[HN Gopher] NASA finds super-emitters of methane ___________________________________________________________________ NASA finds super-emitters of methane Author : walterbell Score : 195 points Date : 2022-11-01 20:38 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.smithsonianmag.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.smithsonianmag.com) | idiotsecant wrote: | Another example of why we need the 'regulation' that is so | demonized. | stetrain wrote: | Hmm but if we make businesses do something that is not the most | short-term profitable choice, then the shareholders may not be | able to extract maximum value! | ch4s3 wrote: | This isn't a very good take. Business leaders are generally | fine with reasonable regulations that are evenly applied and | easy to comply with. The operations out there spewing methane | are essentially free riding, and their competitors who don't | do that probably want better enforcement. Obviously this | isn't universally applicable to all conceivable regulations, | but its true enough in this case. | ohbtvz wrote: | I personally don't care in any way about what business | leaders are comfortable with. Our planet is burning. They | should be uncomfortable. | ch4s3 wrote: | My point is that businesses aren't even necessarily | against this kind of regulation. The reality is that | controlling methane requires a lot of unsexy | followthrough and monitoring, and international deal | making. This is a political failure. | rootusrootus wrote: | We need it at the worldwide level, which is especially | difficult. | themitigating wrote: | Not if you use force | cowtools wrote: | it is strictly impossible to establish a one-world | government through force, at least given our current | technology. | | If a country has the army of robots needed to make it | happen, then you have two problems. | steve_taylor wrote: | It's impossible to establish a one-world government | without force. | lazide wrote: | Good luck doing that on renewables and positive vibes! | themitigating wrote: | We can sacrifice for the greater good. | lazide wrote: | That 'we' sure is carrying a lot of weight. From the | context of this thread, it seems likely most of the | sacrifice would be from folks in Turkmenistan, who would | be told to change at the point of a gun no? Likely | leading to a non trivial death count from violence or | starvation. | | I'm pretty sure you didn't ask them if they were Ok with | that sacrifice. | | To quote C.S. Lewis - " Of all tyrannies, a tyranny | exercised for the good of its victims may be the most | oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons | than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber | baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at | some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our | own good will torment us without end for they do so with | the approval of their own conscience. They may be more | likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to | make a Hell of earth." | themitigating wrote: | In a democracy the population is responsible for voting | in the government. | | In a dictatorship the population is responsible for not | overthrowing the government. | guelo wrote: | Instead of the geopolitically-driven western trade regime we | have today we should be basing trade relations on | environmental standards. | stetrain wrote: | Yes, but that shouldn't prevent us from implementing it where | we can first. | Alupis wrote: | Not if all your efforts are wasted because other nations | won't follow in-step or do not care. | | This isn't grade school were trying your hardest gets you | an 'A' for the day... in reality trying your hardest and | failing is still failure. | | The US could do all the magical things and net zero | emissions next year and it won't matter one bit. That's | just reality... without a globally concerted effort, it's | all just waste. | | But I realize there is a non-trivial amount of folks that | believe doing _something_ , _anything_ is better than | nothing - even if it is not logical and has no beneficial | outcome. | | Perhaps we should put those energies into productive means | of solving the problem instead of emotionally "feel-good" | solutions. Why does developing countries use dirty energy | production? What can we do to make it cheaper to use | renewables instead? Can we make biodegradable plastics more | attractive than traditional plastics? That's just | scratching the surface... | llsf wrote: | I would disagree, in this case, we have a combination of | 2 issues: | | 1. Climate change due to CO2/etc. emissions | | 2. Fossil fuel (oil/gas/coal) peak | | Even if we do not care about climate change, as fossil | fuel addicts, any decline of fossil fuel production would | be catastrophic for the world wide economy. | | So, in this race to avoid fossil fuel, the sooner you are | out of it, the more resilient you will be when pumping | oil/gas/coal would be too expensive. | | Capturing all those methane gas, if not for the climate, | but for usage is good for the national security. | hackerlight wrote: | Nirvana fallacy. Your efforts aren't wasted if others | don't follow suit. A partial solution is better than no | solution. At the least you're buying the world a few | extra years to figure it out. | | Also, being the leader makes it easier for other | countries to follow suit. Every country has a large bloc | of cynical reactionaries within their boarders pointing | their fingers and saying "why would we do anything if | other countries aren't?". If _you_ do things first, you | disarm that narrative that 's going on in other | countries, which makes it easier for their progressives | to get change done locally. | Alupis wrote: | The "problem" countries are not going to start setting up | wind farms just because the US can do it. These countries | are burning coal for a reason... it's exceedingly cheap. | | Make something else exceedingly cheap and they will use | it. Anything else is just a distraction and made to make | you feel good at night while not accomplishing anything | significant. | hackerlight wrote: | Firstly, many poor countries are doing some of that. Look | at China. They don't like being covered in smog all the | time and the respiratory problems that creates. | | Secondly, the cost curves are decreasing for a reason. | It's because of investment in these technologies by | richer countries. The richer countries pave the way by | making the technology so cheap that it's irresistible and | a better deal to poor countries. The way you make it | cheap is by funding the transition yourself. The cost | decreases naturally follow as part of R&D. | | Thirdly, rich countries _should_ subsidize the energy | transition of poor countries. They 've emitted much more | than poor countries per capita since the Industrial | Revolution, so a de-facto retroactive carbon tax to fund | poor countries' transition on an expedited timeline is | only fair. | Alupis wrote: | > Firstly, many poor countries are doing some of that. | Look at China. | | China is far from a poor country... by some measurements | they outpace even the US. | | > Secondly, the cost curves are decreasing for a reason | | This is true - however we also need to recognize the | technology is not ready today. It might be tomorrow, but | throwing everything out and going full-in on green tech | today is foolhardy. Some prominent states in the US | already struggle to keep electricity on year round... how | on earth can we expect new tech to not only do better but | be cheaper in that environment? What chance do developing | nations have if the wealthiest nations cannot solve this | already? | | > Thirdly, rich countries should subsidize the energy | transition of poor countries | | I agree on some level. However I do not agree with | pushing unproven technology just because it makes us feel | good day. That will just burn developing nations and make | them less likely to trust us next time we come up with | some amazing new solution to all their problems... | xmonkee wrote: | "The United States accounts for only about five percent | of global population, but is responsible for 30 percent | of global energy use and 28 percent of carbon emissions." | | https://www.eesi.org/articles/view/u.s.-leads-in- | greenhouse-... | stetrain wrote: | Well if the options are: | | 1) Try to improve what we can and hope others follow. | Outcomes are either a global improvement in emissions or | significant adverse climate effects. | | 2) Don't do that. Outcome is significant adverse climate | effects. | | What's the argument for choosing 2)? | | Okay we might be at an economic advantage for 20, maybe | 50 years? But then what? | | PS: I agree with your last statement. But I don't see how | reducing excess methane emissions prevents us from | pursuing those solutions as well. Nor would I categorize | that as an emotional "feel-good" solution. | anonymous_sorry wrote: | To me the obvious solution seems like it would be to | impose targeted tariffs on imports from countries that do | not act to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, alongside | taxes on domestic emissions. | | Does this happen? What are the difficulties with it? | Alupis wrote: | The countries producing majority of the world's emissions | are doing so because they are using the cheapest forms of | energy production available - not because they are evil | doers or something nefarious. | | The only way to convince these nations to "go green" is | to make green energy cheaper than the alternatives. | Tariffing goods from these nations will not have the | desired impact - the nation still needs cheap energy | production and will not stop just because the US made | their goods more expensive for it's own citizens. | anonymous_sorry wrote: | > The only way to convince these nations to "go green" is | to make green energy cheaper than the alternatives. | | Or make greenhouse gas emissions more expensive. | | So you set the tariffs proportionnal to the assessed | level of greenhouse gas emissions. Set them at a level | where governments are incentivised to act to reduce the | tariffs. | Alupis wrote: | The tariffs only hurt your own citizens. | | The nations that matter for emissions are not going to | care about US tariffs... | mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: | Of course it would matter. Just because it's not a | solution doesn't mean it wouldn't give the rest of the | world more time to follow suit. | | It's really scary to me how common this kind of false | dichotomous thinking has become. It's everywhere, in | politics especially. | throwawaylinux wrote: | If regulations make cleaner and more advanced industries | less competitive, pushing production to cheaper places with | less regulation and higher emissions intensity of | production, then that could actually increase CO2 output. | rootusrootus wrote: | Perhaps it should not, but it will. Who is going to accept | heavy regulation when their competition is not so | encumbered? | reillyse wrote: | Lots of countries do this. It just takes leadership. | Alupis wrote: | This sounds great and all, but there is no evidence thus | far to indicate any of the nations that actually matter | for climate emissions care one bit about your nation's | leadership. | reillyse wrote: | I'm not sure what nation you are referring to. I was also | not proposing my nation was the leader so I'm confused. | | I would say the the US is one of the largest polluters on | the planet and leadership in the US would change world | wide pollution levels. Leadership is just that, leading. | It's very easy for other countries to just point at the | US and say "they don't practice what they preach, why | should we do anything". And they are right. Why should | they do shit when the richest country in the world isn't | interested in changing their behavior. | Alupis wrote: | > I would say the the US is one of the largest polluters | on the planet and leadership in the US would change world | wide pollution levels | | You might be surprised if you look into this a bit. On a | Per Capita basis, the US is barely in the top 10. | | Regardless, developing nations are not burning coal and | petroleum because they hate the environment... they need | cheap energy production - which is currently a failure of | the green energy movement (ie. there is nothing cheap | about it, it's a luxury at the moment). | jiggyjace wrote: | 'Regulation' is not a solution for countries that do not answer | to the morals of the West, such as Turkmenistan, China, or | Russia. Regulation should be demonized, for many situations it | ends up being a hammer to a screw. | pstuart wrote: | There's always leading by example, as well as incentivizing | via aid. | | This is not to dismiss the challenge, just that we shouldn't | avoid hard problems just because they're hard. | themitigating wrote: | "Leading by example " having heard that in a long time I | believe it's called "virtue signaling " now. That should | tell you how well that would work | fragmede wrote: | If the haters had any virtue _to_ signal then they 'd | just do that instead. You hate the game not the player, | but that's just because you're* losing it. | | * you referrs to people that use that odious phrase. | idiotsecant wrote: | It's interesting how so much of what we used to consider | 'being a decent person' is now 'virtue signaling'. It's | the most cynical, worthless meme to come out of the last | 50 years and that's saying a lot. | [deleted] | mmaunder wrote: | Will be interesting to see how this capability unfolds. They've | proven this can be done using an instrument not even designed for | the task. A specialized instrument may be able to detect other | greenhouse emissions. Imagine the kind of high resolution | accountability that might be possible. But does the political | will exist in the US to expose ourselves that way? Our political | donors that way? Our country as one of the largest emitters? | ZeroGravitas wrote: | It's now possible for independant charities to do this: | | https://www.methanesat.org/ | mturmon wrote: | Such as this CO2 measurement, made from a dedicated instrument | for the last ~8 years: https://ocov2.jpl.nasa.gov/science/ | | It uses broadly the same technique as in OP -- spectroscopy to | detect the absorption of sunlight from the presence of that | particular chemical species. Because the above instrument was | designed for the purpose, it's much more accurate and able to | distinguish small variations in CO2, not "just" large plumes. | mturmon wrote: | Several questions ask to contextualize this measurement. | | Here's a highly-cited paper in _Nature_ (including some of the | researchers quoted in the OP) that describes how an earlier | survey of California methane emissions went: | | https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1720-3 | | If I remember right, the state of CA asked for this survey. It | was carried out by an instrument similar to that of the OP, but | airborne, not on ISS as in OP. | | California has standards for methane emissions (e.g., | https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/fact-sheets/oil-and-gas-met...) | that are now covering landfills and oil and gas infrastructure, | and dairies -- three of the largest categories of large emitters. | | (One effect of these regulations, that lay people may have | noticed, is trying to get food waste out of the landfill stream, | and into composting, so that it doesn't decay anaerobically and | produce methane. In LA, for example, the LADWP is test-driving a | program where food scraps - vegetables, but also meats and fats - | are diverted into green bins.) | | Strengthened regulations on methane emissions from oil and gas | infrastructure are part of this - I'm not saying the studies | motivated these regulations, just that they are all part of | policies heading in that direction. | | It is believed that large oil companies are aggressively selling | off oil pumps/fields to get out from under this responsibility. | (https://www.propublica.org/article/california-oil-wells-shel...) | | The ISS measurements in OP have covered (and will continue to | cover) a much broader area than the California airborne survey - | but with less spatial resolution - so presumably a broad survey | of mid-latitude super-emitters will be possible in the coming | months. | ryanhuff wrote: | My Orange County suburb recently mandated putting food waste | into a separate can. | tanto wrote: | > Together, the Turkmenistan sources release an estimated 111,000 | pounds of methane gas per hour | | If this is happening all the time, then the number of global | methane emissions due to human activity on this | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_emissions) Wikipedia page | can't be valid. | | Crazy how human negligence and greed might end humanity. | proee wrote: | From some Google Searches... | | 111,000 pounds of methane, multipled by factor of 80x, equal | around 388M tons of CO2. | | A car produces around 4.6 tons of C02 per year. So this makes | the emissions equal to about 84M cars driving around for a | year. Google says there are around 1.46 Billion cars in the | world. | | So this amount of greenhouse gas is around a 5.7% increase in | our overall car emissions. | | (edited based on feedback below) | ljf wrote: | Quoting here but; | | Methane has more than 80 times the warming power of carbon | dioxide over the first 20 years after it reaches the | atmosphere. Even though CO2 has a longer-lasting effect, | methane sets the pace for warming in the near term. At least | 25% of today's global warming is driven by methane from human | actions. | guelo wrote: | Also, the extra warming from methane can trigger | unrecoverable tipping points, such as melting ancient | glaciers and permafrost, whose effects will last for | thousands of years. | aeternum wrote: | The issue is that this methane is not being oxidized. Burning | the methane as it is released is an easy solve. Yes this | increases CO2 at the ratio your specify (~1ton Methane to | 2.75 CO2) but that is still much better than releasing it as | Methane gas. | | Methane gas in the atmosphere causes 80x the greenhouse | effect that CO2 causes. | tildef wrote: | Maybe I'm misreading something, but I don't understand the | discrepancy. According to the wiki article, human output is 363 | megatons/year. 111,000 lb/hr = 55.5 tons/hr = 0.5 | megatons/year. Still a lot though! | xwdv wrote: | If things get really bad and these things are deemed bad for the | planet, could a nation demand the facilities be shut down or else | be destroyed by military strike? | reillyse wrote: | This concept is so strange. I'm not sure what country you are | from, but I'm going to assume the US. Would you think it was OK | if another country destroyed something in America because they | thought it was damaging the environment. How about if they | tried to force you to change your ways because of the | environmental damage you were doing? Because guess what? The US | is seriously over represented in pollution. Destroying the US | might just solve the entire climate problem, I doubt that would | be palatable ? | RandallBrown wrote: | Neal Stephenson's latest novel sort of explores this idea. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Termination_Shock_(novel) | ZainRiz wrote: | Turkmenistan gas extraction company right now: | | "Gee, thanks for finding our leaks guys! You won't believe how | much money we were just leaking into the atmosphere there." | | </dreams> | possiblelion wrote: | So - looking at this it seems Turkmenistan [a repressive, North | Korea style dictatorship] is destroying our climate system at an | order of magnitude faster than anyone else. I'm well aware of the | legacy that Iraq/Afghanistan have left in terms of international | interventions into other countries; but if it is our common | future on the balance, shouldn't we do something? Something more | than just politely asking to stop? | jvanderbot wrote: | I've often imagined a dystopian future, hotter world where | bombs are dropped on unauthorized coal / cement plants to | prevent more sea level rise / super hurricanes, rendering those | with no other options into partisan stone-age tribes. | NegativeLatency wrote: | You might enjoy this book which features similar events: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ministry_for_the_Future | ZainRiz wrote: | Like offering to pay to fix the leaks in their gas pipeline? | | Prob way cheaper than invading the country | 1024core wrote: | > Prob way cheaper than invading the country | | But they have oil.... | Retric wrote: | It's a little over 1/1,000th of human released methane, so on | it's own not that critical or that far above expectations for a | country with a little over 1/2000th the global population. | | The issue is mostly that it's presumably cheap to fix unlike a | billion cows all farting. | [deleted] | adontz wrote: | Bring them democracy! | themitigating wrote: | Why don't we forget that since it's expensive. How about "fix | the leaks or we'll bomb presidental palaces" | _HMCB_ wrote: | But is the world going to do anything about those spots? | fortysixdegrees wrote: | Have they published a global map we can look at? | MichaelZuo wrote: | How could a 2 mile long methane plume in New Mexico have been | undetected for any significant amount of time? | | From what I understand basic environmental monitoring is done in | 2022 around all major industrial facilities in the U.S. | abruzzi wrote: | what interesting is there is nothing there. The only something | are gas wells which the whole area is dotted with, so my only | guess is leaky gas wells? | https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3761968,-104.0819087,4787m/d... | whimsicalism wrote: | Looks like Marathon Oil is the company | ZeroGravitas wrote: | They passed laws 2 years ago to penalize this. Goes into effect | next year. | | This wasn't a surprise. Laws had been previously passed | specifically to allow this to continue. | pojzon wrote: | Or simply ,,How come we are finding out about that now and not | in last 20 years..." | lob_it wrote: | Because carbon credits and net-zero psychologically imply | failure of the populous to prevent climate change. | | Are you wornout and tired of the doom and gloom? I worked on | my golf swing and actually found new angles to enjoy. | | I saw these reports over a decade ago and was aware of | methane too. | | https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tGEKzMgkUhU | | I read and watched the reports on CFC's decades ago, where | small emissions/leaks will never be detected until they | accumulate in the atmosphere and/or cause holes in the ozone | layer or the like. | | Until all of the "small" greenhouse gas/methane leaks are | capped, we can expect temperatures to continue to rise. | | After the methane leaks are capped, we can expect around two | decades before the atmosphere/temperatures normalize. | | I prefer FORE over sooowwwyyy from obvious obsolete goals and | inferior data. | | Plenty of data available on inaccurate data on the matter: | | https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-62917498 | | https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/methane-super-emitters- | mapp... | | https://www.wsj.com/articles/tougher-rules-on-methane- | leaks-... | | https://www.newsweek.com/fracking-wells-tainting-drinking- | wa... | | https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-63083634 | | Edit: I'm not a fan of acid rain, but I personally didn't | rain on the parade either. Do the math on 24/7/365 leaks of | the unaccounted methane emissions too, for a good laugh at | how much damage has already been potentially done since 2000. | Acid rain warnings predate the turn of the century too :) | themitigating wrote: | Donald trump? | runnerup wrote: | Sadly, the environmental monitoring is woefully inadequate, | even next to the western hemisphere's largest industrial | complex (Freeport, TX ... though its a bit better of an example | to use or include Deer Park / Houston Ship Channel as well | because it's part of America's 3rd/4th largest city). Below the | dashed line is a copy/paste of a comment I made two months ago | on a post of ProPublica's dispersion model and public health | impact modeling of _self-reported_ emission events: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32549653 | | I am very much looking forward to more and more satellites like | this one and ESA's SENTINEL-5P and SCIAMACHY. But AFAIK they'll | never be able to tell the difference between, say, ethyl | acrylate vs. butyl acrylate (both incredibly toxic) or ethyl | mercaptan vs. methyl mercaptan (both noxious/cause headaches at | unbelievably low concentrations; ethyl mercaptan has an odor | threshold of 0.35 parts per trillion). | | So if one plant makes one chemical, and another plant next door | makes a similar chemical, these satellites might let the public | know that one of the plants is leaking, but both still would | have deniability - "it's the other guy across the street". And | you'd still not actually know _which_ chemical you 've been | exposed to. | | For that, you'd need monitoring stations with comprehensive | sensor combinations at the property boundaries of each chemical | plant. | | ------------------------ | | I live in the western hemisphere's largest integrated | industrial complex (Freeport, TX integrated with the eastern | edge of Houston as well). Note that Freeport, TX has ZERO state | or federal EPA VOC analyzers which can actually detect which | chemical is leaking. They can only detect "this amount of | something with {sulfur, N-O bonds, aromatic carbon rings} -- no | clue what precisely though!". This is the same capability of | the most advanced atmospheric pollution satellites. Completely | fucking useless for an area which manufactures something like | 15-20% of all USA domestic chemicals. The technology to measure | individual chemicals exists, but the government isn't paying | for it or installing it. | | The ENTIRE east side of Houston metropolitan area is dedicated | to or "next door" to massive chemical manufacturing. This is an | industrial area nearly equal to _the area encompassing all of | Seattle /Bellevue/Redmond/Renton/Tukwila_. This massive area | has only 3 air quality monitors which test for these kinds of | chemicals[0]. During huge major events like the ITC fire[2], | they often show no increased pollution at all. I lived next to | leaks every day and because I worked in the plants I knew the | smells - one day acrylates, next day thiols, next day | hydrocarbons, etc. But the 3 monitoring sites over 10 miles | from me showed nothing at all. | | Here is the one "correct" monitoring station near the chemical | plants of Houston: [0]... but several of its analyzers are | often offline/broken/pending maintenance. Here's a map of all | the other ones: [1] Generally single/dual color dots mark "not- | useful" monitoring sites which might measure only PM2.5 or | Ozone, for example. The 4+ color dots are generally useful, | they measure specific (large) families of chemicals so you can | see very roughly _what_ is leaking, even if it doesn 't have | "soot" in it. | | The data used by ProPublica is actually far worse than the | woefully inadequate data collected by TCEQ/EPA air monitoring | stations -- because what ProPublica used was "self-reported" | data from the chemical plants. But I know from working in them | and living next to them that many leaks are never reported and | many leaks are never even known internally! Our government's | data collection is a travesty. ProPublica couldn't use the real | air quality measurements because having 2-3 points across 1000 | mi^2 is completely useless for the wind models they wanted to | apply to the problem. | | We don't actually have any data. The government is failing us. | They need to spend about $1 million per air monitoring station | and build them along the perimeters of each plant so that leaks | can be assigned to the offending companies, and they need to be | built near housing so that we know how families are being | affected. ITC fire which blanketed houston's sky in smoke: [2] | | 0: | https://tceq.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id... | | 1: | https://tceq.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id... | | 2: https://abc13.com/deer-park-fire-2019-itc-houston-air- | qualit... | kaushikc wrote: | It is probably inadequate by design. | fazfq wrote: | anonymousiam wrote: | Although methane does not survive for long within our atmosphere, | it can trap more than 100x the heat for the same volume. | | https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/why-do-we-compare-methane-ca... | | Note that this article points out the potential contribution of | the methane to climate change, but this would not be | anthropogenic climate change as the gas is already in its natural | form, just being released from underground. | INGSOCIALITE wrote: | _fart joke_ | madrox wrote: | Worth noting that EMIT wasn't funded for this purpose. It was | greenlit to measure and track dust (arguably still for climate- | related purposes, but still!). This is a relatively minor example | of why funding space-based science is so important. We're still | seeing "accidental benefits" of deploying technology there. | reillyse wrote: | Cynical me thinks that if NASA tried to get funding for a | project that could detect large scale methane plumes which | might be used against the oil and gas industry they might just | not be able to get that funding. | neves wrote: | Cynical me is always impressed in how much funding goes to | find emitters outside the develop world: | | > "...emit methane at high rates span central Asia, the | Middle East and the southwestern United States. By finding | these sites from space, the satellite is bringing an | important perspective to climate accountability," | | USA could close all of its coal mines with the same money | spent in emergency Covid vaccines | chitowneats wrote: | > USA could close all of its coal mines with the same money | spent in emergency Covid vaccines | | Have we not recently been reminded that the true cost of | reducing domestic energy production is much higher than the | mere bottom line estimate of shuttering the production | facilities? | | Germany and France might like a word. With Ukraine slowly | shaking their heads in the background. | reillyse wrote: | All the more so for switching to wind and solar (and | reducing usage). Nobody is saying cancel energy. Just | that switching away from coal is probably a good idea. | chitowneats wrote: | Can the current energy demand of the United States be met | cost-effectively with wind, solar, and batteries? | | I'm a huge proponent of these technologies but the answer | to that question in 2022 is still no. | | "Ending" domestic coal production would cause a drop in | GDP that would make 2020 look like child's play. | themitigating wrote: | Switching over slowly and let the market adjust. Why must | everyone make this argument as some sudden disruptive | change? | chitowneats wrote: | We are switching over slowly. That's literally the status | quo. The argument of "we could end coal for X dollars" is | what introduced the idea of a discrete value into this | argument. How can you know what we will spend unless you | specify a time interval? Clearly we won't be burning coal | in 100 years. Maybe not even 50. Or 30. | derefr wrote: | The way that the USA would "close all of its coal mines" | would involve replacing that production with different | domestic energy production; not by becoming reliant on | foreign energy markets. | hilyen wrote: | > The instrument can look for methane in the same way. "It turns | out that methane also has a spectral signature in the same | wavelength range, and that's what has allowed us to be sensitive | to methane," EMIT principal investigator Robert Green said at a | press conference, according to Space.com's Mike Wall. | | Lol "it turns out". Did they troll Congress and sell them a | mineral detector? Of course they knew methane had a spectral | signature. | | EDIT: No idea why people downvoting, I think it's hilarious and | good we can detect it. | blacksmith_tb wrote: | I read that as "we built the detector to be sensitive to the | wavelengths of the minerals we wanted to monitor, and methane's | spectra are in that range, so it works well for picking it up". | jacobjjacob wrote: | Of course they could have known that beforehand, but it sounds | like they weren't designing a methane detector so the fact that | it works so well as one is what "turned out" I think. Also | articles are really good and taking one quote from a big | technical answer and making the speaker sound stupid | mturmon wrote: | Yeah, but CH4 detection was not why the mission was flown, so | the PI is being careful to make this distinction. | hirundo wrote: | Looking forward to AR apps that map pollutant emissions from such | data and project it as you travel about, making the invisible | conscious. There will be more public pressure for reform if the | public can see the see the point-source IRL. | | If popularized that data could move real estate prices, with | political fallout. | [deleted] | Bhurn00985 wrote: | And now what ? | | Anyone knows what actions will be taken based on this data ? | kelseyfrog wrote: | Everyone has always had the option to vote with their dollars. | If we allow ourself to be eco-capital-realists for a moment, we | have to conclude that living on a habitable planet is simply | not that important for most people. | nomel wrote: | I think this is an extremely privileged perspective. | kelseyfrog wrote: | For a brief moment before civilization-wide collapse, we'll | be able to generate a lot of shareholder value. | themitigating wrote: | That's not what people think. They don't care because it | won't effect them. | hotpotamus wrote: | My plan is to move a bit north before the wet bulb temperatures | in the southern US get too bad. I'm thinking ruralish Michigan | for my retirement. | jakub_g wrote: | Since Turkmenistan was mentioned, mandatory link: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darvaza_gas_crater | | > One of the more popular theories is that Soviet geologists | intentionally set it on fire in 1971 to prevent the spread of | methane gas, and it is thought to have been burning continuously | ever since. | xen2xen1 wrote: | I'm not quite sure, does burning it make it less harmful? | josephpmay wrote: | Yes, burning methane converts it to CO2, which is much less | harmful of a greenhouse gas | danuker wrote: | In the short term. | MonkeyClub wrote: | omgJustTest wrote: | Stupid question: How much is this actually contributing to | climate change? | | Any climate scientists who make active predictions about how much | we don't know? | barbazoo wrote: | > Methane is more than 25 times as potent as carbon dioxide at | trapping heat in the atmosphere | | It's a pretty potent greenhouse gas. | | https://www.epa.gov/gmi/importance-methane | Georgelemental wrote: | Methane is a much more potent greenhouse gas compared to CO2, | but also stays in the atmosphere much less long (on the order | of a few decades). | khuey wrote: | The way methane "exits" the atmosphere is by becoming CO2, | so it's strictly worse. | mirekrusin wrote: | Methane becoming CO2 means it also produces H2O + a lot | of heat, correct? Enough heat to use it as energy source | for example. | tmtvl wrote: | Yes, biogas is primarily methane, and it's one possible | energy source that can be (is?) used while transitioning | away from fossil fuels. | Pokepokalypse wrote: | CO2 plus H2O (water vapor is also a highly potent | greenhouse gas). | CrazyStat wrote: | The 25x number is already accounting for the fact that | methane doesn't stick around as long. It's based on | 100-year GWP calculations [1]. If you look at shorter | timescales methane is relatively much worse. | | [1] https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/understanding-global- | warmin... | rowanG077 wrote: | Methane is a very strong greenhouse gas. But the upside is that | it doesn't stay in the atmosphere for long. The half life of it | is something like 9 years. | nomel wrote: | Would it be ecologically responsible to set these leaks on | fire? | s1artibartfast wrote: | At which time it turns into CO2 which stays around longer, | and water which I believe is a more potent greenhouse gas | than either | Georgelemental wrote: | Water falls to the earth as rain | s1artibartfast wrote: | Something like 90 or 95% of the greenhouse effect is from | water vapor. The only reason we really care about | atmospheric CO2 is because we think that it triggers more | atmospheric water which is the real driver of global | temperature change. | Pokepokalypse wrote: | warmer atmosphere == higher capacity to hold water vapor. | pkaye wrote: | According to the article, it lasts shorter time in the | atmosphere compared to CO2. | | > Since methane only lasts in the atmosphere for about ten | years, compared to the centuries that carbon dioxide sticks | around, reducing methane emissions could contribute to slowing | global warming sooner, | namuol wrote: | Worth mentioning that CH4 ultimately turns into CO2. | idiotsecant wrote: | At which point it reacts with ozone to form carbon dioxide | and water. It's like saying the best way to destroy water is | by freezing it. | marricks wrote: | Really hoping this was outside our solar system and indicative of | life, TBH. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-11-01 23:00 UTC)