[HN Gopher] Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from... ___________________________________________________________________ Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE Author : susam Score : 77 points Date : 2022-11-25 18:19 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.sciencehistory.org) (TXT) w3m dump (www.sciencehistory.org) | exabrial wrote: | I recently learned in order for a product to have the Gore-Tex | label, not only do you have to license the process/formula from | them, but you have to send engineering samples to them and they | perform their own independent testing before allowing you to | actually sell the product. | | There's no doubt part of the success is the chemistry of the | product, but the required independent testing to very high | standards also likely plays a large part in the quality of the | final products. | gorbypark wrote: | Not only that, but Gore will honour their "guaranteed to keep | you dry" warranty. I had a Gore-Tex jacket that the | manufacturer refused to replace after it delaminated about 3 | years after I bought it. One call to Gore and I got the | purchase price of the jacket in a prepaid credit card sent to | me after sending them the jacket. | [deleted] | BiteCode_dev wrote: | Wonderful fabric for mountain gear. | | Unfortunately, like Teflon cooking pans, its amazing properties | come from a coating with perfluorinated octyl sulfonate, a known | endocrine disruptor: | | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7722801/ | adrr wrote: | Teflon(brand) coated pans don't use PFOA or PFOS in their | manufacture and PFOA is banned in the US for cookware. | VygmraMGVl wrote: | The title says this is expanded PTFE, which seems like it | wouldn't need an additional PFOTS coating. I doubt it would | shed similar small molecules to a PFOTS coating as it's a | different material (polymerized tetrafluoroethylene). | | I also doubt you would get similar endocrine disruption with | PTFE polymerization biproducts since you won't have the "polar | head/fluorinated tail" structure that PFOTS has. | dylan604 wrote: | Setting aside the issues from waste during the manufacturing | process and the messes that have been made (see 3M plants for | example), is the actual Gore-tex product itself hazardous? | Like, how much of the material do you have to eat, and how | edible is the Gore-tex product? I get Teflon coatings | scratching and getting mixed with the prepared food, but I | typically don't go around gnawing on my clothing. Does Gore-tex | leach anything that can absorbed by the skin while wearing it? | benj111 wrote: | Am I the only one that assumed this was some kind of LaTex thing, | and got increasingly confused about the increasingly _hip_ | Silicon Valley lingo. | | "Yeah man, the latest AI NFT food delivery app plugin is totally | _waterproof_ " | jcampbell1 wrote: | The interesting thing about Gore-TEX is that is no longer | patented, and is merely a licensed trademark that brands pay for. | The Gore company certifies the designs, and it goes well beyond | stretched PTFE. They require a final level of breathability, | waterproof seams, various construction techniques, etc. | | Bob Gore is known for being a savvy businessman, and this is one | example of how to turn a 20 year patent into a 100 year revenue | stream. | UncleOxidant wrote: | Is this why I'm not seeing a lot of rain gear with Gore-Tex | anymore? It seemed like it was pretty common about 20 years | back which would coincide with the patent still being in | effect. | hyperhopper wrote: | The thing is, the brand means a lot here. | | I've tried probably a majority of the major alternatives. Every | winter sports company will claim their version of goretex is | just as good, but they all fall short, usually waterproofing, | or sometimes they just suffer from the garbage bag effect. | | Either way, I've spent hundreds of dollars on too many copycats | to ever bother with non-goretex again. It's not financially | worth it | jcampbell1 wrote: | I agree with everything you said, and the Gore company is in | the business of certifying the jacket will perform well. | | That being said, for fishing where you are going to get fish | guts everywhere, lots of people are now wearing this super | cheap Frogg Toggs brand rather than rubbers. There is a place | for super cheap PTFE gear. | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | Don't know if it's the same, these days, but when I was more | "outdoorsy," having the Gore-TEX(tm) label on something always at | least doubled the price. | | We usually considered it to be worth it. | le-mark wrote: | Isn't it actually "water resistant" though? I spent a lot of | nights cold and wet in gore-Tex gear. It would stay dry for a | few hours but always soak through. | ryeights wrote: | It is, but after a certain point the face fabric becomes | saturated with water and breathability drops to ~zero. At | that point your body's own moisture can no longer escape | through the jacket and you become wet from the inside. | loeg wrote: | That's true of the 3-layer designs (the inner layer is | goretex but the outer protective layer can soak through | eventually). There are newer products that are only two | layers and goretex is the outer layer (under the "Shakedry" | brand). Those don't have an outer fabric to saturate with | water, so they stay breathable better. | torstenvl wrote: | It's waterproof if you maintain it. There's special detergent | and whatnot. | | We use Gore-TEX jackets in the Marines, and in the field you | can tell who washed their gear correctly and who didn't. | jakub_g wrote: | The term to google is "durable water repellent" (DWR). In | sport shops you can buy sprays or washing liquids to treat | the jackets. | | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durable_water_repellent | | Also note each jacket has a different thickness of the | gore-tex layer which conditions how many hours of rain it | can withstand. | cobalt wrote: | dwr != gore-tex wash. DWR is the cheaper/non-permanent | waterproofing solution (likely containing PTFE) to add | waterproofing to an otherwise non-waterproof jacket (or | to make the outer layer waterproof) | loeg wrote: | Yeah. Nikwax is a big brand. | | You can also get "Shakedry" Gore-tex products, which | don't have an outer layer needing DWR treatments at all. | DenisM wrote: | Wow, I had no idea the US military is that well equipped. | Somehow I always thought the military have to tough it out | while the civilians get all the fancy outdoor tech. | | You wouldn't happen to have the official Marines Goretex | washing manual handy, would you? | [deleted] | UncleOxidant wrote: | I don't see much Gore-Tex(tm) stuff around anymore. I was | shopping for some rain gear and I don't think it came up. Are | there better materials now or is it just too expensive? | PierceJoy wrote: | It's ubiquitous in the mountain sports community. There are | some alternatives these days, but gore is still the most | popular by far. | jakub_g wrote: | In France at least, in sports outdoors shops, pretty much all | high-end jackets and mountain shoes have gore-tex. | | Some Salomon ones might have their own custom ~equivalent | tech though, probably easier and cheaper to make new products | as they control the whole process, no need for licensing & | testing by the Gore-Tex company. | aidenn0 wrote: | I think the patent expired, so there are knock offs now. | pyrophane wrote: | Keep in mind that with Gore-TEX you still have to sacrifice a lot | of breathe-ability. If you don't need something to be waterproof, | you may be happier with a non-waterproof alternative. I've found | that to be particularly true of shoes. | williamscales wrote: | The Gore-TEX membrane in the shoe also tends to break down | quite quickly. Think on the order of months if worn daily. | kabes wrote: | I used to have lot of gore-tex clothes, but recently got some | 'Dermizax' fabric stuff and these are a big improvement in my | experience. | sudosysgen wrote: | It's a nice material, but recently nanospun fabrics like | neoshell, ascentshell and futurelight have come out and I | personally find they work much much better | aeontech wrote: | Any particular brands you recommend? | | Is this something worthwhile for everyday wear, or this is | mainly for outdoor sports enthusiasts? | watersb wrote: | I purchased a North Face jacket at their factory store in | Berkeley, mid-1990s, the Gore Tex "Mountain Light" and a | fleece "Denali" inner jacket. | | It fit me really well, for a 30-year anniversary I decided to | get a new one last week. They still make the same design. | | The new one uses their nano-spun FutureLight fabric, rather | than a three-layer nylon(?)/GoreTex sandwich. | | It's much more soft, like a woven fabric rather than plastic | hard shell, and it seems to be much less weight. I really | like it. | | I got to try out Marmot's take on next-gen shell technology a | couple of years ago. Half the weight of my 20th century | jacket, very effective. The particular jacket I tried didn't | fit me as well as the Mountain Light, but I suspect that most | people would prefer Marmot's version: more simple, | lightweight, everyday tech. | | Some things were great 30 years ago; the fleece Denali is | essentially the same. The outer layer is _much_ improved. | | (And I noticed that the zippers are way better, overall. I | bet there's been decades of improvement in plastics (sorry, | "polycarbonate") engineering.) | whateveracct wrote: | I love my goretex converse high tops | weinzierl wrote: | It's pretty popular in Germany and the name and logo is often | found on outdoor clothing. I always wondered if the name is the | same in English speaking countries, or if it's different because | of its negative connotations. | | Apparently it's just a not too uncommon family name (Al Gore | comes to mind) and also used as brand name in English speaking | countries. People get so upset about Toot and Coq and Gimp, but | Gore seems totally OK. As a second language learner, no matter | how long you learn, you will never know what's in a native | speakers head. | luqtas wrote: | actually is really sweet to re-use unpleasant words and turn | them into something like; gimp... come on, it is FOSS a epic!:D | sswezey wrote: | It's quite popular in the US as well, marketed as Gore-TEX. | blacksmith_tb wrote: | Popular, but also reputed to lean on manufacturers to use its | waterproof fabrics and no others, or else: | | https://gearinstitute.com/ftc-investigates-gore-tex- | business... | | https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/insane-membrane/ | copperx wrote: | But is it pronounced GORE-teks or gore-TEK? | tasty_freeze wrote: | I'm unsure if you are making a joke about the typesetting | system, but here is a straight answer: it is always | pronounced like it rhymes with "cortex". | soperj wrote: | I think they're asking which syllable gets the emphasis. | m-p-3 wrote: | It's gore-tex as in textile. | datavirtue wrote: | The company has a very interesting organizational model. One | I have seen in other employee owned companies where the | supervisors and managers are chosen by the team (workers). | [deleted] | askvictor wrote: | Very popular in Australia too; 10-20 years ago it was the | only brand for serious outdoor enthusiasts, but now there's a | lot of competition | niccl wrote: | For a while in Wellington NZ you'd see people walking around | with Jackets saying 'Gore Techs' on the back. They were special | effects people from Weta Workshops working on the Lord of the | Rings films | manojlds wrote: | I usually see it as GTX | CharlesW wrote: | > _People get so upset about Toot and Coq and Gimp, but Gore | seems totally OK._ | | For me (a native American English speaker) the context matters. | When used in a name or as part of a longer name (e.g. Gore- | TEX), it's totally okay. Actual gore can be upsetting, but the | word itself is commonly used in content warnings and guides. | | "Gimp" is different than "Coq" or "Cox" (a popular cable | provider in the U.S.) in that it's considered offensive to the | disabled (if the person saying it is not disabled), where | homonyms for naughty bits are generally not taken super- | seriously. | Swizec wrote: | > gimp is considered offensive to the disabled | | TIL! I always thought it was offensive because of its use in | bdsm. | zaps wrote: | Can never not think of this whenever I hear "Gore-TEX" | | https://youtu.be/lt6KRKHpKhY | pqdbr wrote: | Came here looking exactly for this. Thanks. | aynyc wrote: | Just a side note, getting Gore-tex labeled product also means you | get warranty from Gore-Tex, kinda like Patagonia label. My old | ski jacket (Marmot) has de-laminated zipper that Marmot refused | warranty on. I contacted Gore-Tex, they took the jacket in and | send me a newer model of the same jacket. | samwillis wrote: | The article doesn't mention (other than a brief nod to the brand) | the other massive use of PTFE, none sticks surfaces originally | under the Teflon brand, most commonly found on cookware. It truly | is a "magic" material. | | Teflon and other PTFE based none stick surfaces are now really | quite controversial due to the toxic gasses they can give off of | you heat them too high. And the manufacturing processes is | potentially linked to a higher risk of cancer for workers. | | The industry is now moving away from PTFE to other materials for | none stick surfaces, however although they proclaim these are | "safe", they have been studied far less. I believe some evidence | is indicative of them also having serious issues. | Overtonwindow wrote: | Actually, Teflon on pans and cooking. Where is quite bad. It | flakes off quite easily and you just ingest it. Go with | ceramic, it's much better for you. | | This is just one search result, there are many This is just one | search result, there are many: | https://www.foxnews.com/health/non-stick-pans-could-release-... | ThePowerOfFuet wrote: | Your links would probably be taken more seriously here if | they weren't to foxnews.com. | | Personally I didn't even click on it just because of that, | which is a shame because you made me interested up until | then. | jiggawatts wrote: | Teflon is harmless if ingested. The whole point of it is | that it is chemically inert. | IsTom wrote: | Not saying that teflon is bad when ingested, but asbestos | and glass are also chemically inert and it doesn't make | them ok to ingest. | pitaj wrote: | Silicates like glass and asbestos are hard and cause | physical damage, but PTFE is a soft polymer. | fire wrote: | Yeah, Adam Ragusea has a decent video[0] covering PFAS coating | safety and production concerns; I hadn't realized how bad the | factory side of things were prior to this - I only knew that | overheating a teflon coated pan will destroy the coating, | release toxic gas, and... kill any pet birds in your apartment | :( | | 0: https://youtu.be/vZ1KmVmpC8o | baxtr wrote: | PFTE is different from PFAS. | fire wrote: | my cliff notes for teflon non-stick: | | * Don't use high heat, ever; you will destroy the coating and | release toxic gas | | * Don't leave the pan to get too hot over medium/low heat | either; if a teflon pan ever smokes, you have officially | fucked up. | | * Don't use hard/sharp utensils against the pan; you will | scrape off the coating | | * Don't clean the pan with abrasive scrubbers; you will | scrape off the coating | | * Do use soft plastic, silicone, or wood utensils; these | shouldn't damage the coating | | * Do wipe the pan after use, while the remnants of cooking | are still hot ( honestly this is just a general tip; I always | wipe out my carbon steel pan after use as well ) | | * Do use a soft cloth or sponge and warm / hot water to clean | the pan when hand washing; just like seasoned pans, you | shouldn't need to clean them with actual soap all that often, | but a light once over every so often will not hurt at all and | helps mitigate dust/general grime. | | * Do soak the pan if you have somehow managed to carbonize | food onto the pan; attempting to pry off stuck burned food | can pull off parts of the coating. | | Personally though I'd recommend a stainless or carbon steel ( | cast iron if you don't mind the weight ) and seasoning it, or | basically anything with a ceramic coating ( all cliff notes | apply to ceramic as well, but due to general coating damage | concerns rather than ptfe's production of toxic gas and | generation of microplastic granules ) | WirelessGigabit wrote: | As someone who lives in SoCal I'm astonished by the amount of | shoes sold here which are GTX. I always think they don't breathe | as good as just normal shoes. Thoughts? | gorbypark wrote: | Anecdotally, they definitely don't breath as well as shoes | without, which is to be expected give n the properties of gore- | tex. Since Gore-Tex needs to be kept clean and washed | regularity, my theory is the shoes will perform well in a | lab/testing but in the real world will get dirty and "plugged" | up pretty quick. Shoes are gonna see a ton of dirt compared to | a jacket. I avoid Gore-Tex foot wear unless it's for a winter | mountaineering and waterproofness is essential. | simlan wrote: | Yep using that material makes the breathability suffer. No | comparison to other water restiant materials which are worse. | If I were in your region I would not buy water restiant shoes | to begin with. | loeg wrote: | Yeah, you don't need GoreTex stuff in SoCal. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-11-25 23:00 UTC)