[HN Gopher] IRCv3 2022 Spec round-up ___________________________________________________________________ IRCv3 2022 Spec round-up Author : buovjaga Score : 138 points Date : 2022-11-20 17:09 UTC (5 hours ago) (HTM) web link (ircv3.net) (TXT) w3m dump (ircv3.net) | TheBrokenRail wrote: | The issue I have with Matrix/IRC/IRCv3 compared to Discord is | that they don't really work well with public communities. | | Discord's server/channel/role system is amazing, and I don't know | why everyone else isn't replicating it. | | For instance, let's take the Pine64 Discord server. It has a | grand total of 27 channels split into 10 categories (including | top-level). Using Discord's permissions system, some of those | channels are read-only like #announcements. | | Pine64's server is also bridged to Matrix. Matrix requires every | single channel to be bridged individually into their own Matrix | chat, just look at this table | (https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Main_Page#Chat_Platforms)! In fact, | some of the channels aren't even bridged at all! Meanwhile on | Discord, everything's all in one easy to use place. You just join | the server, and that's it. | | But what about Matrix spaces? Aren't those the equivalent of | Discord servers? The issue is that rather than an integrated | experience, Matrix servers are just a built-in version of the | table I listed above. You still have to leave/join chats | individually and it doesn't even have categories! | | But that's all from a user's perspective, what about from a | server admin's perspective? Discord's permission system is great | and flexible, and Matrix's system is just kind of bad. In case | you don't know Matrix's system from what i understand is | basically: every user gets a permission level number, and users | with certain levels can do certain things. That's it, no | flexibility whatsoever. | | Meanwhile on Discord, you can create roles which when given to | users allow them to do certain things. Like anyone with a | "Moderator" role can delete messages or ban people. But you could | also make it so "moderators" can't delete messages, only ban | people. And you can also make roles behave different on per- | channel or per-category basis. You can even make it so users | can't see a channel at all without a role (for instance, a server | I'm an admin on has a #mod-chat channel and a #admin-chat | channel). | | Matrix's system just can't do that. And it really doesn't | integrate with their Spaces system. There's no way to make it so | only certain people can see certain channels in a Matrix Space. | In fact, there's no way to manage permissions for an entire | Matrix Space at all! It's limited to a per-chat basis. | | And that long-winded rant is why I will stick with Discord. | qudat wrote: | Ya but there's little client diversity. I can't have discord | running on a headless dev box and remote in to catch up. This | is what irc better for terminal enthusiasts | p1necone wrote: | The only reason you need to do that in the first place is | that IRC servers don't save chat history/dms when you're | offline. You'd gain no benefit from doing that with Discord. | qudat wrote: | I use all sorts of computers for personal and professional | use. I don't want to install discord on all those clients. | | The point is more about the possibilities which have been | severely muted with chat apps like discord. | bawolff wrote: | For irc that just seems like a UI difference. Of course you can | have announce only channels in irc, people have been doing that | forever. | | The big thing is that discord shows you all related channels on | the project. If you are on libera, there isn't the same | discoverability. So in a sense announcement only channels are | much less useful because users cant find them (not to mention | lack of history if you dont have a bouncer). | progval wrote: | When hosting your own IRC server, you can "force-join" users | to arbitrary channels to replicate what it's like to join a | discord guild. Pine64 does it, for example. | ilyt wrote: | It goes much farther than that I think the most interesting | use of its API i've seen was using the dumb little reaction | "press icon to add to the counter thing" as a way to opt in | or confirm stuff. | | I remember one server where the #welcome channel just have a | bunch of "categories" to choose from and depending on which | one you clicked you got assigned a role that unlocked a bunch | of channels related to the topic. Some also used it to the | new user onboarding where you got access once you read the | rules and accepted it by clicking the reaction. | | > So in a sense announcement only channels are much less | useful because users cant find them (not to mention lack of | history if you dont have a bouncer). | | That's my issue with projects or corporations using discord | for generic chat - it is entirely undiscoverable to outside | world, can't just google a question. | adenozine wrote: | Insomuch as this may be an adequate design, for many cases the | fact that it's not open source is a nonstarter. I'd certainly | never touch it for my teams and workgroups at work, because we | need to be able to host it and isolate and harden. | | Discord is also sorta prone to this weird and cringy sort of | internet culture which regular people find a little gross, I'd | think. | | I'm old enough to distinctly remember the rise of IRC and I | can't see a reason aside from better security for it to be | reinvented rather than just updating the standard. Emojis and | attachments and whatnot. | dopa42365 wrote: | See, you can decide to stick with discord, and discord can | decide to not stick with you. | | That's the difference. | | "Your" discord "server" turns out to be neither of those. | stonogo wrote: | Discord and IRC are not competitors. Discord is just a product | you choose to use or not. Discord Inc. runs the servers, and | you use whatever software they approve to connect. Using | unapproved software could result in a ban from the service. | | IRC is a set of protocols to enable a federated service. You | choose which server implementation you want to host, and your | users choose from dozens of available clients, which all work | together because of the relevant standards, to which everyone | has access. | | The rest of your comment seems to be a comparison of Matrix, | which is not IRC, and Discord. It's great that you've found a | product you like, which suits your needs. Don't make the | mistake of thinking IRC is competing with it, though. IRC will | still be here long after Discord Inc. exits. | ilyt wrote: | Those 3 product fill same function, chatting between people. | Of course they are competitors, it's just IRC isn't | competitive in normal people space. | | The fact IRC might or might not choose to compete doesn't | mean it isn't one of choices people wanting chatting app | consider. | andrewshadura wrote: | In fact, the Matrix permission system allows for what you | describe. For each room, you can define what actions a certain | access level can perform. | Daunk wrote: | Is there a modern client and server that supports all of these | recent additions? | slingamn wrote: | Here are my biased recommendations ;-) | | a. Ergo [1] as the server for a greenfield setup | | b. Gamja [2] and Goguma [3] ) as clients | | c. Soju [4] as a bouncer for non-Ergo networks | | [1] https://github.com/ergochat/ergo [2] | https://sr.ht/~emersion/gamja/ [3] | https://sr.ht/~emersion/goguma/ [4] | https://sr.ht/~emersion/soju/ | qudat wrote: | Also throwing a great terminal client in the mix: | https://git.sr.ht/~taiite/senpai | donio wrote: | In Emacs-land rcirc supports a bunch of them: | | https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/lisp/net/rc... | lzooz wrote: | How's rcirc compared to erc? | donio wrote: | I think it comes down to personal preferences. rcirc is a | single file. ERC is more modular, it has the core | functionality in one file and a bunch of modules can be | pulled in for extra functionality. | | I originally went with rcirc because I preferred the way it | handles logging: it maintains a separate log buffer and you | can format the local logs separate from the display format. | ERC logging works by writing out the recent portions the | buffer itself. Both are very customizable though, lots of | variables and hooks so it should be possible to tweak | either one to your taste. | lzooz wrote: | Great, cheers | pandastronaut wrote: | You will find a supported features matrix here for clients : | https://ircv3.net/software/clients and here for servers : | https://ircv3.net/software/servers | ilyt wrote: | I firmly believe support feature matrix is what ultimately | killed XMPP for masses - it always felt like you don't know | what you get with given client or server and never quite | worked fine. | | That and advent of zero-fuss web clients | mananaysiempre wrote: | They do have pages listing client[1] and server[2] support. | (Behind the "Support" button in the navigation bar, which is | perfectly logical, but I needed a couple of seconds to overcome | my conditioning and convince myself this may really be the kind | of "support" they are talking about.) | | [1] https://ircv3.net/software/clients | | [2] https://ircv3.net/software/servers | doublerabbit wrote: | Unfortunately, it's still stuck in the dinosaur era. | Dah00n wrote: | That wasn't necessary. | doublerabbit wrote: | Where's the streaming media? | jenscow wrote: | Not on IRC. Some would call that a feature. | gsich wrote: | Links work. | doublerabbit wrote: | not without ssl | cassianoleal wrote: | What does this even mean? If a link has TLS, it will have | TLS. If it doesn't, it won't. Like anything on the web. | doublerabbit wrote: | If I have a website that does not require SSL, I don't | need an SSL cert. I don't need a screaming firefox window | blaring "ThIs SiTe MaY Be InSecUrE" because IRC back in | the days you shared links without https. Why does a .jpg | need SSL? | | IRC is a dead feature. Until someone creates a drag- | dropable image uploader to the client, IRC is dead. You | can add as many features as you wish to the server, but | without a client, there is no connection to hyperspace. | [deleted] | gsich wrote: | There is no such screaming window. Please test. | kelnos wrote: | > _IRC is a dead feature._ | | I think all the people who use IRC daily would disagree | with you on that. | | I do agree that IRC is stuck in the dark ages when it | comes to feature support, and even just features in the | spec. I dislike Slack, but whenever I use Slack for a | while, and then switch to IRC for something else, I miss | seemingly-simple things like being able to easily share | images, react to messages with emoji, start subthreads in | messages (a feature of Slack's I initially hated, but | eventually came to appreciate). | | I get that it's difficult to add these sorts of things to | IRC in a reasonable way, especially when we're talking | about degrading gracefully for clients that don't support | newer features. But IRC is pretty much the definition of | an open, federated protocol failing to avoid | ossification. | doublerabbit wrote: | > I think all the people who use IRC daily would disagree | with you on that. | | What people? I've used IRC for the past 15 years. It is | dead. I was the generation to make it alive. You have | stale, and chaos. It's old, musky and old. | | I have no issue with IRC its a robust, reliable protocol. | But it's just stale. Its old. "We will invent this" where | is it? | | Who recently has made an attempt at a half-good browser? | progval wrote: | > easily share images, react to messages with emoji, | start subthreads in messages | | You can do all this on IRCCloud (which is currently the | only IRC client to support them, sadly). However, like | you mentioned, other clients won't see reactions or | threading. | cassianoleal wrote: | > I don't need a screaming firefox window blaring "ThIs | SiTe MaY Be InSecUrE" | | So your problem is with your own choice of browser? This | is not related to IRC or web links. | | > Until someone creates a drag-dropable image uploader to | the client | | Create one yourself, then? IDK, I don't feel the need for | it. I use IRC with a web client and it satisfies my | needs. | | > IRC is dead. | | It's definitely not dead. I use it daily, as do lots of | other people. Just because it doesn't have certain | features that you want, it doesn't mean it's dead. It | just means it's not for you. | | > there is no connection to hyperspace. | | I think you're mistaking Star Wars for the Internet. | doublerabbit wrote: | > I think you're mistaking Star Wars for the Internet. | | Never seen the movie. Take a joke. | | > IRC is dead. | | What Network #Channel have you been in that has active | conversation? Please let me know the last 95% of channels | are unattractive. | | > Just because it doesn't have certain features that you | want, it doesn't mean it's dead. It just means it's not | for you. | | You just don't get it. | | > So your problem is with your own choice of browser? | This is not related to IRC or web links. | | No. My problem is how corporate entities are shoving web | standards in to our faces and your too blind to care. | cassianoleal wrote: | > What Network #Channel have you been in that has active | conversation? | | Just a few examples. On Libera.chat: | | #proxmox, #btrfs, #docker, #go-nuts, #homeassistant, | #linux, #networking, #openwrt, others | | On OFTC: | | #asahi and its ancillary -dev and -gpu, #openwrt, | #turris, ... | | I also have friends who I talk to in servers and channels | outside of these. | | > You just don't get it. | | I don't get what? Your arguments are all over the place, | it's kinda funny really... | | > My problem is how corporate entities are shoving web | standards in to our faces and your too blind to care. | | You were complaining about Firefox's dislike of websites | without TLS. This has nothing to do with IRC, which is | what this whole discussion is about. | kuroguro wrote: | HN is also text only and it's the way I like it. | theandrewbailey wrote: | I played around with Ergo and Kiwi IRC some months ago. | | https://github.com/ergochat/ergo | | https://github.com/kiwiirc/kiwiirc | Avamander wrote: | I don't think any client supports them all, but mIRC and | Quassel make the best use of them so far in my opinion. | [deleted] | jacooper wrote: | Too late. Matrix ate IRC's lunch, its the future of federated | chats. | bgitarts wrote: | Unfortunately IRC has failed to keep up with the U/X of | centralized chat services like discord which is a shame because | an open protocol chat seems needed for the internet. | | Why does open protocol usually mean crippled U/X? | chungy wrote: | I would say the opposite rather, the UX of IRC clients (eg, | HexChat) is so polished and refined, it puts all the | proprietary chat services (and their clients) to shame. | eurasiantiger wrote: | Which alternatives have you tried? | ilyt wrote: | > Why does open protocol usually mean crippled U/X? | | Open is entirely unrelated to that, but optional features means | crippled UI/UX in the long run. Some server won't support it so | users can't use it, or some client won't support it so they | will see garbage/nothing when others use that feature. | | XMMP showed that well enough and it seems IRCv3 follows suit. | [deleted] | 323 wrote: | Because extremely few programmers which are attracted by | creating protocols have U/X design skills. | | In fact, they will probably say something like "just use the | CLI, it's a superior way anyway". | unknownaccount wrote: | There should be a way to decouple the UX from the program and | if people want a Discord "skin" for IRC that looks nearly 1:1 | they should be able to have that. | kelnos wrote: | I don't think that would help. The IRC protocol is missing so | many messaging features that platforms like Discord have. | Just looking like Discord wouldn't fix that. | arka2147483647 wrote: | Who pays for the UI to be developed? | | If open source/community, then chronically starved for | resources and contributors have divided directions. | | If commercial, then they want to differentiate and do embrace, | extend, extinguish, in order to drive everybody to their | client. | | I have come to believe, that the protocol spec and servers, is | just the easy part of chat apps. | BonitaPersona wrote: | In an ideal (and therefore unrealistic) world, it would be | done by the UX designer/dev equivalent counterparts of the | ones developing these open source softwares. | | Why do low level engineers work freely on FOSS but designers | or UX devs don't is the question. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-11-20 23:00 UTC)