[HN Gopher] Launch HN: Shimmer (YC S21) - ADHD coaching for adults
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Launch HN: Shimmer (YC S21) - ADHD coaching for adults
Hi, I'm Chris, one of the co-founders of Shimmer
(https://shimmer.care). We offer one-to-one ADHD Coaching for
adults. It was born out of my own roller coaster of a journey
navigating my ADHD diagnosis. Getting diagnosed with ADHD as an
adult is complicated--equally heartbreaking and liberating. You
literally need to rewrite your whole life narrative in light of
this new realization. The process currently is super confusing and
expensive (medications, therapy, coaching, tools, apps, etc.) and I
just wished someone would guide me through it. Someone to
personalize things for me, ask me good questions, and encourage me
when I was feeling down. My experience was the basis for what
Shimmer is today. We're creating an ADHD coaching service that is
actually affordable (5-10X cheaper than traditional ADHD coaching,
in fact!), personalized to your life (because what works for me may
not work for you), and focused on action instead of theory (because
we're not short of knowledge--we just aren't _doing_ it!). Our
service is fit for ADHD brains. We merge the best worlds of
telehealth (e.g. therapy/coaching sessions) and asynchronous apps
(e.g. Headspace, Noom) to create a solid combo of human
accountability and app-based support. You get matched with an ADHD-
specialized coach, meet weekly in focused video/audio sessions
where you set weekly goals, and over time, bit-by-bit start
building a new day-to-day that supports your goals: new routines,
systems, and skills. Our program is rooted in science-backed
methodologies including Health & Wellness Coaching, Cognitive
Behavioral Coaching (CBC/CBT), Acceptance Commitment Training
(ACT), positive psychology, and solution-focused coaching. The way
we deliver it, however, is less rigid and more experimental. In
each 15-min session and in the asynchronous portions, you'll draw
on collective ADHD community knowledge to work with one thing a
week in your life that you'd like to improve on. Your coach will
support you via text access (in-app) and by seeing and reacting to
your weekly "Actions". In terms of the app itself, there are 3
main components: (1) a daily/weekly simple check-list where you
track your coaching tasks, checking them off (automatically pings
your coach) and reflecting on your progress in-app, (2) a resource
hub where you'll find short, bite-sized content in service of your
coaching journey, not standalone education to just "read up on",
and (3) your personalized chat with your coach where they'll guide
you through the journey--checking in on your completed/in-completed
tasks, giving you feedback, and sending you resources. On the back
end, our coaches have web and mobile apps that are designed to save
them time and cognitive effort, so that they can focus on coaching.
Simple things like "scheduled sends" and a prioritized message list
are included to help them manage a large case load with less
effort. It's $99/mo. for 15-min weekly "bite-sized" sessions, or
$349/mo. for 45-min "similar-to-traditional" coaching sessions.
Traditional coaching can run $400-700+/mo. (up to the thousands
depending on the coach). We also reserve a portion of our
memberships for those with financial need, on a case by case basis.
If you have ADHD (or think you do), we'd love for you to check out
our platform and give us critical feedback (or positive
reinforcement!). It's a super streamlined and ADHD-friendly signup
process and in honor of our launch and celebration of October being
ADHD Awareness Month, the first month is 40% off (offer until Nov
12). I invite the greater Hacker News community to share any
experiences you have with ADHD & navigating care, and am always
open to scheduling a 1:1 call to learn more!
Author : christalwang
Score : 87 points
Date : 2022-11-04 15:46 UTC (7 hours ago)
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| I have ADHD (late diagnosis) and am both medicated and have had
| years of counselling.
|
| The problem with ADHD is that a simple dopamine system deficiency
| expresses in ways as complex as humans themselves.
|
| I found something that works for me but I imagine it wouldn't
| work for anyone else.
|
| Even with thousands spent per year on the best help, I'm still my
| own worst enemy due to the constant brain discomfort.
|
| As an example, my work focus is fine but I struggle with
| compulsion , impulsively, chronic boredom and addiction.
|
| While I applaud any effort to raise awareness and develop
| solutions, the solutions I feel are as complex as the problems
| and they're not something you can encapsulate and charge $99/mo
| for.
|
| Sorry.
| vaishnavsm wrote:
| Congrats and good luck on the launch!
|
| Ok so in general I'd chalk this up to being disinterested, but I
| think this is relevant for a product meant for people with ADHD:
|
| After a couple pages of choices, I was met with a screen with
| options A through K, and I instantly closed the tab. I didn't
| even read what it was asking. I realised that this may literally
| be ADHD like behaviour, so I opened it back up again, but it was
| still quite overwhelming and it took conscious effort to read
| through the form. I think this is just because I'm used to just
| entering my email and password, or using social logins, so
| filling the form seemed to be a substantial point of friction
| (even though I realise how it could be useful)
|
| I'm unsure if I have ADHD, and it's never been a problem for me,
| but I sure do have a short attention span haha
| christalwang wrote:
| This is really valuable feedback for us as we've iterated on
| that form with the ADHD community for a while and actually that
| exact question you're talking about is one that we've debated
| and changed a few times. I really appreciate your feedback
| here, let us revisit our notes on that question again, we'll
| continue to weigh the pros and cons here...
|
| I personally believe from a UX perspective when you can make
| things simpler for people with ADHD, you make it simpler for
| all! Basically the premise of docusign :)
| weinzierl wrote:
| What differentiates you offering from _Inflow_
| (https://www.getinflow.io)?
|
| The description of your app sounds almost like a one to one copy.
|
| EDIT: I checked the Inflow offering and even the pricing is
| similar to yours.
|
| 2nd EDIT: Also, the 'coaching, but not therapy' thing is similar.
| christalwang wrote:
| Inflow, to my understanding, is a primarily education-based app
| with community & coaching components. I use Inflow myself, and
| find their education extremely valuable and easy to digest.
|
| Our service (Shimmer) is focused on the coaching relationship
| itself. So you get matched with a 1:1 coach and meet every week
| over video/audio to develop that relationship and work on
| specific focuses. We do have a smaller element of education in
| it but it's only deployed in the context of your coaching
| journey (e.g. your coach may send you a resource related to the
| task you're working on for the week).
|
| For each person, something different will resonate. For some
| people, multiple things will resonate! We have members who use
| or have used Inflow as well.
| [deleted]
| fortysixdegrees wrote:
| A message to those diagnosed or not with ADHD. It's also ok to be
| yourself, and not try to 'fix' yourself.
|
| Shit at some aspects of life? All good. Good at some things?
| Great.
|
| Not saying treatment is bad, just that being yourself, with all
| its costs and benefits, is a completely legitimate option.
|
| Medicate always as a last resort
| krono wrote:
| Clearly you are not aware how debilitating ADHD can be at
| times, even with proper and continuous care/treatment.
|
| This is a hereditary neurodevelopmental disorder, not just a
| feeling anyone can pick up tomorrow and be cured of again in a
| couple of weeks if they just put in the work and keep smiling.
| christalwang wrote:
| To OP and the rest of the folks in this thread: firstly, thanks
| for opening this convo. It's quite complicated in that each
| person who is neurodiverse (ADHD or other condition) is wholly
| different from the next, in symptoms / personality / severity /
| how much it impacts your life, the list goes on.
|
| Along that vein, there is a level of acceptance (at least for
| me) that I will always be different. The decision of what I
| want to change (just like any neurotypical person decides to
| embark on a 'personal growth' journey) is also each individuals
| to take. Of course, the flip side here is that the societal
| pressure etc., obviously makes it not that simple (holding down
| jobs, etc.).
|
| Another distinction for those new to ADHD is that by
| definition, your life needs to be significantly impacted (at
| home, school/work, etc.) in multiple domains for a diagnosis.
|
| In terms of medication, right now for ADHD it's the most
| scientifically proven way (70-80% of people with ADHD see
| benefits) to manage ADHD symptoms but can also have some side
| effects. Because of this and many other reasons, some folks
| prefer to engage in behavioral change solutions not necessarily
| to 'fix' themselves only, but potentially just to reach certain
| goals they have. This may be used together with
| medication/therapy or on its own.
| lazyasciiart wrote:
| No. Medicate when you think it will help you at a cost-benefit
| trade off you're happy with. Same with a coaching service like
| this, or regular therapy, or other treatment. You aren't going
| to stay the same person throughout life, no matter what.
| cpsns wrote:
| > It's also ok to be yourself, and not try to 'fix' yourself.
|
| Society is very clear that it is not okay with this. If I'm
| "just myself" then I wouldn't be able to hold down a job and
| survive.
|
| > Medicate always as a last resort
|
| We shouldn't be so hesitant to medicate. It can be extremely
| useful, especially in combination with other management
| techniques. This stigma against medication hurts people.
| Mechanical9 wrote:
| Alternatively, don't define who you are by your mental
| illnesses. People are not built equally, and some things can be
| considered objectively broken.
|
| Shit at some aspects of life that are easily treatable? Treat
| them.
|
| ADHD remains one of the most easily medically treatable
| diseases. Do not listen to people propagating the stigma that
| you should just accept a substandard life. For most people with
| ADHD, medical treatment works very well and massively improves
| quality of life. Medical treatment does not have to be a last
| resort.
| kevinqinhu wrote:
| Interesting concept. Personally, I'm not a fan of therapy (tried
| it 3 times and it didn't stick) because I felt like I wasn't
| learning anything tactical that I can apply to my life. I'm a
| founder with ADHD so I'm very focused on building and
| "unblocking" myself -- e.g. getting myself to do the thing I know
| I need to do but can't do for some reason. If having a coach who
| can help unblock me quickly when I'm in a state of executive
| dysfunction, I can see how it'd be worth the monthly fee.
|
| Thinking of giving it a shot. I'm curious though, how long does
| it take to start seeing results from the coaching? I suspect that
| it'll take some time for your coach to get familiar with you and
| recommend strategies that actually work.
|
| Also curious about what retention looks like. I tend to try a
| bunch of different methodologies to manage my ADHD but have
| trouble sticking to them -- I've tried so many productivity tools
| lol. What's going to get me to stay?
| fragmede wrote:
| > I tend to try a bunch of different methodologies to manage my
| ADHD but have trouble sticking to them
|
| a therapist is going up help talk you through this but the
| point is you have ADHD so it's no system is going to stick, so
| what you need to do is reframe it so that it's not that you
| tried a system and it failed, but to look at the 3
| days/weeks/months and celebrate the time that you had with it,
| and to see that as positive. from there, launch into being able
| to pick up systems, new or different, doesn't matter, and use
| them to improve your life within your means. with practice it
| gets easier and easier and suddenly things aren't in shambles
| anymore.
| christalwang wrote:
| I love this.
| Ilasky wrote:
| Another ADHD founder here. I've found that having someone else
| around when I need to to that thing, or a "body double" (
| https://doubleapp.xyz/blog/body-doubling-proxy ), is a super
| useful tactic to "unblock" myself and overcome motivational
| hurdles like the ones you may experience.
| all2 wrote:
| I realized when I was rather young that I performed much
| better when I was around other people. I always chalked it up
| to being a show-off or needing someone else's validation.
|
| TIL this is a thing.
| christalwang wrote:
| You got me a chuckle here!
|
| I have the same. Body doubling is the single most effective
| strategy I use whenever I can. I'm extremely accountability
| (or maybe... validation?) driven.
| christalwang wrote:
| I'm sorry that therapy didn't work out for you. It could be
| therapy being misaligned with your goals, or unfortunately it
| could also just be a bad fit in therapist-client match. I'm in
| the same boat though, I struggled to find a therapist who was
| ADHD-informed and solution-focused under my insurance. However,
| I did find good therapists in the past for my eating disorder
| and for some other more mood-related challenges present in my
| family.
|
| I know this isn't the answer you're looking for, but it's
| definitely an "it depends". Statistically, 83% of our members
| say by 2 months they're seeing improvement in reaching their
| goals but I must admit for now it's quite a high level metric
| with a lot to unpack. It'll depend on a few factors including
| how specific your goals are, how much time/effort you're
| willing to put into it, your attitude/mindset coming in, the
| coach/client rapport, to name a few things. For example, you
| could come in with 1 laser focused goal and achieve in a few
| weeks, or you could come in with the want to unpack your goals
| and find a new career trajectory etc., and that would take
| quite longer.
|
| Most of our members work in 3-month goals. Some of our members
| are on their 2nd set of 3-month goals. However, of course there
| are some that found that they couldn't fit coaching into their
| life in the way they want and didn't continue after the initial
| 4 weeks. We do ask that all folks commit to trying for 4 weeks
| and giving it their best shot since as you mentioned, it's
| important to develop the coach-member relationship, set proper
| goals, and start to create some action plans!
| renewiltord wrote:
| Why is your onboarding questionnaire so complex? Is it a
| regulatory requirement? The "what are the symptoms?" page in
| particular is absolutely humongous. I felt visceral aversion at
| looking at that massive list but managed to push through and
| click Procrastination and Staying on Task only to be rewarded by
| an extra page.
| christalwang wrote:
| Feedback taken! It's not a regulatory requirement but helps us
| understand what challenges folks are coming in with. We've been
| pouring over this part of the intake with members & the ADHD
| community and now have received a couple more points of
| feedback that we take very seriously!
|
| We'll be updating the flow today.
| lambic wrote:
| > If you have ADHD (or think you do)
|
| Does the "or think you do" mean you perform diagnoses too?
| christalwang wrote:
| Unfortunately we don't perform diagnoses at this point. We do
| have some great partners that we refer out to for diagnoses, or
| we can help support folks through that process.
|
| What we mean by that is we coach people who don't necessarily
| have a diagnosis. We welcome anyone who wants to come and be
| coached on ADHD-related skills & goals. For example, if you
| want to work on your executive function but you don't have an
| ADHD diagnosis, you're completely welcome here!
|
| This is also because certain cultures (or an array of different
| circumstances could put someone in this position) prevent folks
| from getting a timely diagnosis and/or they don't want to tell
| their parents, etc. But in this case they can still get
| coaching with _less_ of the stigma. This is a broader challenge
| /problem in society though that we're barely scratching the
| surface on.
|
| As a female, queer, BIPOC/AAPI person who grew up in a certain
| "bubble", I've definitely faced head on how hard it can be to
| take the first step to diagnosis.
| stcroixx wrote:
| What, specifically, is a whole life narrative?
| christalwang wrote:
| I was saving this one to answer, because it's really personal
| for me!
|
| For each person it'll be different. But in short, these are the
| stories you tell yourself, about yourself.
|
| For example: when I was a kid I was always put in this
| "special" desk that faced the back wall, or the other "special"
| desk that was pushed up against the blackboard next to the
| teacher. I was always "other"'d and kept away from others. I
| started growing this idea that I was just a "bad kid", that I
| needed to be removed or separated from others. That nobody
| wanted to hear what I had to say. That I was a "bad apple".
| This really demotivated to try at all in school, and the only
| place I felt confident was in Physical Education class where I
| was allowed to be loud and move around without being yelled at.
| Over time, as I learned about ADHD, I wasn't a bad kid... and
| that sports wasn't even really my thing (lol). With this new
| "fact", I was able to separate some of my behaviors and
| tendancies from me as a person.
|
| That was just 1 little example. I have tons... but I hope that
| made a little bit of sense!
| comprev wrote:
| Anything related to mental health, and ADHD/ADD in particular,
| lights up like a Christmas tree here on HN.
| Mharedy wrote:
| endisneigh wrote:
| I like the site but it seems overpriced - a good therapist is
| cheaper and can do the same thing. A psychologist and
| psychiatrist can both clinically diagnose you and give you
| pharmaceuticals if needed at prices similar to the ones mentioned
| if you have insurance.
|
| Personally I would argue from working with some kids who have
| adhd in the past that more gamification and reasons to use their
| phone will exacerbate some of the worst symptoms of their adhd.
|
| I don't see the niche this fills. In any case, good luck.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > I like the site but it seems overpriced - a good therapist is
| cheaper and can do the same thing.
|
| These ADHD coaching services come up a lot, and this is the
| general advice I give out:
|
| Always start with your insurance options first. Many people are
| surprised to learn that they can get therapy (for ADHD or
| otherwise) for as little as $10-20 per session through their
| normal health insurance. Telehealth has been normalized, too,
| so it's likely you can do it from home.
|
| Always check insurance first to evaluate costs. Consider how
| deductibles play out through the course of the year, too. This
| coaching service is a lot to pay out of pocket relative to what
| many people in tech would expect to pay with insurance
| involved.
| christalwang wrote:
| Thanks for the kind words on our site!
|
| We're definitely aligned / agree that it's really hard to get
| affordable care. Unfortunately, we've found that our members
| have tried (but haven't succeeded) in finding a good therapist
| who is ADHD-informed and can do the specific things they are
| looking for in regards to coaching. Additionally, we definitely
| acknowledge that we provide a completely different service than
| psychologists / psychiatrists, and we work hand in hand with
| them post diagnosis. We do not offer diagnostics or
| pharmaceuticals and rely on other medical professionals
| externally to do so.
|
| Also agree on not using gamification to worsen symptoms. That's
| something we consider very deeply with our clinical team to
| ensure we don't exacerbate our relationships to our phone. I'm
| personally a client on our platform and have that in mind
| constantly!
|
| Thank you so much for the good luck!
| fragmede wrote:
| Where are you getting therapy cheaper!? most therapists I've
| found around me are $xxx/hr and don't take insurance.
| xeniaangevin wrote:
| Thank you for your comment which clearly stems from your
| experience of working with the ADHD folk. We are fully aligned
| on being cautious about the negative behavioural implications
| of digital tools which includes gaming.
|
| As a coaching psychologist and senior member of Shimmer team, I
| concur with the prevalent view that the way to improve the
| quality of life of someone with ADHD is through integrative
| approach comprising each of the helping strands: the clinical,
| psychotherapy and coaching.
|
| In this "holy trinity", the niche filled by coaching reflects
| on the state of affairs which demonstrate that while humans are
| fairly capable of navigating their past experiences and manage
| the "present immediate", we are not so successful at thinking
| about, and getting the best out of the future. This gave rise
| to the areas of psychological sciences which are focused on
| goal setting, planning, self-motivating and developing through
| the entire life-course. These pretty much inform our trademark
| Shimmer approach to coaching psychology and what happens during
| the coaching sessions, therefore.
|
| Thank you so much for the good luck wishes. These are
| especially valuable since our aspiration is to evolve efficacy
| and the evidence-base of ADHD coaching, and to help ADHD folk
| have an active role in moving towards a better quality of life.
| _eht wrote:
| I'll send everyone emojis and only charge half as much. DM's
| open.
| ttul wrote:
| This is definitely a service that needed to exist, so I'm really
| glad that someone finally did it. That being said, if you have
| ADHD or suspect you might have ADHD, I highly recommend seeing a
| medical professional to get diagnosed first before beginning any
| form of treatment.
|
| ADHD is caused by poor functioning of the connections between
| neurons in certain areas of the brain that are responsible for
| impulse control and attention. You can't fight this functional
| deficit with willpower or coaching alone. Decades of research
| shows that ADHD is highly treatable with medication and there is
| almost no evidence that therapy or coaching is effective.
|
| All this being said, I think that people with ADHD develop
| patterns of behaviour to cope with ADHD symptoms. Once medication
| has restored proper functioning in your brain, I think coaching
| and therapy definitely play a role in helping you learn new
| patterns of behaviour that are more appropriate in the context of
| a properly functioning brain.
| christalwang wrote:
| I second this! If you have or suspect you have ADHD, a licensed
| medical professional is your first line of defense. Even if you
| don't choose treatment, the clarity could be helpful (it was
| for me!). But I also understand for various reasons some choose
| not to get diagnosed and there's a lot of work we need to do on
| the societal level to reduce the stigma, especially poignant in
| certain cultural communities (like my own...).
| jazz_from_hell wrote:
| It's entirely possibly to have ADHD and opt out of medication.
| If it's appropriate or not is very individual though, probably
| not something we can settle on a message board.
| s-video wrote:
| I'm an adult with ADHD but this doesn't appeal to me because I've
| already found behavioral techniques that work really well for
| ~free.
|
| I'll try and describe one briefly: I use a free app called
| Virtual Motivaider[1] to make my phone vibrate every 2 to 6
| minutes. I'll print a sheet[2] that has a table with two columns.
| Every row is the same: the first column has the text "Am I on
| Task?" and the second column has two check boxes, "[ ] Yes [ ]
| No". When I start a task that I typically struggle to hold my
| attention to, I start the app, and when I feel the vibration, I
| check off if I was on task or not. I picked the 2 to 6 minutes
| interval arbitrarily; there could be many other intervals that
| work just as well. There's also probably other apps out there
| that just vibrate at a user-set interval.
|
| This has worked extremely well for me. It seems that just
| recording a behavior can increase it or decrease it in the
| direction that you want.
|
| I learned about this from a textbook called "Applied Behavior
| Analysis" by Cooper et al, in a chapter titled "Self-Management".
| If my technique (technically known as "self-monitoring of
| attention" or "self-monitoring of on task behavior") sounds
| interesting, I would recommend finding a pdf of that book and
| reading that chapter. It has some vocabulary that's defined
| earlier in the book, so you can just look them up in the index or
| glossary as you read. The book and the field it hails from can be
| annoyingly dogmatic, though.
|
| I'll stop talking about it for now, but I do like to share this
| whenever adult ADHD comes up because its helped me dramatically,
| and much more so than any professionally-run special education
| program I was in or popular psychology book about habits or
| getting things done. OP, I haven't looked at your app or page too
| deeply so maybe you're already doing something like this or other
| behavioral techniques, but if you're not, it might be worth
| checking out.
|
| [1] The company that made Virtual Motivaider also sells (well,
| they stopped producing them because of COVID difficulties, but
| they're currently trying to get them back) a physical product
| called Motivaider. It looks like a digital kitchen timer but it
| just does the same thing as the app. I bought one after using the
| app for some time, and while the app worked very well, the
| physical product has some nice benefits, like a very distinct and
| quiet vibration, and a lot less friction to start a new session.
|
| [2] Printing out new sheets for each task, or printing out a lot
| and then having to get one for each task, turned out to be pretty
| inconvenient, so I've since compressed the table into a 2 row by
| 15 column one, where in the first column the first row has a "Y"
| and the second one has an "N". The rest of the columns are for
| putting an x in the Y or N row. I fit 6 of these in a 6 x 9 inch
| document, made a pdf of 100 of these pages, then used a print on
| demand service to print a spiral bound book of it, which I carry
| with me between work and home. This has eliminated a ton of
| friction and I've ended up using this technique much more often.
| fragmede wrote:
| congrats on finding something that works for you!
| Spivak wrote:
| You do get that "finding the techniques that work for you" is
| like the whole value of the coach, right? You're standing at
| the end, and I'm assuming you've put in a lot of work to get
| where you are because the kinds of resources that would helped
| you weren't available.
|
| There is such a gap of "people who have ADHD sharing the things
| that actually worked for them." One of the best strategies for
| me "task bracelets" I didn't get from my therapist but a random
| TikTok.
|
| I don't really know if this service is the one to pull it off
| but I want something like it to exist.
| christalwang wrote:
| You took the words out of my mouth! Many of our members (me
| included) have tried to adopt things others said worked for
| them, and it can get quite exhausting finding time after time
| that they don't work. There are 2 (of many things) that could
| be happening here: 1. The tool/tip wasn't the right one for
| you. 2. The tool/tip wasn't implemented in a way that
| maximized chance of success
|
| Those 2 items above are what our coaches try to help with.
|
| With 1., just picking up and trying something someone else is
| using can get exhausting. Our coaches help you dissect what
| the problem is, what sort of systems work well for you (in
| the past), what don't, and why, and then help you pick from a
| narrowed list to choose. For example, accountability works
| really well for me (body doubling) but another one of our
| members hates it because they are introverted and easily
| distracted by movements of others.
|
| With 2., sometimes we pick up the right tool/tip but we don't
| implement it properly. We try it hastily for one day and then
| give up. Our coaches use behavioral change psychology to
| break down the steps, implement it into your life in the way
| that sticks, then keep you accountable to actually giving it
| your best shot.
| christalwang wrote:
| Wow, thank you for sharing these super specific systems you
| have put in place that work for you! With your permission, I'd
| love to share these tools and tips with our coaches, in case
| they haven't seen them before (they are new to me!) and may be
| relevant to their members.
|
| I'm excited that you have found your exact mix, and our mission
| is exactly to help other folks just like us found their unique
| mix of tools & systems that work for their life. With their
| commitment to experimenting, the abundance of resources like
| the ones you've shared, and our coaches' guidance, we hope to
| get our members to their version of where you're at! Ideally
| with free stuff too!
|
| The goal of coaching is most definitely not to be a crutch that
| you have to use forever. Ideally they can get to a point
| similar to yours with the aid of their coach! Oftentimes, the
| sifting through info, experimenting, and staying motivated part
| is the hard part (that we hope to be able to help with!)
| TheTaytay wrote:
| Im really surprised to see the intense skepticism here. As
| someone who is just stumbling into this world and studying ADHD
| as an otherwise successful adult, Chris' description (and $99
| price frankly) resonated with me and made me think I might be in
| the target market. Even one of his responses to someone thanking
| someone for feedback is being downvoted. Is there a connotation
| of ADHD being associated with snake-oil or scams that I'm not
| familiar with?
|
| (Meta-comment questions aside, congrats on the launch!)
| treeman79 wrote:
| ADHD runs very strong in my family. My mom never learned to
| control it and lets it ruin her interactions. Changing topics
| 2-3 times in a sentience is not uncommon. My career was a mix
| of major success and failures. Basically depending how routine
| or novel the problem set was. Took medication at 40 for the
| first time.
|
| First time in my life I was able to work on something boring
| where it didn't feel physically painful to be doing it. Sadly I
| don't tolerate the medication well. (Pain) so I do without it.
|
| Alternatives are always very attractive.
|
| I've often thought it would be awesome if I could just pay
| someone minimum wage to sit behind me and tap on my shoulder
| every time I got off task.
| christalwang wrote:
| You got a good chuckle from me on that last comment.
|
| Thank you for sharing your story. I'm sorry about the pain
| re: Medication :(
| TheTaytay wrote:
| My mom is similar, but I am not. I can stay on topic quite
| well and inability to do so is bothersome to me, so I see
| that and think, "I don't have any of that."
|
| But when you said boring tasks are painful, and wanting
| someone to tap you on the shoulder when you get off task, I
| was nodding along vigorously. My best solution to this (so
| far) is to ensure my way of contributing meaningfully to
| things doesn't require rote, boring work. :) I've considered
| setting up a camera over my shoulder just to give myself the
| feeling of being observed...
| christalwang wrote:
| Maybe the two of you can be that person for each other!
| christalwang wrote:
| Hi! Chris(tal) here (also, I'm a woman.. she/her, haha. I get
| that a lot using my nickname)
|
| Unfortunately, yes. There are many businesses that take
| advantage of not only people with ADHD but people in other
| vulnerable communities (e.g. other neurological conditions and
| mental illnesses). I've been in this space for a long time
| since I started with my Eating Disorder amongst other things in
| my teenage years.
|
| Of course, as most of you have seen, there's a lot of splash
| currently in the news especially in the ADHD space so I
| completely understand the skepticism.
|
| Quite honestly it's not easy for me to have my story out
| vulnerably in the open and linked to our business but for me
| it's worth it! So I really appreciate your positive feedback,
| it goes a long way!
| TheTaytay wrote:
| Ah, that is clarifying. (And oh! Thanks for the gender
| correction. I didn't read your username)
|
| I can imagine that starting a mental health business that
| hits close to home can feel more vulnerable than starting a
| business is already, so kudos.
| Mharedy wrote:
| Sure
| TheTaytay wrote:
| After clicking around, here's something I wanted to mention:
| You mentioned in your post that if you have ADHD or "think
| you do", you encourage people to check it out. I'm in the
| camp of, "I probably don't have ADHD, but boy, some of those
| self-diagnosis survey questions hit close to home, and I wish
| they didn't, so this might be worth looking into whether I
| have ADHD or not." I understand that you aren't in a position
| to offer diagnosis, but I found myself looking for something
| in your FAQ or description that spoke to me. I don't know
| what it would say to me that wouldn't sound like it's trying
| to convince me i have ADHD, but maybe how to investigate
| further, or how to know whether to give your service a shot?
| I might not have found a statement like that because I'm not
| in your target market, and I'm cool with that too. There is
| also a fear I have (and that I've observed in others) of
| being one of "those people" who claim they have a problem and
| go to the doctor and fear they'll discover nothing is wrong.
| So it was reassuring when you said, "or think you do" in your
| pitch, and I think I was looking for the same
| reassurance/guidance from the website.
|
| I hope that is helpful.
| jasonladuke0311 wrote:
| Same here. I think there is a natural undercurrent of
| skepticism on HN, a lot of which is well-deserved.
|
| The ROI of this could be tremendous for someone in tech. If
| this helps you get your shit together enough to be promoted a
| cycle early, for example, or find a new job, it could be a
| bargain.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > The ROI of this could be tremendous for someone in tech.
|
| Sure, but if someone in tech is seeking help it's better to
| start with ADHD therapy (not "coaching") from licensed
| medical professionals, utilizing their insurance to offset
| the costs.
|
| The issue a lot of us are trying to raise in this thread is
| that the program seems designed to take advantage of the lack
| of understanding about therapy versus coaching and cash-only
| versus insured programs. They make it easy to pay and get
| connected with _someone_ , but if you're looking for true
| therapy (not "coaching") then you want to go through
| traditional channels. It will likely be cheaper with most
| tech insurance plans anyway.
| christalwang wrote:
| Appreciate the thought & explanation here. This is
| definitely an issue and I'd love to explain a bit more
| about our thought process here (because we definitely don't
| want to take advantage, instead seek to raise awareness/
| educate!)
|
| I definitely agree ADHD therapy can be hugely beneficial
| but most of our members have cited it as next to impossible
| to find a therapist (within their insurance / state / etc)
| who is even ADHD-informed, let alone practices ADHD-
| specialized therapy. Unfortunately, I've also gone through
| this process and found the same.
|
| We in no way aim to replace therapy or put ourselves
| against therapy. Many of our members are also in therapy
| (for OCD, anxiety, depression, other things) and we are
| more than supportive of that. For many of them, their
| therapists are the ones who recommended them to coaching,
| and how they found us.
|
| And lastly, yes. If you're looking for therapy, we're
| definitely not the place to go. We try to make that super
| clear on our website and in all of our communications (we
| have many drip campaigns, campaigns, Instagram posts, etc.
| trying to help raise awareness and shed light on the
| differences between therapy and coaching for ADHD).
| Additionally, anyone who comes through our flow (get an
| email) are given the option to speak with me directly
| before joining and I can answer any question they have /
| help them even if the answer is not Shimmer.
| [deleted]
| christalwang wrote:
| I came emotionally prepared for today (I hope enough).
|
| Thank you for your point. Actually one of our members was
| recently working on a career change and their coach helped
| them get a job relatively quickly. Of course, the success is
| the members' and not the coach's! But the member cited it as
| a massive help :)
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > As someone who is just stumbling into this world and studying
| ADHD as an otherwise successful adult, Chris' description (and
| $99 price frankly) resonated with me and made me think I might
| be in the target market.
|
| The issue is that this is likely more expensive for someone
| with health insurance than it would be to go out and engage
| with a guaranteed licensed medical professional for ADHD
| therapy.
|
| They use some vague language on the website (look carefully for
| the "or" in the qualifications listing) to obscure that fact
| that you might be working with a "coach" instead of a licensed
| therapist. They also use some moderately misleading language to
| avoid saying they offer therapy for ADHD, instead offering
| things like life skills.
|
| Basically, anyone looking at this should first go to their
| insurance company's website and check the price of true ADHD
| therapy from a guaranteed licensed medical professional that
| you can choose yourself. Over the course of several sessions,
| the cost of doing this through insurance could be much lower
| and you're arguably likely to get better treatment (coaches
| cannot provide therapy by law, so they're kind of coaching
| around it instead).
| TheTaytay wrote:
| Oh - I'm a professional with insurance, as is most of their
| target market, I'm sure. But most things I do medically
| require co-pays, feel complicated, require referrals, etc.
| This feels as accessible as a meditation app subscription,
| with a better value proposition to me. So I think I was
| weighing it against that sort of "guided-'self'-help", rather
| than therapy. And I say that as someone who just talked to a
| therapist, so I'm pro therapy. They just occupied a different
| headspace to me.
|
| But I can see your point. If I had been looking at this as
| more of a medical condition that insurance would cover for
| me, this wouldn't be my go-to substitute. I also see what you
| mean about the wording. I gave them the benefit of the doubt
| since they are trying to convey meaningful authority based on
| science without trying to claim to be your therapist...they
| are in an in-between space. But I admit there is likely a way
| to describe such a positioning without such likelihood of
| being perceived as being misleading.
| christalwang wrote:
| Thanks for your comments here.
|
| We will definitely look into our language on our website to
| make sure we're not obscuring anything. We definitely do NOT
| offer therapy, and you ARE working with an ADHD Coach rather
| than a licensed therapist. In fact, even if the coach you're
| working with has a therapist/counselor credential, on our
| platform that is not the service they are providing.
|
| I'd love to get a better sense of what language you feel is
| misleading, and we'll work hard to change that to reflect the
| reality of what we're offering!
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| > Is there a connotation of ADHD being associated with snake-
| oil or scams that I'm not familiar with?
|
| Yes. Well, not really snake-oil, but this spaces is definitely
| associated with low-effort pill mills and broken marketing
| promises.
|
| Therapy is hard. Doing it at scale is nearly impossible. Doing
| it at scale at a price point consumers expect is literally
| impossible. As a result, you end up with a bunch of "mental
| health" "tech" companies that are making big promises, but
| essentially just putting their patients through checkboxes.
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| Probably going to get downvoted - but I'll hypothesize
| anyway...
|
| I imagine for the younger folks on HN, we grew up with what
| seemed like >50% of people claiming to have ADHD, OCD,
| Tourettes - or some other TikTok-fad "cool" disorder - which
| obviously not that many people actually have these problems.
|
| At least not too long ago when I was young enough to be in that
| crowd - ADHD was the king of "cool" disorders. Everyone wanted
| to have ADHD. If you were "normal" - that was "uncool". It was
| like - what's wrong with you? Why don't you have some
| debilitating problem like everyone else?
|
| So like claimed gluten intolerance in the adult population - I
| think there could be some skepticism to the occurrence and
| severity of some of these disorders - and to anyone making
| products for such groups to be a snake-oil salesman trying to
| capitalize.
|
| But, who cares? Is anyone getting hurt? Let people do what
| makes them happy.
| kdkdkdkxin wrote:
| > At least not too long ago when I was young enough to be in
| that crowd - ADHD was the king of "cool" disorders. Everyone
| wanted to have ADHD. If you were "normal" - that was
| "uncool". It was like - what's wrong with you? Why don't you
| have some debilitating problem like everyone else?
|
| Speaking as someone who definitely, definitely has rather
| severe hyperactive type ADHD complete with anxiety
| comorbidity and tactile defensiveness that presents
| sufficiently severely to look like mild ARFID and was
| diagnosed over a decade ago in early adulthood:
|
| How, just -how-, could anyone want this disorder? It's
| miserable, it's embarrassing to constantly blurt things out
| and to immediately regret it and yet not be able to change
| the behavior, it fucked up my educational experience (I
| wasn't diagnosed until AFTER that happened), every day is a
| struggle with it, and because of the stigma it has, I can't
| even communicate to people effectively what it means that I
| have it!
|
| So who cares? I care! It hurts ME when people self diagnose
| or claim to have my disorder when they don't. It's a struggle
| every. Single. Day. And thanks to people apparently deciding
| it's cool to pretend to have, a lot of people don't even
| believe my disorder exists
|
| Endlessly frustrating.
| cpsns wrote:
| > How, just -how-, could anyone want this disorder?
|
| Because they don't understand just how debilitating it is
| and how much trauma it causes a person. It's absolutely
| shit, especially for those of us who find out later in our
| lives like both of us apparently. Aside from the normal
| issues that go with it, now I'm also plagued by the thought
| of how things could have gone had literally anyone picked
| up on it when I was a kid.
|
| I don't think it's about being cool, at least not
| completely, I legitimately think some folks want at least
| some struggle in their lives. Something to fight against,
| something to give them...purpose? I'm honestly not sure,
| but I know if they did have it they'd do everything they
| could to get rid of it.
| comprev wrote:
| Don't look back with regret, frustration and anger. Look
| back and be proud at what you have achieved undiagnosed
| and what you could achieve going forwards with a
| diagnosis.
| TheTaytay wrote:
| Oh! Your hypothesis makes a lot of sense to me, so I
| appreciate you risking the downvotes. I missed the ADHD over-
| diagnosis and that TikTok self-diagnosis stuff by a
| generation, but seen through that lens, I could imagine
| people are tired of exploitative fad-chasers in this space. I
| have recently talked with a couple of adults who were only
| recently diagnosed with ADHD and it sounded
| enlightening/clarifying for them, so that's the lens through
| which I initially read this.
| WXLCKNO wrote:
| Same. As someone well off with inattentive type ADHD, 99$ is
| money I wouldn't mind throwing away for a shot at getting
| better with the daily issues I face. And then if it works
| progressing to something more expensive is also not a problem.
|
| In my case the issue is that despite having a growth mindset
| for learning pretty much anything, in the case of ADHD stuff
| I've been trying for so long to fix myself that it feels like
| I'll never be able to. And that trying out this service and
| making efforts would be more draining than living with the
| symptoms is.
|
| I realise that's not true so I could force myself to do it,
| it's just what I feel.
|
| Going to go talk with an ADHD specialized psychologist this
| month and will see if a service like this can be extra help
| perhaps.
| jasonladuke0311 wrote:
| > In my case the issue is that despite having a growth
| mindset for learning pretty much anything, in the case of
| ADHD stuff I've been trying for so long to fix myself that it
| feels like I'll never be able to.
|
| Oh man this hits too close
| christalwang wrote:
| :( +1
| Mharedy wrote:
| Yes
| christalwang wrote:
| I definitely feel you, and that's the biggest "con" (in
| context of pros/cons) of coaching. It definitely takes
| significant sustained efforts, which is why medication and
| other methods are often the first line of defense.
|
| We're trying to make it less effort and easier, but at the
| end of the day we know sustained behavioral change will take
| effort. Along that vein, it also may not always be the best
| time, and may not be best fit for everyone. We totally
| acknowledge that and hope to just be one piece of the greater
| ADHD-care pie!
|
| Good luck with your ADHD specialized psychologist!!
| neon_electro wrote:
| The app let me attempt to log in once, and now after hard
| restarting it, it's not proceeding past the splash screen.
|
| I'm on an iPhone SE 3rd Gen running iOS 16.1.
| vsreed wrote:
| Hmm so when you logged in you couldn't move past the splash
| screen the first time? I can take a look at our backend to see
| what the issue may be, but if you'd like we can communicate via
| our support email at support@shimmer.care to help get this
| issue resolved sooner
| neon_electro wrote:
| Seems to have resolved itself now, appreciate the follow up.
| vsreed wrote:
| I'm glad it's working now. Thank you so much for checking
| us out and signing up!
| chrsig wrote:
| > It's $99/mo.
|
| Person with severe adhd and disposable income here: Nope. This is
| too much. Especially if you're not offering psychiatric services
| (e.g., no meds).
|
| > in honor of our launch and celebration of October being ADHD
| Awareness Month, the first month is 40% off (offer until Nov 12).
|
| I can appreciate celebrating october being adhd awareness month
| in november.
|
| I also want to call out that there's no regulation around adhd
| coaching. More or less anyone can do it with out qualifications.
| You'll notice that there's no mention of insurance being
| accepted. I say this because it's a ripe area for taking
| advantage of people. In the absence of regulation, extra scrutiny
| is warranted.
|
| The faq states:
|
| > All of our Shimmer ADHD Coaches are licensed or certified
| mental health professionals or have extensive experience with
| ADHD & undergo our Shimmer Coach Training program developed
| alongside our clinical advisors Dr. Amin Azzam (MD, MA), Dr. Anil
| Chacko (PhD), and our Head ADHD Coaching Psychologist Xenia
| Angevin.
|
| > All of our Shimmer ADHD Coaches are licensed or certified
| mental health professionals or have extensive experience with
| ADHD
|
| That's a sneaky 'or' there -- What're the statistics around the
| coaches qualifications?
|
| > have extensive experience with ADHD & undergo our Shimmer Coach
| Training program
|
| So not mental health professionals
|
| > our clinical advisors Dr. Amin Azzam (MD, MA), Dr. Anil Chacko
| (PhD), and our Head ADHD Coaching Psychologist Xenia Angevin.
|
| No linkage to their qualifications
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > Person with severe adhd and disposable income here: Nope.
| This is too much
|
| Even for people with disposable income, a rate like this should
| trigger some cursory research on your insurance provider's
| website. Common tech company insurance plans might very likely
| come out much cheaper than this when multiple sessions are
| considered across a year and deductibles are taken into
| account.
|
| And you get to choose your provider and know their
| qualifications as a mental health professional. Telehealth is
| commonly available, too.
|
| Don't let the high price of any of these cash-only services
| discourage anyone from seeking therapy. If you have insurance,
| always check that first and do the math.
| christalwang wrote:
| > Person with severe adhd and disposable income here: Nope.
| This is too much. Especially if you're not offering psychiatric
| services (e.g., no meds).
|
| Thanks for pointing this out, we know it's still not in reach
| for most people. We're trying our best to get it as low as
| possible and are working on alternate routes, especially for
| those with the financial need. Right now we have our financial
| aid application, and we're working on something a bit bigger
| that will disproportionately impact communities of need
|
| > I can appreciate celebrating october being adhd awareness
| month in november.
|
| Haha, yes, we're a few days late. The month we're observing is
| Oct12-Nov12
|
| > I also want to call out that there's no regulation around
| adhd coaching. More or less anyone can do it with out
| qualifications. You'll notice that there's no mention of
| insurance being accepted. I say this because it's a ripe area
| for taking advantage of people. In the absence of regulation,
| extra scrutiny is warranted.
|
| Agree on extra scrutiny. The area of ADHD coaching has been
| unregulated and quality is definitely variable (really great
| coaches costing $2,000+/mo. and other new coaches marketing
| their services without much training etc). I have a separate
| comment down / up there somewhere on insurance. We're standing
| on the shoulder of giants by putting together psychoeducation
| that is science-backed and pooling resources & knowledge to
| help guide with what has worked for ADHD brains. We're working
| towards some loftier goals right now as well including an
| Academy-like offering...
|
| > That's a sneaky 'or' there -- What're the statistics around
| the coaches qualifications?
|
| Our coaches fall in 1 of 2 categories: (1) Coaching or MH
| professional credentials (ICF, Therapists, Psychiatrists) or
| (2) Masters-level or equivalent of psychology- or ADHD- related
| field along with extensive hours of client-facing facilitation
| & coaching work. 100% of our coaches fall into 1 of the above 2
| categories.
|
| > No linkage to their qualifications
|
| Dr. Anil Chacko: https://steinhardt.nyu.edu/people/anil-chacko
|
| Xenia Angevin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/xenia-angevin/ Dr.
| Amin Azzam: https://meded.ucsf.edu/people/amin-azzam
| tboywixxy1 wrote:
| hello
| christalwang wrote:
| hi :)
| samstave wrote:
| I have severe ADHD, but I have paid THOUSANDS to therapists and
| honestly - I NEVER got any benefit from it other than more stress
| from having to pay so much money for something out-of-pocket.
|
| My ADHD has cost me a lot more than money, but what specifically,
| or HOW specifically is your therapy different than the therapists
| I have already spent $$$$ on?
| samstave wrote:
| I cant believe you didnt even answer my question, a person who
| has already spent thousands on this problem personally and
| youre announcing a fucking launch IM YOURE FUCKING CUSTOMER
| christalwang wrote:
| Thanks for your comment, and apologies on the delay here.
|
| > what specifically, or HOW specifically is your therapy
| different than the therapists I have already spent $$$$ on?
|
| First I want to re-clarify that we are not providing therapy.
| We providing coaching services for ADHD-related symptoms and
| skills (like executive function). However, coaching (along
| with therapy) definitely does not cure ADHD, as ADHD is a
| lifelong neurodevelopmental condition.
|
| Answering your question directly, our approach is rooted in
| Health & Wellness coaching, and incorporates large amounts of
| positive psychology and behavioral change science. The way
| Shimmer works is that you pair up with an ADHD coach and each
| week you declare 1 focus area (2 or 3 if you're feeling
| ambitious) that you're going to work on. It could be
| implementing a habit or system, or practicing a skill.
| Throughout the week, your coach helps you fight fires if
| something comes up.
|
| Specifically re: Therapy, it's different in that it's focused
| on the daily actions and routines/habits you will try out and
| implement. It will require significant effort or at least
| commitment on the member's part as well, as our coaches
| cannot make the changes for them.
|
| Really appreciate your question, and thank you for your
| patience as we work through these comments.
| samstave wrote:
| Try me out. lets see if your shit works?
| Lionga wrote:
| It does not because there is no coaching that fixes ADHD. It's
| almost like they are offering coaching for cancer. Just not
| going to work and taking advantage of vulnerable.
| endisneigh wrote:
| Though I do agree with your point, the symptoms of adhd can
| be managed with lifestyle changes
| Lionga wrote:
| Would be very happy to hear your lifestyle changes that
| manage (what does that mean?) the symptoms. Honestly if
| they work that would help me an others a lot.
|
| For me the symptoms are loosing around a few ten to hunderd
| of thousands of dollars a year (maybe even millions) in my
| work/career. How can my lifestyle changes manage that?
|
| No attack, really really curious.
| christalwang wrote:
| Yes! I'm excited about this question. I'd like to share
| more about specifically what I've been working on in
| coaching. Most is related to (1) my work as an
| entrepreneur and (2) my role as a partner at home.
|
| I'll start with (1), at work:
|
| At work I struggle with time management, prioritization,
| getting stuck in "waiting mode", not being able to finish
| any detailed task (very important for legal etc), and
| getting easily distracted from any task at hand
|
| Concretely, with my coach we started with helping me
| envision what would be different in my life if I fixed a
| certain number of the above. She explained this hope and
| motivation created would help me draw from an internal
| source of motivation since for a long time I
| theoretically wanted to change certain things and knew
| the path but couldn't actually bring myself to do it. I'd
| say this helped mildly, but I did feel a lot more hopeful
| and supported.
|
| For me the most impactful change was having my coach
| guide me through the process of experimenting with
| different daily schedules that incorporated deep work
| blocks (she helped me set up triggers, rewards, plans for
| distractions, etc), certain auditory alarms throughout
| the day, and very specific systems that helped me get
| these small "detailed" items changed. I'm simplifying
| this a lot and I'm happy to go into detail more if anyone
| wants.
|
| (2), at home:
|
| I struggle with impulsivity, especially when I'm super
| stressed at work and not getting enough sleep. We
| addressed this a few ways, including some psychoeducation
| around nutrition and sleep, setting up some decent
| systems there (but it definitely didn't get me the whole
| way).
|
| What was most helpful was to do a journaling exercise my
| coach led my through where I identified things I said
| that I regretted (this was a tough exercise for me to do,
| to have it written out), and rewrote these situations
| after the fact. Then when I had a long enough list, we
| looked for themes around triggers/situations and then
| rewrote the book for what would happen in those
| situations. We went through a light "practicing" exercise
| and eventually I had those on sticky notes in front of me
| until they got etched in my brain.
|
| Overall, both (1) and (2) I'm still not great at, and we
| try to view everything as an ongoing journey of
| management, rather than "curing" ADHD, which won't
| happen. The biggest impact for me (and many of our
| members) has been having someone guide me through the
| steps and ask me questions and kind of just support me
| when I'm really hard on myself.
| Lionga wrote:
| Appreciate the honesty and openness!
|
| I know I could be working on things that generate a lot
| of money but I am just constantly distracted by HN,
| Games, YT etc.
|
| So happy if you would go into detail about "set up
| triggers, rewards, plans for distractions, etc), certain
| auditory alarms throughout the day, and very specific
| systems that helped me get these small "detailed" items
| changed".
|
| Not convinced that there is anything that I would not
| just ignore after a day or two but extremely happy to be
| proven wrong. I tried a lot of things, all failed after a
| very short time
| christalwang wrote:
| Thank you, and more than happy to share in detail what
| we're on. The key (or one of the keys... not THE one)
| here is not just that I'm working on those things, but
| that there's another human on the other side who I deeply
| respect who is keeping me accountable to these changes.
| Checking in each week and knowing that check in is coming
| is helpful for me. For me out of the motivators of
| [accountability], [novelty], and [interest],
| accountability is my personal biggest one.
|
| But back to the topic...
|
| > Setting up triggers, plans for distractions, rewards:
|
| 1. Triggers: I get a glass of this special coffee (smart
| energy coffee, a brazillian brand that just came to US
| actually) every time I enter a 3 hour deep work block. It
| signifies the ritual has started, essentially
|
| 2. Plans for distractions: We tried a lot of things here,
| some worked and some don't (it's important you test and
| experiment to find what works for you). For me, I pre-
| came up with what sort of situations would take me out of
| flow easiest and planned around it. It was cumbersome but
| helped. E.g. for me it was "if a member emails I feel
| inclined to respond right away to help them", my solution
| was to give that 3 hour "shift" to my co-founder and
| trust that he's got it. Another one that worked was
| having a distraction log stickynote. If something
| happened that wasn't on my deep work agenda, no MATTER
| how important it was, I wrote it down on the sticky note
| and moved forward. This was really hard in practice but
| now I have it a lot better down
|
| 3. Rewards: This we also tested a lot and tbh I don't
| have anything perfect here yet but after each deep work
| session I allow myself to bask in the sun on my balcony
| and now I find myself nearing the end of the block and
| feeling the sun already as a physical response (I'm very
| sensory)
|
| > Auditory alarms: I used to have terrible alarms that
| induced anxiety, fear, and surprise. My coach had me
| change it to things that are pleasant (oddly I never
| thought alarms should be pleasant lol). Now I have
| certain ones that signify the start and end of sessions,
| my work day, etc. They're just on auto-pilot and they
| help me build an awareness of time. Once again, like the
| other stuff, daunting to set up but once it's set up and
| you find your flow, it runs itself.
|
| > Detailed items: THIS ONE is definitely still a
| challenge for me BIG TIME. I now have a specific part of
| my to-do list that is for items like this and I've
| experimented with different times in the day I do it, how
| I do it, in what chunks, etc. And we landed on me setting
| aside 1 time a week for "these tasks" that are kind of
| gross and I do it with wine (I know... not great) and
| with my partner, and with a pomodoro clock and we race
| each other to finish our annoying tasks.
| lazyasciiart wrote:
| That's a pretty uselessly vague "symptom". Do you lose it
| by literally withdrawing cash and misplacing it? By
| purchasing expensive things on a whim and ignoring them?
| By gambling? By failing to sign contracts or meet
| deadlines? By making the wrong product and incurring
| contract penalties or regulatory fines? All of those have
| different triggers and ways to avoid them.
| appletrotter wrote:
| Building consistent habits and working to streamline your
| life can mitigate some of the negative effects. Just
| getting exercise really helps me.
|
| Stepping back and looking at the big picture, there will
| always be an effect on my life from having ADHD, but I do
| have influence. Focusing on the things you can control is
| important.
| Lionga wrote:
| If you think exercise or some good habits significantly
| changes ADHD you don't know what ADHD is, sorry.
|
| I do both, does not change my ADHD at all (it has other
| benefits surely)
| tallytarik wrote:
| > If you think exercise or some good habits significantly
| changes ADHD you don't know what ADHD is, sorry.
|
| I think this is uncalled for, especially when in your
| very next sentence you clarify that you're speaking about
| your own experience. Everyone's can be different.
| Lionga wrote:
| It is not! What is uncalled for is telling someone with a
| serious health condition that is NOT changed by some
| exercise that it would be.
| WXLCKNO wrote:
| The effect exercise has on me is wanting to eat better,
| sleep better etc and it gives me more energy.
|
| All of these things help with my ADHD and I'm much more
| affected by symptoms when my body is not in shape. Not
| sure why that other commenter insists on being so
| offended.
| endisneigh wrote:
| Exercise manages symptoms, it's not a cure. Honestly if
| you have adhd I would stop coming to HN. It's a
| distraction and the nature of it requires you to
| constantly check in.
| Lionga wrote:
| Exercise manages ZERO ADHD symptoms. I can tell you
| between times of almost zero exercise and anything from
| once to five times a week the ADHD was not affected.
|
| Telling me to stop coming to HN is like telling a drug
| addict to just not take drugs.
|
| Even if I block HN, I will just be distracted by
| something else.
| endisneigh wrote:
| Good luck
| samstave wrote:
| This!.
|
| I ride my bike LITERALLY 1,000 miles a month. ADHD is not
| mitigated by this - only my focus on depression is... and
| still... that doesnt relieve it.
| christalwang wrote:
| 100% agree that no coaching fixes ADHD. ADHD is a
| neurodevelopmental condition that for the most part will be
| with us for our entire life. However, we do have the ability
| to manage our symptoms and set up the environment around us
| to make it a bit better for us!
|
| For example, something super small but I've been working with
| my coach to set my room up so that it's harder for it to get
| and stay messy. I've - put up these cute hooks all over my
| room to put up hats and clothes so they don't get thrown on
| the floor - put a laundry basket in each of my closet,
| bathroom, and bedroom - switched my closed wardrobe to an
| open-concept hanging closet (which was so much cheaper too!)
| so I can see all my clothes in one place which is less
| overwhelming and messy, since I'm not pulling all my clothes
| out each time - switched my waterbottle to a straw-system so
| I actually get my 2 bottles a day
|
| ... the list goes on, the more I can settle and make "auto-
| pilot", my life gets a bit easier to manage
| Ericson2314 wrote:
| Is the problem ADHD or is the problem WFH? hmmmm
| christalwang wrote:
| A venn diagram for sure. The 2 together can definitely
| exacerbate the situation.
| andrei_says_ wrote:
| What kind of cut do you take for matching coaches with clients?
| This would likely determine the quality of the coaches.
| mysterydip wrote:
| Do any of your coaches have ADHD themselves?
| christalwang wrote:
| Most of our coaches do. This lived experience is really
| important so that they understand the members (and also model
| good behavior / give hope to the member) and also can self
| disclose. The world of ADHD coaching is very fascinating and
| inspirational for me because ADHD coaches are so niche, that
| most of them either have ADHD or have a partner/child/parent
| with ADHD and that's generally the reason they were propelled
| into the space. I'm really lucky to work with an almost
| exclusively ADHD team, but of course, also we work through
| certain challenges together too.
| okhuman wrote:
| "ADHD" needs a rebranding... move away from clinical diagnosis
| from medical professionals which can be "heartbreaking" or
| "liberating" to coaches/advisors running community groups which
| build frameworks for these like minded, like personality
| individuals (and their associated family/friends) to operate in
| (like a 'club') and to help educate others (advocacy).
|
| People with "ADHD" are already covered by the Big Five
| Personality Traits
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits like
| every other person is.
| christalwang wrote:
| Agree on the rebranding. Thank you for your positivity &
| inclusivity!!
|
| Apologize if the "heartbreaking" and "liberating" language felt
| a bit dramatic (I am a bit dramatic...), but it really did feel
| that way for me after living my whole life feeling like I was
| constantly doing everything wrong.
|
| Ever since slowly going deeper and deeper into the ADHD
| community, the positive spark of the community is undeniably
| special and since reframing a lot of my views on ADHD & myself,
| I've been able to lean more heavily on some of my "superpowers"
| as well.
|
| We actually love the Big 5 personality traits out of all those
| similar quizzes, backed by good science and I think it's
| actually the fan fave of our Head ADHD Coaching Psychologist,
| Xenia!
|
| There's an organization understood.org that is
| starting/forwarding the movement (neurodiversity as a whole,
| not just ADHD) exactly as you say! We're excited about some
| upcoming partnerships with them :)
| okhuman wrote:
| Thanks for the nice reply and congrats on the launch!
| falcolas wrote:
| So, please tell me, where does executive disfunction fall in
| the "Big Five"? How about time blindness? Emotional
| disregulation? Persistent short term memory issues?
|
| It is a disorder which has a material impact on a person's
| ability to live in our society. In more severe cases, the
| afflicted benefit greatly from medication. No amount of
| rebranding or projection will change this.
| drewpc wrote:
| Do you think this article describing a better name for ADHD as
| Variable Attention Stimulus Trait or VAST [1] addresses the
| concerns you bring up?
|
| [1] https://www.additudemag.com/attention-deficit-disorder-
| vast/
| fragmede wrote:
| "Executive function deficit" is another popular one.
| xeniaangevin wrote:
| As a coaching psychologist and a senior member of Shimmer team,
| I am ever so pleased to see you referring to the most validated
| bio-psychological model of personality traits. You are
| absolutely right that ADHD folk have a recognisable "signature"
| on a Big Five model, within the traditional and the modern
| interpretations of this theoretical perspective.
|
| However, the Big Five model only talks about the most notable
| personality traits in statistical terms, whereas the lived
| experience of a person with ADHD is illuminated by the
| richness, variety and the amplitude of the rest of the
| personality traits which may be less statistically profound but
| critically important to a particular person and the way in
| which they relate to their ADHD.
|
| While I can't talk about the ADHD coaching overall, the
| "Shimmer model" is acutely attuned to the lived experience and
| phenomenology of each member we work with. And we always
| welcome critical and well-informed enquiries about what informs
| our approach. Thank you!
| alvarlagerlof wrote:
| Simplify much, are we?
| neon_electro wrote:
| Tried creating an account with Sign In with Apple and got this
| result: https://imgur.com/a/Op7UCBL
| vsreed wrote:
| Just fixed the issue! You should be able to sign in with apple
| id now, sorry about the trouble there.
| awill88 wrote:
| That's what I need, another task lol
| christalwang wrote:
| lol :(
|
| I feel you
|
| However... we definitely try to be more than that! Here are
| some of the #1 benefits our members have cited: - Someone who
| understands - A safe space to talk about ADHD stuff - Guidance
| - Discovery of new tools & systems and someone to think of them
| for/with me - Accountability to do the things I said I'd do - A
| way to verbalize what I intend to do so they can better get
| done
| ElijahLynn wrote:
| I really resonate with this and I just signed up for the month
| intro package!
|
| It seems like a small price to pay if it works! My therapist
| (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy/CBT) and Internal Family Systems
| (IFS)) always says that the key to ADD/ADHD is to have structure,
| and this looks like shimmer could fit that prescription!
|
| Chris, I am in your knowledge learning section of the app and
| your videos are not able to be played on Android because they are
| stuttering. I think maybe your server is getting hit too hard? I
| finally got through the welcome video in the app but it did
| stutter a bit.
| vsreed wrote:
| Thank you so much for signing up and really looking forward to
| your feedback about your experience on our platform! What
| Android device are you using for our app?
|
| We'll definitely investigate on our backend and see if we can
| reproduce the stuttering on our Android test devices as well.
| You can always email support@shimmer.care or message the
| Shimmer admin account directly within the app and we'll make
| sure to log your bug and prioritize it with the team after
| investigating!
| ElijahLynn wrote:
| Thanks, I see the admin chat. I saw it after I posted this.
| It is a Pixel 3. It also took a while for the video just show
| up on the page, so I think it really is something with server
| overload, possibly from being on front page of HN? I'll
| message again if it is still happening in 24 hours.
| vsreed wrote:
| Thank you for letting us know! It does seem like that may
| have been the issue and we'll be looking more into how we
| can improve that with the team, feel free to DM us within
| the admin chat if you notice it still later on as well.
| iamdbtoo wrote:
| > We understand that life doesn't always go according to plan.
| Shimmer members can cancel or reschedule a coaching video call
| without penalty 24 hours in advance. If cancellation is within 24
| hours, the session will be forfeited for the week. Thank you for
| your understanding!
|
| I understand your need to ensure your time is not wasted, but
| policies like this can wreak havoc on people struggling with
| executive dysfunction and that's your target audience. I don't
| know what the right solution is, but a company serving this
| market needs a more flexible policy for something like this.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| Maybe an optional plan that costs a little extra but allows for
| last minute rescheduling within the week. And everyone starts
| with this feature at no extra cost at the beginning. The
| company leaves extra slots open for this possibility, treating
| it like an insurance scheme.
|
| Also last minute rescheduling means last minute scheduling for
| other people too. They may find that they just offer this to
| everyone and the costs balance out. It does seem like imposing
| too many scheduling constraints on a specifically ADHD audience
| could lead to a lot of friction!
| christalwang wrote:
| Yes! Actually we kind of have a soft rule that in the first
| few weeks we always make sure you get your session, even if
| it means rescheduling last minute. This isn't of course the
| best scenario for our coaches who are waiting on the other
| end, but we're happy to invest in this to make sure our
| members get off on the right foot (the onboarding call is
| very important and must happen to start the coaching
| relationship).
|
| However, after the first few weeks, we try our best to uphold
| the policy because the nature of our coaching service (and we
| want to keep the integrity) is that the member is best fit to
| meet their specific assigned coach to continue the
| relationship (trust, openness, safe space, etc.). In practice
| though, as long as our coaches have time, most of them will
| offer a rescheduling of some sort. We do want to set good
| examples and boundaries and have members practice this
| wherever possible, while of course being sensitive to ADHD
| accomodations.
|
| cc: OP, iamdbtoo
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| Yeah. I mean if people cancel 20% of the time then you
| could pay the coaches either way and then charge 20% more
| for the service. At least that is what I am thinking. Maybe
| it wouldn't bother the coaches as much if they're going to
| get paid either way. Maybe with limits to how often this
| can occur without a penalty.
| fragmede wrote:
| the right answer, with a pool of VC money, is to have a pool of
| coaches on tap, so the appointment is NOW. no scheduling stuff
| in the future to be missed or forgotten. expensive on the back
| end, but that's what the VC money is for. And also to have it
| in the middle of the night - so many people I know have their
| awake hours from 1-3am, meet people with ADHD where they are.
| christalwang wrote:
| Thank you for the suggestion!
|
| Unfortunately for our specific service, where the focus is on
| the coaching relationship between the specific coach and
| member, doesn't make us best fit for a "drop in" session, at
| least for the core model. Creating and maintaining a trusting
| relationship with the coach is a multi-step (multi-week)
| process and for many members redeveloping this trust with a
| 2nd/3rd coach may be out of the question.
|
| However, I could imagine this being kind of an add on to our
| normal sessions, and there could be times you could talk
| about something separate from your specific coaching journey
| with a coach that may or may not be yours.
|
| You got my wheels turning.
| fragmede wrote:
| fair point. I wasn't imagining as a sustained thing, but as
| a "it's 3am, my life is in shambles because I totally time-
| blindnessed forgot $very_important_thing, and now I'm going
| to get broken up with/fired and I'm desperate and crying
| and overwhelmed." kind of first meeting, for capturing
| forward momentum from new members who just signed up and
| need a shred of hope. not that something like that is
| finally what led me to get an official diagnosis, of
| course. being tired of feeling like a failure is a powerful
| motivator to sign up, but help later at an appointment I'm
| going to forget and not go to is worthless compared to any
| sort of help now.
| cauthon wrote:
| Why do you describe your product as "coaching", and not
| "therapy"? Is this a marketing decision because of a perceived
| stigma around the term "therapy"? (The re-branding of CBT/ACT to
| "coaching" and "training" instead of "therapy" strikes me as odd,
| I don't understand the emphasis on avoiding the term.)
|
| Will your company be accepting medical insurance? $350/mo
| (~$90/session) is roughly half of what billed-to-insurance
| therapy costs have looked like for me ($150-200 per weekly
| session), which could make this a competitive option for people
| who are uninsured. However, with insurance I've usually paid
| $25-40/session out of pocket.
| elil17 wrote:
| From their website: We're looking for licensed coaches (ICF or
| NBHWC preferred) or licensed mental health professionals (e.g.,
| PhD, PsyD, LCSW, LMFT, etc.) specializing in ADHD.
|
| Looks like they accept people with coaching licenses (this
| often means less than 200 hours of training).
|
| My understanding is that coaches are typically qualified to
| work with people who don't have acute mental health needs. For
| example a coach might help someone figure out how to eat
| healthier, but wouldn't be qualified to treat an eating
| disorder.
| christalwang wrote:
| Yes! Thank you for that distinction. Exactly. Our coaches are
| not treating ADHD as a medical condition (which is why they
| don't diagnose or prescribe) but they are helping people with
| ADHD gain skills, build systems, etc. to help manage their
| ADHD symptoms.
|
| The reality is there are often co-occuring conditions in the
| mix here so we often either refer out or ensure our clients
| are also working with a therapist on other mental health
| challenges / issues like eating disorders, OCD, anxiety, and
| depression.
| Mharedy wrote:
| Yes
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > However, with insurance I've usually paid $25-40/session out
| of pocket.
|
| This is what insured people need to keep in mind.
|
| Always look up the actual cost estimation through your
| insurer's website first. It's not uncommon for health insurance
| at tech companies to have therapy options that come out to
| $20-30/session. Worth checking first!
|
| Also, note that the service offered here is explicitly
| "coaching" and not "therapy" as you'd receive from licensed
| therapists through your insurance.
| Mharedy wrote:
| dec0dedab0de wrote:
| I heard of coaching in relation to ADHD over a decade ago, it's
| not something they invented.
|
| I don't know anything about Shimmer, so I don't know how well
| they fit the mold, but as I understand ADHD Coaching: The
| general idea is that the coaches are there to supplement
| therapy and/or drugs with practical "in the weeds" advice. A
| Therapist would worry about making you feel better, and might
| point you in the direction of some resources to learn practical
| coping skills. A coach is one of the resources to help you
| learn practical skills.
| christalwang wrote:
| The closest sister discipline our coaches practice is Health &
| Wellness coaching, but we also draw on the foundations of
| positive psychology, CBT, etc. depending on the member's
| situation. The practices of coaching & therapy, although they
| have some overlap, are largely different in both practice and
| outcomes. For example, in the context of ADHD, coaching is very
| focused on future-oriented outcomes and tactic-oriented skills,
| whereas therapy is often focused on disentangling thoughts,
| unpacking trauma, etc. Also, coaching is aimed at taking a
| person upwards to their goals, and you don't necessarily need a
| diagnosis of any sort to be here. I may have rambled a bit, but
| the bottom line is, we don't practice therapy on our platform.
|
| Right now coaching is not covered under most insurance plans,
| unfortunately. Some members have been able to work with their
| employer benefits to get Shimmer covered but it's definitely a
| case by case basis right now. However, we try our best to work
| with our members (we have a needs-based financial aid package
| and have something in the works that's a bit bigger than this!)
| where we can!
| cauthon wrote:
| > For example, in the context of ADHD, coaching is very
| focused on future-oriented outcomes and tactic-oriented
| skills, whereas therapy is often focused on disentangling
| thoughts, unpacking trauma, etc
|
| Respectfully, in my experience therapy is very focused on
| outcomes and skills. (A very short list of examples: CBT's
| thought records, DBT's DEAR MAN, ACT's defusion.)
|
| Is the distinction pedantic, or does it have more to do with
| the qualifications or certifications the provider holds?
| xeniaangevin wrote:
| Firstly, it's a pleasure to meet someone as informed in the
| current debates across the helping professions as you are.
|
| As a coaching psychologist and a member of Shimmer team, I
| should firstly confirm that we work in close alliance with
| the other helping professions in the clinical and
| psychotherapeutic space and we understand each other's
| limitations.
|
| And while each of the helping professions pay attention to
| the outcomes and skills, ADHD coaching we do at Shimmer is
| characterised by the relentless focus on the future vision,
| goals and tactics to help the ADHD folk get there. Think
| regular coaching supercharged by the power of prospective
| psychology, coaching psychology, health psychology and
| neuro-developmental perspectives.
|
| We all stand on the shoulders of helping professions'
| giants, but our focal areas are different. And considering
| the time limits involved in helping, the focal areas do
| matter.
| fragmede wrote:
| Let me be more direct: what qualifications do your
| coaches hold?
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