[HN Gopher] Dwarf Fortress - randomly generated, persistent fant...
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       Dwarf Fortress - randomly generated, persistent fantasy world
        
       Author : loa_in_
       Score  : 395 points
       Date   : 2022-11-22 20:45 UTC (2 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.bay12games.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.bay12games.com)
        
       | jrm4 wrote:
       | Decided to read the whole thing. For some reason the very last
       | line where they make sure that you know that they have the color
       | black included, twice, is hilarious to me.
       | 
       | There's probably some reason for it though? Anyone know?
        
         | shrx wrote:
         | I think they just want to point out that black is one of the
         | available 16 colors, meaning that there are just 15 colors not
         | counting black.
        
       | mtrpcic wrote:
       | I'm always fascinated by Dwarf Fortress whenever I cross paths
       | with it, particularly from a technical architecture point of
       | view. How did they architect the history simulation? How do they
       | efficiently update everything on each tick? What is the game loop
       | like?
       | 
       | If anyone has any resources or links to articles, either
       | definitive from the DW developer, or conjecture based on
       | exploration and research, I'd love to learn more about how DF
       | works.
        
         | knoebber wrote:
         | > How do they efficiently update everything on each tick?
         | 
         | The player is responsible for some aspects of keeping their
         | game running efficiently.
         | 
         | See:
         | https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Maximizing_fr...
        
         | thoughtFrame wrote:
         | There's another game like that that surprised me: Amazing
         | Cultivation Simulator. I got this video (
         | https://youtube.com/watch?v=wJxM3POU92w ) recommended on
         | youtube and I watched it start to end with my jaw dropping more
         | every time a new mechanic was described. Before that I had
         | thought that big systemic games were stuff like Zelda Breath of
         | the Wild, Minecraft or Dward Fortress. But this simulator game
         | is one I'd like to see the code of
        
         | praptak wrote:
         | Last time I checked they didn't do it particularly efficiently
         | and avoiding "FPS death" was an important part of the lore: cap
         | the number of dwarves, avoid flowing water, wall off unused
         | parts of the mine to reduce costs of pathfinding, add
         | pathfinding weights to tiles, etc.
         | 
         | There's not much published about the internals because the
         | creators keep it to themselves.
        
           | WastingMyTime89 wrote:
           | Cats are the death of fortress. Dwarf fortress is an
           | incredible game but you are right that it's actually amusing
           | the amount of weird things you know you should avoid or
           | manage as a regular player.
        
         | jonchurch_ wrote:
         | One of the creators (Tarn, specifically) does interviews fairly
         | often, talking about the game and progress.
         | 
         | Here's a video telling a very famous story about tracking down
         | a bug that involved alcoholic cats
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAhHkJQ3KgY
         | 
         | There was also a recent article about Dwarf Fortress published
         | to the Stack Overflow blog
         | https://stackoverflow.blog/2021/12/31/700000-lines-of-code-2...
         | 
         | Edit: There's really a decent amount of stuff out there,
         | they've been making the game for almost 20 years now. So here
         | is a talk that tries to explain DF to an audience, and does
         | talk a little about the simulation.
         | 
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykLm2o_cX9w
         | 
         | I adore DF and am one of those folks who enjoys playing, not
         | just watching videos on youtube. If you do want to give it a
         | go, make sure you find an "Intro to DF" type video and follow
         | it. It's a big learning curve but I love the game so much, and
         | knowing the story of it's creation over time makes me love it
         | even more. It is truly a labor of love by two brothers who have
         | chosen to make it their life's work.
        
           | professoretc wrote:
           | I read the SO blog post and thought it was a pretty cool
           | coincidence that Adams was talking about SplitMix64 when I
           | had just recently given a talk about it. Then I scrolled down
           | and saw the video _of my talk_.
        
             | nonethewiser wrote:
             | that's amazing. congrats
        
           | ilyt wrote:
           | > If you do want to give it a go, make sure you find an
           | "Intro to DF" type video and follow it.
           | 
           | Honestly if someone don't mind spending few bucks waiting for
           | Steam release and incoming slew of tutorials might be a
           | better option.
           | 
           | And if you do mind, well,free ascii version will eventually
           | get the new UI too
        
       | tstrimple wrote:
       | The level of detail in Dwarf Fortress is amazing. Just take a
       | look at this bug report:
       | https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9195
       | 
       | TLDR: Code was added that allowed substances to accumulate on
       | fur. Cats lick their fur to clean themselves. Due to the
       | calculation used for intoxication and body weight, cats kept
       | getting lethally drunk from walking through spilled beer and
       | licking it off of their feet.
       | 
       | This level of detail leads to tons of emergent game play and
       | stories.
        
         | lstodd wrote:
         | Haha lol. I maybe still have a screenshot of a Forgotten Beast
         | killing himself by kicking up a dead cat's tooth (the cat was
         | killed by some previous FB) (and the tooth deals a fatality).
         | 
         | The level of detail is amazing.
        
           | ilyt wrote:
           | Yeah there were pretty interesting edge cases with
           | calculations. Like, for example, there is still [1] a bug for
           | a whip doing unreasonable amount of damage in some cases
           | because armour penetration logic was pretty much
           | strength/area = penetration power.
           | 
           | And because whip hit only with tiny end, it pretty much went
           | thru any armour
           | 
           | https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=2712
        
         | bombcar wrote:
         | It's worth studying some of the more famous bug reports as
         | they're perfect examples of emergent issues that can arise in
         | complex situations.
        
         | chx wrote:
         | That's like the legendary carps bug.
         | 
         | > fish and all other creatures are coded similar to Dwarfs for
         | level progression, so training a skill not only improves the
         | skill but also the relevant physical stats. Well, Carps have
         | swimming as a skill. And they are always swimming. So within
         | minutes of spawning every carp was a dwarf-sized mass of angry
         | muscle and razor sharp teeth.
        
       | Daunk wrote:
       | I'm so happy seeing DF reach a larger audience with the Steam
       | release, it's been such a joy to experiment with over the years,
       | and I feel like Zach and Tarn deserve a lot more recognition.
       | 
       | Here's my personal DF tileset - https://github.com/Hezkore/dwarf-
       | fortress-assets
        
       | lstodd wrote:
       | What is more spectacular than even the Dwarf Fortress itself (and
       | it is), are the C++ reverse-engineering tools developed in Common
       | Lisp back in 2010-s. DFHack and Dwarf Therapist were rebased on
       | top of them.
        
       | jrm4 wrote:
       | It's weird to read a line that feels like typical overhyped
       | advertising copy next to a Steam game but that you realize is
       | probably 100% accurate?
       | 
       | Namely "The deepest, most intricate simulation of a world that's
       | ever been created?"
        
         | praptak wrote:
         | This deep and intricate world is inhabited by dumbest, most
         | stubborn dwarves who throw players into depth of frustration,
         | despair and a solid dose of hilarity.
        
       | LAC-Tech wrote:
       | I was really keen on the idea of adventure mode, after watching a
       | fantastic lets play of it [0].
       | 
       | But when I got there I didn't really know what to do inside the
       | sandbox.
       | 
       | [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDX5hmtjqtw
        
       | specproc wrote:
       | Has anyone actually played this? Like, really played it. I've
       | tried a couple of times and never got that far. I'm in awe from
       | one perspective, but not entirely sure what of, from another.
        
         | ink_13 wrote:
         | Yes. Once it clicked it was so engrossing I found I could think
         | of nothing else. Focusing on work was difficult. Dwarf
         | Therapist became indispensable. I knew all of my dwarfs by
         | name, and I had a plan for all of them. My focus became all
         | consuming. I built a windowed tower that could only be
         | comprehensible if you grokked the Z-layer system. I was very
         | close to having a moat filled with lava. In the end, I dug too
         | deep.
         | 
         | I don't allow myself to play DF any more. It's just too good.
        
         | tptacek wrote:
         | Yes. It's one of those things I have to keep uninstalled or
         | it'll randomly suck me back in. AMA.
        
         | hristov wrote:
         | Yes. It is not really that hard, if you consider how they have
         | probably the best wiki of any computer game and a lot of high
         | quality helper programs. If you alt-tab between dwarf fortress,
         | the wiki and dwarf therapist, it is totally doable. And once
         | you play a couple of games you start to get the internal logic
         | of DF and becomes kind of fun.
        
         | ilyt wrote:
         | Steam version with better UI and graphics released 6th December
         | 
         | I did "actually played it", think the biggest thing I did was a
         | lava cannon that flooded the area aboveground when invasion
         | game, that was "interesting" build...
         | 
         | Having to relearn everything on interface stopped me from
         | picking it up again, and from what I watched new UI look so
         | much more user friendly
        
         | robomc wrote:
         | Nearly a decade ago I played it a bit over a couple of months.
         | I'd guess 30 hours or so (which is a lot for me, I'm a gaming
         | dabbler, aside from the civ and fromsoft games). It was pretty
         | playable IMO, and would really pull you in, just tedious to
         | navigate the menus.
         | 
         | I eventually got kind of tired of investing so much effort into
         | a fortress that would just randomly fall apart. People say
         | that's part of the fun but I dunno... I found that aspect a bit
         | annoying. It also ran really poorly for me in late game and
         | that kind of put me off too.
         | 
         | Great concept, the ascii is less of a problem than you'd think,
         | but overall just a bit too much effort to keep wanting to come
         | back for more.
        
         | praptak wrote:
         | I can get to 80-100 dwarves without huge problems but then I
         | usually get bored with the micromanagement.
         | 
         | DF is not hard if you follow the quickstart guide.
        
       | rpastuszak wrote:
       | Fantasy World is a _bit_ of an understatement. It 's one of the
       | toughest and deepest simulations one can find.
        
       | helf wrote:
       | I've played DF off an on for ~15 years. Love it always get an
       | upvote.
        
         | Loughla wrote:
         | I go back to read boatmurdered at least once a year just for
         | the chuckles (and the reminiscing about SA forums back in the
         | day).
         | 
         | Then I play DF for a month or so and remember just how
         | intricate and IMPOSSIBLE it is to understand completely.
         | 
         | What an amazing game.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | Ancalagon wrote:
       | I really need to get into this. But on the other hand, if I start
       | playing I have a feeling I might not stop.
        
         | ilyt wrote:
         | It's actually not bad game to have running on second screen and
         | just poke at it from time to time as your dwarves are working
         | and building stuff. Kinda perfect "podcast game"
        
       | namuol wrote:
       | Frontend UX developer perspective on DF: The ascii interface is
       | actually fine and mostly a superficial complaint. The real
       | problem is just how hard the many interfaces are to navigate and
       | learn, and how unconventional their designs are. If I could pick
       | one thing for the UI team to focus on: DF needs a "command
       | palette" to help find/learn all of the game's many functions.
        
         | bombcar wrote:
         | The Steam version has a much-cleaned up UI including things
         | like normalizing menu items, commands, etc.
         | 
         | I agree that it isn't actually that bad, and there is (was?) a
         | form of logic to it and it eventually became second nature.
        
           | Buttons840 wrote:
           | Will those improvements make it to non-Steam versions? I'm
           | kind of bummed the Steam version is Windows only (according
           | to Steam at least).
        
             | chmod775 wrote:
             | At release. A Mac and Linux release is planned for later.
             | 
             | > [..] We also have the Classic ASCII mode to support, and
             | we are also working on Mac and Linux builds.
             | 
             | https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/975370/view/3099043
             | 8...
        
         | mlatu wrote:
         | "once you get into it its actually quite easy to navigate in"
         | is something i would have said back when i played, at least ten
         | years ago though
        
           | namuol wrote:
           | I agree, but pretty much every UI has its own learning curve
           | to get over, and taken together it's just overwhelming to get
           | started with. Curious to see how the tutorial system in the
           | premium version helps address this. I'm cautiously hopeful
           | but still doubt I will have the time to properly run a
           | fortress. Maybe we'll see the premium version lead to a jump
           | in DF as a spectator sport given the much richer graphics
           | library.
        
             | coder-3 wrote:
             | Time is what's been preventing me from getting into DF. Do
             | I need to spend a significant amount of time on this game
             | to get a good experience? Could I get away with, say, one
             | hour once in a while? I'd probably need to invest time
             | upfront to learn the basics though.
        
           | sdenton4 wrote:
           | It's genuinely terrible. I played enough to 'get it' at one
           | point, then walked away for six months. When I came back had
           | forgotten how to navigate the menus and just gave up, as it
           | didn't seem worth it. Different kinds of branching per menu,
           | different idioms for hotkey letters per menu.... just a mess.
        
         | MiddleEndian wrote:
         | I've always played with the help of Dwarf Therapist, a second
         | program that helps you manage everything spreadsheet-style.
        
           | Buttons840 wrote:
           | Last time I played I used Dwarf Therapist, and it definitely
           | helps with min-maxing, but I've been thinking maybe min-
           | maxing isn't the right way to play this game and I should
           | just be happy with the in-game interface?
        
           | hinkley wrote:
           | So we have spreadsheets in space (Eve Online) and now
           | spreadsheets underground...
        
       | bombcar wrote:
       | One of the things I love is that you can generate a world, play a
       | fortress, eventually lose (it's fun!(tm)) and then start another
       | fortress in the same world, _and your new fortress will have
       | references to your old one_ - in the carvings, legends, etc.
        
         | hinkley wrote:
         | Kruggsmash likes to play necromancers, and then has to fight
         | necromancers two games later. What goes around comes around.
        
         | ilyt wrote:
         | More than that. Artifact can be stolen from your fortress then
         | you can go in adventure mode to track it down and steal it
         | back. Well the "track down" part would probably be done in
         | legends mode coz it would be hard to scour the whole world to
         | find a single artifact but still
        
         | Shared404 wrote:
         | One thing I want to jump into is the Adventurer mode! Nothing
         | quite like the idea of building (and losing) several
         | fortresses, and then going through them to explore as the "new
         | generation". Haven't played DF yet, but it's very much on my
         | list.
        
           | mttyng wrote:
           | Is that what Adventure Mode is? I've been playing DF off-and-
           | on since 2013(ish), but I've never tried adventure mode.
        
             | bombcar wrote:
             | Adventure mode is more like a 'standard' RPG-style
             | adventure, similar to nethack but entirely generated. https
             | ://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Adventurer_mo...
             | 
             | It doesn't have as much polish as Fortress mode, but it can
             | be quite fun if you like the nethack style of "die early,
             | die awesome, die often".
        
           | bombcar wrote:
           | Even if you don't actually play, _Legends_ mode alone can be
           | interesting.
           | 
           | https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Legends
        
       | xnx wrote:
       | I want to get into this, but the randomly generated nature has
       | always been an (irrational?) turn-off. I guess I want more
       | editorial choice in the level design.
        
         | MiddleEndian wrote:
         | On top of what bombcar mentioned, you also get to choose your
         | embark spot within your tuned world.
        
           | bombcar wrote:
           | And you can post a world on the forums and ask people for a
           | "good embark spot" and they'll find different ones for you.
           | 
           | It's amusing what people consider "necessities" and
           | "absolutely not" in embark spots; some people will never
           | touch an aquifer, others it's not even something to look at.
        
         | bombcar wrote:
         | You do control a large number of aspects of world generation,
         | which can be used to "tune" the game from very easy to
         | impossibly difficult.
         | 
         | And once you have parameters you like, you can try different
         | seeds.
         | 
         | https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:World_generat...
         | 
         | https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Advanced_worl...
         | 
         | Also, people will post seeds and world parameters for "good
         | worlds" they've found:
         | https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Worldgen_exam...
        
         | ilyt wrote:
         | The better UI(and paid) version drops on Steam 6th of December.
         | Probably the best time to give it a shot.
         | 
         | And it is not "just" randomly generated. For example, the
         | rivers flow where there are rocky paths in the terrain
         | 
         | Rocky paths are there because during worldgen game simulated
         | erosion.
         | 
         | Erosion is made by simulated rainfall
         | 
         | Simulated rainfall depends in winds and location of a given
         | terrain.
         | 
         | And only at the start of that chain there is "random
         | generation".
         | 
         | > I guess I want more editorial choice in the level design.
         | 
         | Then tell your dwarves to build what you want, you can make
         | pretty grand scale things in it.
        
       | brown wrote:
       | Not sure why Dwarf Fortress is on the front page, but I will
       | always upvote.
       | 
       | If you're intimidated by ASCII visuals, consider wishlisting the
       | graphics release, scheduled for Dec 6, 2022:
       | https://store.steampowered.com/app/975370/Dwarf_Fortress/
        
         | schlauerfox wrote:
         | The technical complexity got me through a really tough time
         | where I could hide in the world, ascii only on a pavilion
         | convertible laptop. Good times, impenetrable gameplay.
        
           | ilyt wrote:
           | The Steam version OP mentioned fixes that
        
         | PhasmaFelis wrote:
         | Is the UI getting an overhaul as well? I could probably deal
         | with the ASCII, but I'm picky about UI design, and what I've
         | heard about the interface sounds like it would make me have a
         | tantrum and smash my menacing rhyolite cave sock.
        
           | jibe wrote:
           | They've revamped the UI. Here is a dev blog post with an
           | early screenshot from 2021.
           | 
           | https://steamcommunity.com/games/975370/announcements/detail.
           | ..
        
           | tptacek wrote:
           | Careful what you wish for. Some of the Dwarf Fortress
           | endorphins are a product of the horrible user interface;
           | asking for a more intuitive interface (at times) is like
           | asking for an easier Soulsborne boss. Ask enough times and
           | you have Horizon Forbidden West instead of Bloodborne.
        
           | bombcar wrote:
           | The old UI is like a well-worn sock for me, fits perfectly
           | and I know where the holes are.
           | 
           | But yes, the new version has an entirely redone UI to greatly
           | organize and simplify things.
           | 
           | The updates here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/975370 go
           | into more details - there's even a tutorial!
        
         | jrm4 wrote:
         | Whoooaaa.
         | 
         | So, this has been a game that's always fascinated me, though
         | when trying to play myself I nope out within minutes.
         | 
         | On one hand, graphics might get me there -- and yet, even to
         | me, it feels kinda wrong :)
        
         | rococode wrote:
         | As a Rimworld lover who couldn't quite get past the ASCII in
         | Dwarf Fortress, I'm super excited for the upcoming release!
         | Rimworld has been a blast and I've heard the two games have
         | many similarities (with Rimworld maybe being a slightly more
         | approachable game that's a bit shallower).
        
           | tstrimple wrote:
           | I love ribworld as well! It's my most played game by far at
           | this point. The mod ecosystem is simply outstanding. That
           | being said, it doesn't even attempt to be the simulation
           | engine that Dwarf Fortress does. It feels like DF is a
           | simulation engine first, with emergent game play almost as a
           | side effect. As much as I like DF, that simulation first
           | development process can be felt during almost every
           | interaction in the game. It's not so bad once you've
           | committed everything to muscle memory, but the learning curve
           | is no joke.
           | 
           | https://i.stack.imgur.com/iECXl.jpg
        
             | bombcar wrote:
             | The new version is going to fix some of that; the
             | normalization of menus, etc, will go a long way to "making
             | it feel more game-like".
        
             | krisroadruck wrote:
             | if you like these games you might also like Oxygen Not
             | Included. It's side-on view instead of top down, but is
             | another excellent little ant farm to sink a couple thousand
             | hours into. Sort of a Rimworld meets Factorio type vibe.
        
               | ericbarrett wrote:
               | > is another excellent little ant farm
               | 
               | I call ONI my "dollhouse."
               | 
               | It's such a sleeper compared to similar games. The art
               | and sound effects really elevate it. Klei has such a
               | unique art style and it's really shown off. Also has a
               | much more interesting "survival" curve than most; you'll
               | be presented with many _many_ hours of challenges trying
               | to get a sustainable base, without cheap tricks like
               | ever-escalating interruptions based on quantitative
               | progress (looking at you, Rimworld.)
        
           | intelVISA wrote:
           | You'll definitely love DF then, I believe the Steam release
           | is soon and includes some nice QoL improvements like a
           | tileset and mouse UX.
        
           | munk-a wrote:
           | If you can stomach the adjustment period for ASCII I'd really
           | recommend it. I think it does something a lot of modern games
           | miss out on - it encourages imagination first. The
           | information given to the player is extremely dense and easy
           | to parse once you've adjusted and you're giving your brain a
           | chance to try and play inside your own head. I've built a
           | glorious six floor tavern (slowly) with engravings on every
           | surface - even those not reachable by pathing, why? because I
           | had an image of a tavern floor full of rowdy miners with
           | opera boxes circling the room above them for dwarves of a
           | more refined taste... in the end it's just a box you need to
           | floor scroll to see on the screen but the carved pillars in
           | the middle of the room - the enclaves for dwarves to, in
           | hushed voices, discuss just how beautiful gold is - and the
           | grand skylight in the middle of the ceiling casting a rainbow
           | of different colored light on the ground below... that's
           | awesome.
           | 
           | Dwarf fortress is the first thing since MUDing that's really
           | scratched the imagination itch in quite that way and, as
           | someone who has worked in game development themselves, I
           | think it's something that is only possible if you keep to the
           | lowest tech. If you use words or abstract symbols then each
           | player will fill in the details themselves, usually in their
           | head but sometimes in artwork (see Kruggsmash as an
           | approachable example here[1]) which can be extremely
           | fulfilling.
           | 
           | I hope to see the non-ASCII version work as a gateway drug to
           | get more people into the imagination of what they're
           | building. And I hope this didn't come off as ranty or
           | judgemental - each person enjoys games in different ways...
           | but low detail art has a way of really spurring the
           | imagination on!
           | 
           | 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojT99rDmq5M
        
             | omoikane wrote:
             | I agree with the "encourages imagination" argument, and
             | also that ASCII modes might be more practical. I have
             | played Nethack in ASCII mode and tried a few graphical
             | variants, and always returned to the ASCII version because
             | it's easier to tell the enemies apart and easier to see
             | what's going on.
        
             | bombcar wrote:
             | This is the key for me - DF is like Sim City or other
             | building games (including Minecraft) - you have to be able
             | to create your _own_ goals. Sure, you can keep trying more
             | and more difficult embark locations, but after awhile you
             | 'll have DF down well enough that you can survive
             | 'indefinitely' on underground farms behind impenetrable
             | walls.
             | 
             | So you begin to do other things, mega projects are a common
             | one.
        
             | kgwxd wrote:
             | I played Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead in ASCII long before I
             | even looked at screenshots of the tiles. Worse than getting
             | stuck with Ben Affleck in the movie of a book you loved.
             | The Jabberwocky was in the screen shot I saw, the
             | description gave such a spooky mental image, but now all I
             | see in my head is the 8-bit swamp monster thingy, like
             | something from the original Castlevania.
        
             | dwringer wrote:
             | My favorite thing about the engravings (and statues and
             | similar art) is that not only is it based on real dwarves,
             | gods, etc. from the current game world, but you can
             | commission pieces about specific dwarves and the artisans
             | will commemorate battles or other milestone events that
             | involved them.
             | 
             | In one of the last times I played, some invader had broken
             | through my defenses and killed a couple of highly respected
             | dwarves (one of whom was a skilled fighter), but finally
             | came face to face with a young girl dwarf who confronted
             | him in one of the dining halls and, though she lost a leg,
             | managed to kill him (eventually recovering to grow up to be
             | a skilled craftsdwarf). I had a some statues made of her,
             | and most of them came out depicting the heroic deed in
             | different levels of detail (so of course the best one was
             | put up in that dining hall).
             | 
             | There's also a sort-of-exploit related to this, where if
             | there's a stranger in your fortress whom you suspect of
             | having a nefarious background, you can commission artwork
             | of them and sometimes it will reveal malicious traits about
             | them if you examine it. The artists always seem to have
             | perfect knowledge of their subjects.
        
             | ilyt wrote:
             | Clearly we need to feed DF generated descriptions to AI and
             | generate tilesets for that /s
             | 
             | ASCII version will get the new UI Soon(tm)
             | 
             | Personally I don't think the new look they're going with
             | will be problem with imagination for me - the new look adds
             | just enough detail that you can spot dwarf by their look
             | alone but there is still plenty of space to imagine how
             | exactly the described things look
        
           | hinkley wrote:
           | I watched about 30 hours of Kruggsmash's narrations of his
           | Dwarf Fortress runs on Youtube, hoping it would 'sell' me on
           | DF. What happened instead is that I played way more Rimworld
           | and Oxygen Not Included than I had been playing.
           | 
           | Most days I preferred ONI due having to go way out of your
           | way to commit war crimes, whereas in Rimworld it's just
           | clicking a couple buttons.
        
             | bergenty wrote:
             | Same, ended up intensely playing rimworld for a month
             | before it got too repetitive for me and I stopped.
        
             | ilyt wrote:
             | Here is new UI with someone new to DF and developer guiding
             | them:
             | 
             | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLN8cOcTjdo&
        
         | sdenton4 wrote:
         | Does the framerate still decline steadily to zero as you expand
         | your fortress?
        
         | andremedeiros wrote:
         | Thank you for reminding me, I've been meaning to wishlist this
         | for a while. Excited they finally have a release date set!
        
         | etempleton wrote:
         | I am excited for the graphics release as I have always been
         | fascinated by Dwarf Fortress, but do not think I have the
         | patience to learn how to parse the ASCII visuals.
        
         | kennu wrote:
         | Nice to see there is a release date now! Wishlisted quite a
         | while ago already, when no date was set.
        
         | RektBoy wrote:
         | ASCII is not a problem, since there is ton of graphics packs.
         | 
         | But controls, controls are ridiculous. I can't just enjoy it.
         | And I play very hard games, indie games, Ultima Online which
         | you need to script own things to play properly. But DF is
         | another beast.
        
           | jessfyi wrote:
           | The version being released on steam also includes extensive
           | UX/UI updates, OP just left that out.
        
           | ilyt wrote:
           | The graphics version also did MASSIVE pass on every control.
           | 
           | Like, instead of going "select bed, make bedroom, repeat 40
           | times", you can just make rooms, put beds, doors, etc, then
           | just select whole area and it will make a bedroom out of each
           | of those rooms.
           | 
           | camera controls are normal WASD now, most of the things can
           | be done with mouse, there are tabs on panels and hyperlinks
           | in legend browser and thousand other little things.
           | 
           | It will be coming eventually to free ASCII version too
        
         | PeterisP wrote:
         | The Lazy Newb Pack (and other third-party options) has been an
         | easy way to get cute graphics for Dwarf Fortress for many, many
         | years now.
        
           | signalToNose wrote:
           | But the UI has all joy and ease of Emacs
        
             | bombcar wrote:
             | But it has the power and learning curve of Emacs, too!
        
             | ilyt wrote:
             | The commenter above did mention the new UI is coming this
             | december.
             | 
             | Long story short it got upgraded from Emacs to IntelliJ
             | IDEA.
        
             | tptacek wrote:
             | The ease is like 80% of the joy.
        
         | agiacalone wrote:
         | Love the ASCII version, but totally buying to support the devs.
        
           | mjamesaustin wrote:
           | Just a heads up, if you purchase on itch.io rather than
           | Steam, the devs receive a larger share of the revenue.
           | (Though obviously it's not integrated into Steam, if you
           | prefer that.)
           | 
           | https://kitfoxgames.itch.io/dwarf-fortress
        
             | Daunk wrote:
             | Noted. I will buy it on both itch.io and Steam then.
        
               | munk-a wrote:
               | Considering I've given them a few bucks a month for a
               | decade and a bit now which doesn't even come close to the
               | value I've gotten that is a great idea.
        
           | deelowe wrote:
           | As soon as I learned why Tarn needed to put out a paid
           | release on Steam, I committed to purchasing even if I never
           | play it.
        
             | MikeTheGreat wrote:
             | You can't just leave a comment like that and walk away from
             | it. :)
             | 
             | Why did Tarn need to put out a paid release?
             | 
             | (I think I know / I kinda remember, but hey - there's no
             | better place to tell us why we should be helping a fellow
             | geek)
        
               | nonethewiser wrote:
               | As I recall he had some medical issues to pay for. The
               | other brother didnt have insurance nor a regular
               | income... just his split of the DF donation money.
               | 
               | It bring up a lot of criticism of healthcare in the US
               | which I don't quite understand. Yes, healthcare is
               | expensive in the US, especially without insurance. It has
               | been for a while, so dont be surprised when not having a
               | regular income nor insurance puts you in a bad spot. It
               | was poor planning as much as it is expensive healthcare.
               | 
               | It basically amounts to one day realizing "oh shit,
               | $35,000/year and no health insurance isn't enough money.
               | This is the fault of the United States."
        
               | munk-a wrote:
               | Very briefly as a counter example - these folks made a
               | thing that thousands maybe tens of thousands of people
               | treasure. They've worked on it as a passion project and
               | when ill luck befell them they had to scramble to secure
               | funds. Yes, we live in a capitalist system but supporting
               | neat art like this and exploratory projects is a societal
               | investment that the US has stiffly refused to make. The
               | more we provide social safety nets the more folks will be
               | free to do experimental and artistic work and give us
               | gems like dwarf fortress.
               | 
               | This isn't the fault of the United States - the US has
               | made a choice in how the game works and they weren't
               | playing by the rules laid out for them to follow. The
               | expected course was for them to work in some job that
               | robs them of their free time to produce a work of this
               | caliber and if they had done so they'd be just fine...
               | and we wouldn't have dwarf fortress.
        
               | deelowe wrote:
               | https://gamerant.com/dwarf-fortress-interview-new-age-
               | health...
        
               | bombcar wrote:
               | A hospital/illness scare made them realize they have
               | nothing setup for illness/insurance and need a more
               | secure source of income.
               | 
               | It's probably true that if word got out that Tarn or Zack
               | needed medical care, the donations would flow like water,
               | but it's understandable wanting to prepare.
        
               | ilyt wrote:
               | American healthcare system
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | mminer237 wrote:
           | You can also just donate directly:
           | http://www.bay12games.com/support.html
           | 
           | They used to personally make a crayon drawing for each person
           | who donated. They stopped in 2020, but I made sure to get one
           | of the final ones before then:
           | http://www.bay12games.com/support.html
           | 
           | My $10 was a small price to pay for all the hours of fun I
           | got. (I'll surely buy the Steam version too though.)
        
       | pearjuice wrote:
       | I've tried playing and actually getting into this game a few
       | times (including installing tile packs, walkthrough saves and
       | what not), but the game mechanics are obtuse and have such a high
       | learning curve that frustration is easier found than any sense of
       | enjoyment. For a game focused on being so meticulous and extra-
       | vagant in its mechanics, it's sad that enjoying it or "having
       | fun" seems something completely out of reach with hours of
       | gameplay, reading third-party wikis and starter guides.
        
       | jiggawatts wrote:
       | The thing that gets me about Dwarf Fortress is that it's a 64-bit
       | text-mode game.
       | 
       | As a grey-haired developer who got excited about "DOS Extenders"
       | that allowed 32-bit mode, seeing a text-mode game written as a
       | native 64-bit application is bizarrely anachronistic.
       | 
       | I get a similar feeling from text-mode GUI frameworks for Rust,
       | which allow multi-threading and 64-bit but are essentially clones
       | of Borland Turbo Vision, where you had to be mindful to keep
       | lists smaller than 64KB: https://github.com/gyscos/cursive
        
         | babuskov wrote:
         | You might find Rogue Bit interesting:
         | 
         | https://store.steampowered.com/app/949790/Rogue_Bit/
         | 
         | It's a modern game about hacking internals of an 8-bit computer
         | by walking a single bit through it's memory.
         | 
         | Visually it looks like an ASCII roguelike game, but it's
         | actually a niche puzzle game for people who like machine
         | language, assembly and computer internals.
        
         | ilyt wrote:
         | Not for long
         | 
         | https://store.steampowered.com/app/975370/Dwarf_Fortress/
         | 
         | Graphical+UI/controls rewrite in few weeks!
        
           | stolen_biscuit wrote:
           | Both versions will be supported :) "Classic" DF isn't going
           | anywhere
        
       | PointyFluff wrote:
       | this.
       | 
       | not the lame knock-off that is rimworld.
        
       | Kiro wrote:
       | What made you randomly post Dwarf Fortress now with this
       | undescriptive and confusing title? Very peculiar.
        
         | loa_in_ wrote:
         | Titles need to be short, and relevant to the content. I took
         | words straight from the Features section.
         | 
         | Now, because with all the talk about AI agents I was thinking
         | about the environments, and that's when I remembered this. It
         | very much can be inspiring, even if it's not strictly relevant
         | technology-wise.
        
           | Kiro wrote:
           | I understand but I don't think the title is very
           | representative of the game. Regardless, Dwarf Fortress gets
           | posted here a lot so I definitely think it's relevant:
           | https://hn.algolia.com/?q=dwarf+fortress
        
       | lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
       | The story of Boatmurdered[0] has given me a good go-to seed for
       | other games with procedural generation. It's well worth the read
       | if you have an afternoon.
       | 
       | [0] https://lparchive.org/Dwarf-Fortress-Boatmurdered/
        
         | jameshart wrote:
         | Boatmurdered is representative of a very old version of the
         | game.
         | 
         | For more modern DF storytelling I would encourage you to check
         | out Kruggsmash on YouTube, in particular his Scorchfountain
         | series:
         | https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXX7Rp0iXj0l998LmVC6xIRHj...
         | 
         | Krugg gives due reverence to the generated descriptions of his
         | dwarves and their world and incorporates them into his emergent
         | storytelling and illustration in a very elegant way.
        
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