[HN Gopher] Antitrust lawsuit says Apple and Amazon colluded to ... ___________________________________________________________________ Antitrust lawsuit says Apple and Amazon colluded to raise iPhone, iPad prices Author : mfiguiere Score : 256 points Date : 2022-11-09 18:02 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.hbsslaw.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.hbsslaw.com) | fnordpiglet wrote: | I helped build the online division for a major consumer product | that had market force to force retailers to price at msrp. It was | fascinating the extent they went to build the appearance they | weren't being anticompetitive when in reality everyone knew they | were and their pricing was uniform across all retailers. They | also bought all excess inventory back at cost and destroyed it to | ensure no grey market could exist. They even went so far as | requiring retailer websites to essentially #include our website | components embedded in their framing and branding to ensure total | compliance and to ensure competitors products wouldn't be | displayed along side. | | I think these antics are pervasive in high end products as a way | of ensuring their exclusivity and to prevent dilution of their | brand. But they were extraordinarily sensitive to the | anticompetitiveness of their behavior to the extent we weren't | allowed to even say the words "monopoly" let alone write anything | like it down. | judge2020 wrote: | complaint: https://www.hbsslaw.com/sites/default/files/case- | downloads/a... | | Basically alleging Apple disallowing third-party resellers from | appearing on their Amazon pages is anticompetitive and caused | consumers to pay more than if they had the option to purchase the | devices from 3p sellers (page 41). | adrr wrote: | Be interesting to see how this case shakes out. Amazon has a | huge fraud issue and intermingling inventory won't help a claim | that it was to prevent counterfeits. | | https://www.reddit.com/r/airpods/comments/ekmuyd/beware_thes... | throwntoday wrote: | The counterfeit issue basically didn't exist before they | started allowing chinese sellers. I don't know why they | didn't bother to track the origin of individual items before | mixing. | HappySweeney wrote: | It would have cost them plenty of money, which I guess was | not worth their (at the time) reputation for authenticity. | at-fates-hands wrote: | I'm not so sure of that. | | I ordered several products before the platform was | inundated with Chinese junk and I later found out all the | stuff I bought was counterfeit. I think that there was a | lot of Chinese sellers using drop shippers to avoid showing | their products were coming from China. | | One was a Microsoft Sculpt keyboard new in the box with the | mouse. I liked it so much a few months later, I couldn't | find the original seller, so I bought one off of | Microsoft's site - as soon I got it, I could tell the one I | got on Amazon was a counterfeit. | | Same thing with some Lucky jeans. I got a pair off of | Amazon and then went to the Lucky store they had in a local | mall. As soon as I picked them up, I knew the pair I had | were fake. The cotton wasn't the same (the real one's are | super soft denim) and when I went to look closer at the | tags on mine, the tags were off in several areas. | | I had two more things I bought there which turned out to be | fake and that it was for me, I won't ever buy anything | other than books from them now. I know its gotten much | worse since I stopped buying stuff on the site. | behringer wrote: | Careful. Even their books are fake. | | https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/6/24/18715584/amazon- | coun... | sokoloff wrote: | Counterfeiting of clothing (particularly Nike and other | branded sportswear) was _rampant_ on Amazon for years | before the six-letter Chinese sellers of electronics showed | up. Some of it was actually quite well-done, but still easy | to demonstrate by cross-referencing tag information. | tchalla wrote: | > The lawsuit says the parties' illegal agreement brought the | number of third-party sellers of Apple products on Amazon | Marketplace from roughly 600 to just seven sellers - a loss of | 98%, and by doing so, Amazon, which was formerly a marginal | seller of Apple products, became the dominant seller of Apple | products on Amazon Marketplace. | | Apple (future argument) - "We regularly review our sellers for | counterfeit goods. During this review, we found indications of | non-original Apple products. We regularly co-operate with our | industry partners to maintain high standards for our products" | | ^ that's my version not Apple's. | jaywalk wrote: | That hypothetical argument doesn't even make sense. Apple could | (and still can) have counterfeits taken down. This has nothing | to do with that. | ceejayoz wrote: | The counterfeiters can create accounts faster than you can | shut them down, which is likely what led them to the next | step, asking Amazon to only permit certain vetted resellers. | zdragnar wrote: | I'm not sure that I buy it either, but I don't think it is | out of the realm of possibility that Apple would take more | proactive steps than merely waiting to find counterfeits and | report them, especially when a marketplace like Amazon is so | poorly curated that the counterfeiters will just pop back up | again. | RajT88 wrote: | It makes a great deal of sense if you get into the wording. | Non-original doesn't necessarily mean counterfeit. It could | refer to "not sold by Apple or an authorized retailer", i.e. | used / refurbs. | | I don't think they'd go down that path. Risk of ending up in | the pile of corporations who have lost the fight against the | law of first sale. | smm11 wrote: | Apple stuff has always cost what Apple stuff cost. | | At one point you could shop around at places such as Best Buy and | get an Apple device with a "free" printer or something, but you | were still paying what Apple charged for the Apple device. I | guess I don't follow what's going on here. | danaris wrote: | I mean...that _is_ what 's going on here. That's not supposed | to be possible. (And I say this as an unapologetic Apple fan.) | | When Apple's products are never available (barring certain rare | sales) for significantly less than Apple themselves retails | them, that's an indication that some kind of price fixing is | going on. Yes, it's price fixing for the products of a single | supplier, which means that there's a lot less to do, and a lot | less benefit to be gained (ie, the least you're going to be | able to sell it for without taking a loss is Apple's wholesale | price), but it's still illegal. | NovemberWhiskey wrote: | It is definitely price-fixing. But vertical price-fixing | (which is what occurs when a manufacturer tries to control | the price of its product at retail) is not a _per se_ | violation of US anti-trust law. | | ref. https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/522/3.html | rootusrootus wrote: | > That's not supposed to be possible. | | It happens to me all the time with non-Apple products. Always | the same price, down to the penny. Pricing agreements between | the manufacturer and their resellers seem to be pretty | common. | | If we're suddenly going to decide that's illegal, it will | have a huge impact on the market. | ceejayoz wrote: | > That's not supposed to be possible. | | Why not? Apple isn't under any obligation to sell to anyone | at a wholesale price, and can apply conditions via a contract | when they do so. | | Arizona iced tea even prints the price on the cans to prevent | people from fucking with it. | milderworkacc wrote: | In perfectly competitive markets, producers are price | takers. That includes at a wholesale distribution level. | | Being able to pick and choose your customers (and apply | conditions to any sale that favour Apple and disadvantage | the customer) is a perfect indication of the level of | market power that apple possesses. | | Most businesses in competitive industries don't get to do | that. | MichaelZuo wrote: | Tesla? | pessimizer wrote: | > Arizona iced tea even prints the price on the cans to | prevent people from fucking with it. | | Any number of products print the MSRP on the packaging. | You'll notice it if you peel off the label showing the | price you bought the thing for. | [deleted] | jjtheblunt wrote: | is what's going on here class action attorneys targeting | companies with big savings accounts, hoping anything might | stick? | | I mean, Apple and Amazon don't make competing products wrt the | lawsuit, so they can't collude to price fix their separate | products and defeat the market? | | I keep trying to see what i'm overlooking...presuming somehow | it makes sense. | lupire wrote: | Amazon always sold Apple stuff for $50-$100 less than Apple | did. $250 iPad for years. | adamsmark wrote: | Sellers like Mercate Group are a solid reason why the | Apple/Amazon agreement took place. Look at the seller feedback - | I'm not sure I understand why they're still allowed to list | product for smartphones/electronics. | | https://www.amazon.com/sp?ie=UTF8&seller=A389ML6MNB3VQK&asin... | NovemberWhiskey wrote: | The argument in this case seems all kinds of weird. Basically, it | seems to be that Amazon, by restricting third party sellers of | Apple products from its marketplace, is somehow engaged in a | horizontal price-fixing agreement with Apple. This is despite the | fact that the only products whose produced by Apple are affected, | are involved - which is sort of the definition of vertical price- | fixing - and neither Amazon nor Apple control the prices of other | vendors, only whether or not they're allowed on Amazon's platform | - which is not in any case an exclusive channel for Apple | products. | ceejayoz wrote: | > Where consumers used to be able to find discounted prices of | upwards of 20% for iPhones and iPads for sale on Amazon | Marketplace, now they get locked into Apple's premium pricing. | | How were these resellers selling iPhones and iPads for 20% off? | [deleted] | threeseed wrote: | You can exploit currency differences to get a discount. | | For example, in Australia Apple locks the exchange rate at | certain points in order to maintain a consistent price. When | the rate moves against say the USD you can import phones at a | cheaper price. | | Never seen it be as high as 20% though. | mike_d wrote: | Organized retail theft rings. Both the stuff you see on the | evening news where a group grabs everything off the shelf at an | Apple store and one off thefts from places like Best Buy. | | The fact that Amazon willingly participated in this scheme is a | strong indicator that they were getting a high volume of charge | backs and returns that they had to eat because the devices were | new in box but couldn't be activated. | asadlionpk wrote: | Are you telling me Apple doesn't immediately ban those | devices? | sokoloff wrote: | Isn't that why GP says they'd be getting returned to | Amazon? | drewg123 wrote: | Couldn't Apple just enable Activation Lock for the IMEI or | serial numbers of the stolen devices? Maybe the retailers are | not able to report the serial numbers / IMEIs of stolen | devices back to Apple? | boplicity wrote: | It used to be quite easy to find used Apple products on Amazon. | For example, I bought a used 2013 Macbook Pro with Applecare | included at a decent discount. When it came time to replace it, | similar options weren't available on Amazon, unfortunately. | ceejayoz wrote: | This doesn't seem to be talking about used sales, though. | lupire wrote: | Why unfortunate? There are great marketplaces like | Backmarket. | dylan604 wrote: | There's a difference from selling used as an individual vs | selling used as store. There are authorized used Mac sellers, | but I'd imagine they'd be under the same Apple mandates on | what is allowed. If some of these sellers on Amazon "fucked | around and found out" what happens when you break an Apple | contract, then whoops! A contract is there for a reason. | [deleted] | dylan604 wrote: | This is the question I have as well. Seems like they would be | breaking their agreement with Apple about being an authorized | seller. | | Lots of companies refuse to let their products be sold at a | lower price in order to protect their prices. There was one | software company in particular that wrote into the contract | that you could not resell the software to 3rd party. You could | only sell it back to the software company. This was specialty | software, and licenses averaged around $40k per seat. | scottcodie wrote: | It depends on the buy back price for if this scheme benefits | customers or not. Lets say I'm nabisco and I tell grocers | that instead of putting my product on sale and potentially | take a loss that I'll buy back that product. The risk of | selling the product is on nabisco rather than the grocer and | the grocer may stock more nabisco goods because of it. | However, if the terms are not favorable then consumers should | be more skeptical in agreeing to those terms depending on | their risk tolerance. Extreme examples of this do often fall | into anti-trust. | lupire wrote: | That latter part is to prevent resale, which is not related | to retail price and manufacturer's wholesale price. | gausswho wrote: | I've sometimes wondered why it's legal for markets to be coerced | not to price items below MSRP. The acronym includes the word | suggested right? Not mandated? | jcampbell1 wrote: | It isn't a mandate. It is a condition for resupply. | | High end sporting good brands are known for enforcing MSRP so | the high end retailers have budget for sales people and demos. | They cutoff supply to discount retailers to maintain good | relationships with retailers. | | REI would drop North Face in a second if North Face clothing | was available at the TJMaxx next door. The relationship cuts | both ways. | gausswho wrote: | I understand the chain of incentives, but I see room for it | being legislated away as anti-consumer. | TillE wrote: | That would effectively mean a law requiring companies to | wholesale to anyone at the same price. | | That's a rather extreme intervention in a market for no | clear benefit. We're really not talking about anything that | can be construed as monopolistic behavior. | 6stringmerc wrote: | Oh the ghost of Steve Clinical-Sociopath Jobs lives on. I | remember that price fixing suit very well. Also the employee | poaching one. And his paternity case. | | Sucks that the only reason the iPod case lost was because nobody | showed up in time with an affected device. I think I have one | sitting on a shelf that I picked up along the way. Oh well, | that's the law process for ya. It happened but Apple got to | skate. | dylan604 wrote: | Apple has always been known to protect their MSRPs so that | authorized sellers can't "steal" business from other sellers by | offering lower advertised rates and undercutting other stores in | the hopes of less margins more sales. | | Is that anti-competitive forcing all sellers to sell _your_ | product at the price _you_ want it sold? | goosedragons wrote: | Yes? Unless Apple goods are sold on consignment or something | didn't the store buy their inventory from Apple? And so then | it's not Apple's but the store's? | dylan604 wrote: | They bought their inventory from Apple within the provisions | of the contract they signed to be allowed to sell Apple | products. These companies are entering into a valid contract | voluntarily. They can chose not to sign the contract, but | then they don't get to sell Apple products. | lapetitejort wrote: | > Is that anti-competitive forcing all sellers to sell your | product at the price you want it sold? | | Emphasis on _suggested_ in MSRP. Retailers can take a hit on a | loss leader to get people to buy cases, earphones, etc. Unless | businesses collude to not allow that. | dylan604 wrote: | Just like those places with no prices, just donations. | Suggested donations are prices. | rat9988 wrote: | They are not the sellers, so they don't decide the price. They | can force sellers through their market advantage. And this is | why, in my guess, it's anti-competitive. | contravariant wrote: | How is preventing your competitors from undercutting your price | _not_ anti-competitive? It 's preventing the _one thing_ that | causes competition to lower prices. You 're literally | explaining how Apple is using this to avoid resellers competing | against apple stores. | | Besides they're no longer _their_ products, Apple lost | ownership of them after they sold them. If someone chooses to | resell them that 's their business, Apple is not involved in | that sale at all. Technology companies have too much control | over what people can and can't do with their products as is, | let's not give them even more control. | | Of course just because it's anticompetitive does not mean that | competition is _always_ desirable, with concert tickets for | example it 's quite clear that competition is hurting more than | it helps. Though I find "artists should get a say who can see | their concert" much more reasonable than "Apple gets final say | over all sales of Apple-manufactured products". | brookst wrote: | > Besides they're no longer their products, Apple lost | ownership of them after they sold them. | | First sale doctrine is only for retail sales that have no | contract outside the sale. | | In distribution, contracts can absolutely dictate terms. This | is a good thing. It lets, for instance, Boeing require | purchasers to properly maintain airplanes (it hurts Boeing | when they fall out of the sky). It also lets manufacturers | offer lower prices on the condition that products be | displayed or promoted in certain ways. This is very common in | retail ("we'll give you 5% off quantity 100 on the condition | they're promoted in ads and an endcap in each store"). | | The Apple / Amazon example is resale price maintenance. | There's some good background on US law in the area: https://e | n.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resale_price_maintenance#Unite... | | In this specific example, where the claim is that Amazon and | Apple colluded to raise prices by only allowing authorized | Apple resellers on amazon.com, I guess I'm kind of | sympathetic to Apple. At least inasmuch as they can show that | sales from unauthorized resellers generate more | warranty/support/other expense, or brand damage from even | worse stuff like fraud and counterfeits. | | It seems like the real complaint is with the resale price | maintenance in Apple's authorized reseller program. Which may | be a fair complaint. But why not go after that? If the price | maintenance is illegal, it should be illegal everywhere, not | just Amazon. And if it's legal, it should be legal on Amazon | as well. | ErikVandeWater wrote: | > In this specific example, where the claim is that Amazon | and Apple colluded to raise prices by only allowing | authorized Apple resellers on amazon.com, I guess I'm kind | of sympathetic to Apple. | | This is false: | | "Ultimately Apple proposed, and Amazon agreed, to limit the | number of resellers in each country to no more than 20. | This arbitrary and purely quantitative threshold excluded | even Authorized Resellers of Apple products." | | Apple is alleged to have created an Agreement with Amazon | that retroactively limited the marketplaces where Apple | Authorized Resellers could sell Apple products. | eptcyka wrote: | > I guess I'm kind of sympathetic to Apple. At least | inasmuch as they can show that sales from unauthorized | resellers generate more warranty/support/other expense | | Could you provide some proof for such statements? | mschuster91 wrote: | The problem Apple and an _awful_ lot of other brands have | (had) with Amazon, eBay and other stores allowing third- | party sellers for their products is that there are an | _awful_ lot of scammers around - Apple literally had to | build a fake detector for AirPods into iOS [1] because | the problem got so out of hand. And yes, obviously they | have to deal with a lot of people expecting actual | AirPods or other Apple hardware who got fakes and | contacted the original brand for support. | | It's sad to say but unfortunately I don't see a way out | of this mess than strict brand control measures. | | [1] https://www.macrumors.com/2022/09/12/iphone-fake- | airpods-ale... | brookst wrote: | Proof that I'd be sympathetic if they showed those | things? That's a tall ask. But I promise I would be. | | Proof that authorized resellers in aggregate provide | better service and therefore fewer escalations/expense to | the manufacturer? I didn't make that claim for Apple | specifically, but it seems plausible. | bombolo wrote: | > but it seems plausible | | why? People working at apple stores are not more trained | or more competent than people working in other stores. | brookst wrote: | I think there's some confusion here -- "Apple Authorized | Reseller" does not mean "Apple Store". B&H is authorized, | Amazon is authorized, Walmart, Target, Best Buy, and | T-Mobile are authorized resellers. There's a tiny local | shop near me that's authorized. | | There are only ~500 Apple stores in the world. There are | probably probably 100,000 authorized reseller locations | (Walmart alone has 10,000 locations). | | Setting aside Apple, the reason companies set up | authorized reseller programs is to control the customer | experience, from price maintenance (the topic of this HN | thread) to brand image to customer satisfaction with | returns/refunds. | | Being authorized for any manufacturer is kind of a big | deal; these companies pay for that arrangement, and there | are often training requirements for staff, and minimum | purchasing requirements, requirements for return/refund | policies, and more. In return, the manufacturer steers | business to these retailers and provides them with (often | free) brand collateral, demo units, etc. | | So if a customer has a complaint, whether it's user error | or defective product or a mistake by the retailer or just | the customer deciding this product is not for them, there | is a strong incentive for the retailer to do right by the | customer to avoid jeopardizing their status as | authorized. | | But if a customer needs help from a no-name reseller who | has no direct manufacturer relationship, that reseller | has little incentive to fix the issue. It's cheaper to | just punt everything to the manufacturer, and there is no | reason to do any extra work to protect the manufacturer's | brand. | | And of course unauthorized resellers have a strong | incentive to pass off refurbished or even counterfeit | products as real. Lower cost, and there's no bridge to | burn with the manufacturer. | | So all of that is why I think it's plausible that Apple, | and other manufacturers, see increased costs and more | negative brand experiences from companies that don't | participate in their authorized reseller programs. I'm | sure there are great indie companies that do everything | right. But, in aggregate, at the scale of an Amazon.com, | it seems reasonable for both Amazon and Apple to use the | authorized reseller designation as a filter for sellers | more likely to treat the customer well. | factsarelolz wrote: | >Apple is not involved in that sale at all. | | Apple is still on the hook to provide at least the bare | minimum of support which costs Apple money. | smoldesu wrote: | They choose to offer that support themselves, there is no | "hook" for them to be on. If their business model is found | to be incompatible with a fair economy, they'll be forced | to adapt. | tjsix wrote: | "How is preventing your competitors from undercutting your | price not anti-competitive? It's preventing the one thing | that causes competition to lower prices." | | Because Minimum Advertised Price (MAP) policies are one of | the most common practices used by the large majority of | consumer goods manufacturers and brands, especially in the | electronics or higher end goods space. | | Every retailer who is an authorized seller of a brand that | employs a MAP policy has agreed to advertise/list/publish the | product at a price no lower than MAP, or risk losing their | reseller status. Note that I did not say they can't sell for | a lower price, just that they cannot show a lower price to | the general public to elicit a sale. | | MAP is not just beneficial for the brand though, who's | products remain priced accordingly to limits the brand has | set; it's beneficial to the retailer who can count on a | minimum set margin and not have to worry about being undercut | by another retailer. It also benefits the end consumer by | ensuring the retailer and brand retain enough margin on the | sale to facilitate after-sale support and service as well | provide the means to stay in business along with the benefit | of helping to protect resale values (for applicable | products). MAP policies themselves are fully legal under | current anti-trust laws (in the US). | mwint wrote: | > Besides they're no longer their products | | This is correct for used devices, or course, but people in | the wholesale chain will have signed contracts agreeing not | to sell below MSRP. | | It's called "undercutting the channel", and it's very frowned | on in the physical goods distribution industry. | whimsicalism wrote: | Those aren't "third party resellers" which is what is being | discussed. | rootusrootus wrote: | How does a third party get an iPhone at wholesale price, | then? They're not going to undercut the channel if they | have to buy at retail prices. | from wrote: | There's a pretty massive grey market in iPhones. | | There's a couple of ways they are sourced but basically: | | - Buy Apple gift cards for 70-80% of face value from | let's just say dubious sources and then use that to buy | phones | | - Fedex or warehouse employees stealing to supplement | their salaries | | - Authorized retailers who break their agreement | | - Buyback websites or stores where people bring phones | and get paid like 60% of retail or less if it's locked. | Some of this is just people wanting to return a gift they | got without asking the giver for the receipt but most of | the phones bought at these kind of stores are obtained | through "credit mulling" where they gather up a bunch of | homeless people and pay them $20 to go into an AT&T store | and get a phone on credit. | | - Currency arbitrage: if the Euro drops and companies | don't update their prices and you are able to get VAT | refunds then you could be able to get a phone for less | than it's American retail value. This (big drop in yen) | combined with the camera shutter is why Japanese spec | iPhones can be a lot cheaper. | | https://www.hanggroup.com/price/ is a company with 9 | figure revenue that purchases these no questions asked. | You can see the most they pay for a phone is $1050 for | the 14 pro max which is $50 below retail. | from wrote: | Also I should add carrier auctions, store | bankruptcies/liquidations, gaming credit card points but | these are much less common than the methods listed above. | mwint wrote: | > Apple gift cards [...] from let's just say dubious | sources | | Is this where the gift cards harvested from scam | operations go? | from wrote: | The Nigerian or Indian scammer will usually get 40-50 | cents on the dollar in their local currency or crypto | from a Chinese "gift card trader" who then sells it on | Paxful or in Wechat/Whatsapp groups for 10-20% more than | that. The groups doing it on a large scale have | "shoppers" who spend all day buying electronics with the | cards for a % of the amount. | jtbayly wrote: | They don't have to get it at wholesale price. They could | have gotten one as a prize, but not want it. They could | have gotten a great deal on one from AT&T or Verizon or | T-Mobile, but just want to turn the deal into more cash | by keeping their old phone and selling the new one. They | might have gotten cash back by buying it on a credit card | and be willing to sell it for slightly under MSRP to | arbitrage the difference. All of these could lead to | lower than MSRP prices. | mikestew wrote: | _They could have gotten one as a prize, but not want it._ | | Your examples are unlikely to be how a "third-party | reseller" obtained the phone(s). | commoner wrote: | Many people sell unwanted gifts and purchases that are | not eligible for free return on marketplaces such as | Amazon and eBay unopened. It's easy to sign up as an | Amazon Marketplace seller, since there is an Individual | plan with no monthly fees: | | https://sell.amazon.com/pricing#selling-plans | | In the past decade, Amazon started adding brand | restrictions to prevent marketplace sellers from offering | items on certain listings unless they met requirements | set by the brand owner. This collapsed Amazon's | marketplace for used goods of restricted brands and also | hindered individuals selling new goods of restricted | brands on Amazon. This lawsuit focuses on new goods of | one of these restricted brands. | jcampbell1 wrote: | We are talking about Amazon not eBay. None of these | examples make much sense. The real issue is iPhones | aren't country locked and Apple works with a ton of | retailers globally. It would just end up a cat and mouse | game of Apple trying to figure out which desperate | retailer is dumping inventory on Amazon in violation of | Apple's agreement with the retailer. | whimsicalism wrote: | Amazon has third party resellers. It's more similar to | eBay than you might rhink | jcampbell1 wrote: | I know the process because I have setup an Amazon vendor | account. You are not getting a vendor account to sell one | phone you won in a bingo raffle. | commoner wrote: | I used to have an Amazon Seller account on the Individual | plan, which has no monthly fees: | | https://sell.amazon.com/pricing#selling-plans | | Prior to Amazon's brand restrictions, Amazon Marketplace | was a popular place for individuals to sell unwanted new | and used goods. Selling on Amazon was even easier than | selling on eBay, since there was no need to make a new | product listing with photos and descriptions. Most of the | new goods sold by Individual sellers were not raffle | prizes, but unwanted goods such as gifts, items obtained | at a discount, and items that were not eligible for free | return to the original retailer. | whimsicalism wrote: | What if you bought new phones from others and then | resold? | mwint wrote: | > They might have gotten cash back by buying it on a | credit card and be willing to sell it for slightly under | MSRP to arbitrage the difference. | | Has anyone made this work? I tried to make it work. Even | at 10% (Discover IT category + end of year match), you | can't buy something, have it shipped to you, sell it, | ship it, and make money. Any online marketplace eats your | profit very quickly with assorted fees. | snazz wrote: | And the Discover bonus is limited to $75 in cash back per | quarter at the 5% rate (at least on the card I have), | which means you could probably do it once or twice before | you're back to earning 1%. And if you're in the first | year you'd need to wait until the card's first birthday | to get the other half, so you'd lose money until then. | commoner wrote: | A better example is Chase's promotion with Apple this | year, which involves Chase credit card holders being able | to redeem Ultimate Rewards points at a higher rate of up | to 1.5 cents/point on Apple products compared to the | standard rate of 1 cent/point for a limited time: | | https://9to5mac.com/2022/10/03/chase-apple-products- | redempti... | | Many of Chase's credit card sign up offers provide enough | points for a cardholder to obtain an iPhone through this | promotion. If the cardholder does not want the iPhone, | they could resell it on a marketplace. Amazon Marketplace | used to be one of these marketplaces until it started | restricting listings for certain brands such as Apple. | Zircom wrote: | If you contacts overseas and enough volume you can often | move various electronics for a decent margin. It's pretty | involved though. | | One of the routes I'm aware of involves buying gift cards | from Kroger with a high cash back credit card during | their frequent events where they offer extra fuel points | on purchases. They don't charge activation fees on gift | cards, and you can sell the fuel points accounts somewhat | under the table on eBay, and then pocket the cash back | from your credit card. Then you wait til black Friday or | other sales, use the gift cards to buy electronics at | discounted prices, and then ship them overseas to sell | for a decent markup. It involves floating tens of | thousands of dollars for several months though so not | quite for your average individual just trying to make | some quick cash. | boogahB00 wrote: | ClumsyPilot wrote: | > Is that anti-competitive forcing all sellers to sell your | product at the price you want it sold | | Is restrictiong competition antimcompetitive? | | Is taking someone else's money stealing? | | Is putting people in chains and selling them slavery? | | Do words mean anything? | ouid wrote: | yes | postalrat wrote: | What do you mean by "all sellers"? Does that include people | selling used devices? | MichaelCollins wrote: | > Is that anti-competitive forcing all sellers to sell _your_ | product at the price you want it sold? | | Yes. And it's not supposed to be ""your"" product after you | sell it to a retailer. | judge2020 wrote: | This is actually shifting, from what I've heard; if you're a | small physical product seller and want to get your stuff on | retailer shelves, you essentially pay Best Buy a shelf space | & inventory fee instead of selling your product to them. This | means Best Buy can take a chance putting garbage (or not) | products on their shelves without having to take a loss (in | the form of a discount) on any unsold inventory. | dylan604 wrote: | Big Box retailers will give you shelf space, but if product | isn't moving, they can force you to buy it back from them. | That's part of the agreement signed between the parties. | Just like Apple putting in as part of the contract that you | sell at stated price, it's something agreed between | parties. | crooked-v wrote: | > And it's not supposed to be ""your"" product after you sell | it to a retailer. | | ...unless you have a contract with that retailer around the | conditions of the sale, which Apple and lots of other big | companies do with their bulk retailers. | dahfizz wrote: | Yes. That is like the definition of anti-competitive. Apple is | abusing its power as a manufacturer to gain an anti-competitive | edge in the retail side of its business. | tick_tock_tick wrote: | > Is that anti-competitive forcing all sellers to sell your | product at the price you want it sold? | | Yes | vkou wrote: | US anti-trust law mostly focuses on _harm to consumers_ , not | competitors. | | I'd daresay that backroom deals that prevent prices from | dropping are the poster child for harm to consumers. I can't | think of a more blatant example of it, actually - can you? | paxys wrote: | Once I buy something it is my product, not Apple's. I can then | resell it at whatever price I want. That's why the concept of | maximum _suggested_ retail price exists. | | Apple blocking me from selling something I own is 100% illegal. | brookst wrote: | As many others have pointed out, this is only true as a | purchaser who has no contractual relationship outside of the | sale. | | If Apple comes to you and says "paxys, we just love you, | we'll sell you everything for 50% off... but you have to sign | a contract that you will only dispose of products by firing | them into space", and you sign that contract, and they live | up to the discount... surprise, you're on the hook for your | part of the contact. | | Apple has contracts with these resellers. It's called minimum | advertised price (MAP) or retail price support. There is a | long history of MAP/RPS being litigated in the US, and there | are lots of twists and turns and valid opinions to be had. | | But "first sale doctrine supersedes any contracts" is NOT | correct. | paxys wrote: | Yes except this lawsuit has nothing to do with Apple | authorized resellers. It is about "third-party merchants" | on Amazon, who can be literally anyone. If I - having no | prior agreement with Apple - decided to sell my iPad on | Amazon, they would remove my listing because Apple didn't | approve of it. | sokoloff wrote: | The "M" in MSRP is Manufacturer's, not Maximum. | nojito wrote: | This isn't true at all. | | Numerous sellers reduce prices for apple devices. It's gotten | so consumer friendly that I almost never go to the Apple Store | anymore. | | I know this because I fully utilize Best Buy's price matching | to get lower prices on my purchases. | lupire wrote: | Price matching pretty much only works on Apple devices | because every other consumer electronic/appliance gets a | different model # for each store that sells it. | lotsofpulp wrote: | It is always funny to me to see a claim that Amazon has some type | of outsize pricing power in the marketplace, when switching to a | different business involves typing in a different URL. | | As opposed to every other merchant/marketplace in the physical | space where switching to a different business involves expending | leagues more energy and time. | | If these people are able to source and sell Apple products for | considerably less than Amazon, then it should be trivial for them | to advertise their website. Just spamming Reddit comments would | do the trick. People will surely be willing to type in a | different URL if they can save tens or hundreds of dollars. | advisedwang wrote: | > switching to a different business involves typing in a | different URL | | You are mixing two different parts of the market. Switching URL | impacts the relationship between consumer and retailer. This | lawsuit is about the relationship between retailer and | manufacturer/distributors. | jonathankoren wrote: | >It is always funny to me to see a claim that Amazon has some | type of outsize pricing power in the marketplace, when | switching to a different business involves typing in a | different URL. | | That's the power of habit. You can use Bing to search the web, | but you probably don't. It's unconscious brand loyalty. I know | the VAST majority of stuff I buy online comes from Amazon. Why? | The barrier is low. I know they'll have it and I can most | likely get it in two days. Mix in familiarity with the website, | it's all over. | [deleted] | barbariangrunge wrote: | Iirc, Amazon prevents you from charging a lower price on a non- | Amazon site. It drives up prices across the board and | artificially makes non-Amazon retailers seem more expensive | than they would be, because Amazon prices often hide part of | the shipping costs. There's no such thing as free shipping | after all | | I forget what the penalty is but it was all over the news a few | years ago. Let's see... | | https://www.inc.com/guadalupe-gonzalez/amazon-removes-price-... | WoahNoun wrote: | Well if they can't sell the Apple products on Amazon, this | doesn't seem to apply. | lotsofpulp wrote: | > artificially makes non-Amazon retailers seem more expensive | than they would be, because Amazon prices often hide part of | the shipping costs. | | I presume there would not be anything stopping the other | websites from including the shipping prices? | | Regardless, my point is if Amazon was not offering a seller a | reasonable deal, they should just start their own website. | The barrier to entry has never been lower in all of history. | barbariangrunge wrote: | That sounds so easy. I wonder why so few of them thought of | that | paulryanrogers wrote: | > The barrier to entry has never been lower in all of | history. | | There are distinct brand, network, and bundle effects at | play. Like "I've already got Prime so why bother looking | elsewhere". | googlryas wrote: | I actually worked at Amazon on the tool that crawled the web | looking for lower prices on products which Amazon had a most | favored nation clause on. This was in 2012 and the tool had | been broken for multiple years and no one cared until I found | it and fixed it. | | After I fixed it I think in the first year it "made" Amazon | $30M in lower payments to vendors(though it is hard to | attribute exact monetary values due to complexity of the | contracts) | | But no one cared, I barely got any praise, no promo or | anything. So I quit and went somewhere else. | GauntletWizard wrote: | If I had a dime for every story like yours I'd read, I'd | have a few dollars. Which is saying something, because I | don't talk to Amazon or Ex Amazon people all that often. | googlryas wrote: | Move here to Seattle and you can't throw a rock without | hitting a current or ex Amazon employee:) | | But also please don't throw rocks at us. | GauntletWizard wrote: | Oh, I live in Seattle myself. I just know the warning | signs to avoid. | googlryas wrote: | Seems a little bigoted to judge 75,000 people like that, | but to each their own. | hnlmorg wrote: | Most people don't buy products from sites who's advertising | consists of spamming message boards. We are trained to treat | such site with suspicion - and rightfully so too given they | usually are scams. | lotsofpulp wrote: | So don't excessively spam so as to not come off as a scam | website. And the seller simply has to wait for their | reputation to build. Just like Amazon and Apple had to wait. | leganthropane wrote: ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-11-09 23:01 UTC)