[HN Gopher] Leaderless Teams
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       Leaderless Teams
        
       Author : mooreds
       Score  : 48 points
       Date   : 2022-11-08 20:27 UTC (2 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.brettmacfarlane.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.brettmacfarlane.com)
        
       | zppln wrote:
       | I feel like I've suffered through this type of "leadership" for
       | the past decade. When it works, it's great (although I feel
       | you've kind of traded traditional authority for slight
       | manipulation/scheming on part of the leader in such instances).
       | These instances have also always involved more experienced team
       | members.
       | 
       | When it doesn't work it's useless. Instead of just getting told
       | to drive straight off a cliff you get to wander around in a
       | forest for a while and when you eventually find out you're lost
       | it's way too late.
       | 
       | As always (and as TFA points out) the person you pick for a
       | leader still needs to actually possess whatever skill set your
       | flavor of the month leadership style requires.
        
       | prosaic-hacker wrote:
       | I have experienced leaderless teams in my career (46 years) a
       | handful of times. They formed around a problem that was
       | unrecognized by Management (thankfully) but need to be solved. My
       | best example was at a large SW dev firm in the late 80s. World
       | wide electronic communications was need and faxes and leased
       | lines connected to Decwriters were not good enough. I was
       | assigned to the task as just one of my responsibility. A Single
       | 1200 baud access to internet email at a university solved the
       | problem. The problem expanded many people wanted the same service
       | so we need someone (team member 2) who had access to a UNIX
       | systems. Eight serial ports and 2400 internet connection to the
       | first local ISP.
       | 
       | Rinse repeat 5 years later 10 people, part time, supported all
       | internet connections and intranet/internet web-servers including
       | application without management sanction. Everyone had a service
       | role in there own department. Being connected to the others meant
       | we performed at a high level. We didn't have a leader per se but
       | we all moved in a common direction.
       | 
       | It lasted 8 years and finally several Directors discovered we
       | existed as a team. Like sharks they each took a bite out of us,
       | each one trying to become the dictator of the internet.
       | Procedures were imposed. We were not allow to speak to each other
       | with out going through the directors. Our individual productivity
       | dropped. Angry internal clients screaming for the old way.
       | Nothing got done. Three months later the director that won got
       | half the people back together but we were not the same any more.
       | I still found interesting work for 2 more years before finally
       | leaving.
       | 
       | Leaderless teams can work under the right conditions. I have
       | tried to create them when I moved into management and it worked
       | to some degree a few times. I did not lead or participate in the
       | teams I just suggested people talk to each other know that the
       | might click. I fed them problems (and resources) that I knew that
       | they could solve that I knew would take more effort/time if we
       | did it though channels. The individuals got recognition and I got
       | my problems solved.
        
         | keyle wrote:
         | Interesting, thanks for sharing that bit of history.
         | 
         | I wonder what "Everyone had a service role in there own
         | department." means?
        
       | a_c wrote:
       | To me authority and leadership are related but orthogonal.
       | 
       | Authorities come from the ability to author. It is a creation
       | right. The creation could be a story, a software and, probably
       | what most most people have in mind about authority, a rule. On
       | the other hand, leadership is the ability to, well, lead. You go
       | where ever you want, but if you want people to follow, you need
       | leadership.
       | 
       | One can be a leader without authority. Think of a manager, while
       | it might not be obvious, it is ultimately up to the "managee" to
       | decide whether to carry out what the manager requires. You may
       | fire, you may hire, but none of those guarantee you things
       | getting done. Manager has no authority.
       | 
       | Now, write a software. People wants to add a feature to YOUR
       | software. You have absolute authority in deciding whether to
       | accept.
        
       | eternalban wrote:
       | "What emerged from this exercise is that social class, education,
       | gender and athletic ability were less important for leadership
       | than the capacity for an individual to attend to others in the
       | group."
       | 
       | If this experiment was done 80 years and they selected military
       | leadership positions based on this experiment (as it implies by
       | reduced failure rate measure), I don't understand why OP used
       | "gender" in the summary statement above? Did UK actually field
       | troops in WWII led by women?
        
       | samjohnson wrote:
       | This is interesting, but it's not obvious to me what "the
       | capacity for an individual to attend to others in the group"
       | means in this context.
       | 
       | It would be interesting to learn how that capacity was observed
       | and measured. Has anyone seen the source research?
        
         | gopher_space wrote:
         | From how I've heard it used I'd say 'attend' means 'pay
         | attention to' with undertones of care or service, in this
         | context.
         | 
         | You might have to dig a bit for the details. The following link
         | could help, and the relevant part might be on pg. 8 (actual).
         | 
         | Menzies is a rabbit hole, by the way. Her work during the war
         | was dwarfed by what came afterwards.
         | 
         | http://www.moderntimesworkplace.com/archives/ericsess/sessvo...
        
       | thwayunion wrote:
       | Leaderless models work very well in cases where tasks are stable,
       | tasks can be assigned 1:1 to team members, team members more-or-
       | less understand which tasks are for them, and any major changes
       | to tasks can be coordinated on timeframes of months or years.
       | 
       | The classic example is the traditional academic department at a
       | non-research university.
       | 
       | 1. The main deliverable are courses.
       | 
       | 2. Each professor has some assigned courses. Once assigned, the
       | professor can teach the course mostly in isolation. Additionally,
       | the department tends to hire faculty in a way that makes sense
       | for their curriculum; ie, the one Systems professor in a small CS
       | department is probably going to be teaching the Systems
       | electives.
       | 
       | 3. The courses offered are mostly stable. When the curriculum
       | changes, the changes can be managed in a distributed fashion
       | because the change will take at least 6 months to 18 months
       | before rollout.
       | 
       | Therefore, a traditional academic department can run in a mostly
       | leaderless fashion, with a department chair who plays a
       | supporting role and perhaps a bit of a coaching role for newer
       | hires.
       | 
       | This doesn't work as well when tasks require close collaboration
       | or when tasks evolve rapidly. It's not impossible. Just much
       | harder. In those cases you tend to end up with a recognizable
       | leadership vacuum, leading to sub-optimal outcomes mentioned in
       | other comments.
       | 
       | Anyways, that's all a bit of an aside and not directly germane to
       | the article. But I do wonder if selecting leaders via leaderless
       | teams exercises selects for leaders who work well in well-defined
       | tasks with teams that are already partitioned into quite specific
       | roles, but flail in environments with more dynamic tasks/goals.
        
         | andrewla wrote:
         | I don't think this was the main thrust of the article. The
         | "leaderless team" concept was used to identify individuals
         | within that group that were well-suited to leadership,
         | specifically by identifying (and coaching) those individuals in
         | the group who possess "the capacity for an individual to attend
         | to others in the group".
         | 
         | So more of a question of how to identify the emergence of
         | organic leadership skills within a setting where there is no
         | "assigned" leader.
        
       | robotresearcher wrote:
       | The article is about how to identify promising leaders via a
       | training exercise. It is not about using leaderless teams for
       | actual work.
       | 
       | Many of the comments here seem to be responding only to the
       | title.
        
       | hotpotamus wrote:
       | Whenever my boss was out on vacation and the subject came up, I
       | just told anyone who asked that the team was in autonomous
       | collective mode.
        
       | nlstitch wrote:
       | This is an empty, hollow article and its not like how I
       | experienced groups for 20+ years.
       | 
       | Just like with siblings in families or groups of friends,
       | everyone naturally gets a role in a group; that's just how groups
       | of people let alone animals work. Need to learn how to help
       | others is fine and dandy, until it affects your own autonomy, let
       | alone your identity, let alone the groups' autonomy. Than it will
       | eat at you.
       | 
       | Also what happens in groups is that if there is someone thats is
       | truely not fit for a group, the whole group dynamic will change
       | for the worse and it will try to oust it like a cancer. Until
       | there is someone that speaks up (a leader) things will stay the
       | same because the group will value the "being a group" above all
       | else, even the goal of which the group was founded on.
       | 
       | So? You actually need a good natural leader to guide you through
       | some of the bad stuff. I think leaders are often misunderstood of
       | being only authoritarian, but thats not the case.
        
         | calvinmorrison wrote:
         | > I think leaders are often misunderstood of being only
         | authoritarian, but thats not the case.
         | 
         | Leaders spend more time thinking about other people than anyone
         | else in a company
        
         | avgcorrection wrote:
         | Lot's justs. Just the way it is. Just-so story?
         | 
         | It's so just-obvious that it needs no argument. It's just
         | natural.
         | 
         | > I think leaders are often misunderstood of being only
         | authoritarian, but thats not the case.
         | 
         | Bosses (as in formal authorities, people who have formal
         | control) have been rebranded as "leadership" exactly because
         | "leader" sounds much more voluntary and consensual.
        
       | jondeval wrote:
       | This is an interesting article. My takeaway is that this British
       | team during the war seems to have streamlined a process for
       | surfacing leadership traits that are relevant in a military
       | context.
       | 
       | Lately, my view on what makes a good leader and what I'm trying
       | to practice myself is simplifying down quite a bit. I've come to
       | the conclusion that if there is one attribute you should optimize
       | for, either for yourself as a potential leader, or in choosing
       | someone to follow when selecting a venture, it's ... technical
       | competence.
       | 
       | Hopefully it's clear that I'm defining technical competence
       | broadly to mean deep knowledge about the details of your
       | particular domain. I think this definition is applicable to
       | engineers, attorneys, doctors, entrepreneurs, etc.
       | 
       | I think generalizable leadership attributes are important but
       | purely supplementary to technical competence.
        
       | theCrowing wrote:
       | Leaderless teams always start to build a hierarchy on its own and
       | the longer they exist the harder it gets to get new people into
       | the group. It's really hard to manage.
        
         | bombcar wrote:
         | Yep, leaderless teams are either ad-hoc for a short time, or
         | they develop an unofficial hierarchy (often based on the
         | complaining of certain people, not anything else).
        
         | baxtr wrote:
         | So basically your saying that leaderless teams are only
         | leaderless for a short period
        
         | andrewla wrote:
         | This is exactly what the article seems to be talking about --
         | how to identify the emergence of leadership where no formal
         | hierarchy exists, and how to coach those individuals to find
         | leaders.
        
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       (page generated 2022-11-08 23:00 UTC)