacle around e.g. | Perseverance rover wrt Tianwen-1. Sure NASA has more material to | work with but still we are getting frequent mission updates and | almost daily new pics to ogle; meanwhile there are just couple of | press photos from Zhurong and barely any news gets around. | bayesian_horse wrote: | 50 years late to the space race.. | Ekaros wrote: | They might be late to join, but when the rest of competition | have started racing towards start line... Does it matter. | vl wrote: | [LOGIN REQUIRED] | rongopo wrote: | A small step for China, a big step for humanity. | steve76 wrote: | ROTMetro wrote: | garmanarnar wrote: | Whataboutism | ROTMetro wrote: | How? I thought the topic was China and 'progress'? I didn't | 'whatabout' a different country and their actions to divert | from that topic, did I? But nice way to distract from | actually addressing what China brings to the modern world. | mensetmanusman wrote: | hunglee2 wrote: | couldn't agree more. Space is like therapy these days, earth | being what it is right now. lets hope we - as a species - can | get it together and truly explore what's out there, as | collaborators and colleagues | jedberg wrote: | I agree with you but I suspect you're blaming the wrong nation. | China built their own station because the USA won't allow them | to join ISS. | dQw4w9WgXcQ wrote: | The USA requiring China to invent something on their own | rather than Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V the USA's work is helping them | grow up. It's a long-term win-win. We don't "blame" parents | for asking their children to grow up into independent adults, | nor should countries enable codependent behavior. | daemoens wrote: | Ok, it doesn't change the fact that since 2011, Congress | has forbid NASA from working with and Chinese | government/organization without explicit approval from the | FBI and Congress. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Amendment | [deleted] | dang wrote: | I'm sure you didn't mean to, but your comment was nationalistic | flamebait that predictably set off a nationalistic flamewar. | Please don't do that. From | https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html: | | " _Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents._ " | RobRivera wrote: | the space race sent us to the moon. I'm grateful for the | progress we have made and am eager to contribute my bit to the | future | fuoqi wrote: | Are you implying that Chinese nationalism prevents the | collaboration? Look into why China is not part of ISS, despite | its desire to join. Spoiler: the US has blocked it. It's a | small miracle that Russia is part of ISS, not in small part | because the US wanted to get cheap access to the Soviet Mir- | based technology and expertise. | ARandomerDude wrote: | hulitu wrote: | If you are talking about yankee nationalism, you are right. | rvba wrote: | Can you go to China and travel freely? Can you even own a | business there as a foreigner? How many foreigners received a | citizenship? | CyanBird wrote: | You are not entitled to rights or privileges in a country | you are not part of. For example I wish the US and the UK | would stop spying on me with their dragnet, but alas I am | not a US citizen so I am not privileged to be protected by | their own laws | wellthisisgreat wrote: | Nationalism, any forms of it are evil. There is no "benign | nationalism" that is just people being proud for their country | or whatever. It all leads to sorrow and, ultimately, | destruction. Paraphrasing Voltaire, we should squash it. It is | not beneficial and people can absolutely "reach for the stars" | in all senses of it without nationalism. The only thing | nationalism, in any form, moderate or extreme, is good for is | for a small group of people (government, etc.) controlling a | larger group of people (country's population) by irrational | means. | | Unfortunately, we won't see anti-nationalism coming to the same | level as atheism even in our lifetimes. When I express this | kind of view even the more liberal people in my circle say this | is too extreme. | | I am not advocating for any kind of anarchism, or saying | government is bad. Nationalism is. | pphysch wrote: | > Unfortunately, we won't see anti-nationalism coming to the | same level as atheism even in our lifetimes. | | Neoliberalism is clearly anti-nationalism, and it's been the | dominant ideology for at least 3 decades. Neoliberalism seeks | to eradicate borders, weaken states, and empower | transnational corporations to privatize and exploit the | resources of once-sovereign countries. | | There's been a "war on nations" since WW2 and the rise of the | superpowers, and only in the last decade has the tide started | to turn. | | A key fact is that Reagan was not a nationalist, he was an | anti-nationalist that used purely performative, aesthetic | nationalism to disguise neoliberal policies. | miguelazo wrote: | Yes, neoliberalism's failed economic model has set anti- | nationalism back at least half a century. It threatens | people's livelihoods by directly inhibiting the state's | ability to improve the majority of their citizens' lives. | Until the economic model is shifted, nationalism will | continue to be seen as the antidote to neoliberalism, | unfortunately. Neoliberalism and US hegemony are two sides | of the same coin, so both of them are the biggest threat to | human collaboration across borders. | pphysch wrote: | WW2 was a war of expanding genocidal _empires_ , | including USA. I'm not sure what basis in reality this | "nationalism is evil" trope comes from. | | It happens to villianize non-interventionist nations like | Cuba while excusing the enormous crimes of transnational | neoliberalism. | Ekaros wrote: | Wouldn't that mean that it doesn't matter which nation is | controlling piece of land you live on? So no point really | fighting against invasions. | ARandomerDude wrote: | Hypothetical Nation A allows democratic freedom of expression | and respects human rights. Hypothetical Nation B has a | tyrannical government that censors and imprisons anyone who | questions it and constantly violates the rights of its | people. | | Nation A and Nation B go to war. Do you care who wins? If you | don't care, there's something wrong with you. If you do care, | people will accuse of being a nationalist. | | At the end of the day we need to distinguish between racism | and nationalism. Some nations are simply better places to | live than others. | [deleted] | hulitu wrote: | > Hypothetical Nation A allows democratic freedom of | expression and respects human rights. Hypothetical Nation B | has a tyrannical government that censors and imprisons | anyone who questions it and constantly violates the rights | of its people. | | Both countries are, as you said, Hypothetical. | | > Some nations are simply better places to live than others | | Depends on the definition of "better". | vasco wrote: | I have the same feeling. Most people are quick to be anti | nationalist shenanigans but then are quicker to defend things | like "keep jobs for <insert nationality>" type rhetoric as if | the people who are taking those jobs aren't humans of equal | worth. | | I wish we'd just get done with it but I have the same sadness | that it's going to take a few more hundred years at least. | edm0nd wrote: | I think nationalism is just fine. Its okay to love your | country and fellow citizens. | | It's when it turns to extremism that it gets ugly and bad. | wellthisisgreat wrote: | The problem with "love your country and fellow citizens" is | that even the most benign form of it becomes "my country | and fellow citizens are better than everybody else". | | That's a great sentiment to have about your family maybe | but not about an abstract concept, as it becomes as evil as | religion and any similar instance. | Steltek wrote: | I typically define that as "patriotism". In other words, | patriotism is loving your country and wanting to make it | better. Nationalism is loving your country and thinking | it's better than all the others. | TOMDM wrote: | https://archive.ph/2bXGR | csdvrx wrote: | Now let's hope it will inspire more countries, or even companies, | to launch their own! | bayesian_horse wrote: | I'd prefer countries to cooperate more. There's no need to have | dozens of national space stations or even launch systems. Some | diversity is Ok, but it's just too damn expensive. | A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: | I think that was the hope for ISS in general with the | rationale being that the cost would be just too expensive for | any one country to bear. And ISS, not completely unlike the | globalization and connections between countries would force | some modicum of cooperation. | | I think we were way too optimistic about ourselves as a | species. Our cooperation does not last long. | pharke wrote: | It'll remain expensive if only countries are launching | things. If commercial space launches continue to pick up | steam it will get cheaper. | nordsieck wrote: | > I'd prefer countries to cooperate more. There's no need to | have dozens of national space stations or even launch | systems. Some diversity is Ok, but it's just too damn | expensive. | | The reason the Ariane (rocket) program exists is because the | US put restrictions on European satellites if they wanted to | launch on US rockets. | | I'm all for cooperation, but often times you need a strong | alternative in order to negotiate effectively. | 77pt77 wrote: | Perfidious Albion 2.0 | peter303 wrote: | Like parts of the ISS will be privatized after 2030. Could form | parts of new space stations. | holoduke wrote: | Maybe I am completely wrong. But whenever I see a US space launch | I wonder if the Chinese do have the same enthusiasm and | cooperation efficiency across all staff. In the US you see people | from all ranks being super happy. Talking to each other etc. | During a Chinese launch I see super strict hierarchy. People | looking damn serious. How can you ever succeed without having | motivated , out of the box thinking people. I can't believe the | moral and attitude of the Chinese can ever lead to something | remotely competitive to what the US is doing. Maybe I am wrong. | burkaman wrote: | Does completing a space station not count as success? Also, | here's a video of this launch, people look pretty happy to be | honest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xcgT93s08o | SkyMarshal wrote: | You can't really judge other cultures by their outward | happiness. That's really just a US thing. I think what it all | comes down to is the probabilistic numbers game - how many | clever people do you have hacking at various problems. Some % | will succeed, and the larger the population the more results | will emerge from it. That's China's fundamental advantage. They | can still fuck it up though with poor political structure, as | they did for several hundred years up until the 2000s, and may | yet revert to under Xi Jinping. But they'll have to _really_ | screw things up to lose the numbers game. | jorgesborges wrote: | Last week I stood outside my apartment and watched Tiangong fly | across the sky[0]. What an incredible time to be alive. | | [0] https://james.darpinian.com/satellites/ | peter303 wrote: | Tiangoon flybys can reaches magnitude -2 now. Bright than most | planets. Next bright evening flybys overUS in early December. | | The ISS, which has five times more modules, reaches magnitude | -4 sometimes. Third brightest thing in sky. | modeless wrote: | For clarity, #1 is the Sun and #2 is the Moon. ISS is | brighter than literally everything else in space, including | all the other stars and planets. | JonathonW wrote: | ISS isn't _always_ brighter than Venus, which can get | almost to magnitude -5 when things line up right. | | The ISS will still generally be the first, second, or third | brightest thing in the night sky on a good, near-overhead | pass. | huhtenberg wrote: | The page sits at "Loading" and the console shows "Uncaught (in | promise) TypeError: navigator.geolocation is undefined". | Yiin wrote: | Your browser needs to support sharing geolocation. | jason-phillips wrote: | No, it does not. | | An uncaught error where you don't catch and gracefully | handle errors in your promises is not the users' fault. | It's sloppy workmanship. | david422 wrote: | Maybe you should email the site and let them know instead | of complaining on some random forum? | jdbernard wrote: | I'm sure they'd be happy to give you a refund. :) | jason-phillips wrote: | The point is not that one makes available one's site for | free. The point is that the quality of the work is | sloppy, price of said service notwithstanding. | | There are many other ways to approximate a client's | geolocation so as to prevent displaying an embarrassing | error where one did not first check whether the object's | property was truthy or not. | | Justifying terrible UX by saying, "it's free," is a | terrible strategy, tbh. Free shit is still shit. | thedragonline wrote: | Uh, then don't use it? Problem solved methinks. | mbostleman wrote: | But, all moral posturing notwithstanding, is it not also | true that if the OP just gets a browser or a browser | version or a browser configuration that supports | geolocation that they will be back in business? | shadowgovt wrote: | It's not just that the key isn't populated; it's that | it's undefined. FWIW, my browser (Chrome) works on the | site even if I choose not to share geolocation; I assume | because the API is populated even if it then refrains | from sharing. | | Your point isn't quite wrong but it also isn't quite | right; geolocation is supported by every browser listed | on Mozilla's documentation | (https://developer.mozilla.org/en- | US/docs/Web/API/Navigator/g...) so if a browser isn't at | least stubbing out that API these days, it's not | w3c-compliant, and non-w3c-compliant browsers will | sometimes just break on some pages. | | It is, of course, still incumbent on the developer to go | that extra mile if they want to catch that last 1% of | users, but users of exotic browsers get an exotic | experience also. | jason-phillips wrote: | None of the browsers on my iPhone will render this site, | W3C compliant or not. | | In any event, I would never tell my users that it's their | fault that my app didn't check the truthiness of the | object's property. Seems particularly hostile to one's | users and customers, free product or not. | shadowgovt wrote: | Ever written a website that checks whether `window` is | defined? | | Technically, we should be checking _everything_. | | Practically, nobody does. | robocat wrote: | FYI: renders on iPad with iPadOS 16.1 (iPad so no GPS). | Either way, you are coming across to me as somewhat | petulant - you could be right but politeness has its | place too. | [deleted] | 8note wrote: | That's a monopoly problem, no? Apple doesn't actually let | you use different browsers. You should try it on an | android phone? | ipaddr wrote: | On my time which is worth $/per hour? That will be the | day. | modeless wrote: | If you get this error, you intentionally broke your | browser, or are using a browser which doesn't support | standard, essential functionality. This is _not_ the same | thing as declining or blocking geolocation permission, | which _is_ supported and does not cause errors. | | This specific error means you deleted the standard | functions that implement the geolocation API, which is a | completely different thing. That's fine too, you're | welcome to browse the web with a broken configuration, | but you have to realize that it will break things. You're | not automatically entitled to request that every site | support your broken configuration. It should also be | noted that browsing with a non-default configuration like | this makes you an easy target for fingerprinting. | | Note that the site absolutely requires some form of | geolocation to work at all. Satellite viewing times are | location specific and without a precise location the site | can't show you anything useful. | jason-phillips wrote: | > This specific error means you deleted the standard | functions that implement the geolocation API | | That's a rather flimsy straw man. I did no such thing. | | > You're not automatically entitled to request that every | site support your broken configuration. | | Goodness, now I'm entitled. | | I did no such thing; I just said that blaming your users | for your sloppy coding is a terrible strategy. | modeless wrote: | You say you're using iOS Safari. I'm interested to know | how you were able to configure it to delete | navigator.geolocation, apparently without realizing what | you were doing. I don't plan to support a broken | configuration like that, but if you can figure out the | cause then I could file a WebKit bug on your behalf. | kortilla wrote: | Why would it be on OP's behalf? If it's just a | configuration that WebKit supports it's either violating | the standard or you're not handling it correctly on your | site. It has nothing to do with the OP at that point. | modeless wrote: | They are the one experiencing the bug. I can't file the | bug because I don't know and can't investigate the cause. | If they are experiencing an issue, and they find the | cause, they should file the bug. But they probably won't | bother, seeing as they'd rather blame me. I'm willing to | file it for them, and that's probably better anyway as I | have WebKit committer status. Bugs filed by me may have | more weight as I have filed and fixed many before. | ipaddr wrote: | You really should be checking if the location object | exists. Pushing the blame to another project is | deflecting from a missing check that should happen on | your end. | modeless wrote: | Regardless of whether you agree with what I'm doing, you | should agree that WebKit should not delete | navigator.geolocation in any configuration. It's a clear | fingerprinting issue. | xattt wrote: | > Note that the site absolutely requires some form of | geolocation to work at all. | | You should be able to specify a viewing location if | geolocation is blocked. | modeless wrote: | > This is not the same thing as declining or blocking | geolocation permission, which is supported and does not | cause errors. | agambrahma wrote: | This is a fantastic website, thank you to whoever made it !! | gorkish wrote: | I concur! The street view is brilliant. | Victerius wrote: | I hope mankind can move beyond building space stations as a | handful of modular small cylinders, and start building space | stations the way they appear in science fiction: dozens of rooms, | cubical exteriors, hallways, human height doors that open and | close, stairs, elevators, hangars, a nuclear reactor instead of | solar panels, and modules that rotate around an axis to create | artificial gravity. And a more diversified color scheme than all | white, which is sterile. | | I would like to see this: | | https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/futuristic-architecture... | | https://t3.ftcdn.net/jpg/04/77/75/80/360_F_477758033_1n2FBtz... | dmitriy_ko wrote: | It will happen after AGI singularity. | elil17 wrote: | We need a reason to do it first. | Victerius wrote: | More habitable space, more luxurious accommodations, more | energy generating capacity, more space for laboratory | equipment and experiments. | systemvoltage wrote: | Here in SF, we have cars with bumper stickers that say | "Leave space alone". | | So it starts, the birth of space environmentalists. | giraffe_lady wrote: | More habitable space than the ground? Maybe some day but | that would be a grim future indeed. | bnralt wrote: | You should check out videos from inside Skylab if you | haven't[1]. You can see people jogging around the perimeter | like in 2001. It was so big that they worried that people who | ended up in the middle would get stuck and have a hard time | getting back to the walls. | | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZNKVnDvQY4&t=250s | stickfigure wrote: | To stay within the protection of Earth's magnetosphere, | habitable stations are put in low earth orbit. Low earth orbit | entails atmospheric drag, and bigger stations have more drag as | well as larger propellent requirements to boost. | vasco wrote: | Even if the cost to launch would be way cheaper, that weigth | allowance would be used for useful stuff like laundry machines, | more "sterile" modules as you call them for more research, and | potentially for industrial applications like factories to build | low-gravity-only components and low gravity biomedical | applications. | | Your vision is useful for tourism and little else. | outworlder wrote: | That requires a truly astounding amount of material. Unless the | cost to place it in orbit gets within an order of magnitude of | our current terrestrial freight, it's not happening. | | Best bet is to construct these things in orbit, with materials | sourced in orbit. But now you have a chicken and egg problem - | need to send an incredible amount of material (and people) in | order to (potentially!) save in the future. | Victerius wrote: | kingkawn wrote: | you're so excited to destroy peoples lives and end the | existence of species, and yet you think you represent the | future... | diskzero wrote: | Space stations and exploration can be a difficult | proposition to justify to any economic system; democratic, | socialist, communist, etc. For China to want to "beat" us, | building bigger and better space stations would somehow | have to align with the current and future five year plans. | | I would rather have China and the US pouring tons of money | into space stations and exploration, but it is hard to | figure out the rationale for such a massive investment. | China seems to make rational decisions, those of which I am | not defending. I am trying to figure out how rational a | $500 billion dollar investment in a space station would be | to Chinese interests. | throwaway894345 wrote: | The space race was motivated by competition with Russia, | notably the imperative to establish a tactical nuclear | advantage. We could conceivably see another space race | between the US and China, but maybe not if "space" | doesn't have the same tactical appeal? | diskzero wrote: | I suppose it could lead to a race to build a new | generation of heavy lift vehicles or other propulsion | systems. Maybe a return to the NERVA[1] engine! That | technology was an interesting story point in the "For All | Mankind" series alternative timeline. | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NERVA | counttheforks wrote: | What happened to the US space force? I expected the US to | have nukesats in orbit by now. Or maybe they do? | throwaway894345 wrote: | Presumably everyone already has access to enough nukes | such that there isn't much of a point in investing in | nukes, whether terrestrial or satellite? The arms race | might lead toward building more, better interceptors? | TremendousJudge wrote: | I think you're seriously overestimating Chinese economic | capabilities. They are still constrained by the same | economic realities as everybody else, and -- much as we | wish it were possible -- they cannot afford to just _do | whatever_. | buscoquadnary wrote: | "You can accomplish anything when you have vision, | determination and an endless supply of expendable labor" | detritus wrote: | Presumably the problem there is that even a sea of | expendable labour's useless, if what you need is a Von | Braun[1]-esque figure and a paddling pool of engineering | talent... . | | [1] Korolev, Musk, &c. | post-it wrote: | The type of labour needed to build a space station isn't | expendable. | oneoff786 wrote: | You're afraid china will beat the us to aesthetic space | stations? | Victerius wrote: | I want a country to make one. Any country. I would gladly | pay for a ticket for a week long stay on an aesthetic | space station. You have no idea how badly I want to live | in the kind of futuristic future depicted in science | fiction. | TremendousJudge wrote: | You'd like to live in a world similar to Blade Runner or | Neuromancer? That doesn't seem pleasant at all to me. | oneoff786 wrote: | > I would gladly pay for a ticket for a week long stay on | an aesthetic space station. | | How much would you pay? Because the capital cost of | building it was hand wavey thrown out as $500B and the | operating costs of facility would be exorbitant. | | What do you imagine doing? | Victerius wrote: | Staring out the observation bay for hours on end with my | favorite mood music playing through my headphones. Then | going for a spacewalk, before heading back inside and | having dinner with my friends in the rotating orbital | restaurant. After that, I'll play an online video games | with Earth-based players. To conclude my day, I'll return | to my luxury pod, lay on the side in bed while looking | outside at the planet through the port window, a mere | inches from my face, and let my dreams, and the low humm | of the station's machinery, take me to sleep. | renewiltord wrote: | Your best bet is VR. | mschuster91 wrote: | > Because the capital cost of building it was hand wavey | thrown out as $500B and the operating costs of facility | would be exorbitant. | | Yeah, estimated using the inflated cost of the ISS and | other historic projects... give a tenth of the money to a | private company _not_ bound to political pork interest | like NASA /ESA and they'll manage it just fine. | Alternatively, give NASA/ESA free rein to do things the | _efficient_ way. | | The problem at the root is that, historically, space | access never was a plain "we need task X accomplished" - | there _always_ was the political interest of those with | decision power to spread R &D and construction far across | the country, so that everyone got a little piece (and | every politician could claim of having brought jobs to | their voters). That caused enormous inefficiencies - | stuff needs to be shipped three times across the | continent (look at Airbus supply chain, it's insane), | there's an enormous amount of red tape and coordination | efforts required, and turnaround times are insane. | Meanwhile SpaceX has like two manufacturing plants and | four launch sites and especially they manufacture a lot | of what they need completely on their own so they don't | have the typical delays you have with a classic vendor- | supplier relationship, _and_ they save on profit margins | of all the intermediates as well. | bityard wrote: | Beltalowda! | riffic wrote: | form follows function though. | JohnJamesRambo wrote: | Unfortunately it's about $2,720 per 2.2 lbs in even the best | case scenario. | erik wrote: | SpaceX aims to reduce that by two orders of magnitude with | Starship. It will be a big deal if they can achieve it. | edm0nd wrote: | TIL for about ~$3,090, I could send a 40oz of Old English to | space. | jotm wrote: | As long as it's set on a collision course with the Sun. | Although I'm not sure the latter would survive. | Fatnino wrote: | You are allowed to say kilogram on the internet. | tomrod wrote: | You're also allowed to say 2.2 pounds, and many (though not | most) will understand. | | You're even allowed to be a pedant, as I am often accused! | :) | poooogles wrote: | How have you come up with this number? | JohnJamesRambo wrote: | >For a SpaceX Falcon 9, the rocket used to access the ISS, | the cost is just $2,720 per kilogram. | | https://theconversation.com/how-spacex-lowered-costs-and- | red... | aerophilic wrote: | While I too look forward to that day, at least for awhile | longer due to physics, we are going to continue to have | "rounded cylinders". The main reason for this is very simple: | Pressurized vessels. If you look at any type of air tank, and | there is a reason they are a certain shape. The moment you do | any type of "point" or "edge" it becomes a weak point in the | design. | | That said... you can always make a really large pressure vessel | and put things inside... | pavlov wrote: | A torus shape has no sharp edges and can be pretty useful in | space if it rotates. | aerophilic wrote: | Absolutely, but now you are talking pretty large | structures... which will take time for us to get there. | choonway wrote: | from a mechanical engineering standpoint, a torus is also | easier to construct than a sphere. | baybal2 wrote: | It's extremely hard to join large structures airtight, with | joints being stronger than the material itself. | | Soviet, and Russian spacecraft, and modules were traditionally | made with extremely uneconomical method of machining the vessel | from a single giant piece of aluminium to not to worry about | joints, and their strength under space conditions. | choonway wrote: | The difficulty is not about joining large structures | airtight. otherwise we would have trouble with building | commercial aircraft. | | the problem is when you want to make something out from the | absolute minimim weight possible due to economy of putting | things into space, then you can't do with any connections | whatsoever. | | The pressure of -1 bar isn't particularly challenging | engineering wise. | wainstead wrote: | I think this company is highly optimistic, but this might fit | the bill: | | https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/space-hotel-orbital-assem... | yoz-y wrote: | It's a scam ran by an ex airline pilot with no engineering | experience whatsoever. https://youtu.be/lue35X4DFeQ | Diederich wrote: | Some more recent launch providers are focusing on greatly | lowering $/kg to orbit, which is an absolutely necessary step | for such visions. | RobotToaster wrote: | That will probably require finding an efficient way to extract | building materials in space (possibly from the moon), moving | those materials to where you want your station (probably a | Lagrange point), and building with those materials. These are | non-trivial problems. | | Also solar is far more efficient in space, without any annoying | atmosphere in the way, it makes perfect sense to use it there. | nonethewiser wrote: | Hopefully they solve more important problems first though. | ch4s3 wrote: | Isn't this a logical fallacy? Rocket scientists and engineers | are going to best suited to getting stuff into orbit, they | aren't simply going to be able to go a solve a "more | important problem". Other people are already working on those | things and are likely specialists. | ElevenLathe wrote: | It's true in a way but just pushes things back a level of | causality: if we train more people as aerospace engineers, | then we will have fewer trained people in other | specialties. We have a finite supply of enthusiastic, smart | young people to drive change. The best answer of course is | "do both" and make sure more of our young people are happy, | enthusiastic, and able to access necessary training and | education. | | There are also skills that overlap: every welder that | SpaceX or Lockheed employs is one less welder able to help | install a water treatment plant somewhere. Here again, the | solution is to train more welders. | ch4s3 wrote: | > if we train | | People choose those paths on their own, not because some | human industrial policy plucked them out of middle school | and put them on that path. | vbezhenar wrote: | stefan_ wrote: | Why, there is already barely anything useful to do with the | current crop of space stations. | grubbs wrote: | Uhmmm...at least we get to find out how spiders spin a web in | zero-g. | frozenport wrote: | If only we could put down our differences and use the Flat UI | color scheme. | wazoox wrote: | For some pictures check | | https://english.news.cn/20221101/9c24720a1d7e4a71ac112a69572... | shortstuffsushi wrote: | Wait, in order to build this, they've launched half a dozen | rockets up with no idea where the boosters would come back down | and land? That seems up there amongst worst ideas I've heard for | a while, "good luck everybody else." | | Edit: didn't realize this would be a controversial comment; per | the article, the "norm" is to have a burn again after releasing | their payload, to "control" / direct the return. The Chinese | aren't doing that, which has apparently lead so far to a village- | damaging crash in the Ivory Coast. If the US has done a similar | thing, if this was common practice in the past, I'm not familiar | with it as I'm entirely naive on the topic. | VictorPath wrote: | Can you tell me what country does not launch their rockets in | this manner, other than in test flights? | dotnet00 wrote: | These days the standard behavior of other nations is to keep | enough reserve fuel and power to perform a controlled reentry | of any spent stages or to design the vehicles such that the | part that reaches orbit is small. | shortstuffsushi wrote: | Per the article | | > Typically, the core stages of similar rockets that reach | orbit fire their engines again after releasing their | payloads. That allows them to be aimed at unpopulated areas, | like the middle of an ocean, when they fall from orbit. | | If this is not accurate, my mistake. I took them at their | word and don't really know anything more than that about the | process. | [deleted] | wmf wrote: | They don't have _no idea_. They know the boosters won 't land | on any Party members. Russia has set decades of precedent by | not caring if their space trash lands on nomads. | avmich wrote: | > Russia has set decades of precedent by not caring if their | space trash lands on nomads. | | But still paying if something happens. | jessriedel wrote: | Each launch costs hundreds of millions of dollars. The cost of | bringing the rocket down in a targeted way can be substantial, | in terms of R&D, fuel, and mission constraints. And the risk is | absolutely minuscule: Exactly one person has ever been hit by | orbital rocket debris after _tens of thousands_ of launches | over more than half a century, and it was a tiny piece (which | is usually all that survives re-entry) that didn 't cause | injury: | | https://theconversation.com/space-debris-is-coming-down-more... | | And of course, the launching nation is responsible for | compensating anyone injured or who has property damaged by | space debris, and paying for clean-up. | [deleted] | lizardactivist wrote: | Very impressive! I didn't even know they were working on this. | rossdavidh wrote: | Have we actually had the announcement that Russia is going to | switch from sending cosmonauts to the ISS to sending them to | China's instead? Or is that just kind of assumed, without | announcement? | twelve40 wrote: | assumed? Where did you even get this idea? China's station has | never been discussed in this context, and the current plan is | to continue flying to ISS as is until '27 inclusive, then | launch a new one. | diskzero wrote: | Does anyone know to what extent China has advanced the state of | the Soviet technology that they have (I assume) licensed? I have | been to the Russian Star City training facility, Baikonur | Cosmodrome and been in the full-size Mir training module and the | Chinese station components look very similar. I am sure getting | good information is difficult, but perhaps someone here has some | more info. | bayesian_horse wrote: | "Licensing" is a strong word when applied to China. I'm pretty | sure they have advanced a lot and may have surpassed Russian | technology in some areas. As far as I understand it, they have | more diverse launch vehicles, for example. Hard to compare what | constitutes "better", as long as it works. I don't think they | are as cost-efficient as SpaceX or even Atlas and Ariane | systems. | nordsieck wrote: | > I don't think they are as cost-efficient as SpaceX or even | Atlas and Ariane systems. | | It seems unlikely anyone is as cost-efficient as Falcon 9 | with reuse. | | It appears to me, as an outsider, that Atlas and Ariane are | 4-5 times as expensive to operate. There is probably plenty | of room for China to operate more efficiently than that. | Especially with their launch volume, which is second only to | SpaceX. | monocasa wrote: | I can't speak at all to the space station, but my understanding | from discussions over beers with American spacecraft MechEs was | that Shenzhou resembles Soyuz (and is derived form Soyuz in | real ways), but is noticeably larger. This has a significant | amount of effects to essentially every aspect of the design | making it pretty damn close to a fully indigenous design. They | would've had to truly own every piece of the design and | manufacturing to make those changes and end up with the flight | safety record they currently hold. | dr-detroit wrote: | russli1993 wrote: | Some of the features I know from the Chinese space station | | - Solar panels smaller in area than ISS but produces similar | amount of power, indicating much more efficient solar panels | | - Ion thrusters to keep space in orbit | | - Automated docking of cargo and crew capsule. Semi-automated | docking of large station components like the 23ton labs | | - A robotic arm similar to ISS that walk along the joint points | on the station. It has expandable attachment system, allowing | not only astronauts to attach, but also a smaller more precises | robotic arm to attach that can manipulate external experiments. | | - It has a crew airlock and a cargo airlock, the cargo one is | larger than the one on ISS. | | - It can also release small satellites through the cargo | airlock. | | - Dozens of external experiment attachment points, some (maybe | all) has power and control | | - What looks like pretty good communication links with the | ground. Experiments can be controlled and monitored from the | ground, saving astronaut time. | | - What looks like some advanced experiment equipment, including | three very accurate atomic clocks, near absolute zero cooling | systems etc. But I am not well versed in physics to speak on | these. | | - It will operate a space telescope; telescope can dock with | the station for servicing and upgrades, and equipment uploaded | by regular space station cargo ship. | | I think it is a well-designed system, surprisingly capable in | terms of research capabilities. As China's space industry is | completely sanctioned by US and Wassenaar Arrangement, all | technology here are from Chinese industries and local supply | chains: materials, precision manufacturing, communication | equipment, sensors used for guidance/automated docking, robotic | arm, ion thrusters, solar panels, networking and control system | within the station, even to the logistic system of building, | launching and running the station. Then there is the whole | rocket system themselves, 100% success rate thus far with | CZ-5/B, CZ-7 cargo ship, and Shenzhou launch vehicle. And then | the global positioning and communications satellite network. | And then there is the whole research equipment part. There are | millions+ ppl involved in all of the projects here. | Grimburger wrote: | > It will operate a space telescope; telescope can dock with | the station for servicing and upgrades, and equipment | uploaded by regular space station cargo ship. | | The co-orbit strategy is excellent, a short trip for repairs | and easy to fit into existing schedules if something goes | wrong. It's no James Webb but was never intended to be, about | the same size as Hubble but with 400x the field of view. | Guessing it will be cranking out the discoveries. | tunesmith wrote: | "sanction" is one of the dumbest words on earth. "to give | official approval" vs "impose a penalty". | diskzero wrote: | Thanks for the super informative reply. I am hoping as there | is more activity on the space station, that more information | will be coming out. It would be nice to be able to see | something similar to the ESA, NASA and even Roscosmos launch | feeds and Q&A sessions. | Jayab wrote: | So then maybe a little late to sanction their tech to keep | them from being peer competitors. | kortilla wrote: | The sanctions are pretty irrelevant when China has one of | the best hacking groups in the world and every US | corporation of relevance is strongly connected to the | Internet. | bestouff wrote: | Yeah, because they are only this advanced because they | stole US technology. Chinese people can't be as | intelligent as american. | bpodgursky wrote: | Eh, unclear. Nobody was trying to stop China from building | space stations. The goal was to limit jet and ICBM tech. | thebooktocome wrote: | Sanctions didn't stop China from carrying out one of the | most successful research and technology exfiltration | campaigns in history. | noizejoy wrote: | Kind of ironic? | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip | NegativeLatency wrote: | Also the guy who memorized how to build a power loom | during the industrial revolution | | https://www.history.com/news/industrial-revolution-spies- | eur... | mattnewton wrote: | I don't see irony; the US government knew the importance | of these efforts first hand which is why they attempted | the sanction at all. | thebooktocome wrote: | I assume I'm getting downvoted in the parent because | there's some implication that I'm judging them for it? | | But I'm not. I was simply saying that the sanctions have | nothing to do with their ability to obtain western tech. | m4jor wrote: | Sanctions do not matter to China. They will just have their | nation state backed hackers hack into aerospace and defense | contractors and steal their R&D instead. Thats the Chinese | way and MO. Anything to further the Chinese economy. | | They have hacked nearly every F100 they needed to and steal | hundreds of billions in IP annually already. | | - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual | _pr... | | - https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/09/china-state-backed- | hackers-c... | | - https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/02/politics/china-hacking- | espion... | russli1993 wrote: | US did sanction all of China's space industry, defense dual | use industries since the 1990s, and never let go ever | since. That is pretty early. And this is what happens 30 | years since the sanctions. But I have no idea what will | happen in the future, plus the nature of industry and | technology is also different. | ethbr0 wrote: | As much as it's a waste of duplicate effort, it's likely | good for humanity and geopolitics to have multiple | nation-states each trying their own approaches. | | Avoids path lock-in by exploring alternate solutions | lines, and ensures that if one country decides to slow | down (because politics) then the world doesn't lose its | only leading-edge space program. | | Healthy competition for the betterment of all! | skybrian wrote: | That's way too broad, because it depends what it is. | Surprisingly, it seems to be easier to build a space | station than to compete with Boeing and Airbus. | Dig1t wrote: | Very cool, so are there any particularly interesting science | experiments that they plan on doing with it? ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-11-01 23:00 UTC)