[HN Gopher] Is algae the new kale?
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Is algae the new kale?
        
       Author : Brajeshwar
       Score  : 96 points
       Date   : 2022-11-11 16:13 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.nationalgeographic.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.nationalgeographic.com)
        
       | endo_bunker wrote:
       | I've considered eating algae as an alternative source of DHA with
       | less risk of microplastic contamination, but I've had a hard time
       | finding definitive evidence of what types of algae contain
       | significant levels of DHA.
        
         | dinosaurdynasty wrote:
         | Algal supplements might be the easiest way of doing that.
         | (That's what I currently do.)
         | 
         | And from what I understand it's mostly micro-algae with
         | EPA/DHA.
        
       | flareback wrote:
       | I've seen this movie, I don't want that life
        
         | flavius29663 wrote:
         | you know, some people were really squeamish about eating
         | aquatic roaches, and they were reserved for penal
         | colonies...but over time the public at large started to love
         | them, they also gave them better names, like "crabs" and
         | "lobsters".
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | hunterb123 wrote:
           | anyone can eat algae if they want to, most don't want to.
           | 
           | some people do want to eat crab and lobsters, some don't.
           | 
           | it's not a naming issue or a perception issue, it's a choice
           | issue.
        
             | flavius29663 wrote:
             | I don't think anyone is saying to not eat what you want
             | anymore, it's about having another option.
        
               | hunterb123 wrote:
               | The entire piece is about guilt tripping the reader into
               | eating algae under the threat of climate change.
               | 
               | The title is called "Is it time to start eating algae?"
               | even...
               | 
               | The answer to the title is no, unless you want to, which
               | you can already.
               | 
               | If it was about another option it would be a recipe
               | article, not a climate change article.
        
         | BlueTemplar wrote:
         | "[...]
         | 
         | The earth hath then become small, and on it there hoppeth the
         | last man who maketh everything small. His species is
         | ineradicable like that of the ground-flea; the last man liveth
         | longest.
         | 
         | "We have discovered happiness"--say the last men, and blink
         | thereby.
         | 
         | They have left the regions where it is hard to live; for they
         | need warmth. One still loveth one's neighbour and rubbeth
         | against him; for one needeth warmth.
         | 
         | Turning ill and being distrustful, they consider sinful: they
         | walk warily. He is a fool who still stumbleth over stones or
         | men!
         | 
         | A little poison now and then: that maketh pleasant dreams. And
         | much poison at last for a pleasant death.
         | 
         | One still worketh, for work is a pastime. But one is careful
         | lest the pastime should hurt one.
         | 
         | One no longer becometh poor or rich; both are too burdensome.
         | Who still wanteth to rule? Who still wanteth to obey? Both are
         | too burdensome.
         | 
         | No shepherd, and one herd! Every one wanteth the same; every
         | one is equal: he who hath other sentiments goeth voluntarily
         | into the madhouse.
         | 
         | "Formerly all the world was insane,"--say the subtlest of them,
         | and blink thereby.
         | 
         | [...]"
         | 
         | (Not sure that blowing up the biosphere, literally so when
         | considering geological timescales, is a better alternative...)
        
           | squidlogic wrote:
           | For anyone curious, this excerpt is by Nietschze in Thus
           | spake Zarathustra.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | xjwm wrote:
         | Tuesday is Soylent Green day.
        
       | imwillofficial wrote:
       | No, it's not time. Jesus.
        
       | c7b wrote:
       | I love the seaweed that you sometimes get in restaurants (rarely
       | where I live, unfortunately). But the article makes me a bit
       | skeptical, it doesn't mention any downsides at all, it sounds
       | more like a marketing piece than a balanced assessment.
       | 
       | I don't even know what questions I'd have to ask, off the top of
       | my head I'd like to know what the risks regarding eg mercury and
       | microplastics contamination are. Also, would we be eating 'wild'
       | algae, or would they be farmed? I guess it'd have quite different
       | implications both ecologically as well as nutrient-wise.
        
         | basch wrote:
         | seaweed salad?
         | 
         | this stuff was awesome https://www.delish.com/food-
         | news/a33596417/costco-seaweed-sa...
        
         | photochemsyn wrote:
         | Origin of supply seems fairly important to keep track of:
         | 
         | https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-21732-z
         | 
         | > "Distribution of metals and metalloids in dried seaweeds and
         | health risk to population in southeastern China (2018)
         | 
         | Most sources report levels low enough to not cause health
         | risks, but eating large quantities ( > 5g day ) is probably not
         | the best idea, and it should be tested for lead, mercury and
         | cadmium (industrial waste sources). Arsenic and iodine are also
         | naturally accumulated in seaweeds, particularly iodine, which
         | while a necessary trace element, can be dangerous in high
         | concentrations.
        
           | NikolaNovak wrote:
           | is 5g a large quantity? I must be missing significant
           | context.
        
       | swader999 wrote:
       | Better than crickets, but I'll stick to beef thanks.
        
         | pmontra wrote:
         | I also have beef and also vegetables and fruit. Plenty of space
         | on my table for all of them.
         | 
         | About algae, there are a lot of different vegetables of all
         | shapes, consistency and colors. The only difference is that in
         | nature algae grow under water instead of under the rain.
         | Considering how many of our vegetables are farmed without even
         | seeing the rain once in their life, that's a non problem.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | presidentender wrote:
         | It may be practical to feed that beef algae instead of corn.
        
           | trimbo wrote:
           | Related:
           | 
           | Feeding Cattle Seaweed Reduces Their Greenhouse Gas Emissions
           | 82 Percent
           | 
           | https://caes.ucdavis.edu/news/feeding-cattle-seaweed-
           | reduces...
        
           | ck45 wrote:
           | It's supposed to reduce cow farts. See e.g.
           | https://www.euronews.com/green/2021/09/24/seaweed-to-cow-
           | fee...
        
           | Gordonjcp wrote:
           | Don't feed cows corn, feed cows grass.
        
             | nemo44x wrote:
             | Depends what you want to do with the meat. Corn fed beef is
             | superior for certain applications like BBQ.
        
               | Gordonjcp wrote:
               | Corn-fed beef is bland and greasy. Next you'll be telling
               | me that Aberdeen-Angus beef is good...
        
               | wrycoder wrote:
               | It's a matter of taste. I find much grass-fed beef to be
               | dry and tough.
               | 
               | Speaking as someone who has actually raised grass-fed
               | beef.
        
               | Gordonjcp wrote:
               | What breeds did you have?
        
               | wrycoder wrote:
               | First time was a Beefalo crossed on a Jersey cow. Second
               | time was a White-faced Hereford crossed on the same cow.
        
               | Gordonjcp wrote:
               | Not come across Beefalo, maybe not something we have over
               | here.
               | 
               | Hereford are good but they're a proper "good old-
               | fashioned roast beef Sunday dinner" breed.
               | 
               | We mostly had Charolais crosses, and Luing cattle which
               | you don't really see outside Scotland. They're smallish
               | but the meat is amazing.
        
               | nemo44x wrote:
               | I mean, every top ranked bbq joint in Texas uses it. Sone
               | of the better BBQ restaurants in the UK import it.
               | 
               | Aaron Franklin has gone on about why and it's because of
               | the long cook times. BBQ is smoked and seasoned so I'm
               | not sure the bland opinion matters.
        
         | Apocryphon wrote:
         | I've wondered if the move to get rid of livestock to reduce
         | wasteful resource consumption can just be focused on getting
         | rid of beef. Poultry cultivation is far less water intensive
         | than raising cattle. If everyone just ate chicken and pork that
         | would be a significant improvement.
         | 
         | https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/beef-uses-ten-...
        
       | maxbond wrote:
       | I've had the pleasure of having freshly harvested spirulina. It
       | was buttery and wonderful and rich, eating a few grams felt like
       | a big slice of chocolate cake.
       | 
       | Eating algae is not a compromise or a burden, it's a fabulous
       | luxury we should all experience.
        
       | TheAceOfHearts wrote:
       | Cody'sLab has a few videos about growing his own algae for
       | consumption which are pretty interesting:
       | 
       | https://youtu.be/64cEmjtwRgw
       | 
       | Personally, I'm not opposed to this kind of food but integrating
       | it into your existing diet can be challenging.
        
         | nkingsy wrote:
         | Spirulina Is much happier warm. Harvesting is kind of boring.
         | Got a 5 gallon bucket topper with a fine mesh strainer for
         | engine oil. Scoop out a bunch, flush repeatedly with fresh
         | water, you get a green gelatinous cake that doesn't taste like
         | much (tofuish?)
         | 
         | No one liked it. It would do in a pinch.
        
       | Victerius wrote:
       | Only if the rich do it first.
       | 
       | I won't eat bugs, lab grown meat, algae, or any other
       | experimental food until the rich do it first, and do it
       | consistently, not just once as a demonstration.
       | 
       | My logic is simple. If the rich don't embrace an innovation, it
       | tells me that the innovation is either not what it's cracked up
       | to be, that it gives a poorer quality product than the
       | traditional option, or that the rich think the innovation is for
       | suckers or the poor. If that's the case, I'll stick with the
       | traditional option.
        
         | incone123 wrote:
         | I want to agree with you, but some rich people will try (or
         | promote) any fad. I'm thinking of Gwyneth Paltrow.
        
         | somebody78978 wrote:
         | Algae isn't an experimental food; plenty of rich people eat
         | sushi, for example.
        
           | JoeAltmaier wrote:
           | Isn't that seaweed? I'm confused.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | seszett wrote:
             | "Seaweed" is a rather ill-defined term in English that
             | regroups a lot of different algae. Nori is made from red
             | algae, that are included under the term seaweed.
        
           | goatcode wrote:
           | If plenty of people are already doing it, why is the article
           | titled with the question of whether we should start doing it?
           | 
           | It's because the article is talking about making it more of a
           | primary source of nutrition. It isn't even the primary
           | ingredient in sushi.
           | 
           | So, if the rich (and politicians) start eating it as a
           | primary source of nutrition, then the commenter to whom you
           | were replying might consider it similarly.
        
         | seszett wrote:
         | I'm probably rich at least on a global scale, and I have always
         | eaten algae because it's part of several regions' cuisine,
         | including my home place in Europe.
         | 
         | So go ahead, you can eat algae too, it's not a new experimental
         | kind of food.
        
       | colordrops wrote:
       | I've read that one of the reasons that thyroid cancer is so
       | prevalent in east Asia is due to seaweed consumption. Seaweed has
       | 10,000x times the iodine of other food products, and a percentage
       | of that iodine is potentially radioactive. I don't have a source
       | so take this with a grain of (uniodized) salt.
        
       | jackmott42 wrote:
       | Maybe we could just impregnate people a bit less instead?
        
         | rs999gti wrote:
         | Found the westerner everyone. I want those benefits, but I
         | don't want to make the tax base to pay for them
        
         | rubyist5eva wrote:
         | G7 countries are already all below replacement fertility rates.
        
           | throwaway8689 wrote:
           | No problem. We can find replacements.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | no_time wrote:
             | Okay, now find good ones.
        
             | rubyist5eva wrote:
             | I didn't say it was a problem. OP was suggesting we make
             | less people, and we already are.
        
       | whycombinetor wrote:
       | I've eaten 4.6g of spirulina in the last 24 hours in the form of
       | the Bolthouse Farms Green Goodness smoothie. No taste issues to
       | speak of. I for one welcome our new algae overlords.
        
         | wrycoder wrote:
         | Spirulina is not algae. It's bacteria. [0]
         | 
         | I avoid it, possible ALS risk.[1][2][3]
         | 
         | [0]
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirulina_(dietary_supplemen...
         | 
         | [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanotoxin
         | 
         | [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3295368/
         | 
         | [3]
         | https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/1748296090327848...
        
           | whycombinetor wrote:
           | Ouch, today I learn "blue-green algae" isn't "algae".
        
             | wrycoder wrote:
             | My wife got on a spirulina smoothie kick awhile back, so I
             | did some research. We sent it back.
             | 
             | Lake Mascoma isn't too far from us, and we do see
             | cyanobacteria blooms around here.
        
       | netfl0 wrote:
       | fucking no.
        
       | mjul wrote:
       | If you want the high-end take on this, check out the Spanish
       | Michelin star chef, Angel Leon. He is known as "chef del mar",
       | making novel dishes with the plants from the ocean.
       | 
       | Here is a short portrait in English:
       | 
       | https://thebestchefawards.com/2021/06/06/angel-leon/
       | 
       | His restaurant, Aponiente:
       | 
       | https://www.aponiente.com/en/
        
       | calme_toi wrote:
       | This reminds me when I was in kindergarten, the most popular
       | diet/health supplement are some green/blue tablets which are
       | claimed to be made of some sea plants or algae called Spirulina
       | and with multiple benefits.
       | 
       | I think Amway is still selling those tablets in some countries
       | now.
        
       | dustractor wrote:
       | It is definitely time to protect the sources of quality algae.
        
       | hunterb123 wrote:
       | You first, Sarah Gibbens
        
       | incone123 wrote:
       | It's time get people used to the idea of eating algae. Then they
       | won't question the Soylent Green.
        
       | marricks wrote:
       | I love all these whacky avenues people take when eating just
       | plants is a very low foot print option available to almost
       | everyone.
       | 
       | We don't need to eat crickets, we don't need to eat algae, we
       | don't need bioreactors for growing meat.
       | 
       | I think the main reason we don't hear more about just how goddamn
       | efficient a bowl of lentils and rice is, or oatmeal, is because
       | it's not sexy. You just can't make a start up on beans and rice.
       | 
       | Which is a shame, because beans and rice are healthy and tasty.
       | And also are one of the avenues to save the planet.
        
         | wintermutestwin wrote:
         | >because beans and rice are healthy
         | 
         | I disagree. A high carb diet make me fat. A high protein diets
         | does not.
         | 
         | There is no vegan way for me to eat my daily protein target
         | without eating far too many carbs along with it.
         | 
         | (edit: I should have stated that there is no way beyond eating
         | highly processed foods)
        
           | ericmcer wrote:
           | I feel the opposite, as soon as I start supplementing with
           | whey protein or adding meat I put on muscle and weight, but
           | with mostly beans/rice/lentil diet I have consistent energy
           | and stay light.
           | 
           | I think the "protein" obsession we have currently (even my
           | milk carton brags about protein content) might be dialed back
           | in the near future. It came from the weight lifting
           | community, and lifting weights is one of the least healthy
           | and functional ways to stay in shape. Hopefully we view
           | hiking and doing physical activities as being "in shape" soon
           | versus going to a gym to do a bunch of isolated movements
           | with weight.
        
             | wintermutestwin wrote:
             | In my 20-30s, I was a long distance cyclist which required
             | a high carb diet and I had persistent belly fat. Now I
             | primarily lift weights and eat a high protein diet and I
             | have lost all the belly fat and as an added bonus, my
             | posture is no longer perma-hunched.
        
               | ericmcer wrote:
               | Which version of you would have done better at something
               | like... running around with your kids at the park? Or
               | running a mile to catch a train?
               | 
               | My main point is that defined abs and a giant chest and
               | arms have little to do with health and performance, but
               | the body-building culture has convinced us all that they
               | do. It got ridiculous in the 90s when Arnold and Stallone
               | were portrayed as heroes good at everything due to their
               | big muscles, when the reality was that Arnold needed help
               | wiping his own ass when he was at his biggest.
               | 
               | But if your goal is attracting a mate or intimidating
               | other males bench press and bicep curls are your path.
               | 
               | I am also coming from a place as someone who hit 315 on
               | bench in my mid 20s but felt like an old man.
        
               | wintermutestwin wrote:
               | Technically, I would have been far more injury prone
               | running during my cycling days because of the terrible
               | imbalances due to "mono sporting" as a cyclist. And I am
               | not a musclebound gym rat now either. I spend more of my
               | exercise time walking than anything else these days.
               | 
               | Not trying to sidestep your point here though and I
               | understand and agree with what you are getting at re:
               | over focus on lifting.
        
           | issa wrote:
           | 2 things:
           | 
           | - everyone is different
           | 
           | - there are plenty of low-carb, high-protein vegetarian
           | sources (see: tofu)
        
             | wintermutestwin wrote:
             | Actually, the problem with tofu is that it has a very high
             | fat to protein ratio. If I were to get my protein from
             | tofu, I'd take in way too many calories from fat.
        
             | wintermutestwin wrote:
             | Yes, you are right - I left out highly processed foods
             | (tofu, seitan, etc) because I don't think they are healthy.
        
               | forgetfulness wrote:
               | The processing in tofu is merely blending of soy beans,
               | filtering and curdling, unless cheese is in the same
               | category for you, I'd say that particular millenia-old
               | foodstuff is not in the same category as Beyond Burgers
               | or hot pockets.
        
           | subsuxbjes wrote:
           | There is you just don't care to learn and are stuck in your
           | own ways. That's fine, but don't act like it's not possible
           | because it is and it's not hard.
        
           | marricks wrote:
           | Seems like you are pluralizing your own anecdote. Sorry for
           | your issues though.
        
         | version_five wrote:
         | It's not hard to understand. Meat tastes good and is satisfying
         | to eat, and is the preferred centerpiece of many cultures'
         | meals. So there is a market to find substitutes that will have
         | the same appeal. Not that I think crickets or algae fill the
         | niche, but at least people are trying something. Vegetarians
         | saying "why doesn't everyone eat just plants, I do it" are
         | ignoring culture and projecting their narrow view onto others
        
         | ravenstine wrote:
         | > I think the main reason we don't hear more about just how
         | goddamn efficient a bowl of lentils and rice is, or oatmeal, is
         | because it's not sexy.
         | 
         | No, we don't hear about it more because it's not healthful. If
         | it were, the human digestive system would be like that of
         | cattle, but it's not. You can feed everyone carby, fibrous
         | meals, but that's not optimal and not even necessarily better
         | for the environment.
         | 
         | The reason algae is proposed as a way to feed people is that
         | it's _not_ dumping a bunch of carbs, fiber, and incomplete
         | protein down everyone 's gullets. Humans don't need to be
         | consuming these things, and there's drawbacks to diets that
         | aren't based on what our species developed to primarily consume
         | over the last 4 or so million years. There's aspects of algae
         | that are preventing it from being a serious food source across
         | the world, but if those roadblocks can be overcome then it can
         | be a game changer because of where it can be grown and what
         | kinds of nutrients it's capable of producing.
         | 
         | In the present, there's no good reason to believe that
         | "everyone" needs to eat more plants and less meat. Meat is a
         | part of the atmospheric carbon cycle, _just as are crops_. On
         | the contrary to what you 're suggesting, and putting aside the
         | fact that fossil fuels are being used throughout livestock and
         | agriculture, individuals can eat whatever they see fit for
         | themselves.
        
           | CuriouslyC wrote:
           | Sorry, but lentils are pretty much the closest thing to a
           | single food that meets all of a human's nutritional needs in
           | existence. If you pair lentils with a small amount of spinach
           | and eggs that gets you there.
           | 
           | Your comments about what "people" were designed to eat also
           | sounds pretty ignorant, since we're not genetically
           | homogenous for starters. Most humans of European descent have
           | evolved for seasonal carbohydrate consumption, which is why
           | they make you fat in excess (good luck surviving a hard
           | winter lean). The only people who really shouldn't be eating
           | carbs are indigenous people from very cold areas with a
           | primarily marine diet. There are pockets of indigenous
           | Americans from desert regions who don't do fantastically with
           | carbs either, but those people mostly have issues with a
           | caloric surplus in general.
           | 
           | Seaweed is a better food (and habitat) for fish than humans.
           | We should create artificial reefs and forests to feed fish,
           | then sustainably harvest fish from those manmade "farms".
        
             | gruez wrote:
             | >Your comments about what "people" were designed to eat
             | also sounds pretty ignorant, since we're not genetically
             | homogenous for starters. ...
             | 
             | Source for this? I don't doubt that there are groups with
             | genetic adaptations to food (eg. genes for lactase
             | persistence), but I'm not aware of anything for carbs.
        
             | Gordonjcp wrote:
             | And that's great, but how far do the lentils travel to get
             | to your kitchen?
        
           | bobbylarrybobby wrote:
           | Lentils and rice are a complete protein. While they don't
           | provide 100% of the nutrients you need, if you throw in a few
           | green vegetables you'll be absolutely fine.
           | 
           | Crops use something like 1% of the resources to grow that
           | meat does. It's not just about where carbon is stored, but
           | land and water usage and where carbon is produced (cows fart.
           | a lot.). Overall plant-based diets are far superior for the
           | planet than meat-based diets, and contrary to popular opinion
           | they don't have to suck.
        
             | BlargMcLarg wrote:
             | There is token research that creatine supplements are
             | especially beneficial for vegans, and creatine isn't the
             | only thing mostly found in animal-based foods. Given
             | nutritional sciences has a history of being a rollercoaster
             | ride, maybe it isn't the best idea to make wild claims
             | which don't mirror how the world behaves at large.
             | 
             | Water and land usage is also A: grossly overstated (you
             | can't grow anything except grass on most land) and B: cited
             | as something against _all_ meat when chickens, goats,
             | ducks, geese and pigs use far less of both. At that point,
             | substantiate or correct your statement to  'beef'.
        
               | gruez wrote:
               | >A: grossly overstated (you can't grow anything except
               | grass on most land)
               | 
               | The overwhelming majority of soy grown globally is fed to
               | livestock. That's definitely does not fall under your
               | category of "can't grow anything except grass on most
               | land".
               | 
               | "More than three-quarters (77%) of global soy is fed to
               | livestock for meat and dairy production. Most of the rest
               | is used for biofuels, industry or vegetable oils. Just 7%
               | of soy is used directly for human food products"
               | 
               | The proportion is lower for corn, but only because a huge
               | chunk is being used for fuel. If we exclude that, it
               | would still be the overwhelming majority.
               | 
               | https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/charts/104842/corn_dom_u
               | se....
        
               | Gordonjcp wrote:
               | That's because soy isn't really suitable for human
               | consumption, and about 80% of the soy plants that you
               | grow consist of stuff that humans can't eat.
               | 
               | How do you plan on solving the problem of eating the bits
               | of soy plants that humans can't eat?
        
             | hannofcart wrote:
             | > Lentils and rice are a complete protein. While they don't
             | provide 100% of the nutrients you need, if you throw in a
             | few green vegetables you'll be absolutely fine.
             | 
             | Sounds like the South Indian Sambar with rice meets this
             | criteria.
             | 
             | Or rice-dal-subji combo in North Indian cuisine.
        
         | goodpoint wrote:
         | > We don't need to eat crickets, we don't need to eat algae, we
         | don't need bioreactors for growing meat.
         | 
         | While this is true, algae has been a common, almost staple food
         | for thousands of years in Asia.
         | 
         | TFA, "start eating algae" only betrays its narrow perspective.
        
           | marricks wrote:
           | Completely valid, I worried about that after I typed it but
           | decided to leave it in to relate more to the article which
           | opens on a wacky start up idea.
        
         | coinbasetwwa wrote:
         | Being vegetarian is extremely unhealthy, drives the obesity
         | epidemic, and is far more likely to cause individuals to become
         | depressed. Good luck getting heme iron, carnitine, carnosine,
         | taurine, creatine, B12, Vit D, and DHA in a meat free diet.
        
           | subsuxbjes wrote:
           | What? This is honestly so wrong you can't be taken in good
           | faith.
        
         | slothtrop wrote:
         | Only _relatively_ low footprint. You 're underestimating the
         | fossil fuel consumption needed in the form of ammonia (for
         | fertilizer), farming equipment (smelting for steel, also
         | requires coke from coal), transport, manufacturing, plastics
         | (greenhouses, packaging), etc. This is all essential to feed
         | the world, and there's nothing low footprint about it. Btw,
         | compare the consumption needed for a tomato/100g vs chicken,
         | and you'll be surprised.
         | 
         | All of this is a moot point if demand were to stop growing, and
         | that will only happen when population does. Another accelerant
         | is that as more of the world is lifted out of poverty, demand
         | increases. All of the increases in efficiency and swaps for
         | green energy are outpaced by demand, and will continue to be.
         | 
         | Btw, immigrants are not moving to the 1st world so they could
         | consume less. They're going to eat meat, buy gadgets and single
         | family homes. In fact govt policy is counting on it (that's
         | what a GDP increase means, more consumption). Reduction in
         | overall meat consumption helps, but you shouldn't bet on it to
         | end, nor is it the most exacerbating source of emissions (plus,
         | I hope, seaweed infused feed could trivialize methane emissions
         | as it rolls out).
         | 
         | The alternative to lower demand is a staggering transition away
         | from fossil fuels (only like 15% of fossil fuel consumption is
         | for electricity), but that will probably take awhile. Lowering
         | immigration rates would marginally help (probably not as much
         | as people think) but that would be unpopular anyway. It's
         | simultaneously "just" to pad the numbers of those consuming
         | like Westerners (literally what "a better life" describes), and
         | a moral imperative for the same concerned class to pressure
         | Westerners to avoid consuming arbitrary things, or in general.
         | Regardless, increase in consumption will arrive in the rest of
         | the world.
         | 
         | I think expanding access to contraceptives worldwide is
         | probably the greenest possible thing that can be done right
         | now. That's not coming from a perspective of anti-natalism
         | either. EDIT: use your words if you disagree, like adults. If
         | you can't even elucidate how, you should question your premise.
        
         | ianai wrote:
         | Being from the land of great red and green chile (spelled
         | correctly), I love legumes/pulses! I'd mix them with rice more
         | but potatoes and wheat (tortillas) go with my metabolism much
         | better.
         | 
         | I also love falafel though and find the texture close enough to
         | a burger for my uses.
         | 
         | Edit-nonetheless the mock up stuff is fun and fills needs. Love
         | me some "benevolent bacon".
        
         | reality_inspctr wrote:
         | you eat so many bugs all the time, ground up in food. this
         | dismissive old crank attitude is ignoring simple truth. also a
         | lot of the world happily eats bugs as a delicacy. they're not
         | whacky, you're being quick to frame something you don't know
         | much about as dismissible.
        
         | hammock wrote:
         | Beans + rice is easily the most common meal on the planet, as
         | the cheapest complete protein source around. We live in a
         | bubble, never mind saving the planet
        
           | sometimeshuman wrote:
           | A quick Google search reveals that beans are not a _complete_
           | , since they lack several essential amino acids.
           | 
           | Edit: correction, it appears that soybeans are the exception.
           | But when one thinks of having a serving of "beans and rice",
           | soybeans are unlikely to be the bean served.
        
             | wrycoder wrote:
             | Pinto beans and rice are complete, for example. The amino
             | acid deficiencies are complementary.
        
             | sannee wrote:
             | Surely you can just eat more beans until you get enough
             | methionine to satisfy your protein synthesis needs. We are
             | not (yet, in the western world) at the point of having to
             | eat a starvation diet (where the amino acid profile is
             | actually important, since you are trying to eat as little
             | as possible).
        
             | forgetfulness wrote:
             | That's why it's the beans+rice combination that's complete,
             | because they're complementary in composition.
             | 
             | But the truth is that you don't need to eat them in the
             | same meal, and most people don't have a shortage of grain
             | in their diets if they aren't going out of their way to
             | make it so. Porridge in the morning and lentils at lunch
             | and you've done it.
        
             | bch wrote:
             | beans != beans + rice;
             | 
             | See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33564109
        
               | sometimeshuman wrote:
               | My mistake, I had blindly dismissed rice since it is
               | commonly known to be a nutrient poor food. But several
               | sources confirm the parent post and your comment are
               | correct*. It's also too often repeated that a vegetable
               | based diets will be lacking essential amino acids which
               | seems like a gross falsehood now if you can get there
               | with two wildly available plants that make up a common
               | low-cost meal. I am baffled by the disconnect.
               | 
               | *I don't cite the source since I am unsure if there are
               | caveats or if the claim is controversial.
        
               | stonemetal12 wrote:
               | I think the disconnect is that for meat you don't have to
               | think about it. When it comes to plants, suddenly you
               | have to know something about what you are eating. There
               | are plenty of plant diets that are viable, you just have
               | to research a little bit.
               | 
               | Everyone always mentions beans and rice, but Potatoes by
               | themselves are a complete protein. Some of the essential
               | amino acids aren't found in high quantities in potatoes,
               | so you have to eat a lot of them if you go that route.
               | They are missing some vitamins and minerals as well, so
               | you have to add sweet potatoes if you don't want scurvy.
        
           | bch wrote:
           | > complete protein source
           | 
           | On the "complete protein" concept, by a famous popularizer of
           | plant-based protein-combining[0]
           | 
           | ----
           | 
           | There is no need to combine foods at individual meals.
           | 
           | "In 1971 I stressed protein complementarity because I assumed
           | that the only way to get enough protein ... was to create a
           | protein as usable by the body as animal protein. In combating
           | the myth that meat is the only way to get high-quality
           | protein, I reinforced another myth. I gave the impression
           | that in order to get enough protein without meat,
           | considerable care was needed in choosing foods. Actually, it
           | is much easier than I thought. With three important
           | exceptions, there is little danger of protein deficiency in a
           | plant food diet."
           | 
           | ---
           | 
           | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diet_for_a_Small_Planet
           | 
           | Edit: adjust description of what Lappe was popularizer of
        
             | metadat wrote:
             | Why did you quit there, leaving the 3 exceptions as a
             | cliffhanger!?
             | 
             | > The exceptions are diets very heavily dependent on [1]
             | fruit or on [2] some tubers, such as sweet potatoes or
             | cassava, or on [3] junk food (refined flours, sugars, and
             | fat).
             | 
             | This part could be important for some folks. :)
        
               | bch wrote:
               | I wanted you to tune in next week for the thrilling
               | conclusion? ;)
               | 
               | Thx for the amendment.
        
             | goethes_kind wrote:
             | Animal protein still seems to be of higher quality. Even
             | among rich vegans in first would countries, the children
             | comparatively less developed compared to their peers.
             | 
             | https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570677X
             | 1...
             | 
             | https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918?lo
             | g...
        
           | eYrKEC2 wrote:
           | Did you know that cows can up cycle agricultural waste into
           | protein? Human's can't eat corn stalks, for instance.
        
             | fullstick wrote:
             | We could upcycle agricultural waste by returning it to the
             | earth. Let it decompose and return nutrients to the soil.
        
               | wrycoder wrote:
               | We do that, after the cows are done with it.
        
         | jlg23 wrote:
         | > I think the main reason we don't hear more about just how
         | goddamn efficient a bowl of lentils and rice is, or oatmeal, is
         | because it's not sexy.
         | 
         | I consider food that can be mass-produced in those 71% of the
         | world's surface that cannot grow lentils or rice quite sexy
         | indeed.
        
         | Avicebron wrote:
         | Huge swathes of the human population doesn't eat that much
         | meat, India being my go to example of delicious vegetarian food
         | spanning a very very long time.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | rs999gti wrote:
           | > doesn't eat that much meat, India being my go to example
           | 
           | Indian/Pakistani food may be vegetarian but it tastes good
           | because of animal products like eggs, butter, cream, milk,
           | and cheese.
           | 
           | It's vegetarian but not vegan.
           | 
           | Source: I grew up eating this type of food daily
        
             | rs999gti wrote:
             | Edit: before you jump on me, yes I know Indian food has
             | spices. But the animal products are what add the richness
             | and savoriness to the food
        
               | valarauko wrote:
               | Plenty of Indian foods are already vegan or can be made
               | vegan with simple substitutions.
        
         | Kiro wrote:
         | There are lot of things we don't need to do. I hate lentils and
         | beans but love whacky food as you call it.
         | 
         | Taste is subjective.
        
         | dinosaurdynasty wrote:
         | (micro)-algae can be a really good source of long-chain
         | omega-3's (EPA/DHA), which are otherwise difficult to get in a
         | plant-based diet.
         | 
         | While beans and rice are pretty damn good (or what I tend to
         | do, beans and potatoes) it definitely isn't complete
         | nutritionally and there is pretty important stuff that's
         | missing or there isn't enough of (EPA/DHA, Vitamin D, Vitamin
         | B12, etc).
         | 
         | Variety is also good just because of allergies and
         | oversensitivites to certain foods and even just taste
         | preference. Just about anything is better for the planet than
         | meat!
        
         | forgetfulness wrote:
         | It's like the phenomenon of businessmen and politicians
         | preferring to dazzle the public with implausible gadgetbahn
         | concepts, instead of opting for presently-existing trains, of
         | the various types that actually exist.
         | 
         | The concrete existence of train technology causes the ball to
         | get pushed further than the the 3D render stage to the far less
         | exciting endeavors of drafting up projects, gathering political
         | support, securing funding, doing environmental impact studies,
         | battling NIMBYs in court, and may end up undercutting the
         | bottom line of auto manufacturers that could make campaign
         | contributions, and won't line up the pockets of visionary
         | consultants writing reports on how other solutions to car
         | traffic and long commutes could be dreamed up.
         | 
         | https://www.cat-bus.com/2017/12/gadgetbahn/
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | Gordonjcp wrote:
         | That's great if you live in a part of the world where you can
         | grow lentils and rice.
         | 
         | Even down south here at 57degN it's still more ecologically
         | sound to eat meat and potatoes, because potatoes grow pretty
         | well and tough heathery grasses and sedges grow pretty well,
         | and we can't eat those but sheep can.
        
         | dr_dshiv wrote:
         | I would totally imagine a beans and rice drive-through focused
         | on getting healthy family dinner for lowest possible price.
         | Call it "Bowls" and allow upsells on toppings.
        
         | stevenkkim wrote:
         | Also, can you imagine the positive impact on health and well-
         | being?
         | 
         | Also, my impression is that at least in the U.S. there isn't a
         | shortage of farmable land. It's just that most of it is used to
         | grow corn and soybeans, and most of the corn is being used to
         | feed cattle and make ethanol.
         | 
         | I think a lot more work needs to be done to show how tasty
         | plant-based foods can be. Anecdote: growing up, I hated brussel
         | sprouts b/c we ate them boiled; now I love them oven-roasted.
         | Salads can be amazing if a bit of effort is put into them (more
         | than just iceberg lettuce and dressing).
        
           | marricks wrote:
           | I try not to post too many empty "I totally agree" comments
           | but man, brussel sprouts are amazing.
           | 
           | Who ever popularized boiling them is a damn fool. Pan friend
           | then oven roasted, just amazing. Best thing in the world.
           | 
           | Also you're right on all points, but god, love me some
           | sprouts.
        
           | pfarrell wrote:
           | In addition to changing to roasting, and depending on how old
           | you are, brussels sprouts may have literally been different
           | when you were a kid [0]. Dutch biologists worked to alter the
           | sprouts we eat and have changed the bitterness. That's why
           | they've had such a renaissance. I never had them as a kid,
           | but I distinctly remember my brother making them at
           | Thanksgiving around 2010 and we were shocked at how much we
           | enjoyed them and couldn't figure out why they had such a bad
           | reputation in pop culture.
           | 
           | 0: https://www.mentalfloss.com/posts/do-brussels-sprouts-
           | taste-...
        
             | stevenkkim wrote:
             | Very cool article, thanks for sharing!
        
       | scythe wrote:
       | Algae has what I sometimes call the "hempseed problem": it tastes
       | awful. Hempseeds are highly productive, nutritious, and smash
       | almost every other whole plant food on the crucial protein:fiber
       | ratio, coming in at 12:1. The only problem is, you have to eat
       | them.
       | 
       | Japan pretty much identified every kind of seaweed that you can
       | eat without puking a thousand years ago and the list is not long.
       | A tablespoon of spirulina is a great way to ruin a smoothie,
       | never mind that it mostly comes from the disappearing Lake Chad.
       | 
       | So it's heavily processed, and it could certainly get into food
       | products that way, but nobody will notice -- or care -- that
       | they're eating algae-derived food products. If you doubt that,
       | just look up where xanthan gum comes from, or consider that
       | _Aspergillus niger_ is the primary source of citric acid.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | bob234 wrote:
        
       | stuff4ben wrote:
       | All of the people who are saying they'd never eat it and will
       | stick with their beef/chicken/pork are the same kind that said
       | hell no to EVs. They'll die out and the world will adapt to a
       | changing food economy just as we did with the changing fuel
       | economy.
        
         | BlargMcLarg wrote:
         | EVs are barely making a dent into the problem, even coupled
         | with everyone going fully vegan (a pipedream). The economy
         | still continues to occupy any new room available under "we must
         | grow" incentive.
         | 
         | You'll die out with the others at this rate of token changes.
        
         | vinyl7 wrote:
         | Eat the bugs, live in a pod, own nothing and be happy
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | hunterb123 wrote:
         | "All of the people who have different life choices than me will
         | die out one day"
         | 
         | Is that all cultures you're waiting to die out that are using
         | ICE vehicles and eating chicken, or just Western peoples?
         | 
         | Lots of babies and and future babies who live those lifestyles
         | you're going to have to wait to die...
        
       | tianqi wrote:
        
       | mberning wrote:
       | More propaganda from the "eat bugs" and "you'll own nothing and
       | be happy" cabal.
        
         | blacksmith_tb wrote:
         | Eating seaweed and bugs sounds a lot better than starving to
         | death? Especially since in both cases they appear to be just
         | intermediate sources of nutrients that will get turned into
         | innocuous food-a-likes like burgers and bacon. Sure, the
         | cynical take is no one would willing eat them straight up
         | (though obviously nori is around sushi, hijiki is in soup etc.)
         | but I am not too put off by the idea...
        
           | mberning wrote:
           | False dichotomy. Just like green anything. Kill the planet or
           | go back to pre-industrial living standards. How about no. Why
           | not use our talent and resources to find ways to increase the
           | standards of living while also improving their affordability
           | and lessening their impact on the environment.
        
       | opsec0001 wrote:
       | Algae? With all that sh*t we have in the oceans? I'll pass
        
       | dsp_person wrote:
       | I was looking into algea/spirulina for B12, but found some
       | sources indicating it is not a bioavailable form of B12, and also
       | prevents real B12 from being absorbed.
       | 
       | I'd be interested to know any counter research to this.
       | 
       | > almost all algae revealed vitamin B12 analogues instead of the
       | real thing. Analogues are not only ineffective, but also
       | potentially dangerous. Most researchers have consequently
       | dismissed algae as a B12 source and recommend natural B12
       | supplements as a safe alternative
       | 
       | > In order to properly understand the discussion about the B12
       | content of algae, it is important to first take a closer look at
       | analogues. Also known as pseudo B12, analogues are molecules
       | which are so chemically similar to real B12 that they bond to the
       | same transport molecule. In contrast, however, they have no
       | vitamin effect on the body whatsoever. This is detrimental to
       | health, as only real B12 that is bound to this specific transport
       | molecule can be used by the body.
       | 
       | https://www.b12-vitamin.com/algae/
        
         | manmal wrote:
         | Why not just take B12 produced with microbes (= most
         | supplements)? Those are considered vegan. Trying to get B12
         | from algae sounds unnecessarily complicated, considering our
         | B12 has in all of our history been of microbial origin.
         | 
         | But I also wouldn't shun algae just because they occupy some
         | B12 transporters. There's all kinds of metabolic tradeoffs with
         | every kind of food, and we are designed to tolerate that. Most
         | metabolic pathways are 4-5x redundant IIRC.
        
         | coinbasetwwa wrote:
         | Yep. People need meat.
        
           | manmal wrote:
           | B12 absorption is finicky, and meats contain rather small
           | amounts. Injections and sublinguals are actually better at
           | increasing levels than meat.
        
             | zmaurelius wrote:
             | Organ meats such as beef liver provide a significant amount
             | of B12. If you are just eating muscle meat, then you will
             | have to eat a lot.
        
               | manmal wrote:
               | Excess liver consumption is a risk factor for vitamin A
               | toxicity though, and the B12 amount varies wildly. Red
               | meat consumption also increases cancer risk. It's safer
               | to take supplements from a reputable source.
        
           | uxcolumbo wrote:
           | Guess what? Farm animals need B12 supplements.
           | 
           | So why not just take B12 supplements ourselves? Cut out the
           | middleman and as a bonus lower stress on our biosphere and
           | reduce our carbon footprint.
        
           | newman555 wrote:
           | For B12? You do know that animals don't produce B12, but
           | microorganisms (that can be found in soil and untreated
           | water) and that farmed animals eat B12 supplemented food?
           | 
           | So no, people don't need meat. Not for B12, or for proteins
           | or for iron or for anything else.
           | 
           | Do people _want_ to eat meat? That's a different story.
        
             | knaekhoved wrote:
             | Why do vegans almost uniformly look so scrawny and fucked
             | up if Veganism doesn't cause nutritional deficiencies?
        
           | CaptainNegative wrote:
           | They also need Hi-C Flashin' Fruit Punch because rib eye is
           | low in ascorbic acid.
        
             | version_five wrote:
             | You can get that from eating whale skin, much tastier and
             | healthier
        
       | kethinov wrote:
       | I saw that episode of Battlestar Galactica. It was generally
       | unpopular with the people.
        
       | terramars wrote:
       | love foraging seaweed and eating it in a bunch of different
       | things. large scale consumption of it is pretty difficult unless
       | you're somewhere that conveniently has both a lot of good stuff
       | locally and has a food culture that knows how to prepare it.
       | cooking with eg kelp is not trivial. there are probably lots of
       | interesting industrial and processed seaweed products that could
       | be very good, especially the animal feed applications, but i
       | think these kinds of articles overlook the very real problems
       | associated with building cuisine from ingredients that aren't
       | widely adopted.
        
       | JackFr wrote:
       | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headli...
        
       | beckingz wrote:
       | Yes it tastes great in sushi and miso soup.
        
         | rs999gti wrote:
         | And ice cream too
        
           | xxr wrote:
           | Do you mean ice cream where it's the central flavor, or in
           | the form of carrageenans as a thickener?
        
       | Ekaros wrote:
       | As meat eater I'm not wholly against it. If the texture and taste
       | is palatable why not.
        
       | petamask wrote:
       | Seaweed is a staple ingredient in Korea. We eat it in all sorts
       | of ways. I remember being shocked by the smell of rotting
       | seaweeds on a Welsh beach. Never saw it happening in Korea. We
       | eat those!
        
       | la64710 wrote:
       | No
        
       | jansan wrote:
       | There was a mid sized scam by a company praising algae as the
       | future in Germany a few years ago.The company claimed that they
       | would soon produce huge quantities of algae for nutrition,
       | cosmetics, fuel, etc.. They collected money from private
       | investors (which how they did it was illegal), but they had
       | nothing but a small prototype that did not even work well, is was
       | all smoke an mirrors. A very nice but gullible friend of mine
       | lost about 5000EUR in that.
       | 
       | Since then I am VERY sceptical about articles praising algae as
       | the next big thing.
        
       | UncleOxidant wrote:
       | https://archive.ph/0tg3q
        
       | strangattractor wrote:
       | I thought Kale was Algae - good to know.
        
       | oifjsidjf wrote:
       | While real sea-grown algae might be light what will happen is the
       | same as with modern animal and plant farming: animals are fed
       | corn which makes their meat sub-par nutrientwise and most of the
       | soil for plants is depleted.
       | 
       | So if we now grow algae in "reactors" their nutrient profile will
       | be artificial and out of line of their natural counterparts, thus
       | making them no better than any other modern highly processed
       | food, so we might as well stick to rice and potatoes in that
       | case...
        
         | mattwest wrote:
         | What do you mean sub-par nutrientwise? In terms of average
         | health outcomes, does grassfed beef show a significant benefit
         | compared to feedlot finished beef?
        
           | galangalalgol wrote:
           | I've seen no direct studies. But there seems plenty of
           | evidence that the fatty acid profiles between the two are
           | very different. And the profile in grassfed is closer to in
           | line with what is currently recommended.
        
             | cowmoo728 wrote:
             | https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-
             | 2...
             | 
             | https://doaj.org/article/94b48d8e1f40488992f3534900e8f0f1
             | 
             | * Lower in total fat
             | 
             | * Higher in omega-3 and CLA
             | 
             | * Higher in Vitamin A, E, K
             | 
             | * Higher in polyphenols and beneficial plant compounds
        
         | colordrops wrote:
         | Is that speculation or is there a proven difference with farmed
         | algae?
        
         | goodpoint wrote:
         | > So if we now grow algae in "reactors" their nutrient profile
         | will be artificial and out of line of their natural
         | counterparts
         | 
         | This is wild speculation. Plenty of scientific research shows
         | that farming plants, algae, and producing fermented food in a
         | controlled environment can be even healthier than "natural"
         | food.
        
           | midislack wrote:
           | Can you link us to a half dozen or more peer-reviewed studies
           | proving this?
        
       | jerlam wrote:
       | People have posted some Soylent Green jokes; but no joke, the
       | real-life Soylent company added algae to their drink in 2016, and
       | it caused some illness, eventually being removed:
       | 
       | https://www.eater.com/2016/11/7/13553610/soylent-sick-algae
        
       | socialismisok wrote:
       | We already eat various forms of algae. Some are quite nutritious,
       | some give us tummy troubles, some at excellent sinks for CO2.
       | 
       | I'm very curious if we could mass manufacture something like
       | algae and then pyrolize it to get fuel and solid carbon to
       | sequester.
       | 
       | If we find some good ideas for kelp, there's whole coastlines
       | whose kelp forests have been decimated. We could start
       | propagating and sustainably harvesting it and provide an
       | incredibly rich coastal habitat.
        
         | RajT88 wrote:
         | I have seen some youtubers make kelp pickles. They seem to find
         | it delicious.
         | 
         | https://youtu.be/SXhXK2CcCic
        
         | throwuwu wrote:
         | > Some are quite nutritious, some give us tummy troubles, some
         | at excellent sinks for CO2
         | 
         | You forgot some are potent neurotoxins
        
           | calibas wrote:
           | That's "blue-green algae", a type of bacteria, that produces
           | neurotoxins. Way different than the kinds of algae they're
           | talking about here.
        
         | CuriouslyC wrote:
         | That coastal habitat could also be used to support stocks of
         | fish that people will actually want to eat.
        
           | ajmurmann wrote:
           | Why not both? A few years ago I saw a promising project
           | focused around floating containers with algae and oysters
           | that also provided valuable habitat for fish
        
         | yawgmoth wrote:
         | I recently bought an Algae Powered CO2 scrubber. No idea how
         | effective it is, I wonder what the easiest way to measure is?
        
           | slavik81 wrote:
           | The CO2 that it absorbs has to be stored. Measure the change
           | in weight.
        
           | ajmurmann wrote:
           | I looked into this for a few minutes when a huge algae CO2
           | scrubber in am airport was discussed a few weeks back. The
           | short is that it does close to nothing:
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33173230
           | 
           | It's too bad because one of my weird dreams would be to have
           | a vat of genetically modified algae in my house that removes
           | CO2 and turns into some kind of Soylent.
        
           | antisthenes wrote:
           | A CO2 meter? ...
        
             | yawgmoth wrote:
             | Yeah! I was thinking "ah the room isn't sealed, nor is the
             | house for that matter" but I can probably get interesting
             | measurements with a simple CO2 meter.
        
               | NavinF wrote:
               | CO2 meter and a 30 gallon garbage bag to seal the meter
               | inside along with the algae?
        
               | K2h wrote:
               | If you try to measure CO2 usage, be aware of the
               | fineprint in your sensor, depending on the sensor it may
               | just take the lowest reading over some period and self
               | calibrate (incorrectly) as normal air CO2 concentration
               | (~400ppm)
               | 
               | <https://www.extech.com/products/CO240>
               | 
               |  _Automatic CO2 Baseline Calibration (ABC)_ _The ABC
               | algorithm continually tracks the sensor's lowest reading
               | over a fixed time interval and slowly corrects for any
               | long-term drift (as compared to the expected fresh air
               | value of 400ppm). The ABC period is 15 days, during which
               | the ABC function default is always on._
        
       | the_third_wave wrote:
       | Is it time to start eating people? Clearly it is:
       | 
       |  _In the year 2022, the cumulative effects of overpopulation,
       | pollution, and some apparent climate catastrophe have caused
       | severe worldwide shortages of food, water and housing. There are
       | 40 million people in New York City alone, where only the city 's
       | elite can afford spacious apartments, clean water, and natural
       | food, and even then at horrendously high prices. The homes of the
       | elite usually include concubines who are referred to as
       | "furniture" and serve the tenants as slaves.
       | 
       | Within the city lives NYPD detective Frank Thorn and his aged
       | friend Sol Roth, a highly intelligent analyst, referred to as a
       | "Book". Roth remembers the world when it had animals and real
       | food, and possesses a small library of reference materials to
       | assist Thorn. Thorn is tasked with investigating the murder of
       | the wealthy and influential William R. Simonson, and quickly
       | learns that Simonson had been assassinated and was a board member
       | of Soylent Industries._
       | 
       | https://archive.org/details/soylent-green-1973_20210310
        
       | heywherelogingo wrote:
       | I don't mind, but it seems the root problem might be the people
       | chanting that we need more people to increase GDP.
        
       | poszlem wrote:
       | I cannot understand how it is possible that the phrases like
       | "food security" instead of "hunger" became used widespread
       | organically seemingly out of nowhere. Genuine question, can
       | someone explain that to me without resorting to some sort of
       | conspiracy theories?
        
         | woodruffw wrote:
         | They encompass different things: hunger is a physical state,
         | while food security is an economic, logistical, and
         | environmental property.
         | 
         | You don't really need a conspiracy to prefer more precise
         | terms.
        
         | im3w1l wrote:
         | My guess is that recently lots of people have come to associate
         | hunger with their own failed attempts at losing weight rather
         | than with poverty and desperation. Saying that you want to "end
         | hunger" is not a message that will resonate with them.
        
         | jackmott42 wrote:
         | preferred words change constantly, its all senseless, but it
         | won't stop, and it doesn't matter. just go with it, or be angry
         | all the time.
        
         | rr808 wrote:
         | Maybe the distrinction comes from the West where food charities
         | help out with food for hunger, but they aren't in danger of
         | starving to death like many 3rd world countries.
        
         | dimitrios1 wrote:
         | Perhaps -- my guess -- its the recognition that they are
         | fundamentally two different problems.
         | 
         | Hunger of the previous generations was mostly due to countries
         | not having enough agriculture or imports to feed their
         | population.
         | 
         | Today with modern farming and agriculture methods, hunger is
         | mostly a distribution issue, rather than a we don't have enough
         | food issue, so now food security is used as a more general
         | term. My hunch is driven by -- may be getting the exact
         | specifics wrong - that countries like America throw away enough
         | food daily to satisfy much of the remaining world hunger.
        
         | Enginerrrd wrote:
         | I think they refer to different things.
         | 
         | I could ask why use the term "Hunger" rather than "Starvation"
         | or "malnutrition" etc.
         | 
         | Food security I think of as a measure of the risk associated of
         | available nutrient supplies not being adequate to meet the need
         | (not the market demand, as that may differ) of people in a
         | particular locality.
         | 
         | Hunger is an end state feeling in a human-being when they feel
         | the need to eat.
         | 
         | You can have terrible food security and no hunger if there is
         | tremendous risk of mass starvation due to small unforseen
         | disruptions in supply, but there is existing supply and
         | forecasted supply to meet demand if all goes well.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | Nowado wrote:
         | Nation states don't get hungry. Similarly to 'target
         | neutralization' being called inhuman description of murder,
         | both terms are about exactly what they say they are.
         | 
         | People being hungry near you is an 'individual problem', but
         | with police intact you're roughly fine (under assumptions). If
         | your country is facing food security crisis, it will likely
         | spread to other domains and you are not fine.
        
         | goodpoint wrote:
         | They are not the same thing. Food insecurity is broader than
         | just hunger.
         | 
         | https://foodforward.org/food-security/what-is-food-insecurit...
         | 
         | No need for silly conspiracy theories.
        
         | slothtrop wrote:
         | For motte-and-bailey reasons. Food insecurity in my country
         | means not being able to access food in "socially acceptable
         | ways". It has nothing to do with hunger, it means collecting
         | money from the govt or food stamps etc. But when invoked, it's
         | meant to convey that a large fraction of people are going
         | hungry, incidentally often calling for an expansion of spending
         | which would also not reduce food insecurity because by
         | definition it's not "socially acceptable". Better wages and
         | employment addresses it.
        
         | poszlem wrote:
         | So, to clarify, I am not arguing that food insecurity and
         | hunger are two separate things (even though to me it still
         | sounds like some sort of newspeak). My question was more about
         | the speed with which that term became deployed everywhere.
        
           | bobthepanda wrote:
           | They are slightly different.
           | 
           | Hunger, in the strictest sense, is about a lack of calories.
           | 
           | This made sense as a metric to track, when the issue was
           | almost entirely people who starved to death. Now however,
           | first in the developed world and also in many developing
           | countries the issue is also calorie quality, usually a lack
           | of access to non-junk foods. You can now be both malnourished
           | and obese.
        
           | woodruffw wrote:
           | I think it's more likely that you just didn't notice it.
           | 
           | My lay observation is that "food security" has been the
           | standard term in non-profit/NGO contexts for at least 15
           | years, while "hunger" is still colloquial. My guess for why
           | is precision.
        
             | ryandrake wrote:
             | Maybe it's the same Euphemism Treadmill that George Carlin
             | performed[1] about, how "Shell Shock" evolved into the
             | softer, jargony "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder"
             | 
             | 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuEQixrBKCc
        
               | woodruffw wrote:
               | The euphemism treadmill is real, but this is the exact
               | opposite: we've gone _from_ a dated euphemism to a
               | medical term.
        
               | strbean wrote:
               | I think "shell shock" vs. "PTSD" is a poor example of
               | euphemistic language. The name "shell shock" is just
               | inaccurate and misleading. It's a product of the poor
               | understanding we had at the time. It would be confusing
               | to explain how someone got shell shock from sexual
               | assault, for example.
               | 
               | The intermediate names Carlin mentions, however, are
               | absolute euphemistic bullshit. "Battle fatigue" and
               | "operational exhaustion" were strictly rebrands with the
               | intent of minimizing the problem.
        
         | jabroni_salad wrote:
         | I first heard about it in an economics podcast about food
         | deserts so I figure it came from that realm.
         | 
         | The entire planet is 3 missed meals away from total anarchy.
         | The reason it is prominent (IMO) is that any politician who
         | fails to deliver on food may as well dumpster the rest of their
         | platform. Ensuring the acquisition and availability of food is
         | every country's #1 priority, and "food security" covers all of
         | the political and logistical and agricultural activities that
         | need to happen for that priority to be delivered.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | tantalor wrote:
         | > became used widespread organically seemingly out of nowhere
         | 
         | Except, it didn't?
         | 
         | https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=...
         | 
         | Just because you are just now noticing something common doesn't
         | mean it recently became common.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | hammock wrote:
           | I appreciate the effort to apply data. There are alternative
           | facts, though: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=
           | world+hunger%2...
        
             | Shared404 wrote:
             | I'd like to take this opportunity to point out a common
             | statistical manipulation - extending an axis far longer
             | than is at all relevant to the data, creating a misleading
             | interpretation of a slope.
             | 
             | https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=world+hunger%
             | 2... is a much more readable and accurate graph.
             | 
             | Note how both are ~equivalent for a majority of the time,
             | barring 1943 - 1951 (slight edge for food security) and
             | 1960-1970 (larger lead for 'world hunger'). At 1970, food
             | insecurity takes and maintains control.
             | 
             | This is likely because it - as discussed in the rest of the
             | thread - encompasses more, and is a more useful term for
             | scholarly discussion.
        
               | Sapere_Aude wrote:
               | Right around the time when the Trilateral Commission, the
               | Club of Rome and other elitist think tanks / NGOs were
               | founded to push globalization, development and such
               | ideas.
        
             | tantalor wrote:
             | Great find!
             | 
             | Sounds like this term became popular in the 1970s. That was
             | a while ago :)
        
         | nells wrote:
         | Because it's not organic. Of course if you reject "conspiracy
         | theories" then you will reject the answer.
        
       | rmujica wrote:
       | In Chile is common to eat Cochayuyo, a type of kelp without air
       | bladders [0]. Some people are dismissive about its taste, but
       | personally I love it on my Charquican [1].
       | 
       | It is very cheap and readily available at most fish markets
       | through all the country.
       | 
       | [0]:
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durvillaea_antarctica#Chilean_...
       | 
       | [1]: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charquic%C3%A1n
        
         | neves wrote:
         | Incas used algae as a source of iodine to prevent
         | hypothyroidism. There was a sound commerce between the
         | mountains and the shore.
        
       | UncleOxidant wrote:
       | I recently bought some red dulse from a seaweed farm on the
       | Oregon coast (Oregon Seaweed in Garibaldi, Oregon). Bought it
       | right from the farm. The guy who was growing it said it makes a
       | great bacon substitute. I tried frying it up and while it didn't
       | taste much like bacon to me (maybe I needed some liquid smoke?)
       | it was an umami bomb. I had it in a sandwich and it was actually
       | pretty good.
        
         | telesilla wrote:
         | Try using a dehydrator, it's delicious in salads and adds a
         | crunch.
        
         | tejohnso wrote:
         | I enjoy the dulse leaf product from these guys
         | https://www.amdulse.com/products
         | 
         | Not as a substitute for something else, but as a snack on its
         | own, for which there is no substitute. Unfortunately prices
         | have nearly doubled in a little over a year.
        
       | dirtyid wrote:
       | Are there big seaweed / algae boards funding test kitchens to try
       | to mainstream products like Norway did for salmon sushi?
        
       | nells wrote:
       | I will not eat the bugs and I will not eat the algae.
        
         | kibwen wrote:
         | Do you eat lobster or crab? Then I've got some bad news for you
         | about eating bugs...
        
           | Minor49er wrote:
           | What's the bad news?
        
             | chihuahua wrote:
             | It's a dramatic way of stating that lobster and crab are
             | members of the phylum _Arthropoda_ , which also includes
             | scorpions, centipedes, and butterflies.
        
           | ask_b123 wrote:
           | Hey, I don't eat lobster nor crab.
        
         | mensetmanusman wrote:
         | I will eat everything you don't eat.
        
       | asow92 wrote:
       | As soon as someone says X tastes like Y I get a little
       | suspicious. Can't we just come up with a new notion of X unto
       | itself so we all don't have to pretend that X tastes like Y?
        
         | boomboomsubban wrote:
         | How do you describe an unfamiliar taste to someone without
         | comparisons?
        
           | asow92 wrote:
           | I would use descriptors such as savory, crispy, etc.
        
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