[HN Gopher] Is our definition of burnout all wrong?
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Is our definition of burnout all wrong?
        
       Author : pmoriarty
       Score  : 47 points
       Date   : 2022-11-19 22:30 UTC (2 days ago)
        
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       | kayodelycaon wrote:
       | I think what the author is seeing is the human reaction to
       | prolonged stress. Trauma can create this, but so can many other
       | things.
       | 
       | Source: Bipolar... my body is overreactive to stress.
        
       | legitster wrote:
       | I still think this is largely wrong.
       | 
       | I've worked some tough jobs in my life. Physically laborious. I'm
       | talking 100+ hour weeks on an ice cold production line working
       | under complete psychopaths. I felt overworked, abused, frustrated
       | - I turned off my brain, chatted with coworkers, and did the job.
       | But never once did I feel "burned out". No matter how much I
       | hated the jobs, I could always stand there and do another day.
       | And the end of every shift felt _so good_.
       | 
       | In contrast, I have felt very burned out in relatively nice jobs
       | - thoroughly pleasant environments with minor workloads. I don't
       | even know why. Something about staring at screens all day -
       | something about that "unplugging" feeling you get after locking
       | in on some code all day - maybe constantly thinking about how
       | other people think.
       | 
       | Honestly, the closest non-work simile I have found was signing up
       | to do a video game marathon. After hour 8 I had a _distinct_
       | feeling of burnout for that game - as bad as any terrible job I
       | have ever had. For doing something I should otherwise find
       | enjoyable.
       | 
       | So I think there can be some amount of trauma involved, but I
       | think the core of "burnout" has less to do with actual negative
       | experiences and more about the type of work we engage with. And I
       | specifically think it has to do with our capacity to either do
       | continuous creative problem solving, or engage with large
       | varieties of different people - both activities that humans have
       | not historically had to engage in for extended periods of time in
       | previous eras.
        
         | shortcake27 wrote:
        
         | lkrubner wrote:
         | I strongly agree with this:
         | 
         | "In contrast, I have felt very burned out in relatively nice
         | jobs - thoroughly pleasant environments with minor workloads."
         | 
         | For me, I feel the most intense burnout when I see stupidly
         | wasted opportunities. For instance, if a startup has a great
         | idea and plenty of funding, but the leadership is hopelessly
         | stupid and engages in self-sabotage (and perhaps I try to save
         | the situation but I'm ignored) and millions of dollars are
         | wasted, then I get burnout. I felt burnout in 2016, after
         | witnessing the insanely self-destructive leadership at
         | "Celelot" destroy a brilliant idea, which I wrote about here:
         | 
         | https://www.amazon.com/dp/0998997617?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_...
        
         | _trampeltier wrote:
         | For me also, there had been times I worked several weeks from
         | 7am to 23pm and on weekends. This was no problem. The task was
         | clear, it was possible to do (with much overtime) and it had an
         | clear end. Later in my career, on a different job, different
         | position I almost got a burnout, because I thought I could
         | solve some problems with much work. But the problems there had
         | been endless. So there was no chance ever for me to solve all
         | the problems. I asked my boss for a different position in our
         | company. I just realized later how close I was to a very bad
         | burnout. I guess I had also a bit luck and good people around
         | me.
         | 
         | [Edit] The job, where I almost got a burnout. The job was empty
         | and they asked me for it, because the person before left with a
         | bad burnout. The person now in this job is now also close to a
         | burnout.
        
         | quickthrower2 wrote:
         | I suspect decision fatigue is a real thing. Especially the
         | harder should/should not decisions, rather than the clear quick
         | chat to the group then no-brainers.
        
           | FooHentai wrote:
           | Perhaps more like... 'engagement fatigue'? When it's truly
           | rote or mindless work your brain can disengage and be
           | somewhere else. With knowledge work you don't have that
           | luxury, even when the work itself isn't what we could
           | consider 'engaging', you nevertheless are obliged to be
           | engaged mentally to carry it out. Do that long enough without
           | deriving any satisfaction, it seems a perfectly sane reaction
           | to want to escape the situation, or just plain shut off. It
           | makes sense for our brains to realize we're spending a lot of
           | brain focus and time on something that isn't activating any
           | reward centers, and insist we stop doing that. That really
           | seems like a fundamentally sensible and healthy response from
           | a brain functioning properly.
        
         | PragmaticPulp wrote:
         | I've noticed a similar discrepancy in my life: Mental burnout
         | wasn't present in my early, physical-labor jobs. It also wasn't
         | present in my early coding jobs. It only started to appear
         | later in my career when my pay was highest and my actual time
         | spent producing tangible output (whether physical labor or
         | code) was lowest.
         | 
         | One theory is that I became less physically active over time.
         | Exercise is well known to have a protective effect against
         | burnout, and physical labor jobs are a lot of exercise all day.
         | I was also going to the gym much more when I was younger.
         | 
         | Another theory is that my later career burnout came from what
         | studies would call "social defeat stress". I was most burnt out
         | when I spent most of my job time trying to navigate
         | dysfunctional companies, deal with incompetent bosses, and
         | fight against dirty office politics.
         | 
         | Changing to a job where my boss was more demanding but also
         | more competent unexpectedly reduced my burnout symptoms rather
         | than worsening them. Something about being in a socially
         | consistent environment makes everything easier to stomach. On
         | the contrary, being in weird office politics situations where
         | Bob in management gets to insult your work and upend your
         | priorities every week just because he's got a certain title
         | leads to burnout. It's like the burnout is a response to dampen
         | your expectations and efforts in response to situations where
         | more engagement will only produce more stress and frustration.
         | 
         | Physical labor jobs, on the other hand, have a property that
         | more input will usually result in at least some tangible
         | forward progress.
        
         | eastbound wrote:
         | > I'm talking 100+ hour weeks on an ice cold production line
         | working under complete psychopaths.
         | 
         | <s>Testosterone</s>
         | 
         | I've worked cutting trees under a literal psychopath (just out
         | of jail for murder), a guy had died of dehydration on that job
         | the previous year. It was strenuous and I mourned/cried the
         | loss of my girlfriend while sawing branches like a madman.
         | 
         | It was also the best time of my life.
         | 
         | See, using my body, requiring agility, quick varied
         | microdecisions and physical strength, it _makes use_ of the
         | body I was given by mother nature. Compare that to working in
         | front of a computer all day, using only the logical part of my
         | brain, no emotions, gray screens everywhere: As much as I love
         | being an entrepreneur and I love using my IQ 136, well, it uses
         | 8% of the body's capabilities - the brain and the fingers,
         | period. It's unnatural.
         | 
         | So I suspect hard physical work with actual people and
         | emotions, triggers hormones (testosterone being the caricature
         | of it) that regulates everything including motivation, a clean
         | mind, and happiness. Of course I wouldn't wish to work on a
         | field all my life, but programming or Excel spreadsheeting may
         | have a negative impact on the mind.
        
           | bitexploder wrote:
           | I do BJJ and once you get into it, it is extremely fun and
           | rewarding. Strenuous physically. Mentally, extremely deep,
           | popular with tech folks because although you have to be in
           | shape skill development dominates. Strength will always be an
           | asset. So will cardio, but skill dominates. Plus close human
           | contact releases oxytocin and other hormones. And the
           | physical activity does the equivalent of a runners high. And
           | the mental activity gives you intrinsic learning rewards. I
           | suppose you can burn out on it, it can be very frustrating at
           | times, but once you get past the first humps it is golden.
        
             | eastbound wrote:
             | I loved judo for this reason, although BJJ might be less
             | dangerous. Exhausting; You take hits (unvoluntarily...
             | maybe); You learn gestures. And more importantly: You learn
             | with your body. I think our bodies demand to be used ;)
             | 
             | Socrates was right! There's no mind without a strong body!
             | (for a man at least).
        
               | bitexploder wrote:
               | Test is definitely a factor in working out and feeling
               | good for all men, but especially young men. Plenty of
               | women enjoy BJJ for many of the same reasons men do
               | though. BJJ is relatively safe. You will end up with
               | injuries, but it is worth it for me as a desk jockey. :)
        
           | throwaway675309 wrote:
           | Now try doing that job for 20 to 30 years, your entire body
           | will be totally broken and riddled with arthritis.
           | 
           | For somebody proudly touting their Mensa membership, you seem
           | to have fallen into the same transcendalist trap that
           | everyone does who waxes poetic for natural and "Mother
           | Earth".
           | 
           | Natural is one in three women dying in childbirth, natural is
           | contracting rabies by being bitten by a rabid animal and
           | having 100% mortality rate, natural is dying at age 50 to 60.
        
             | cpsns wrote:
             | > Now try doing that job for 20 to 30 years, your entire
             | body will be totally broken and riddled with arthritis.
             | 
             | I see this a lot on HN, but never forget that sitting for
             | eight hours a day has long term negative health
             | consequences too, some that are very very serious.
        
         | golemotron wrote:
         | It might have a lot to do with expectations too: illusory ones.
         | If one gains meaning from their work with the idea that they
         | are "changing the world" in some Utopian sense they might be
         | more prone to burnout.
         | 
         | It's nice when a job is just a way to make money and support
         | yourself.
        
       | choxi wrote:
       | I've always thought burnout is the same thing as learned
       | helplessness, which is a pretty well studied phenomenon in
       | psychology. It doesn't seem mysterious to me that if you
       | repeatedly do a task that is unrewarding for long enough, you no
       | longer want to do it. Then the COVID burnout can be explained by
       | a large scale reduction in the rewards that typically keep people
       | going.
        
         | vouaobrasil wrote:
         | I can see the reasoning here but I think it's a little
         | different. Learned helplessness is the phenomenon where people
         | stop trying to change their situation or circumstance because
         | they feel ("learn") that nothing will help. Burnout is a little
         | different. Burnout is more like when you simply don't want to
         | do something any more, but often people with burnout still have
         | the capacity to change their circumstance. Often people with
         | burnout will quit or take time off and seriously reconsider
         | their situation, whereas that is not the case with learned
         | helplessness.
         | 
         | In my opinion burnout is actually more of a natural phenomenon,
         | which is the mind simply needing to do something totally
         | different and perhaps more meaningful. I believe it is also due
         | to the unnatural tendency for people to work in the same or
         | similar field of expertise for far too long, which is simply
         | not natural especially for highly intellectual fields.
        
         | LaurensBER wrote:
         | I spend most of my 15 year career working at startups I've
         | worked long evenings, weekends, dealt with stress, tense
         | situations (both commercial and social) and deadlines and never
         | had any symptoms of burnout. I switched to a large enterprise
         | company and enjoyed the relaxed pace for a year. The first 6
         | months took some adjustment but I quickly figured out that
         | getting things done in a large company just required a bit of a
         | different skill set. Sometimes it took weeks to get a simple
         | configuration changed but when I finally talked to the guy I
         | learned that he had 5 kids, three of them who were sick,
         | instantly made me realize that my frustration about the pace
         | was uncalled for.
         | 
         | Fast forward to the second year, I got a new manager who turned
         | the office politics to 11, put people in positions that they
         | were absolutely not fit for and in general made a huge mess out
         | of everything, ignoring the advice and suggestions of the team
         | while doing it while continuously reminding us engineers of our
         | low place in the picking order. If there was a way to rank
         | managers this guy would be in the bottom 5%, I've worked with
         | about 30 managers (in one way or another) in my career so this
         | was bound to happen at some point.
         | 
         | However, I was totally not prepared for the effect it had on
         | me. Within months I was reduced to someone who was frustrated
         | 24/7, unable to do even the most basic task, I was sleeping
         | poorly and my physical health was suffering. It took an
         | enormous amount of energy just to sit through online meetings
         | without lashing out, the rest of the team was feeling the same
         | so you can imagine what kind of environment it was. I was lucky
         | to get a new job very quickly and after getting out of that
         | toxic environment I was my old self again in mere weeks.
         | 
         | I can totally imagine how burnout can be modeled as learned
         | helplessness. If, I, as young, healthy guy can be reduced to a
         | wreck, in months, in a toxic environment, I can only start to
         | imagine what people have to go through that don't have the
         | luxury of switching jobs quickly (for whatever reason).
        
           | clnq wrote:
           | I have been through the same. No burnout in startups, then a
           | period of boreout in a large company, then a political
           | manager, then depression, and then resigning. Although my
           | company did retain me in the end.
           | 
           | There's nothing worse than a clueless political manager.
        
           | onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
           | > Within months I was reduced to someone who was frustrated
           | 24/7, unable to do even the most basic task, I was sleeping
           | poorly and my physical health was suffering.
           | 
           | Always remember that it's jsut a job, and that your manager's
           | opinion - outside of that org - is no more important than
           | anyone else's opinion in the world.
        
             | planetsprite wrote:
             | It's hard to get out of that mindset, especially as a young
             | new hire.
             | 
             | In the United States, your job is very closely tied to your
             | livelihood due to high rents, few social support
             | structures, health insurance often tied to your job, etc.
             | 
             | There's a model of thinking taught in schools and
             | universities that teaches individuals to defer helplessly
             | to their superiors, to be subservient to a fault and
             | respect hierarchies as sacrosanct. When someone abuses that
             | hierarchy, one either has to unlearn their programming, or
             | assume the burden of the imposition of value on their
             | psyche.
        
         | Trasmatta wrote:
         | Related to this: one thing I saw somebody here say one time is
         | that responsibility without authority is a key to burnout.
         | Having the responsibility to complete a large amount of work
         | without the authority to make the decisions needed for that
         | work can be incredibly disempowering, which can make you feel
         | helpless.
         | 
         | More reason to have small teams, cut out middle management,
         | hire good developers, and trust them to make decisions. Being a
         | code monkey is a recipe for burnout.
        
         | kayodelycaon wrote:
         | I think there is a lot to this. Burnout is somewhat poorly
         | defined. The more specific "learned helplessness" would cover a
         | lot of the cases and would be a useful guide for treatment.
        
       | breck wrote:
       | Yes. Don't even need to read it. Anytime you read the sentence
       | "our definition" it's wrong. There is no such thing as "burn
       | out". It's a marketing term. Practice root thinking
       | (https://breckyunits.com/root-thinking.html). Ignore marketing
       | buzz words, especially if they come from social sciences like
       | psychology, psychiatry, et cetera.
       | 
       | Obviously fatigue is a thing and you need rest, but don't believe
       | anyone who tells you you have some easily labeled condition--it's
       | almost always B.S.
        
         | rzzzt wrote:
         | > All ideas are trees. All products start as ideas. Therefore
         | all products are trees.
         | 
         | The conclusion or the second premise should be changed to make
         | the former a true statement. So either "Therefore all products
         | start as trees" or "All products are ideas".
        
         | quickthrower2 wrote:
         | You need to hold in your mind two completing concepts. One is
         | that you might have a condition, and that condition may not be
         | fully understood by medical science, and need some self-
         | experimentation (for example, meditation, diet, blood tests,
         | psychotherapy, drugs). The other concept is that it might blow
         | over with rest, time or a change in thinking patterns and there
         | is nothing to fix. Since you can't know which is true, both
         | need to be nurtured!
        
           | breck wrote:
           | Agreed. I think the problem is we have 100 "conditions" for
           | every 1 actual physical condition.
        
       | PragmaticPulp wrote:
       | This article went from "everyone was stressed during the
       | pandemic" to "everyone actually has complex PTSD now" alarmingly
       | fast.
       | 
       | The author writes as though they're in a bubble with other
       | extremely-online people. People who can't unplug from the 24/7
       | news feed and instead adopt the world's stresses on to
       | themselves, manifesting as a never-ending cycle of stress and
       | doom:
       | 
       | > The thing that made me wonder the most about what burnout might
       | actually be, in terms of a diagnostic definition, was when we
       | headed back into winter in 2020 after a summer of lockdown,
       | before vaccines were rolled out, and my friends and colleagues
       | started expressing a relationship to time and the future that
       | alarmed me. They began talking about the future as if it didn't
       | exist, as if their imaginative powers were gone. There was no
       | future, there was only this moment, this week, this day, and
       | getting through it. We could be stuck here forever was the vibe
       | at large.
       | 
       | I hope it goes without saying that this author is not qualified
       | to be diagnosing themself or their peers with C-PTSD as defined
       | by the ICD-11. We should all be cautious against articles trying
       | to apply serious mental health issues to broad swaths of the
       | general population. Furthermore, it's not really fair to people
       | suffering from severe PTSD or C-PTSD to start watering down these
       | terms such that everyone has the same condition.
       | 
       | I don't think we're doing anyone a favor by redefining everything
       | as trauma these days. The pandemic was more stressful than
       | average and many people certainly did acquire trauma through the
       | loss of loved ones and other extreme events. However, if we're
       | getting to the point that merely _existing through_ the pandemic
       | is a traumatic experience producing C-PTSD, the real issue likely
       | lies in one 's inability to handle stress and unplug from the
       | 24/7 news cycle.
        
         | fellowniusmonk wrote:
         | This is not a rebuttal of what you are saying and I think your
         | caution is valid, but your post prompted a musing about
         | observations of my elders (all whom have now passed away.)
         | 
         | All of my grandparents and great aunts/uncles who lived through
         | the great depression and ww2 (some actively fighting and some
         | not), all the men and women seemed to be quite traumatized and
         | in fact much of their personality seemed permanently defined by
         | the great depression, even more so than ww2 (with the exception
         | of one uncle who was in a foxhole during the battle of the
         | bulge.), often to the point of irrational and even harmful
         | decision making, including hoarding in a couple cases.
         | 
         | This was true even though none of them were financially ruined,
         | forced to move, destitute or food insecure during either
         | period.
         | 
         | I think cultural contagion, existential worry and trauma/coping
         | mechanisms/adaptive personality change existed prior to the
         | plugged in life and 24/7 news cycle (though those two things
         | exacerbate it for sure.)
        
           | throwaway22032 wrote:
           | They're called life-changing events, right? :)
           | 
           | The daily experience you have today of being able to walk
           | into Walmart or whatever and just buy whatever you want means
           | that you have a certain level of confidence in life.
           | Generally, people buy dishwashing liquid when it runs out,
           | not weeks before with a buffer. If you had to live through a
           | period in which you could go to the store and not find
           | anything, or perhaps no money, or perhaps you can't go out
           | because it's dangerous outside, etc, then you're going to
           | treat that differently, perhaps for your entire life.
           | 
           | Before coronavirus happened there were a ton of things that I
           | had planned to do during my life. They all seemed so certain,
           | like, provided I'm in good health, I can do all of that stuff
           | over the next few decades.
           | 
           | But then it was all ripped away. Not all of it came back. Not
           | all of it _is_ coming back. And so that experience has made
           | me far more short-termist in my outlook. Do it now while you
           | can, etc. I think many people feel the same way.
        
         | dkarl wrote:
         | I also think it was somewhat appropriate not to have a concrete
         | idea of the future early in the pandemic. We didn't know what
         | was coming. Lots of speculation turned out to be false. One
         | scenario that was suggested very early on was a low single-
         | digit percentage of young healthy adults being hospitalized,
         | which could realistically have caused interruptions in basic
         | municipal services in some places. Other scenarios were too
         | optimistic. We really didn't know the future and couldn't make
         | firm plans about it. Feeling that way all the time, no matter
         | whether it's appropriate, is a symptom. Feeling that way when
         | it makes perfect sense is not a symptom.
        
         | ogoparootbbo wrote:
         | > People who can't unplug from the 24/7 news feed and instead
         | adopt the world's stresses on to themselves, manifesting as a
         | never-ending cycle of stress and doom
         | 
         | The adopting the world's stresses seems to be something I've
         | observed with the newer generations. No actual problem solving
         | but merely adopting the stress which I wonder is a symptom of
         | being overly empathetic but I can't understand why the adoption
         | doesn't progress into actual problem solving? Is it because the
         | average joe regardless of the generation is a bad problem
         | solver and more unrefined free stress is bound to paralyze said
         | joe. Or is it something else?
        
           | legitster wrote:
           | I tend think the problem is that the world is _under-
           | stressed_.
           | 
           | Personal tragedy used to be unbelievably common for humans.
           | Just consider the sheer number of childhood deaths before the
           | year 1800.
           | 
           | If you are a generation that has been raised in a world with
           | few diseases, famines, foreign invasions, and even fewer
           | things like verbal abuse or bullying - by the time you reach
           | adulthood you are probably much, _much_ more sensitive to any
           | sort of negative emotion anywhere.
           | 
           | It's like growing up in a zero-G environment and coming back
           | down to Earth - you have no emotional muscles.
        
             | SoftTalker wrote:
             | I agree. In prior generations, if you survived childhood
             | you probably went to fight in a war as a young adult (if
             | you were male) or you had a loved one who did and you had
             | to struggle to keep things together at home. If you
             | survived that, you had a hard life working in fields or
             | factories until your body was so broken you couldn't do it
             | anymore. You didn't have time to worry about the types of
             | things that many young people have as their big concerns
             | today.
        
             | pessimizer wrote:
             | > I tend think the problem is that the world is under-
             | stressed.
             | 
             | I'd say that it isn't the world that's under-stressed, it's
             | upper-middle class NYC/London feature writers. Other people
             | still suffer plenty.
        
             | bob1029 wrote:
             | In my experience, intentionally stressing yourself in
             | controlled ways (i.e. with exercise) is an incredibly
             | effective way to counteract this issue.
        
             | PragmaticPulp wrote:
             | > Personal tragedy used to be unbelievably common for
             | humans. Just consider the sheer number of childhood deaths
             | before the year 1800.
             | 
             | While the troughs of that sorrow are undoubtedly deeper,
             | childhood deaths in your family weren't a 24/7 stressor.
             | 
             | I think the issue is that people can log in to Reddit,
             | Twitter, or even any news website and receive a constant
             | stream of tragedy, bad news, and worry. It's no longer an
             | exception, it's the everyday experience available on
             | demand.
             | 
             | I see this come up in extremely online young people I work
             | with: They're always invested in a new tragedy or
             | catastrophe or drama or concern somewhere in the world, but
             | those worries disappear and get replaced with a new one as
             | soon as the news cycles shift. They weren't actually
             | invested in it, they were just reacting to what they put in
             | front of their eyes for hours per day.
        
               | MrLeap wrote:
               | This probably depends on the parent. One of my brothers
               | died when I was in 3rd grade. After that, the head vice
               | was pretty much constant until my mom kicked me out at
               | 14. Things rapidly improved after that.
        
           | vlunkr wrote:
           | I would say it's because they are stressed about problems
           | that are much too big for them. A single person has
           | essentially 0 influence over politics, climate change, and
           | social issues, yet people spend hours a day getting fed news
           | and hot takes over these issues, on any side of the political
           | spectrum. Surely ingesting so much of this content will
           | impact your mental health. If it turns into some sort of
           | productive action, that's great, but that may not be the
           | natural response for everyone.
        
             | rocketbop wrote:
             | > I would say it's because they are stressed about problems
             | that are much too big for them.
             | 
             | I have heard these described as gravity problems; problems
             | that might be worth solving, if they are solvable at all,
             | but which are almost certainly not the problems you should
             | be concerning yourself with. Instead finding the right
             | sized problems and solving them can be very satisfying.
        
         | throwaway22032 wrote:
         | I'd agree with you in the general sense that people need to
         | unplug from the news, however, unfortunately that doesn't solve
         | the problem here.
         | 
         | Between 2020 and 2022 in many countries we were prevented by
         | law from engaging in everyday activities. Even for those of us
         | who decided to take calculated risks, life as a whole became
         | incredibly difficult and stressful because simply talking about
         | anything at all became a political battleground. Coronavirus
         | became _everything_, we were following arrows around on the
         | floor for christ's sake.
         | 
         | Some countries are still engaged in such practices, e.g. I'd
         | love to visit China but it's not effectively possible; the
         | China of pre-2020 doesn't exist. At the moment it feels as if I
         | missed out on visiting it, potentially forever.
         | 
         | I lost my job during lockdown, twice, and at the moment those
         | workplaces no longer exist. What I consider to be my career no
         | longer exists. It may come back, but at this point I can't rely
         | on it.
         | 
         | These events have been traumatic for me. I've lost a huge
         | amount of trust in people, to the extent that making any kind
         | of medium to long term plan seems pointless because society
         | could simply decide to completely up-end the existing
         | structures again.
         | 
         | I can plan for "there may be an infectious disease". I can plan
         | for losing a family member. I can't plan for losing my partner,
         | and I can't plan for "anything you want to do might suddenly
         | become illegal with zero notice; the career you train for might
         | disappear overnight; society may arbitrarily turn against you".
         | 
         | I've not been back to work since. Aside from a few events (like
         | meeting my current partner), my life still feels as if I'm in a
         | bad dream and I'm waiting to wake up in 2019.
         | 
         | > expressing a relationship to time and the future that alarmed
         | me. They began talking about the future as if it didn't exist
         | 
         | I feel a lot of affinity with this, actually. The future I
         | trained for and built my life around disappeared.
        
       | jpswade wrote:
       | Burnout is the loss of momentum.
        
       | nonameiguess wrote:
       | Interesting premise, but I'm having a lot of trouble with this.
       | He says burnout is the default condition of a millennial. Various
       | definitions I've seen seem to disagree on whether that includes
       | me (birth year 1980), but I was in the Army before getting into
       | software and am definitely part of the generation that joined up
       | post 9-11 and served in a pretty horribly-paced environment of
       | long, repeat deployments that continued forever because of how
       | long those wars lasted. Echoing other comments, I've definitely
       | worked under psychopaths, including a guy who bragged about how
       | hard his dick got blowing up hospitals in Mosul. I've seen a lot
       | of what this guy is writing about in terms of people who become
       | totally trapped in the present, believing they have no escape
       | from their current predicament, and also become so accustomed to
       | stress that they lose the ability to live without it and can
       | never adjust back to regular civilian life. This is certainly a
       | form of PTSD, but I have a lot of trouble accepting that anyone
       | working a regular office job in media experiences anything like
       | this.
       | 
       | On the other hand, I'll also echo other comments about the
       | difference between this and what I would personally call burnout.
       | Traumatic jobs can be quite thrilling and produce intense bonds
       | and feelings of mission importance. On the other hand, a modern
       | office job can often result in monotony and a feeling that what
       | you're doing is unimportant bullshit that would leave the world
       | exactly the same if no one ever did it. That tedium is like Bart
       | Simpson being forced to write the same sentence on a chalkboard
       | over and over again for hours on end. That feeling that you're
       | being pushed for no real reason is what leads to burnout.
       | 
       | Contrast the same intense bonds and feeling of mission that comes
       | from being at a fast-growing startup in the early days, where
       | every decision has a magnified importance because the difference
       | between life and death for your organization is so razor thin, to
       | something like the purely manufactured urgency happening at
       | Twitter right now. Pushing yourself to the absolute limit for a
       | real mission tends to be the kind of thing people eventually
       | become tired of, but nonetheless look back fondly on and miss a
       | bit when they're honest with themselves, even if you can't do it
       | for a lifetime. But deadlines for the sake of deadlines and
       | induced scarcity intended to extract startup-level productivity
       | when your situation doesn't actually call for it is what sours
       | people entirely on the very idea of work and capitalism.
       | 
       | As for the pandemic, I think it exposed an uncomfortable reality
       | that most people stuck in the rat race don't exactly appreciate,
       | which is that a whole lot of what we spend our lives doing for
       | work is not "needed" in the sense that consumers will be
       | materially worse off because they have less to consume if we stop
       | producing it, but because our entire economic system is
       | predicated on a level of consumption and growth that can only be
       | achieved through induced demand, fake scarcity, marketing tricks,
       | and busy work. That is, entire industries like salons and barber
       | shops just disappeared for a while and it mattered because those
       | people lost incomes and maybe it also mattered because customers
       | are using interaction with service workers to fill the hole left
       | by the fact they have no real friends, but it didn't matter that
       | anyone's nails and hair looked a little worse.
        
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