[HN Gopher] Paredit 25 released, after 8 years
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Paredit 25 released, after 8 years
Author : salutis
Score : 181 points
Date : 2022-11-26 11:57 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (paredit.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (paredit.org)
| billfruit wrote:
| Anyone with experience of both paredit and smartparens, which
| would you recommend?
| philjackson wrote:
| I can't live without smartparens-strict-mode - how do people
| edit lisp without it?!
| pbiggar wrote:
| Paredit is so good - completely changes how you edit. It was also
| the primary influence for making the Darklang editor a structured
| editor, though I confess it is not yet as good as paredit.
| tym0 wrote:
| Do people have any tips on getting started with paredit in vim?
| I'm pretty happy with Parinfer but it sometimes makes working
| with other people's code painful...
| susam wrote:
| I have a small section dedicated to Paredit in my _Lisp in Vim_
| post: https://susam.net/blog/lisp-in-vim.html
|
| Direct link to the Paredit section:
| https://susam.net/blog/lisp-in-vim.html#get-started-with-par...
|
| This section introduces only the most basic features like
| electric returns, regathering, slurping, barfing, etc. For a
| complete documentation of all the features, it is worth
| entering :help paredit-keys directly in Vim. The help manual is
| not too long. Takes about 30 to 40 minutes to read through it
| and try some of the commands that look interesting.
| perihelions wrote:
| Is it worth trying to make a serious effort with things like
| paredit, if you're already happy with default Emacs lisp modes? I
| feel like they're already overpowered.
|
| When I last tried this, I felt like I was struggling against the
| mode's understanding of my syntax, more than it was assisting me.
| I didn't figure out how to "think" in its language. I want to
| know if I'm missing out on something wonderful, or if it's more
| of a "just another tool, don't worry about it".
| Barrin92 wrote:
| I would consider myself a fairly unserious paredit user and I
| still think it's immensely useful. The things I use most of the
| time are really just barf, slurp and splice yet it makes so
| much more sense to me now to think of S-expressions
| structurally rather than just editing text.
|
| Both the advantage and disadvantage of lisp are its lack of
| structure and paredit forcing you to keep your code intact
| really prevents a ton of issues just by having it on.
| lgas wrote:
| I think it is worth it. Mastering it was one of the first times
| I felt like I had gained a programming power up. It's
| definitely a little awkward at first but if you keep at it,
| eventually the switch will flip and you'll wonder how you
| could've lived without it.
| Athas wrote:
| Paredit is so good that even after taking a break from Lisp for
| years, as soon as I opened up an .el file to do some Emacs
| customisation, the muscle memory was fully intact and I was
| able to perform structural edits without even thinking about
| which keys I pressed. I try not to write too much Lisp these
| days, because I inevitably become depressed at how clumsy it is
| to manipulate syntax in the languages I use more commonly.
| ahmedalsudani wrote:
| Paredit made a massive difference when I was writing Lisp. It
| does take some getting used to, but pretty sure it was a net
| positive after a week of use.
|
| I actually started enabling it when writing other languages
| (Python/C++) to see if it could do its magic there.
| the-lazy-guy wrote:
| You probably know that, but there is smartparens mode which
| does similar magic to non-lisp languages:
| https://github.com/Fuco1/smartparens
| reikonomusha wrote:
| Paredit changed the way I write Common Lisp, and I personally
| consider it a sort of killer feature of developer experience.
| Combined with canonical indentation of Lisp code (where every
| line can be indented in essentially just a single correct way,
| determined automatically by the editor), editing Lisp code
| actually becomes one of the most pleasurable of activities in
| programming. When you go back to editing Python, JavaScript, or C
| --even with a slick IDE--it just feels like a DX regression.
| slyrus wrote:
| org mode with paredit for the lisp source blocks is a life
| changer! but it does highlight the deficiencies of other
| languages (and their editors) when one has to write/edit R,
| python, etc... Then again, being able to do so in the same file
| is a major win.
| llanowarelves wrote:
| What are you using for the indentation?
|
| Does Emacs just do it automatically?
|
| I was looking for the equivalent of Prettier for Lisp/Scheme
| and didnt really find anything.
| DEFEC8ED wrote:
| In general, the answer is yes, but it depends on the major
| mode providing the functions necessary for code formatting.
| I'm not exactly sure what this looks like for Lisps, but I'd
| guess most of these functions are provided by SMIE (https://w
| ww.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/SM...).
|
| There are built in minor modes such as electric-indent-mode
| that indent automatically, but I personally use aggressive-
| indent-mode.
| elwell wrote:
| Emacs aggressive-indent-mode
| reikonomusha wrote:
| Emacs (and SLIME) do it automatically. I have some very, very
| light customization to change indentation for a couple cases
| (aligning keyword arguments, indenting MAKE-INSTANCE, etc).
| bmitc wrote:
| Is there a particular tutorial or method you followed to be
| fluent with Paredit. I like Lisp/Scheme but have never adopted
| any of the tools like Paredit or Parinfer but would be
| interested in doing so.
| capableweb wrote:
| Seeing as you mix Lisp and Scheme together, I'm guessing
| you're not aiming for a specific language? If so, Calva (VS
| Code plugin for Clojure) has a visual guide for how to use
| Paredit via Calva: https://calva.io/paredit/
|
| Even if you don't use VS Code/Clojure specifically, the
| "Action" names should be the same or similar with other
| Paredit extensions, so you can become familiar.
|
| Best advise I have for learning Paredit is doing the same as
| you would if you were to learn Vim: Every time you think "How
| can I do X faster?" look up the way to do it and write it
| down on a cheatsheet. After a couple of times it'll become
| muscle memory.
| bmitc wrote:
| Thanks! I'll take a look at the Calva tutorial. I'm
| currently not really all in on a Lisp/Scheme, as you
| deduced, but Racket is my usual Lisp/Scheme goto. But I'm
| open to using Clojure to learn.
| emmelaich wrote:
| A revelation for me was doing a Racket course and seeing the
| style with the ending parens all on one line. Made so much more
| sense than matching up with the opening paren by indentation.
|
| One of the first lisps I used let you use a super-closing ]
| instead of umpteen ))).
|
| That sort of made sense to me too.
| bongobingo1 wrote:
| Am I stupid or does this not say what it does anywhere on the
| site or repo.
|
| E: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ParEdit
| qorrect wrote:
| It's on the first line there _" ParEdit (paredit.el) is a minor
| mode for performing structured editing of S-expression data.
| The typical example of this would be Lisp or Scheme source
| code."_ You'd have to known emacs nomenclature ( minor-mode )
| and Lispy words ( S-expression )
| nulbyte wrote:
| I assume E: is for edit. I think GP was pointing out that the
| ParEdit website doesn't offer much in the way of explanation,
| and later found another site that did.
| srcreigh wrote:
| If you click paredit.el, there's prose explanation in the
| comments.
| iainctduncan wrote:
| Can anyone tell me if it's as helpful for Scheme? Thx!
| salutis wrote:
| Also, Paredit now has a public website and repository.
| agumonkey wrote:
| back in the days, all there was was
| http://pub.gajendra.net/src/paredit-refcard.pdf
| tsuru wrote:
| Congrats! And thank you! This changed my lisp experience and my
| wishlist for interacting with non-s-exp code when I found it
| years ago.
| capableweb wrote:
| Same here. After getting used to the "automatic" way of
| editing and writing s-expressions, I can't believe something
| similar doesn't exists for the C-like code most people write
| today, but then I remember how much syntax all those
| languages really contain. Rust is like a trivia answer for
| "How much syntax could you possibly put into one language?".
| bhrgunatha wrote:
| Here's hoping that type of structured movement and editing
| will spread much wider now tree-sitter is merged into emacs
| master. Already quite a few parsers/grammars available for
| tree sitter:
|
| https://tree-sitter.github.io/tree-sitter/#available-
| parsers
| Myrmornis wrote:
| Basic paredit operations work surprisingly well on C-like
| languages like Python. Try it! I think it does ok on Rust
| too. I'm thinking mainly of paredit-kill and navigating
| paired delimiters. A long time ago I collected together
| some tweaks for using it with Python etc here:
|
| https://github.com/dandavison/paredit-c
| mickeyp wrote:
| Ha. I, too, hacked paredit to work with Python about a
| decade ago for the same reasons as you. And yes, it does
| work better than you'd think.
| Myrmornis wrote:
| Hi Mickey, ah no -- you've done WAY more than me in this
| area! I had been meaning to try your combobulate package.
|
| FWIW: after 20 years of Emacs I personally switched to
| VSCode a couple of years ago because I felt that in Emacs
| I was missing out on the LSP experience that VSCode
| provided in Rust, Typescript, Scala, etc. (I was using
| Eglot). In any case, there's a very nice Emacs emulation
| mode in VSCode
|
| https://github.com/whitphx/vscode-emacs-mcx
|
| which includes some paredit functionality courtesy of
|
| https://robert.kra.hn/past-projects/paredit-js.html
|
| and I'm working on porting my favorite paredit function,
| paredit-kill. Unfortunately that's the one where the
| paredit author left this comment in the code:
| ;;; Please do not try to understand this code unless you
| have a VERY ;;; good reason to do so. I gave up
| trying to figure it out well ;;; enough to explain
| it, long ago.
| tuukkah wrote:
| > _C-like languages like Python_
|
| I can see Paredit working somehow with the curly brace
| blocks of C, but how does it handle the significant
| whitespace of Python? Are indent and dedent handled as
| tokens?
| Myrmornis wrote:
| No, I've never tried to make it do that. So in Python
| paredit-kill will not kill a function definition, whereas
| it would in a language that uses braces for function
| bodies.
| capableweb wrote:
| Does it automatically balances all the
| parenthesis/brackets/other characters? I think that's
| what I'm missing the most.
| Myrmornis wrote:
| Yep.
| georgeoliver wrote:
| What do people think about paredit vs. just using the regular
| sexp editing commands (https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/
| html_node/emacs/Pa...)? Especially when you rebind those to
| easier key combos.
|
| Honestly I feel like those are enough for 90% of what I'm doing,
| and for now learning Paredit/infer is low on the priority list.
| Is it worth moving it up?
| nerdponx wrote:
| I use (Neo)Vim which only has minimal Lisp support built in. I
| started using Parinfer and it made a huge positive impact on my
| experience writing Lisp. It would probably be less impactful if
| I already had a good workflow and keyboard shortcuts that I
| liked.
|
| But Parinfer is particularly nice in that it makes not just
| editing easy, but also refactoring, which historically was one
| of my big annoyances with s-expressions.
|
| Maybe Paredit has features for that too, but I didn't use it
| (the Vim port) long enough to learn its ins and outs.
| Jach wrote:
| I'm a vim user and generally dislike tools typing for me at
| the same time that I'm typing. I've gotten some value from
| https://github.com/tpope/vim-sexp-mappings-for-regular-
| peopl... though when writing Lisp.
| mcbuilder wrote:
| I've never had so much fun slurping and barfing as I have with
| paredit.
| kehrin wrote:
| I've tried to switch to Paredit (from Evil) but had trouble. Does
| anyone have a solid resource for learning?
| casion wrote:
| Switch? They're not mutually exclusive.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Instead of paredit, I use adjust-parens with Evil and bind <<
| and >> to lisp-indent-adjust-parens and lisp-dedent-adjust-
| parens.
| nanna wrote:
| It took me a few attempts. What eventually worked was just
| getting used to one major feature of it, barfing and slurping,
| and after that it all clicked.
| Xeoncross wrote:
| Here I am trying to figure out who Paredit is and what he did
| that so bad he was was sentenced for over eight years at 17.
| agumonkey wrote:
| thanks to the credits I got to learn about interlisp s-edit
|
| here's a demo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qsmF8HHskg
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