[HN Gopher] Could Dissolvable Cranberry Film Replace Plastic Pac... ___________________________________________________________________ Could Dissolvable Cranberry Film Replace Plastic Packaging Someday? Author : ohjeez Score : 57 points Date : 2022-11-26 17:33 UTC (1 days ago) (HTM) web link (modernfarmer.com) (TXT) w3m dump (modernfarmer.com) | flybrand wrote: | Sure, it 'could' - anything is possible! | | > Of all the ideas presented, creating a fibrous film that is | edible, no-waste, anti-microbial and water soluble was the one | that took off, and Zhao published her first paper on the subject | 15 years ago. Since then, she's continued to tweak and refine the | formulation. | | This industry is driven by ROI and waste reduction. If this | worked, it would've worked long ago. | macintux wrote: | Of the many things capitalism excels at, pricing in | externalities is not one of them. | | Find a more ecological alternative and then tax the hell out of | the current methods. | jasonhansel wrote: | I'm just going to assume Betteridge's Law of Headlines applies: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines | jmoak3 wrote: | Meta comment, but for any article saying: "Could ...... ?" | | 95% of the time, the answer is no | nkozyra wrote: | Fully encapsulated by Betteridge's law. | vore wrote: | This is such a Hacker News meme comment that never adds | anything of value every time it gets posted. | nkozyra wrote: | Where is the meme? -\\_(tsu)_/- | pepperidgeFarm wrote: | Fully encapsulated by Pepperidge's Farm. | lxe wrote: | This is nice, but we should avoid strictly focusing on the | environmentally-specific properties of the product, but rather on | whether the manufacturing process is scalable and cheap enough, | and whether the product's other properties, like strength and | food safety are worth the trade-off. Especially when starting the | article with "But first, the industry needs to get on board." | | It's like that solar road idea: 1000x more expensive, 100x more | complex, and requires constant maintenance. | 9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: | From the article: "But as folks are still interested in | takeout, some experts think there's a timely opportunity to | update food storage options. Zhao says that's why industry and | researchers should work closely together. | | "There's not a perfect product yet. How can we reduce the cost? | How can the formulations and technology more easily scale up | through companies?" says Zhao." | nonrandomstring wrote: | I wanted to see if Willie Wonka already had a patent on it, and | found this headline [1]. Now we need to worry whether it will be | made by slave Oompa Loompa labour. | | [1] https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable- | business/2014/oct/21... | WheelsAtLarge wrote: | No time soon... Plastics are mostly a by product of petroleum | refining so it's hard to beat the economic factors. And the | manufacturing machines have been in use for so long that they are | completely paid for so adding one more plastic whatever is | relatively cheap compared to any new gizmo. | | At this point the only way to stop plastic products is to | subsidize a replacement to the point of making it cheaper than | plastic or to make it illegal. Both of which are unlikely to | happen now. | | When looking at plastic replacements, we need to look at the | economics as well as the replacement. | seer wrote: | Well yeah they are "cheap" to produce but expensive to clean up | and dispose of. As long as governments "subsidize" plastics by | cleaning after them themselves rather than forcing | manufacturers to pay for it, you will have straws and plastic | trash on the streets/parks/rivers/oceans. | | The funny thing is that we are _already_ paying for it with all | the trash handling infrastructure - mostly government payed and | supported by taxes around the world. | | The money is there - imagine paying less for trash, but a bit | more for the product - still the same amount of money spent. | But now the manufacturer has the incentive to use those new | films and _not_ pay for its disposal. As economies of scale | kick in, we can have clean environment and pay less for it all | (less trash infra). | | I just hope people (governments) realize this in my lifetime... | rishflab wrote: | Why don't we just burn plastic for energy. We burn hydrocarbons | for energy anyway, why not substitute some coal for plastic | waste. | | Not an expert on this matter but I am pretty sure most | hydrocarbons can be burnt pretty cleanly in the right conditions. | tireonfire wrote: | That's what Japan does. I was just over there, you have to sort | all your trash. Burnable or not burnable. | chairhairair wrote: | The cost of sorting has to then be factored in (because | plastics are often not perfect hydrocarbons, they contain a | variety of elements depending on bulk composition and | additives). And, even perfectly sorted plastics will not burn | as cleanly as freshly refined hydrocarbons, so you need to | factor that cost in as well. | | And for what benefit? Plastics in a land fill are a form of | carbon sequestration if the alternative is burning them or | fresh hydrocarbons. | | IMO the value in replacing plastic use has very little to do | with energy/CO2. It's more related to other | health/environmental effects (microplastics, etc). | andrewstuart wrote: | The solution to the plastic crisis to stop making the plastic. | | Right now, we are in a kitchen and all the drains are blocked and | the plastic taps are on full blast and we are doing our best to | stop it by mopping. | jtbayly wrote: | If you want people to stop making plastic, you need to come up | with another material that will work for the various things | plastic is used for. Hence this article. | dhosek wrote: | It's worth noting also that it's not really the consumer | plastic waste that's the big problem. The Atlantic garbage | barge in the 1970s made people panicked about a lack of | landfill capacity, but the truth of the barge was more a | political dispute more than anything else and we have the | ability to keep handling solid waste for ages (composting is | still important in that it will reduce methane emissions from | landfills, but it's not important in terms of reducing | landfill use). | | The bigger issue is that small pieces of plastic from the | manufacturing process end up as environmental waste. I did | some volunteer cleanup a dozen years ago near Ballona Creek | and the amount of tiny pieces (bean-sized and smaller) of | plastic and styrofoam along the creek was just mind-blowing. | If you find yourself near any plastic manufacturing facility, | you'll see lots of tiny bits of plastic all over the place. | Sawdust and metal shavings get dispersed similarly, but they | tend to have less of an environmental impact. | andrewstuart wrote: | Disagree. | | Firstly, lets clarify. I don't mean "stop making plastic | entirely", that would be impractical and silly. | | What we have not done as a society is make any effort at all | to place a limit on how much plastic is created. | | We likely have no mechanisms at all for knowing who makes | plastics, the quantity they make, the purpose they are made | for and who buys them. | | Step one is to somehow get limits in place on the amount the | is created. | | Right now, plastic production is an absolute free for all. | You could set up "The Infinity Plastic" company tomorrow and | spew out so much plastic that it would completely cover the | entire earth and that would break no law at all, no one would | know or notice. | | It stupid that as a society we are so obsessed with dealing | with the output without any effort to control the input. | dools wrote: | Corn starch is already a really good alternative, we use it | in our house for bin liners, I wonder why it's not more | popular as food packaging. Perhaps it has issues with | durability over the time periods for which shelf storage is | required. | WheelsAtLarge wrote: | Corn starch sounds good put growing corn is energy | intensive. Right now, it takes a great deal of carbon based | fuels to grow it. Plus every ear of corn that's grown for a | plastic replacement is one less that's grow for food. It's | an expensive trade off. Re-use and no-use of plastic is | probably the best way to deal with plastic trash. | badrabbit wrote: | Pardon the ignorance but aside from cost, what is wrong with | using glass? Why not just make a ton of glass from cheap sand and | scale/automate it to make it cheaper? | zdragnar wrote: | To make glass resistant to shattering from jostling in | shipping, it needs to be thicker than the equivalent sturdiness | from plastic. That means excess weight and volume, making | transportation more energy-intensive. | | Plastic is also easier to mold into a variety of shapes, so you | get conveniently stackable containers and lids without much | extra cost (the same shapes introduce stress points in the | glass where fractures could occur). | | Plastic can also be made flexible, i.e. as shrinkwrap (which | this product would replace in some cases). You aren't going to | wrap vulnerable fruit and veg (like english cucumbers) in glass | wrap. | | Glass can be easier to recycle, but again you're fighting | volume and mass in transportation as well as waste management. | It's great for things like liquids if you have businesses | willing to re-use them, but they also have to expend the extra | energy to properly clean and sanitize them before they can be | reused. | | The last time I bought a soda from a company that would take | back glass bottles and reuse them, the flavor could only be | described as "soap". I never again wondered why every other | company sold disposable aluminum and plastic after that. | 14 wrote: | Glass is heavy and would increase the carbon footprint of some | items. | vxNsr wrote: | It's actually a big problem, we're running low on sand that's | good for making glass, you need sea sand for glass, desert sand | is no good, it's the wrong shape. Nefarious actors are actually | stealing beach sand in the dead of night. It's a problem. | morepork wrote: | Glass is incredible carbon intensive to make, and takes | practically forever to break down. It's also fragile. | hanniabu wrote: | Doesn't matter if it takes forever to break down, glass is | inert and nontoxic | oyashirochama wrote: | Glass literally becomes sand after not too long in the | environment. It's energy intensive but so is aluminum | processing from bauxite and several levels above it. Both are | really good at reusability though, also on that front | aluminum does just as good at not breaking down. | macintux wrote: | And I don't know the economics for making it not so, but it's | quite dangerous when it breaks. Not something I want around | food (barring glassware that's not particularly fragile). | notacop31337 wrote: | A generally applicable rule of thumb to apply is as soon as you | need to generate heat, you're spending a lot of energy on the | process, which is far more damaging and requiring of an | overhaul than packaging. | csande17 wrote: | Plastic packaging protects food from moisture and dirt. If you | make the packaging out of a water-soluble material and then eat | it, surely that's almost completely useless? Like, now you need | some kind of additional outer wrapper to stop your edible | packaging from getting contaminated. | | The article mentions muffin liners as an alternative use case, | but those are usually made of thin paper and are already | compostable. | irjustin wrote: | water-soluable packaging would be impossible in high humidity | environments. | jimmiebtlr wrote: | Edible packaging would also be biodegradable and a big plus, | agreed that trying to eat it would pretty much defeat the | purpose. | | Could make some interesting food items with an edible film | though. | WirelessGigabit wrote: | Edible doesn't make sense, because then we need a removeable | layer around it to protect the edible part. | csande17 wrote: | I think the parent comment is suggesting using it as a food | ingredient, not as packaging. Like dumplings, or like how | people make fancy desserts with edible gold leaf. | 9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: | The article describes how this edible part is also anti- | microbial, if it were to be consumed instead of just thrown | in a composter. | morepork wrote: | I think the idea is that it becomes like fruit and vegetables. | You purchase them unwrapped, wash them, and eat them. This | would have implications on the supply chain of course to try | and keep these items clean. | | It could also replace individually wrapped items, such as in a | box of cereal bars the individual bars wouldn't need plastic | wrap. | 9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: | From the article: "The cranberry film can work as a | replacement for film plastic, protecting fruits and | vegetables with delicate skins, such as English cucumbers." | WirelessGigabit wrote: | My protein bars need individual wrap. I am not putting them | 'naked' inside of my hiking backpack. | | Not to mention how nasty the last one is when it takes you 2 | months to finish a box... All of them exposed to air? Thanks | but no thanks. | seer wrote: | But would you put an apple "naked"? A cucumber? A tomato? | | At least for me - when I hike I usually have a box and put | all of those items there "raw" - the box protects them from | mechanical forces but I don't need to individually wrap my | apples inside that box. Having other edible things have | such an edible covering would be amazing actually. | King-Aaron wrote: | Fruits and vegetables tend to have their own inbuilt | wrapping that protects them from dirt, moisture, etc. | Whereas an oat bar or protein bar is often quite porous | and would get impregnated with dirt and stuff very | quickly. It's an absurd comparison to make. | Renaud wrote: | That's what tin boxes are for. They keep their content | fresh and protect it. | morepork wrote: | The bars wouldn't be exposed to air, that's what edible | wraps like what is described in the article are for. | | For backpacks and the like you will need something else to | keep it clean, same as you would for an apple. May I | present to you the lunch box, already used by 100s of | millions. | gen220 wrote: | FWIW, if you're curious about the insights from somebody | who's crusty enough to make their own protein bars :) | | If you care about avoiding "processed foods" in other | domains and are consuming shrink-wrapped bars with a shelf | life of 2+ months: here be dragons! | | I store ours in a glass container the refrigerator, where | they're individually wrapped in butcher paper. I'd consider | them good outside of the fridge (in the paper) for 32 | hours, inside the fridge for a week or two. Making a batch | takes about 10 minutes + overnight refrigeration, and the | recipe is trivial to scale-up/down in size. | | They're certainly not as convenient or robust as shrink- | wrapped lara bars, but we're not frequently in situations | where the diff disappoints, ymmv. | amluto wrote: | Muffin liners actually make more sense to me. It's often hard | to get a muffin liner off of the muffin without losing a lot of | muffin. An edible liner that has a good texture might have some | actual value. | sockaddr wrote: | Or you could just sit and try to scrape the residual muffin | off with your teeth getting little crumbs all over you and | sticky crap all over your fingers like a normal person. Don't | try to play god with your edible wrapper technology. This is | the way it's meant to be. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-11-28 05:00 UTC)