[HN Gopher] Eye contact marks the rise and fall of shared attent... ___________________________________________________________________ Eye contact marks the rise and fall of shared attention in conversation Author : yamrzou Score : 153 points Date : 2022-11-20 15:03 UTC (7 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.pnas.org) (TXT) w3m dump (www.pnas.org) | tgv wrote: | The abstract oversells it, as usual. The effects are small, and | the modelling is loose. Other studies have shown that gestures | can play a role in turn taking, and that we are capable of | predicting when the speaker is going to finish simply by | listening. Eye contact may be just one more factor weighing in. | lvl102 wrote: | I am not gonna lie, I don't look at people in the eyes because I | can sometimes see that they're lying to my face. You don't need | to make such a personal connection every single time you engage | in a conversation with people. Most people are not worth that | type of attention. | Invictus0 wrote: | This is sad | MichaelCollins wrote: | > _I don't look at people in the eyes because I can sometimes | see that they're lying to my face._ | | Ignorance is bliss I guess? I prefer to know. Usually I don't | call people out, but I still prefer to know. | iwillbenice wrote: | sdwr wrote: | I love the direction, drilling down into conversation mechanics. | Very cool that technology is enabling this kind of deep dive. | It's a very conservative article tho, not making any big points. | | I'd like to see a stab at a theory that explains how conversation | actually works. Intuitively, it feels like a hack built on top of | systems designed for acting in the world. | | I think social position is written on the face. The labiofacial | folds measure exclusion (deep lines indicate social | isolation/discomfort, no crease indicates strong social ties). | Feels tied in with nervous laughter as well. | | Eye openness | oblak wrote: | First year phrenology student? | | Seriously, though. As I get older, I am starting to think there | might actually be a strong correlation between how people look | and act. What I don't know for sure is which is first. Some is | obviously nature bur nurture is obviously a thing, too. | MichaelCollins wrote: | > _I am starting to think there might actually be a strong | correlation between how people look and act._ | | I think the way people act influences the way their | appearance is perceived in very subtle ways. A sketchy liar | could have exactly the same bone structure as an honest man, | but the sketchy liar will be perceived as less honest due to | almost imperceptible differences in body language, the way | they hold their facial muscles, etc. The result of these | subtle differences can be detected with a vague sensation of | _" this guy is sketchy, he's probably about to lie to me."_ | | Also I think there is an element of truth to the old wive's | tail of "your face is going to get stuck like that". People | who frequently have malicious facial expressions in private | will find themselves having malicious facial expressions when | they don't mean to, when interacting with the people they | intend to deceive. Maybe out of pure habit, or maybe because | those muscles are just getting more exercise. Somebody who | often has a lopsided smirk will develop muscles on one side | of their face more than the other, and eventually they can't | help but to smirk by default. | surfpel wrote: | The brain is a physical structure. So is it inconceivable | that some genes may code for phenotypes in both the brain and | external appearance, or have some indirect purely biological | relationship? I'm not suggesting that this would account for | a significant portion of the correlation between external | appearance and behavior (if any at all), but maybe it's | enough to be picked up subconsciously. | | Domestication syndrome seems to suggest a link. [1] | | 1 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_syndrome | nottorp wrote: | Maybe for normies. | | Could the sales type extroverts stop setting standards for | everyone please? | | I never bother with eye contact. Whats important is what they're | saying. | khazhoux wrote: | The majority of comments here are from people (including | myself) who hate eye contact. | marginalien wrote: | It is for that reason why online meeting tools like Zoom, MS | Teams, etc., should provide an option to hide your own video from | yourself - I believe one's own video is a massive source of | distraction from concentrating on other persons in a | conversation. | stevage wrote: | Most of them do? Certainly Zoom does. | khazhoux wrote: | Teams does not. So annoying... I can't stop from looking at | myself talking. | marginalien wrote: | Same here. | | From time to time I observe where other meeting | participants look at and I feel like this is very, very | common (you can tell by the specific corner a person is | looking at in some of these applications) | yolo3000 wrote: | The moment I make real eye contact I hope for the conversation to | end quickly, because I can't disconnect the eye contact. I try to | offset my gaze a bit, but for some reason my mind will try to | make eye contact again, it's hard to concentrate and keep my eyes | from making contact again. And when I make eye contact, it's like | I see straight inside the person. Now that I think of it, this | differs from person to person, it feels more weird when the other | person is not someone close to me. | amelius wrote: | Is there a maximum duration of eye contact (after which things | get awkward)? | nickjj wrote: | I don't think so. | | In person I tend to look into people's eyes for mostly the | whole conversation (easily 95% of the time) when I'm either | listening or talking minus natural breaks to react to a noise | or event that warrants looking away. I've had really long chats | like this where I never got a hint someone was weirded out. | | Honestly I couldn't even imagine talking with someone without | looking at them. In my mind that would be one of the rudest | things you could do, especially if they're the one talking. I | also wonder if this comes down to how you feel about yourself. | I think when you're looking at someone's eyes you know what | they're looking at it. For me, knowing where they're looking | makes me more relaxed. | | I'm in the US and don't recall ever being brought up a certain | way, it just "feels" right to do the above. | huqedato wrote: | I am one of those that can communicate effectively but cannot | make eye contact with the other party. Simply can't. I never | could. If I try to look him/her/them in the eyes I am loosing | control, can't find my words, losing the train of thought and | focus. This inability brought me a lot of disadvantages in time. | For example, I've been underperforming at all interviews and oral | exams. | mradek wrote: | I am terrible at eye contact. First of all my eyeball FOV is set | to like 60 and I wear glasses so when people are too close it's | hard for me to make eye contact because I just see their whole | face lol. Also when I talk to some people who make strong eye | contact I feel like they're looking into my soul and it's | uncomfortable. | | I know it's a me problem, just my experience tho lol. | p0nce wrote: | For me eye contact is basically aggression. I don't like doing | it, and I don't like people thinking it means some kind of | authenticity. | Waterluvian wrote: | I suspect eye contact is rather engrained in our species. It's | a very important part of communication, or so I've been told | and experienced. | | I've definitely seen people disadvantaged by being unwilling or | unable to look others in the eyes while having a conversation. | But I'm not sure we should go as far as discouraging it because | some people feel aggressed by being looked at. | | At the same time we can all endeavour to be more understanding | that people not being able to make eye contact doesn't | necessarily mean much. | lamontcg wrote: | > I suspect eye contact is rather engrained in our species. | It's a very important part of communication, or so I've been | told and experienced. | | Except as has been pointed out several times in this thread, | the two most populous countries in the world consider it | rude, which means your opinion is probably a minority opinion | worldwide and not really so ingrained. | stevezsa8 wrote: | Keep in mind that in some cultures eye-contact is avoided: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_contact#Cultural_differenc... | mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: | I should move there immediately. | BigRedDog1669 wrote: | I support you brother | dagmx wrote: | Yeah coming from a culture where you were taught not to make | eye contact and then going to a country where it's rude to not | look someone in the eye was very jarring. | | I still have to basically look at someone's temple to get by, | even a decade later. The discomfort of making eye contact is | just so ingrained now. | stevezsa8 wrote: | Yeah this is a common issue for people who move across | cultures. | | I had a boss who said he only hires a certain ethnic group | because they always take on more work and never say no. | | He had 2 of these people end up in hospital and a formal | accusation of bullying against him... my conclusion was, he'd | narrowed on a culture that is averse to social challenge / | conflict. Where saying "no" would be socially unacceptable. | | But he wasn't aware of the flip-side... that the manager is | then responsible for judging the situation and not making | direct requests that are impossible to refuse. | js2 wrote: | Ask Culture meets Guess Culture: | | https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground- | bet... | a1445c8b wrote: | I <3 you, Hacker News. | throwawaysleep wrote: | > But he wasn't aware of the flip-side... that the manager | is then responsible for judging the situation and not | making direct requests that are impossible to refuse. | | You assume he cares. Assuming the person across from you | gives a crap about you is a regularly fatal one. | | Humans are not basically good. They are basically greedy. | RHSeeger wrote: | Most humans are both good (empathy is a strong thing) and | greedy (wanting what's best for yourself and those are | you close to is also a strong incentive). Balancing those | two, sometimes opposing, desires is part of being human. | | It's worth noting that they're not always opposing. | Sometimes empathy makes us feel better when others feel | good, and the negative impact on ourselves can be more | than countered by the good feeling from making others | happier. | MichaelCollins wrote: | Most humans are basically good. A significant minority | aren't, maybe about 10%. Enough that you should never | ignore the possibility the other person is a psycho, but | few enough that you should never assume everybody else is | a psycho. | | Also, psychos tend to concentrate in certain places. If | you're in a board room, or hanging out with a bunch of | surgeons, perhaps it's rational to assume everybody else | there is a psycho. | dagmx wrote: | Yeah unfortunately I see that a ton as an Indian myself , | where we've been taught to be submissive. | | Many of my other Indian coworkers are always too scared to | push back in any form, and many of my Indian friends back | in India would work till the early hours of the morning | regularly. | | I'm lucky in the sense that I know to push back often when | something doesn't feel right or is illogical to me. | Ironically I was often chided in high school for that as | teachers would suggest that this would be bad for my | career. It's actually been the best thing for it, letting | me become system architects at multiple large companies. | But I see where they were coming from, in that the same | attitude would have burned me if I'd stayed. | BaudouinVH wrote: | (unless you are somewhere on the autism spectrum) | 121110987654321 wrote: | As we age, maybe prior experience coalescing as 'wisdom' begins | to play a more active role in our day to day decision making? | That wisdom manifesting in more of a consciously aware way... | | Whereas maybe we once used to (passively or actively) make | important judgement calls about a persons broader character based | on certain physical attributes such as the uniqueness of their | face, our wisdom says it just doesn't matter in quite the way we | maybe once thought. One of the biggest lessons I learned early on | when starting in the tech industry is absolutely never assume | anything about anyone based on appearance. We've all fallen for | that before! | | This is industry dependent because for example, if we're talking | about the fashion industry then things are different. I | digress... | | Regarding the body language and signaling by extension of | appearance in American culture it can be used as an measure of | certain aspects of someone's personality - not necessarily bad in | the lack-of-eye-contact scenario, but we know it's a lot harder | for someone to maintain the impression of engagement throughout | inattentive interactions. Eye to eye is engaging, anything else | is less. | | However, since it's about establishing trust and respect when it | comes to a new business relationship, at least in America, | there's a sense of 'can I trust this person', that's rooted in | fear. So if we're talking about something important presumably | with potentially painful financial or reputational ramifications | - then you tell me if it matters that this person is unwilling, | or unable to look into your eyes? Does the inability to match | ones gaze lead itself to more or less inherent trustworthiness? | mberning wrote: | Maybe I'm a weirdo but I tend to look at peoples mouths more than | their eyes. I'm not hard of hearing, but I feel like it helps me | follow conversations better. | stevezsa8 wrote: | The human body is giving non-verbal cues in many different | ways. Maybe you've found something that works well for you. | csa wrote: | > I tend to look at peoples mouths more than their eyes | | Same. | | I've done this since I was a child. | | A side benefit is that I have become half way decent at reading | lips. | | I learned at some point (teens?) to look at my conversation | partner's eyes in certain situations, but it's not my default. | samtho wrote: | I actually found out I rely on lip reading during the pandemic | when everyone was wearing masks and I couldn't understand about | 2/3 people I was engaging with. | VancouverMan wrote: | When most people are asked to consider the accessibility | problems that masking causes, they often don't realize that | it extends beyond just the person wearing the mask. | | Like you just described, somebody else wearing a mask can | impose a significant accessibility burden, even for people | who may not necessarily have hearing difficulties, for | example. | | Encouraging, or even forcing in many places, people to wear | masks was truly an accessibility tragedy. It's made even | worse by the fact that widespread everyday masking isn't even | effective. A lot of people were forced to endure a lot of | unnecessary and unjustifiable suffering. | MichaelCollins wrote: | I have a similar problem, but I don't think lack of lip | reading is the problem for me. I think a lot of people simply | mumble when they have a mask on. Something about the | sensation of the mask on their face has them start slurring | words and speaking softly. | VancouverMan wrote: | For a large segment of the population, the act of covering | the mouth (regardless of whether it's with a mask, a hand, | or something else) activates a deep-seated submission | reflex. | | Different individuals submit to varying degrees, and in | different ways. | | Some people become very quiet and withdrawn, which can lead | to the problems you describe when they try to communicate | verbally while masked. | | Others feel intense paranoia, and desperately seek out | authority figures to latch onto. | | Yet others realize that they're submitting, and it makes | them feel weak and powerless. These are the individuals who | often react aggressively when encountering somebody who | isn't submitting like they are. | | It's quite a fascinating subject. | layer8 wrote: | The mask itself muffles the sound. | MichaelCollins wrote: | Sure there's an element of that, but for some people it | seems much worse than others. Some people can still speak | clearly with a mask on, but many people can't. | VancouverMan wrote: | It can be particularly bad when there is a plastic | barrier of some sort in front of the masked speaker. | | Even today, this is still pretty common at cashiers and | checkouts in Canada, for example. | | Many of these barriers were put up rapidly without much | thought, and are completely improvised. They aren't like | the purpose-build security shields that still have holes, | vents, or microphones/speakers to allow at least some | verbal communication to take place. | | The thick, rigid plastic barriers are the worst | offenders, by far, although even flexible plastic sheets | can definitely disrupt communication, too. | swayvil wrote: | Ditto. Eyes are too intense. | faeriechangling wrote: | >Mean engagement was quantified as an average of the two | continuous self-reported engagement ratings that each | conversation partner made while rewatching a video of their | conversation | | The tail is wagging the dog in this study. The study | fundamentally fails to validly measure what it claims to measure. | It's measuring the perception of attention, not attention itself. | | I only look at their face to signal that I'm paying attention to | them, but if I'm looking at their face, I'm probably paying | attention to looking at their face not at what they're actually | saying. It's a very conscious move on my part to sacrifice my | actual ability to pay attention to give off the perception of | paying attention. If I want to both pay attention and look like | I'm paying attention, I write notes. | | >186 subjects comprising 93 dyads (mean age: 19.38 y; 120 | females) participated. Subjects were recruited from Dartmouth | College | | Also a rather WEIRD sample which is actually a major issue in a | study like this since it's measuring something rooted in cultural | perceptions. | gundmc wrote: | This is a huge problem for many psychology studies more | broadly. Undergrads are a ready and plentiful source of test | subjects for research professors, but they come with a huge bag | of self-selected characteristics that may not extrapolate to | the broader population at all. | BeetleB wrote: | For folks who are not aware of the WEIRD acronym: | | > In 2008, Arnett pointed out that most articles in American | Psychological Association journals were about U.S. populations | when U.S. citizens are only 5% of the world's population. He | complained that psychologists had no basis for assuming | psychological processes to be universal and generalizing | research findings to the rest of the global population.[279] In | 2010, Henrich, Heine, and Norenzayan reported a bias in | conducting psychology studies with participants from "WEIRD" | ("Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic") | societies.[280][281] Henrich et al. found that "96% of | psychological samples come from countries with only 12% of the | world's population" (p. 63). The article gave examples of | results that differ significantly between people from WEIRD and | tribal cultures, including the Muller-Lyer illusion. Arnett | (2008), Altmaier and Hall (2008) and Morgan-Consoli et al. | (2018) view the Western bias in research and theory as a | serious problem considering psychologists are increasingly | applying psychological principles developed in WEIRD regions in | their research, clinical work, and consultation with | populations around the world.[279][282][283] In 2018, Rad, | Martingano, and Ginges showed that nearly a decade after | Henrich et al.'s paper, over 80% of the samples used in studies | published in the journal Psychological Science employed WEIRD | samples. Moreover, their analysis showed that several studies | did not fully disclose the origin of their samples; the authors | offered a set of recommendations to editors and reviewers to | reduce WEIRD bias.[284] | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology#WEIRD_bias | photochemsyn wrote: | Even for people who think eye contact is important during a | conversation - please, you don't want to do this while driving a | vehicle. Keep your eyes on the road and have a normal | conversation without looking at the other person. It's a major | safety hazard, as bad as texting and driving. | jleyank wrote: | Get used to eye contact cuz if/when you lose hearing you'll be | lip reading and trying to pick up cues re when to speak and what | was said. Unless you have two hearing aids for stereo, where | people look in a group is an excellent cue who is talking. And | talking over people is an "I'm an asshole" cue that one should | try to avoid. | gertlex wrote: | (I wear hearing aids and always have; not correcting you; just | typing/sharing y own observations to see if I learn anything) | | I do plenty of staring at mouths (subconciously), and eye | contact has always been a different thing than eyes-watching- | lips, especially one-on-one. I'm not sure how it is for the | normal-hearing, but prolonged eye contact has never been | something I've done much of, my eyes usually regularly drop to | the lips (or for those who I can hear really well, I won't be | looking at their faces at all ;) ) | | When following in a group setting, I do watch eyes, but have | that strong response of looking away if the speaker happens to | make eye contact. And yeah, participating/interjecting in | conversations is a weakness. | | The whole masking thing though... has been new and rough. If I | have to converse 1-on-1 with the other wearing masks, there's | no lips to watch, but the eyes are still there! I haven't dug | into it too much (spooky? eyes are just distracting non- | lipreading motions?), but my brain does massively better at | figuring out what is said if I look to the side (typically at | the floor/wall). Whether or not I have any autism spectrum | traits or not, I'm sure a higher percent of people wonder about | such now, than they did a few years ago. | | Masks + group of friends: I pretty much auto give up and idle | on my phone; the culture of "don't question others about | wearing masks" is too strong to feel socially comfortable with | asking for masks to be removed. That's definitely excuse-making | on my part, but my friends also are pretty good about removing | masks when we're seated for dinner, etc. so I haven't been | forced to ask for mask removal anyways... | jleyank wrote: | I wear them also with severe loss. The eyes comment came from | meetings before I got them. Many people "grow" into needing | aids and go through a struggling period where many voices are | just gone. Masks suck for deaf folks, but I can get a little | from eye crinkles. And saying what a lot. And avoiding | crowded, noisy restaurants as I'm screwed with or without | aids. | gertlex wrote: | There's another thread below that mentions a bunch of the | same things you and I just did. Good knowledge and | confirmation! | | And agreed, masks have shown (what has been said plenty in | the past), there's still a ton of readable emotion just | around the eyes. Distracting, though! | | Relating to the growing into needing/wearing them: I've | worn mine since age 3 (and gone from analog to digital, | with some tradeoffs of each), they're a constant, but I | also have suspicions of my listening comprehension getting | worse-over-time. But it could also just as well be | increasing self-reflection/awareness + new experiences. | (Just this month, mid 30s, first time visiting Germany, | after 6ish years of German classes in middle/high school + | college; confronted some real hearing limitations trying to | listen to natives!) | gumby wrote: | I wonder how much this is affected by culture ("a lot" would be | interesting and "not at all" would be _very_ interesting). It | feels like it 's a low-level innate communication thing (e.g. | dogs do this too when communicating with humans, while inter-dog | eye contact has different semantics). | | I do notice that I look at the speaker in a zoom call, even when | I have my own video off. I also notice in big calls where many | people have their cameras off, it's common that a questioner or | commenter will enable the camera before speaking, and then | disable it again when their turn is over. | | (I searched for "culture" and "language" before posting) | oezi wrote: | Probably the key reason why online meetings where eye contact is | impossible never feel engaging. | | The cool tech demos from Nvidia and other which do gaze | correction unfortunately didn't make it to Zoom or Teams. | duncan-donuts wrote: | I know I'm in the minority here but I've never experienced | this. Eye contact for me is a deeply uncomfortable thing and | I've struggled with it my whole life. I do make eye contact | with people but I almost never sustain it for more than a | couple seconds. I find online meetings to be pretty engaging | most of the time. No less engaging than a meeting in an office | with the same amount of participation. | dazc wrote: | I have never been comfortable with direct eye contact but the | funny thing is that I am often complemented on my eyes, which | feels kind of weird but also makes me realize how other | people can judge you in ways you wouldn't normally consider. | euroderf wrote: | Yes. Eye contact can sometimes/often be unbearably intense. | Not sure what the cure is. | swader999 wrote: | Just more of it I think. It's like anything, practice it | until it becomes second nature and you can even feel | relaxed doing it. | swader999 wrote: | Do you think you connect with others effectively in | conversation? I struggle the same way and really have to | focus on it. | tartoran wrote: | Yep, im one of these too and find online meetings more | relaxing too. When I make (forced) eye contact I lose my | train of thought and often have to glance at the ceiling or | out in the distance when I'm in a deep conversation. But I | adapted and I am comfortable not making eye contact when I | deliver a speech. I may as well be on the spectrum somewhere | as I've always been this way. The coping mechanisms I've | built still don't help not disturb my train of thought when | making eye contact, I have no problem with the eye contact | itself but it's just too distracting sometimes. | dragontamer wrote: | In martial arts when I was younger, we spent at least a few | sessions just staring at each other, to get comfortable / | less awkward with looking at your opponent. | | That, along with taking punches to the stomach (We weren't | very strong yet, so no worries about us actually injuring | each other), just to get "used to getting hit", among other | things... these kinds of training helps remove the mental | blocks when you actually start to spar. | | I'd say that eye-contact is just one of those things you need | to train for. I know I did, it helped me a lot inside of a | sparring match to help me focus on the opponent rather than | feeling awkward (they're looking at me kinda thing). | | ----- | | If you haven't had martial arts practice, then you could just | practice eye-contact with your friends instead. | throw827474737 wrote: | > I'd say that eye-contact is just one of those things you | need to train for. | | But for why and what if I'm not into martial arts? Just for | social norms and studies that say only then I am really | engaged and pay attention, which is definitely not true for | me? | oblak wrote: | Not that you care but I straight up ask people with | sunglasses to take them off if they want to talk to me. I | take covering your eyes as hiding. | Godel_unicode wrote: | That sounds incredibly rude to me. | csa wrote: | > In martial arts when I was younger, we spent at least a | few sessions just staring at each other | | This seems... not right. | | I'm guessing your martial arts teacher was not | traditionally trained, but I could be wrong. | | In pretty much every sport that I have played in which I | engage in some way with my opponents, it's pretty much | always best to focus on the hips, since all | major/significant motion starts there. | tejohnso wrote: | I took karate and was instructed to look at the eyes. I'd | stare into the eyes while sparring. | | Didn't work well because I'd feel somewhat hypnotized by | the eye contact and could never react in time to block | strikes. | | The blocking method was ridiculous as well but that's a | separate point. Looking back I think a high percentage of | that karate training was counter productive or just | useless. | sdwr wrote: | Useless for fighting maybe, but for socializing? | yakubin wrote: | It is useful for fighting. Allows you to see what your | opponent is going to do early. If you look at their hands | instead e.g. you'll see their movement well after it's | already started, and you won't be able to react in time. | That of course assumes your opponent is well trained. | Amateurs' moves are so inefficient you might as well look | at the ground and you'll still probably be able to defend | yourself. | fidesomnes wrote: | guenthert wrote: | > it's pretty much always best to focus on the hips, | since all major/significant motion starts there. | | Not a martial artist, but I'm sure it starts with the | intention. Whether that intention can be intuited from | the glance I don't know, but wouldn't surprise me. | lljk_kennedy wrote: | You'll end up biting on feints - or worse, get hit - if | you look at their eyes. A good fighter might look at your | legs and begin moving as if to throw a leg kick, but | throw a hook to the head instead. If you read their | advertised intent and try to check the leg kick, you get | knocked out by the hook. | | In MMA fights / sparring, I've found touch is the biggest | thing to understand intent. A hand on the shoulder can | feel where the opponent is moving. Like a race car driver | who feels the slide through their butt and corrects the | slide before their eyes are telling them they're sliding. | Godel_unicode wrote: | At least in Basketball defense all about looking at hips, | eyes lie. | matwood wrote: | When training in jiu jitsu, once I make contact with my | opponent I tend to close my eyes most of the time. Once | you see something it's usually too late, so you need to | learn to feel your opponents body, their muscles tensing, | their breathing, etc... | neilv wrote: | Sensei Shakira taught to do this because hips don't lie. | | Though Eagles style leverages that opponent can't hide | their lying eyes. | glogla wrote: | Shakira is from Brazil. BJJ is from Brazil. Makes sense! | Godel_unicode wrote: | She's from Barranquilla, which is in Colombia. | eternalban wrote: | (aside: you have some very cool projects! ) | dragontamer wrote: | A lot of martial arts is an "after school club" activity. | It could very well be not martial arts related at all but | more general social training the instructors wanted from | us that time around. | | I dunno. Its where I learned to look people in the eyes, | honest. | csa wrote: | > Its where I learned to look people in the eyes, honest. | | Oh, I totally believe you. | | It's the teacher I question. | | Regardless, I'm glad you were able to take away at least | one positive from your instruction. | dagmx wrote: | I think statistically you're not in the minority. | | The two most populated countries in the world for example | don't encourage eye contact, and when you account for the | large number of countries in Asia that similarly don't, the | statistical norm is to avoid eye contact. | duncan-donuts wrote: | Yeah in hindsight I'm probably not. Probably my own bias of | 1) hearing from people that online communication just isn't | the same 2) my own struggle with eye contact 3) being | American. | lelandfe wrote: | > The cool tech demos from Nvidia and other which do gaze | correction unfortunately didn't make it to Zoom or Teams | | Apple's Facetime does this by default. It actually works quite | well - none of my friends or family have ever noticed it. | https://mashable.com/article/fake-eye-contact-on-facetime | BeetleB wrote: | Worth reading the other comments from people (and cultures!) | that prefer little to no eye contact. | | A prior discussion on the topic: | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33003356 | | As I mentioned there, personally, once I switched to WFH once | the pandemic started, this was a total non-issue for me. I even | switched teams and had all brand new coworkers. They never saw | me and I never saw them. Everyone's totally fine with it. | | I mean, for many of us, we've often had to have meetings/calls | with people in another geo anyway. People talk on the phone all | the time and I've yet to hear someone say they didn't feel | engaged talking to someone on the phone because they couldn't | make eye contact. People fall in love that way all the time. | kitanata wrote: | ... in Nuerotypical populations. | | This study mentions but provides no data or analysis for how | their study is impacted by or was affected by the differences | between nuerotypical and autistic samples. Which is a shame | because as an autistic person who doesn't like eye contact, I | think those findings would have been much more insightful and | potentially groundbreaking. My hope is the authors have plans to | look closer at that. | Pigalowda wrote: | kitanata wrote: | Welcome to the world of science where critique, positive | criticism and open questioning is encouraged! We're glad to | have you finally join us. | Pigalowda wrote: | Thank you for the re-welcome! I've been in "science" for 15 | years now, it's always good to be welcomed again. | | You should know that the cohort you would like studied was | actually referenced in the article as a further avenue of | study and an additional publication! So your critique of | the current study is actually just a complaint that it | isn't your cohort. They've outlined their materials and | methods, you could maybe do a study yourself? | | "These findings raise many questions for further research-- | both for typical and atypical neurological populations-- | about how attentional states are modulated during | interaction with downstream consequences on how minds | engage with each other" | iinnPP wrote: | As someone you are referring to, though not on the spectrum, I | can say confidently that eye contact has a negative impact on | my following of a conversation. This is more true when the | conversation requires more thought to contribute meaningfully. | | Perhaps interesting is that I do have a mild form of Tourette's | syndrome. Eye contact for me very quickly becomes "itchy" and | there is a lot of focus required to ignore that feeling for a | lengthy conversation. | Brian_K_White wrote: | you say typical, which means you already recognize the | exceptions are exceptions, which makes this into nothing more | than an observation that exceptions exist, but exceptions exist | in everything, and so it is an uninteresting no-op of an | observation. You could say "except for the exceptions" about | everything on every topic. | | "2 plus 2 equals 4" | | "... in base 10, with arabic numerals." | hinkley wrote: | That's not what the title says. The title reminds | neurodivergent people that, once again, go fuck yourself. | Brian_K_White wrote: | uh huh ok | | or... it's already the default baseline that everything | ever written about any chaotic system from humans to frogs | to cells to the weather, is already understood to only ever | be expressable in any other terms than percentages, | averages, generalizations. All facts or observations are | already only some percentage. _especially_ for humans, | _especially_ for behavior, _especially_ for behavior in | humans. It 's frankly ridiculous to mention, like any other | truism. | | You could add a ridiculous qualifier on practically every | other word in any statement on any subject, and that | doesn't make them go from false to true, it makes them go | from useful to useless. | MichaelCollins wrote: | It says nothing of the sort. If "neurodivergent" people are | going to imagine insults where there are none, that cannot | be helped. | reilly3000 wrote: | Wow. Do you feel the same way about feminism? Racism? Do | you doubt the existence or severity of ADHD, ASD, etc? | | In case there was any doubt on that last point, consider | that each of those lower lifespan by about 30 years, have | ~15X higher suicide rates, and are 1:2 are not able to | work full time. | | Insults are in the eye of the beholder. For a person with | a disorder marked by issues with eye contact and | understanding social nuances, imagining insults that | aren't there IS the disability's effect. | | If you comment on how much a black person enjoys | watermelon and you do so objectively without malice, it's | still fair for that to be considered a big insult. Why? | Because it has been used as a derogatory stereotype for | many years. | | If you want to understand the perspective of | neurodivergents, look up the terms "allistic" and | "ableism". | the_gipsy wrote: | HN's average audience is probably not neurotypical. | Spivak wrote: | This is so silly because roughy 15% of people or 1 in 6 | people is neurodivergent. | | Or stated another way if you would feel squeamish about | playing Russian Roulette then you're making the same bet if | you make judgments about someone you're not sure is | neurodivergent. | | If we play this game at the margins every human in the US is | female and there's some exceptions. | | Things there's fewer of than neurodivergent people. | | - people who are left handed | | - the number of black americans | | - people with blue eyes | | - redheads | | - people who live in California | eks391 wrote: | 2 + 2 = 4 in any base system 5 or higher, not just 10 Anyway | I agree with your argument and am not trying to nullify it | with this tangential correction | Brian_K_White wrote: | Are you telling me my statement was true except in some | cases? | ironSkillet wrote: | To add to the chain of tangential corrections, it is | incorrect to state that you are correcting a mistake. What | your parent said was in fact a true statement, you just | generalized it a bit. | boomskats wrote: | The Hacker News Parody Thread[0] has ruined your comment | for me. | | [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33680661 | electromech wrote: | At a local Burger King drive-through, there's an attendant who | looks off to the side while handing me stuff through the | window. It was a learning moment for me: "so _that 's_ what | other people see when I'm talking to them!" | raldi wrote: | Indeed. For some people, the way to know they're _really_ | paying attention is when they close their eyes altogether. | Simon_O_Rourke wrote: | Just about to say that. I've worked with a few very talented | engineers who simply wouldn't look anyone in the eye during | conversation, but focused their full attention on the subject | under discussion. | Spivak wrote: | Yep, if I'm ever making eye contact anyone I am devoting like | 80% of my brain power to just that. | furyofantares wrote: | I'm sure that if you make any eye contact during conversation | it marks the rise and fall of shared attention even if the | correlation is lesser or maybe a lot lesser for you. Unless | you're saying you do make eye contact but it's when your | attention has lapsed, which I doubt is what you're saying but | correct me if wrong! | | That said I've personally almost never made eye contact in 42 | years of life, but I do look at mouths which nobody has ever | noticed isn't eye contact, and I'm sure serves the same | purpose. If all you ever do is look away, it would be | interesting to hear if you think there are other things that | might serve the same "signal shared attention" functionality | for you. | | I'll also note that autism isn't the only way to be atypical, | and sure wouldn't be surprised if eye contact signals shared | attention just as much in ADHD folks as in neurotypical folks | (but would be very interested in finding out if that's true or | not). | Thlom wrote: | Many with ADHD struggles with eye contact. It's too intense | for more than a few seconds at the time. | ravenstine wrote: | Could you clarify what you might expect from a similar analysis | performed on neuralatypicals? For example, would eye contact | play little to no role in shared attention between two autistic | people? I ask in part because I don't think I know that much | about the autistic experience. | kitanata wrote: | I would suspect significantly reduced eye contact between | autistic and Nuerotypicals and between autistic and autistic | social pairings. My central question would be in high masking | autistic individuals does there masking ability relate | somehow to eye contact? And if so... by how much? Similarly | in autistic-autistic pairings how much eye contact is | required for autistic people to communicate well with each | other? In my experience, and in some recent studies we see | that autistic people can communicate seamlessly with other | autistic people without the need for eye contact. | | This study asserts that eye contact is required for good | social engagement and communication. What I am challenging is | that that finding is probably only true in Nuerotypical | samples and is probably not present in autistic people. | _fat_santa wrote: | > And if so... by how much? Similarly in autistic-autistic | pairings how much eye contact is required for autistic | people to communicate well with each other? | | As a neurotypical person, this is actually pretty | interesting to me as well. I live in the US and here we are | always taught to make eye contact when speaking to someone, | as it shows as sign that you are "engaged" with that | person. It's something so ingrained in you from a young age | here that you start to think that this is how all humans | should communicate. | | Neurodivergent people just tend to ignore those social | constructs, makes me wonder if we as neurotypical people | play all these social games and a neurodivergent person | just looks at all that as window dressing that isn't | required. | eyelidlessness wrote: | > Neurodivergent people just tend to ignore those social | constructs, makes me wonder if we as neurotypical people | play all these social games and a neurodivergent person | just looks at all that as window dressing that isn't | required. | | I can only speak for my own view, which is that I find | making eye contact uncomfortable, and I find that when I | _do_ make eye contact it seems like I must be "doing it | wrong" because it seems to make others uncomfortable too. | Granted I may be reading others' reactions wrong, the | possibility of which contributes to my own discomfort! | MichaelCollins wrote: | > _a neurodivergent person just looks at all that as | window dressing that isn 't required._ | | This seems like a hypothesis that we could test. For | instance, by rationally explaining the practical utility | of eye contact, to detect earnestness or deception. Then | ask them to attempt this, and see if they can bring | themselves to even try. My guess is most neurodivergents | who avoid eye contact will find that eye contact remains | too uncomfortable to even attempt it. This would show | that their eye contact avoidance is not merely a matter | of them not seeing any utility in a pointless social | game. | lstodd wrote: | So this. | BeetleB wrote: | > ... in Nuerotypical populations. | | As pointed out in another thread, the population of cultures in | the world where not making eye contact is the social norm | likely exceeds that where it is, so no - not neurotypical | population. | zoklet-enjoyer wrote: | I can focus better on what someone is saying if I'm not looking | at them. Sometimes it's detrimental because others think I'm not | paying attention. If I do look at a person's face while speaking | with them, it is most beneficial to me to look at their mouth and | read their lips while I listen. But then I'm like aware that I'm | staring at this person's mouth so then I'll fake eye contact by | looking them in the eyes but blurring my vision slightly. I'm not | sure if that looks weird, but I think people don't notice. Nobody | has ever said anything about my eyes looking odd. Or maybe they | just think that's how they are. | Gareth321 wrote: | Same here. I feel like I'm hyper-focusing on their facial | features and expressions instead of their words. When I'm | looking away I can devote my full attention to their words (and | tone). | | I've overcome this to a degree with a lot of practise, but it's | not my comfort zone. | out-of-ideas wrote: | For me it falls as a "dont care" if we use a Karnaugh map/truth | table; i'd more likely believe that "looking somebody in the | eyes" for conversation has evolved from some trust issues | similar to hand-shaking to show a form of trust. | | I've had many-a-day playing some relaxing/intense video games, | all the while having very in-depth conversations with both | people online (no eye contact there) as well as with people in | the same room who were also playing video games. | | People that think you are not paying attention just need to | both learn and understand that not everybody is the same in how | brain functions work; we are also taught to take notes in | lectures as well, and as far as I recall, there was no staring | the lecturer in the eyes while I was writing shit down... (and | then mulling over data and questioning as needed) | noodles_nomore wrote: | I agree a lot. You make eye contact to catch nuances in | meaning of a socially laden topic, or when you want to gauge | the other persons reaction to what you're saying etc. | Different topics just require different levels of eye | contact. | | There are some people though, who are clearly very socially | apt who almost stare at you while they keep talking, which | actually seems weird to me. Firstly, what are they looking | at? It seems kind of shameless to say it crassly. Secondly, | they don't gesticulate with their eyes, which makes them | harder to read. | | The entire idea that someone has a problem with "holding eye | contact" is misguided in my opinion. It doesn't explain what | you could do to fix it, and focusing on where you are looking | is most certainly going to make it worse because your visual | attention is a low-level function that is supposed to work | unconsciously. What one might have a problem with is not | caring about the person you're talking to, or whether you | catch the intricate social implications, or that they | understand exactly where you're coming from. And if that's | the problem, it's at least possible to work out some kind of | solution for oneself. | a1445c8b wrote: | I also tend to stare at the mouth of the person I'm talking to! | | Which, I think, makes it look like I'm looking at their chest | because the women I talk to almost invariably adjust their | shirt in a way that suggests they've become uncomfortable | (because they think I'm looking at their chest) | alcover wrote: | No, they would know by the angle of your eyes if you were | staring that low. | | Looking intensely at someone's lips is at times the prelude | to a kiss. I think this ambiguity makes them uncomfortable. | gumby wrote: | I also find I often look at the mouth of the person I'm | speaking with but don't encounter the responses you have. Not | sure why. | dontlaugh wrote: | The unfocused vision is quite obvious to some, I've had people | complain that I look through them. | penguin_booze wrote: | Same here. I assume a thinking pose and look at a corner in the | room - that should signal that at least my attention hasn't | strayed elsewhere more significant. | | My another strategy is to make occasional eye contact while | blurring my vision. To them, I'm making eye contact, whereas | for me, it's not that different when I'm looking at the corner. | erik_landerholm wrote: | Yeah I'm really good at those hidden 3d pictures. I can split | the focus of my eyes super quickly and will do that sometimes | while looking at someone if I feel like I've not looked at | their eyes for too long. On zoom if I'm really listening I'm | literally turning my head to the side and possibly closing my | eyes. | bayofpigs wrote: | musha68k wrote: | Same for me. I think social cues / non-verbal processing | hijacks the actual verbal information channel. | | One of the reasons why remote works so well for me. | | I realized that through the pandemic actually: I didn't even | see it before, I always thought to be a very social nerd, | thriving in in-person work interactions. | | Though ultimately I realized that open plan offices and context | discussions in person - all of these seem to be major drains of | both energy and focus for me at least. | bombela wrote: | Same. Blury vision trick and all. We are not alone. | FPGAhacker wrote: | I just tell people that I get distracted by facial expressions | and I look down or away to really focus on what they are | saying. | xboxnolifes wrote: | Same. If I want to give what someone is saying my _full | attention_ , that means I don't even want my eyes to take some | of my focus. | | I'll usually close my eyes and nod along to what they're | saying. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-11-20 23:00 UTC)