[HN Gopher] Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher d... ___________________________________________________________________ Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids Author : miduil Score : 93 points Date : 2022-12-01 20:21 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.jacionline.org) (TXT) w3m dump (www.jacionline.org) | Konohamaru wrote: | What is the solution? (Don't have the focus to read, understand, | and analyze the scientific paper atm.) | anon291 wrote: | Realistically, rinse aid is hardly necessary. | ketralnis wrote: | The trouble isn't the solution so much as the precipitate | sramsay wrote: | The real news here is that there is such a thing as a "gut-on-a- | chip." | wobbly_bush wrote: | Is my reading of the summary correct that it is only (or mainly?) | talking about rinse aid and not about the detergent? | ars wrote: | Yah, it seemed the same to me. | | I don't use rinse aid, never have, you don't actually need it, | you can just let the dishes air dry for slightly longer. | | If you have hard water then soften it, rather than use a rinse | aid. | matthewdgreen wrote: | It is talking about professional dishwashers like the ones | used in restaurants. So if you dine out on a regular basis | you're probably getting exposed to this stuff even if you | don't use it at home. | | PS I have no chemical expertise, but the article singles out | alcohol ethoxylates as the cause of this damage. And while I | don't use rinse aid in my home dishwasher, my Cascade | dishwasher pods list "Isotridecanol Ethoxylated" as an | ingredient, which may be one of these substances? At least | this gets rinsed off, though I doubt it gets rinsed | completely. | Bud wrote: | quercusa wrote: | If I remember chem class correctly, -nol indicates an | alcohol (ethanol, methanol...) | kwhitefoot wrote: | Many years ago I worked as a skivvy in a hotel kitchen. We | never used any detergent for the crockery, it just used | extremely hot water. The dishes seemed very clean and they | dried very rapidly. | SoftTalker wrote: | Yep. If the water is hot enough you don't need chemical | detergent or sanitizer. But we're talking about water | that is almost boiling -- you'd only find dishwashers | that hot in a commercial kitchen. | giraffe_lady wrote: | How... many... years ago? When I started cooking | professionally in the 80s three-stage hand wash had | already been required by health codes everywhere for | decades. I've seen all kinds of shit but every kitchen at | least _has_ the setup and chemicals for that for health | inspections if nothing else. In practice even the | sketchiest restaurants will have quats even if they only | fill it once a day. | SoftTalker wrote: | GP is talking about a commercial dishwasher. You can't | hand wash hot enough -- you'd get serious burns. So | anything you hand wash needs the three-stage wash, rinse, | sanitize process with detergent and chemical sanitizer. | jandrese wrote: | If the purpose of the substance is to make the dishes dry | faster it makes sense that it would not be fully rinsed off | at the end of the cycle. In theory you would hope that they | would evaporate off of the dishes, but that leads to air | quality issues, so all in all these rinse aids seem | problematic. | hammock wrote: | Rinse aid and detergent both have the same active, harmful | ingredient: sulfates aka AES aka surfactants. The difference is | that detergent gets rinsed off, while rinse aid IS the rinse | (vs plain non-aided water). | magila wrote: | I suffered from chronic diarrhea for years which I attributed to | Crohn's disease. This seemed obvious since diarrhea is a very | common symptom of Crohn's, but its onset had been several years | after I was diagnosed and prior to that I had tended more towards | the opposite problem (constipation). I was thus always suspicious | that the root cause lay elsewhere. After much experimenting I | found that if I ran my dishwasher through an extra rinse cycle | the diarrhea went away. | | I tried many different detergents but never found one which | didn't cause problems, so I've just continued to run an extra | cycle. My GI doctor didn't really believe me when I told him. I | wonder how many people are having their IBS/IBD symptoms | exasperated by detergent residue left on their dishes. | iLoveOncall wrote: | Wait, people were serious when they said we shouldn't eat Tide | Pods? | trebor wrote: | Ironically, the summary isn't as good as the "Key Messages" | section at the bottom: | | > * Professional dishwasher rinse aid causes cellular | cytotoxicity and directly impaired barrier integrity of gut | epithelial cells by damaging TJ and AJ expressions in daily | exposed concentrations. > * The underlying mechanisms of | epithelial barrier disruption in response to rinse aid were cell | death in 1:10,000 dilutions and epithelial barrier opening in | 1:40,000 dilutions. > * The alcohol ethoxylates, an ingredient of | the rinse aid that remains on washed dishware, caused the gut | epithelial inflammation and barrier damage. | | It appears to be the rinse aid when used in professional | dishwashers utilized in restaurants, etc, due to high | concentration of the rinse aid contaminating the "clean" dishes. | giraffe_lady wrote: | Yeah in industry they are often called sanitizers because the | purpose and mechanism are fundamentally different from the home | ones people are familiar with. Or as a common chef quip: "the | dishwasher is the guy running it, the machine is a sanitizer." | | They are notoriously bad at removing food residue, which must | be sprayed or scraped off before running. Anything more than | trace is cooked onto the dishes. They're really good at | removing thin layers of grease quickly, and sanitizing. Doesn't | surprise me at all that they don't do a final rinse; handling | stuff right out of them leaves a distinct feeling on your | fingers, like the opposite of bleach kinda. You have more | friction than you should until they fully dry, it's very | noticeable. | jasonhansel wrote: | Importantly, when they tested a household dishwasher, they | didn't find the same issues: | | > In contrast, the residual substances on the cups washed in a | household dishwasher with detergent B were not present at | sufficiently high concentrations to exert cytotoxicity and | impair the epithelial barrier function (see Fig E9). | JonathonW wrote: | Also, they've only tested one professional dishwasher and one | household dishwasher using one specific formulation of rinse | aid. | | There's enough here to indicate a need for further | investigation, but not enough data to come to any overall | conclusions about commercial or household dishwasher safety | in general. | hammock wrote: | If you use a rinse aid in your dishwasher I bet you'd find | harmful results. | | Home detergent does contain AES (sulfates) but it gets rinsed | pretty well. However if you use rinse aid, the rinse water | itself has surfactants (AES, more sulfates), which will | remain on the dishware- that's the whole point actually, so | the water beads off. | SoftTalker wrote: | The rinse aid prevents beading, actually. Beading is what | leaves the spots. | hammock wrote: | Yes I had it backwards. It's the old "add soap to water | to break the surface tension" kids science experiment: | https://youtu.be/ho0o7H6dXSU | joezydeco wrote: | One of the most popular brands in the US, Jet Dry, has the | ethoxylated alcohol mentioned in the article: | | http://www.rbnainfo.com/MSDS/CA/FINISH%20-%20JET- | DRY%20Rinse... | [deleted] | b20000 wrote: | So what does this mean for all of us who buy coffee at coffee | shops every morning? Will this cause serious problems long term | since we are consuming residues of their dishwasher chemicals? | One potential solution is to always get your coffee to go, but | that probably only partly solves the problem. | gadflyinyoureye wrote: | Oh I bet that is a frying pan fire thing. The cups are probably | endocrine disrupters too with a plastic lining. | hammock wrote: | Hot beverage cups are coated with polyethylene which is one | of the most inert polymers you can get. You could do much | worse. | hammock wrote: | What are you getting from a coffee shop that has been through a | dishwasher? The mug? | Karawebnetwork wrote: | There are a lot of things than can go wrong when you order from | a restaurant or coffee shop. There could be diseases, bacteria, | virus, chemicals or even contaminent such as glass parts or | insects. The answer to this question would be to only order | from places you trust - and even then, contamination can happen | quickly and in invisible ways. | lazide wrote: | As anyone who has worked the back of a kitchen can attest, | there are almost no actually trustworthy restaurants. | bbarnett wrote: | I've worked in several, and if you mean "infallible" OK, | but I can assure you the people I worked with gave a damn, | cared, and would never intentionally slack off, or do a | poor job, placing people at risk. | | Maybe you just worked with/for terrible people? | xeromal wrote: | One of the dirtiest, worst people I know is a sous chef | at Flemings. Take that for what you will. | doitLP wrote: | It's time to place all chemicals in the "unsafe until proven | safe" category. | fire wrote: | huh, I didn't know home and commercial rinse aids were any | different? | skrbjc wrote: | Based on the paper it seems to be primarily an issue with | dilution. They say home dishwashers dilute it to a rate of | around 1:80000, the commercials ones are around 1:1000 - | 1:10000. The problems they observed seem to happen in that | lower dilution range. | blackhaz wrote: | How to recognize an alcohol ethoxylate? | hammock wrote: | Anything that ends in "sulfate" on the ingredients label. Or | anything that is labeled "detergent" or "rinse aid." | awinter-py wrote: | wonder how the proliferation of small motors + robots will affect | the use of chemicals in applications like this | | better robotics tech can reduce chemical use by: | | 1. spot application of sponge in place of general application of | chemicals | | 2. more targeted application of chemicals (only when + where | needed) | | 3. replacing poison for pest / weed elimination with smart mobile | traps (have seen laser POCs for both bugs + weeds) | | 4. cleaning materials for recycling using targeted friction | instead of soap. separating oil and food scraps from drain water. | separating human waste from gray water (and selling the nitrates) | | even for something innocuous like brushing your teeth, a robot | can use advanced sensing to modify the dose of fluoride | | feels like lots of 'bits to atoms' projects here for someone who | enjoys garbage | blockwriter wrote: | It's endocrine awareness day on Hacker News | (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33816861) | jasonhansel wrote: | I don't think the OP proposes an endocrine-related mechanism | for this damage. | hokkos wrote: | I use white vinegar instead of a dedicated rinse aids. | boomchinolo78 wrote: | Oh wait....cue gluten-allergy | merth wrote: | I think I have gluten-sensitivity(cant confirm). I rarely eat | out. always order delivery, use plastic fork. I dont have a | dish washer. | jliptzin wrote: | What the hell is rinse aid anyway | hammock wrote: | It's just surfactants. Aka detergent. That doesn't get rinsed | off, it gets "rinsed on." It's function is to make water bead | off the glass so that water spots are not left | derbOac wrote: | Dishes also dry off faster as water beads off more. | ironmagma wrote: | Useless liquid you put in your modern dishwasher which doesn't | perform a proper drying to save energy. | jandrese wrote: | Residential version is marketed under the trademark "Jet Dry". | It's intended to prevent hard water spots on your dishes, but | most people don't care enough or don't have this problem so | it's not heavily used. | jasonhansel wrote: | It's a special liquid you put in a compartment in your | dishwasher to make it work better. | | I don't bother; I've tried it and haven't observed any effects. | xxpor wrote: | It really depends on if you have a dishwasher that relies on | evap for drying, or an explicit heating element. The latter | is becoming more rare as time goes on. | lotsofpulp wrote: | How would dishes dry then? Is there at least a fan | providing air flow? | xxpor wrote: | This is why rinse aid is critical, you have to minimize | the amount of water on the dishes. The extremely hot | water tends to heat up the dishes enough so they retain | enough heat to evaporate off the rest of the water. | Plastic stuff like cups tends to stay pretty wet since | they don't have the thermal capacity of metal or | porcelain. A big advantage with this design, other than | the energy savings, is that you don't have to worry about | putting plastic stuff on the bottom rack, since there's | no localized source of heat that can melt them. | RjQoLCOSwiIKfpm wrote: | Rinse aid is completely unneeded if you properly maintain and use | your dishwasher. | | I never use any, and my dishes are completely spotless. 30 years | old dishwasher, super hard water. | | Specifically, you should: | | - always fill the salt of the dishwasher's water softener once | it's empty. It cannot soften the water if it doesn't get cleaned | by the salt. If the water is not softened you will get spots. | EDIT: Apparently US folks often have dishwashers which don't | soften the water. Ugh. In Europe I haven't even heard that such a | thing exists! :| | | - configure the dishwasher to your water hardness. | | - do NOT use detergent which is advertised as "you won't need | salt". This is garbage for lazy people. It cannot properly | replace the water softener. Think about it for a moment: The | detergent is meant to fully dissolve during washing so you won't | have it on your dishes after the final water cycle. The only way | it could affect the softness of the water in the final cycle is | if it did NOT fully dissolve in time. So there are two factors to | be optimized which contradict - stay long enough to soften the | water, but not long enough to leave remainders on the dishes. It | will never work properly. | | - This is not related to rinse aid, but you should know it: Clean | the sieve regularly, at least every week. It will get ultra nasty | with gunk if you don't. If you have no time for cleaning it, buy | a second one, switch them once one is dirty and put it among the | dishes so the dishwasher washes it like a dish. | casion wrote: | Fill the salt? Configure for water hardness? | | I've never heard of either of these things before. Certainly | not things on my, relatively fancy, dishwasher. | quantified wrote: | US consumers are easier to sell to, perhaps. | teekert wrote: | I've never seen a dishwasher without this :) | | But I think most people here in the Netherlands never set it | up correctly and go for "all in 1" tabs. I never do, always | set it up correctly. I do feel I need rinse aid to not have | that nasty feel to the glasses. | RjQoLCOSwiIKfpm wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dishwasher_salt | | The water hardness setting determines how much the water | softener tries to soften the water. | | If the water isn't soft enough, it will leave spots on the | dishes. Hence people use "rinse aid", so the improperly | softened water would drip off before it leaves spots. | | If the water is properly softened it contains no calcium etc. | which could cause spots on your dishes. | yamtaddle wrote: | Ditto, no clue what either of those mean. Never, ever heard | of adding salt to a dishwasher, certainly. Not in new ones, | not in ones from the bad ol' days when they used way more | water but actually worked. | djpr wrote: | I have a new one (a few years old) and yes there's a | compartment for salt. My previous one did as well. I'm in | Europe (Spain) if that helps. I don't go to any special | store to buy them, any old Lidl or other supermarket has | it. Where you from where this isn't a thing? | jasonhansel wrote: | My dishwasher doesn't have a salt compartment or any sort of | water-softening features; in the US, I haven't heard about this | feature. Apparently it's a UK thing? | denimnerd42 wrote: | I know Miele has a water softener feature. That's the only | time I've heard of it in the US. | pdq wrote: | There are a few Bosch models with dishwasher salt | dispensers, but it's extremely rare in the US. | | It's a great idea, given most municipalities have hard | water. | swader999 wrote: | Yeah I need it with my well water. But generally we just | put up with spotty dinnerware. If we have guests over, | we'll wash whatever by hand before. | mauvehaus wrote: | Fill the salt? I'm not sure all dishwashers have a receptacle | for that. Ours doesn't, and I'm pretty confident that I've | never had one that did across several states in the US and one | place in Belgium. | | Is the salt for doing a softening process that substitutes for | a whole house softener if you don't have one? | | We live in a place with hard water and have no softener in the | house (you should see our electric kettle when we haven't | cleaned it recently). Recently the accumulation of what I | assume to be mineral film has gotten a bit noticeable on the | dishes that go in the dishwasher. | cj wrote: | My dishwasher has a "salt" light that lights up when the salt | is low. | | The dishwasher is also 30 years old. Miele G 680 SC from | 1992. Living in New York. Perhaps adding salt was more common | in older models. | [deleted] | codetrotter wrote: | > Apparently US folks often have dishwashers which don't soften | the water. Ugh. In Europe I haven't even heard that such a | thing exists! | | I've only come across this in Spain so far. Never seen in | Norway. But maybe I just haven't been paying attention. Then | again, the water in Norway in :chefskiss: | PragmaticPulp wrote: | For everyone confused by this comment: In some countries you | might find dishwashers with a sort of built-in water softener: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dishwasher_salt | | It's not common in the United States. Some all-in-one detergent | packets might contain some amount of dishwasher salt, though. | cvoss wrote: | In my limited experience in the several places I've lived in | the US, only one had an issue with water that was hard enough | to need addressing. Most residences there had a dedicated | household water softener, so even there the dishwashers | didn't need to do their own softening. | | Here's a nice map [1] | | [1] https://homewater101.com/articles/hard-water-across-us | mauvehaus wrote: | I'll give you an upvote for that little dive into Wikipedia. | For those who haven't already swum as deep, the article on | ion exchange resins[0] is also worthwhile. Turns out they are | used for reprocessing spent nuclear fuel as well as softening | water. Plus a few other things. | | [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion-exchange_resin | DwnVoteHoneyPot wrote: | I did bad in high school chemistry, I never could | understand this stuff. First, the ion exchange resin beads | are washed with Na+ which bind to the beads. Second, the | hard water is run through the beads and bad stuff like Mg2+ | has a stronger attraction to the beads than Na+, so the Na+ | is pushed off and Mg2+ binds to beads. The resulting water | out of tap is softer because Mg2+ is out, but saltier | because Na+ is in. Then once in a while the beads are | flushed with Na+ again with the Mg2+ being sent down the | drain... but how does this happen if Na+ has a weaker bond? | How can it push the Mg2+ off the beads?? | throwaway09223 wrote: | "It's not common in the United States." | | If US folks are looking for this feature, it can be found on | higher end Bosch dishwashers in the US. | | I have very hard water and a Bosch benchmark series. The | water softener makes a _huge_ difference. I don 't want a | whole-house softener because I don't enjoy the feel of | softened water in the shower. | jiveturkey wrote: | > - always fill the salt. | | rinse aid is for hard water. restaurants probably tend to not | treat the water and the commercial dishwashers they use | probably tend to not have a provision for salt. they operate | very differently than your residential dishwasher. | | So yes, completely unneeded if you have soft water. Most | dishwashers don't have a provision for salt. | | Also completely unneeded if you don't mind spots. | literalAardvark wrote: | I have hard water and a dishwasher with a softener. The | plates are dramatically cleaner if there's salt in the | softener, no matter what detergent i use. | johndoughy wrote: | > our results suggest that alcohol ethoxylates were the main | culprit component of the rinse aid responsible for the observed | toxicity and damage to the epithelial barrier integrity. | aaron695 wrote: | seydor wrote: | maybe dont wash them that often | wutheringh wrote: | I know a guy who washed his dishes, and he died | merth wrote: | I know a guy, who has 20 pans and all dirty, washes no 19 to | cook his 2$ stake. what a legand. | zgin4679 wrote: | You'd think the stakes couldn't get any higher! | PainfullyNormal wrote: | True story! | zgin4679 wrote: | I knew Bill, too. Good man, clean dishes. RIP, Bill. | WillPostForFood wrote: | You should start a business: a restaurant that serves your food | on the previous diner's unwashed dishes. | | It would be like my college apartment kitchen, so you could | hire me as manager. | seydor wrote: | The Healthy Gut Epithelium Restaurant*. | | *you might die of other causes, though | jasonhansel wrote: | You just need to buy the special "no-wash" dishes. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-12-01 23:00 UTC)