[HN Gopher] Thunderbird for Android preview: Modern message rede...
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       Thunderbird for Android preview: Modern message redesign
        
       Author : _-david-_
       Score  : 178 points
       Date   : 2022-12-05 16:56 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blog.thunderbird.net)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blog.thunderbird.net)
        
       | Twirrim wrote:
       | They're improving the email display by reducing the amount of
       | space showing the actual email?
       | 
       | By very rough measurement it's reducing the email display area by
       | about an inch, dropping it from 4" to 3". I really don't want
       | that, myself. I open an email because I want to read the email.
       | That's my primary focus. One of the really nice things about the
       | K9 interface has been that so much of the screen gets dedicated
       | to the thing I actually care about (contrast this to the way that
       | web interfaces like outlook.com love to almost relegate the email
       | content to the bottom most corner)
        
         | izacus wrote:
         | Adding better margins and spacing around text significantly
         | improves readability on mobile (usually it also makes UI
         | elements easier to distinguish).
         | 
         | Yes, there's a limit to that, but the new design is most likely
         | result in making emails easier to read despite stealing away
         | screen space.
        
         | grammers wrote:
         | I agree. Design updates in email clients are not that important
         | - unless it actually also improves usability. Unfortunately,
         | most apps just want to look fancy, not focusing on
         | functionality.
        
         | JaggedJax wrote:
         | To be fair, they are comparing a best case scenario email in
         | the current UI to a worst case email in the new UI. Multi-line
         | subject, multi-account identifier, tags, external images. So it
         | looks to me like there's actually higher information density in
         | the new UI. A little difficult to tell without a direct
         | comparison of the same email and settings though.
        
           | worble wrote:
           | Yeah, I do think they had a bit of a faux pas with this
           | showcase by not showing like-for-like differences. The first
           | email didn't have multi-line subjects or anything like that,
           | so it's hard to compare the two and see why the update might
           | actually be better.
        
           | nashashmi wrote:
           | I don't know. Seems like everything is twice or three times
           | as large.
           | 
           | Click on who else was the message sent to -> appears a big
           | box that you have to scroll to figure out who is included.
        
           | mjw1007 wrote:
           | I agree.
           | 
           | It looks to me like the only place they're really wasting
           | space is the hefty margin above the body text.
        
         | Klonoar wrote:
         | _> I really don't want that, myself. I open an email because I
         | want to read the email._
         | 
         | You have a working finger and can scroll the small amount
         | necessary to do that. More comfortable properly spaced out/laid
         | out UI/UX is generally ideal.
         | 
         | They _should_ , though (at the very least) just let the
         | padding/margins be configurable for the people who seem to care
         | about this. No reason we can't have a middle ground approach.
        
         | e12e wrote:
         | It's wierd to use different samples for new and old ui too? Why
         | show different email in different design, rather than same
         | email in different design?
        
       | dhdhhdd wrote:
       | On my device, when the email fails to send, it gets stuck in an
       | outbox, and no magic incantation is able to retry it.
       | 
       | The only thing that worked was to move the email from outbox to
       | drafts (by editing it) and then sending again.
       | 
       | I wish this got fixed :-)
        
         | tecleandor wrote:
         | I've seen something similar happen when I answer to an email
         | address that's not configured.
         | 
         | Let me explain better:                 - In K9 I only have
         | configured to receive and send from my main address. Let's say
         | it's 'main@domain.com'       - I have several different
         | addresses to my main address. Again, let's say it's
         | 'secondary@domain.com.'       - If I receive one of those
         | forwarded emails and reply to it, in the FROM you'll find
         | 'secondary@domain.com'       - It will go to the outbox, but
         | never get sent... but without any error. So you never know it
         | wasn't get sent unless you check the outbox, and you won't know
         | the reason.
         | 
         | I guess it's because there's no outgoing email profile for
         | secondary@domain.com and it's lacking some sort of error
         | management for that.
        
           | dhdhhdd wrote:
           | Interesting!
           | 
           | In my case the error is actually shown. E.g. DNS error when
           | on crappy wifi or even without network.
           | 
           | But then when i connect to a better network, it doesn't get
           | sent.
        
       | c_prompt wrote:
       | One random guy's opinion (and a long-time K9 user):
       | 
       | Little UI design changes are NOT what you should be spending
       | time/money on; they are a waste of effort given K9's already
       | strong usability. I acknowledge it's your time/money but this
       | does not make the app any more appealing. I know I sound like a
       | broken record [1] but, at minimum, I believe Thunderbird could
       | take quite a few users (who prefer privacy-focused apps) from
       | both Google and Microsoft (not to mention 3rd-party apps [2] [3]
       | [4]) by integrating functionality at the local level. This would
       | be a considerable (IMO) differentiation in functionality. I will
       | continue to use Outlook until there is a significant
       | justification to switch to Thunderbird. And until "Thunderbird
       | for Android" is significantly differentiated in functionality
       | (i.e., ignoring UI), it will remain branded in my mind as K9.
       | 
       | - Signed: someone who still calls a tall building in Chicago as
       | the Sears Tower
       | 
       | [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31728531
       | 
       | [2]
       | https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.callicia.b...
       | 
       | [3] https://addons.thunderbird.net/en-
       | us/thunderbird/addon/mypho...
       | 
       | [4] https://generalsync.com/en/
        
         | Obscurity4340 wrote:
         | What flaws are there in K9 that still motivates you to stick to
         | Outlook?
        
           | c_prompt wrote:
           | I use Outlook on my Windows PC and transfer all personal
           | contacts, calendar entries, tasks, and notes locally. I would
           | love to move to Thunderbird primarily because "Microsoft bad"
           | but then I'd lose my local transfer functionality (not to
           | mention Xobni - which still crashes every-so-often - but the
           | functionality is worth it).
        
             | yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
             | Why not just run Thunderbird on your windows pc, then? It
             | should synchronize perfectly happily using caldav et al.
        
               | c_prompt wrote:
               | Caldav requires the cloud.
        
               | matmatmatmat wrote:
               | Hm? We sync our calendars using Nextcloud, but
               | admittedly, that's not everyone's cup of tea.
        
               | goodusername wrote:
               | To avoid syncing my calendar and contacts to the cloud,
               | I'm using wireguard as a always on VPN on my phone, to
               | connect to a locally running CalDav/CardDav server.
               | Wireguard on Android can be setup to only affect specific
               | apps, so my DavX app is the only one using the VPN.
        
             | dlahoda wrote:
             | mailbird or emclient
        
             | vetinari wrote:
             | But is there a demand for desktop-based sync?
             | 
             | You can run your caldav/carddav service in your local
             | network, if you are so inclined. You will get local sync,
             | and the client authors do not have to build specific
             | desktop-based tools.
             | 
             | I for one do not want to return 15 years back, to
             | serial/irda/bluetooth sync, having to think about sync, and
             | eventually forgetting. Running a local service is much
             | preferable, with devices syncing themselves as they see
             | fit.
        
               | c_prompt wrote:
               | If you have a link for running a small footprint of a
               | caldav/carddav service on my Windows laptop, I'm all
               | ears. I played around using WSL and setting up a
               | NextCloud instance but why do I want to use 2GB+ just to
               | sync?
               | 
               | At the end of the day, I want all my personal events,
               | contacts, todos, and notes on my laptop and able to sync
               | directly with my phone. I'm happy enough with my current
               | bluetooth sync and wouldn't trade it for UI changes.
        
               | vetinari wrote:
               | Personally, I'm using a small Synology NAS and the
               | Contact and Calendar servers that Synology provides. It
               | solves the problem for being a host for multiple devices,
               | with my laptop not having to be on, or even present, at
               | all times. Also having dns entry helps.
               | 
               | But for running on your laptop? Yes, nextcloud is
               | overkill, it is not contacts/calendar server in the first
               | place. I would look for smaller, more focused tools
               | instead, baikal for example. For another inspiration, you
               | can have a look at what davx5 -- the caldav/carddav
               | provider for android -- tests against
               | (https://www.davx5.com/tested-with).
        
               | c_prompt wrote:
               | I use davx5 with my NextCloud setup on the cloud. But
               | that's not what I use (or want to use) for other events,
               | contacts, to-dos, etc.
        
               | MrBurrito wrote:
               | You can try DAViCal https://www.davical.org/
        
               | c_prompt wrote:
               | Tried it when I played with WSL. Like with radicale [1],
               | I don't remember what specifically wasn't working
               | properly but it didn't.
               | 
               | [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33872707
        
               | goodusername wrote:
               | You might be interested in https://radicale.org/v3.html.
               | Runs on my odroid board with 26mb memory. The
               | documentation is particularly good. I've used it as a
               | replacement for the Synology CalDav and CardDav services.
               | 
               | It's very easy to install and does not require a DB. As a
               | bonus, it stores everything as files which can be read
               | and edited manually. It does require python.
        
               | c_prompt wrote:
               | I had played with it for 2 days before I gave up. I don't
               | remember what specifically wasn't working properly but it
               | didn't. Even if I had gotten it to work, syncing between
               | a Windows PC and Android device should not require that
               | level of effort.
        
         | orra wrote:
         | > Little UI design changes are NOT what you should be spending
         | time/money on; they are a waste of effort given K9's already
         | strong usability
         | 
         | I'm going to go out on a limb and disagree. I left K-9 ages
         | ago, because unfortunately for ages it had no Material Design.
         | 
         | These upcoming changes are a modernisation. That's good for
         | mass appeal. Mass users don't want an app which looks
         | antiquated.
        
           | handedness wrote:
           | On the other hand, I can't imagine leaving an app for that
           | reason.
           | 
           | As one who fairly loathes Material Design (especially on
           | mobile), I was hoping cketti would fix what's wrong with
           | Thunderbird, rather than Thunderbird ruining the best Android
           | email client out there, which is now looking like an almost
           | certainty.
           | 
           | I really hope there's a good fork.
        
             | awill wrote:
             | I'm neither for or against Material Design, but when I used
             | Android, but MD was generally a good sign that the app was
             | well supported, and the devs cared about UX. When I'd
             | search for an app, the high quality apps were almost always
             | MD. Maybe k9 was an exception, but I'm sure they lost
             | potential users.
        
         | kevincox wrote:
         | As a short-time K9 user I disagree. You have to pick between
         | the display name and email of senders. There is no way to show
         | both. This is because of problems with the UI design that risks
         | being misleading with malicious names.
         | 
         | The think there are also lots of UX improvements that would be
         | great. Right now the threading UI is awkward. I'm really glad
         | that swipe actions and swiping between messages have landed as
         | well.
         | 
         | I like K9 but I can definitely see the benefit of better UX.
        
         | ilyt wrote:
         | "But we hired designers and if we don't make small design
         | changes they'd be out of work"
         | 
         | Seriously that's how most of the UI trends feel like
        
         | lelandfe wrote:
         | > _Little UI design changes are NOT what you should be spending
         | time /money on; they are a waste of effort given K9's already
         | strong usability_
         | 
         | "This rotary phone in the office is perfectly fine and usable!
         | The new-hires just need to learn how it works, and then it's
         | the exact same thing."
        
           | tmtvl wrote:
           | Learn how it works? It's a rotary phone! Just turn the disk
           | the appropriate amount for the number you're dialing and
           | loose. You could train a chimpanzee to do that.
        
             | lelandfe wrote:
             | You've rather missed my point, I think: an unfamiliar or
             | aging look over what is a common interface is a huge
             | problem for gaining new users.
             | 
             | Further, I have witnessed people not understand rotary
             | phones. Plunk one down in front of 10 teenagers and I would
             | wager few indeed would intuit it immediately.
        
           | worble wrote:
           | What's wrong with rotary phones, other than being different
           | to the current norm?
        
             | lelandfe wrote:
             | "Intuitiveness" is AKA "resembling the current norm" when
             | it comes to UX. Updating an aging UI to fit current
             | patterns makes it more cohesive with the operating system,
             | attracts more new users, and avoids confusing those new
             | users.
             | 
             | Attempting to paint "strong usability" through the lens of
             | existing users only (the guy who already knows how to use a
             | rotary phone) is a lopsided view of the goals for an app
             | creator.
        
             | rlpb wrote:
             | It's slow and tedious to dial numbers with many high digits
             | in them. And there's no quick dial function for commonly
             | used numbers. Both of these things directly impact UX.
        
         | PenguinCoder wrote:
         | > Signed: someone who still calls a tall building in Chicago as
         | the Sears Tower
         | 
         | I think all locals/natives to the 312 and 773 still refer to it
         | as such. Ain't changing!
        
           | nicholasjarnold wrote:
           | confirmed. it's not changing. haven't lived there for a
           | while, but it'll always be the Sears Tower if you ask me.
        
         | snthd wrote:
         | Would JMAP not be a better focus both in general, and to
         | attract those same users?
         | 
         | https://github.com/thundernest/k-9/issues/3272
        
           | commandersaki wrote:
           | There's only one significant mail provider that supports
           | JMAP.
        
             | zahllos wrote:
             | ...and it must also be said that the selection of client
             | software that supports it is somewhat limited. For this
             | discussion, Thunderbird does not. I'd also add that some
             | fairly major providers, e.g. anything based on MS Exchange,
             | and Google's Android client, do their own thing (e.g.
             | ActiveSync).
             | 
             | For myself I'm aware of a bunch of bugs in Thunderbird
             | affecting my experience and I'd rather these were fixed
             | first.
        
       | zmk5 wrote:
       | Kudos to the team. Looks great from the preview. I hope there is
       | an iOS version in the works. I would love to use this on my
       | iPhone instead of the default mail app.
        
       | quasarj wrote:
       | We need Exchange support, not whatever this is
        
       | ponytech wrote:
       | I am a Thunderbird user on desktop but I had been using Blue Mail
       | on Android for several years and had been pretty happy with it. I
       | may switch to Thunderbird when they have the sync feature
       | implemented.
        
         | lucb1e wrote:
         | K9 already exists today if you want to switch which is
         | "thunderbird for android" with a different name, but what do
         | you mean with sync feature? That it shows notifications, or
         | fetches all your email for offline reading or so?
        
       | solarkraft wrote:
       | Oh boy, I don't like that the document is split by the sender
       | info. Other than that I'm happy that a nice FOSS app is receiving
       | design attention.
        
       | indymike wrote:
       | Here are three killer features that would be a much better use of
       | design/developer time:
       | 
       | * Give me a way to filter email based on the ORIGINATING SERVER,
       | not the advertised one. I.e. give me a way to filter stuff coming
       | from from bunchofalphanum.something.else.salesforce.com that is
       | relayed for somedomain.com with good domainkeys << This will make
       | email useful again.
       | 
       | * Give me a way to quickly unsubscribe from marketing emails in
       | the email list view. (last I looked couldn't do that in K9 or TB
       | for android)
       | 
       | * Give me a really nice threaded view with my responses inline
       | inbound messages as an option.
        
       | nolls wrote:
       | If you're going to use stock pictures to demo your interface at
       | least make sure that they match the sex of the name...
        
       | egberts1 wrote:
       | Any mail client (web, mobile, or desktop) that does NOT display
       | the fully-qualified email address (FQEM) next to the "UTF-8"
       | fancy name gets a hard PASS from me.
       | 
       | Such FQEM should ALWAYS display the fully-qualified email
       | address.
       | 
       | I am looking at all the email clients so far. (Please correct me
       | as I would love to be slightly wrong).
       | 
       | I think I can safely speak for all tired people that we are tired
       | of spam.
        
         | lucb1e wrote:
         | This sounds like the type of thing FairEmail might have as an
         | option. You could also have your email server change the fancy
         | name to an ascii name so any client would display that.
        
       | college_physics wrote:
       | How would that interoperate with the desktop thunderbird?
        
         | guerrilla wrote:
         | It seems to be an unrelated code base.
        
           | college_physics wrote:
           | that's fine (or could be :-). I am thinking more about
           | syncing the state of differnt mailboxes, local storage on
           | mobile versus desktop, what is read / unread, user tags and
           | other such things. I.e. how to use the mobile and desktop
           | together as different clients to the same email content.
        
             | aendruk wrote:
             | In typical use both are IMAP clients.
        
             | Maxburn wrote:
             | The majority of what you are talking about (read / unread,
             | user tags and other such things) is handled by the IMAP
             | server. eg; I routinely start drafts on mobile, save it,
             | then continue to draft on a computer before sending. Also
             | set flags on mobile for follow up later on desktop. Almost
             | none of this depends on the client itself, it's all stored
             | in IMAP.
        
             | jeroenhd wrote:
             | Read/unread and tags are all supported by IMAP already so
             | that should be possible for sure. Same with
             | starring/flagging email, any willing mail client could
             | implement those.
             | 
             | The big integration points I see are within special
             | features such as some kind of cross device PGP support, the
             | ability to sync customised "from" addresses, and other
             | features that the more basic built-in email apps lack.
             | 
             | Perhaps the code could be further extended to also support
             | calendar, task, and chat functionality, just like on
             | desktop, but that would take more effort.
        
         | CalebJohn wrote:
         | They plan to integrate Firefox Sync with Thunderbird (android
         | and desktop)[1]
         | 
         | [1]:
         | https://developer.thunderbird.net/planning/roadmap#firefox-s...
        
           | college_physics wrote:
           | that would actually be... quite good. but I'd love to see
           | more ambition (and community support) for thunderbird. I
           | would like it (or some future converge) to be my RSS reader
           | and, why not, my fediverse client.
        
       | heffer wrote:
       | I'm mentally preparing for the inevitable "Microsoft Office
       | Ribbons UI"-esque resentments from the power users in the
       | comments.
       | 
       | Give it time.
        
         | asdfigadfjinio wrote:
         | No, I don't think I will give it time. UIs should nearly never
         | be changed. It doesn't matter much whether or not it's an
         | improvement. Don't monkey with other people's tools.
        
           | Kwpolska wrote:
           | Should we still be using the Windows 1.0 UI from 1985?
        
             | hulitu wrote:
             | Windows 10 looks a lot like 1.0 except that it is black.
        
           | waboremo wrote:
           | Whether it's an improvement matters, actually that's
           | explicitly the only point.
        
             | horsawlarway wrote:
             | I've said this before, but it's worth saying again:
             | 
             | Define "improvement".
             | 
             | Because the best UI (as in unquestionably the absolute
             | best) is the UI that you're already an expert with.
             | 
             | Can there be better UIs later? Yes.
             | 
             | Can there be better UIs for new customers? Yes.
             | 
             | Can there be a better UI than the one you're already an
             | expert in? NO! At least not until you do the work to become
             | an expert in the new UI all over again.
             | 
             | At a minimum, you're asking users to trust you that re-
             | learning their UI will ultimately be a better experience
             | for them. Because it will absolutely suck for your existing
             | user base when it first changes (this is why UI changes are
             | almost exclusively met with negative backlash from the
             | current users).
             | 
             | Can you do that? Sure. Do companies do it often? Nope. The
             | vast majority of the time, the UI is changing for one of
             | two reasons:
             | 
             | 1. The company believes the new user experience is better
             | with a different UI. They are actively trading existing
             | customer satisfaction to improve metrics around new users.
             | 
             | 2. The company believes they can drive users to new
             | features with a new UI. They are actively trading existing
             | customer satisfaction to improve metrics around new
             | features.
             | 
             | Neither of those are compelling reasons for a new UI from
             | the perspective of an existing customer.
             | 
             | Broadly - they might still be an acceptable trade for a
             | company on the whole. But don't expect happiness from your
             | current users, and be very wary of the churn and brand
             | loyalty you're burning by making the change.
        
         | yamtaddle wrote:
         | I still hate the ribbons. I go looking in the top "file - edit
         | - view - [...]" menus for things that used to be there, find
         | them absent, and then have to go play Where's Waldo in the damn
         | ribbon. Even in Explorer, these days! And the ribbons
         | themselves just seem like a jumble of button sizes and
         | placement with no rhyme or reason.
        
           | MAGZine wrote:
           | I think they're placed and sized based on frequency of use.
           | 
           | Anyone who thinks file -> print -> page setup is a better
           | place for orientation buttons than the ribbon gets my
           | curmudgeon award.
        
             | yamtaddle wrote:
             | That _is_ a pretty good place to have orientation buttons
             | _for printing_. Especially if it 's in the exact same place
             | in practically every program that can print. Programs like
             | Word managed to have toolbars for all kinds of things
             | before the Ribbon interface, and that was usually fine.
             | Often they even had printing-related buttons (in addition
             | to file -> print).
             | 
             | One big difference is that these tended to be more compact
             | and one-dimensional. There's a lot of eye movement involved
             | in scanning a ribbon toolbar, looking for something, since
             | you have to scan both up-and-down and side-to-side; and the
             | mixed-size icons, mixed icons-and-labels that don't
             | segregate icons and labels to their own rows or columns but
             | jumble them together so you're always scanning a mix of
             | both, and inconsistent placement between programs make the
             | whole thing feel _slow_ and frustrating.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | Jorengarenar wrote:
       | >Today, it's something even more exciting: a completely
       | redesigned message view!
       | 
       | Every user in existence: oh no...
        
         | jeroenhd wrote:
         | I've used K9 in the past for its functionality but I switched
         | back to the Gmail app because the UI wasn't very good. I got
         | the feeling it was designed by and for programmers rather than
         | for a good experience.
         | 
         | I'm sure most K9 users will lament the change and demand (the
         | option) to undo the redesign, but I personally consider this to
         | be a massive improvement, big enough to give switching back a
         | go.
         | 
         | I just hope the users who prefer the old look will have the
         | ability to use a fork/alternate version so that they won't be
         | forced to adopt the new UI, perhaps one that only receives the
         | bare minimum amount of maintenance to keep current features
         | working for those that need them.
        
           | nashashmi wrote:
           | Eye candy is definitely the appeal of a commercial app. It
           | should not be the appeal of a technical and sophisticated
           | app. And that is what K9 was to so many for so long. The only
           | reason I left for outlook is because I was able to fit more
           | information in a small screen and because my workplace
           | migrated to Exchange which was outlook exclusive.
        
       | ilyt wrote:
       | > It's clean and readable, but we can do more to help you stay
       | organized and to highlight key information at a glance.
       | 
       |  _proceeds to remove content from the screen_
       | 
       |  _shoves "show image" in the middle instead of leaving that space
       | for actual message content
       | 
       | Seriously, it looks like they just copied how GMail on mobile
       | looks but _badly* and with more wasted space
        
       | arendtio wrote:
       | Reading about a Thunderbird version for Android got me exited,
       | because I am a big fan of the desktop version (actually, I
       | donated a few bucks this week). However, on Android I used K9 for
       | years, until I noticed how unreliable it became. I switched to
       | Outlook and it is okay.
       | 
       | When I saw that the Thunderbird app will be based on K9, the
       | excitement vanished instantly. I really hope they will invest
       | into the reliability issues. Judging from the play store
       | comments, it could be worth it.
        
         | tecleandor wrote:
         | I don't know when you used K9 for the last time, but it has
         | improved in stability greatly in the last ~two years. It's true
         | that some years ago it went downhill for a while.
        
       | Aachen wrote:
       | Last time I used K9 was in ~2020 (then I discovered FairEmail) so
       | I'm not married to the old UI in any way, but from the before and
       | after screenshots, this seems like a regression:
       | 
       | 1. Firstly, why did this need rebuilding? I know they want to
       | rebrand it from K9 to Thunderbird and I'm happy that the
       | thunderbird team isn't going to be caught up for years trying to
       | rewrite what already exists while K9 gets to benefit from a
       | comparatively very, very well-known name. But what was so
       | fundamentally broken here that it needs to be entirely remade?
       | Could just have applied a color scheme.
       | 
       | 2. I had trouble recognising the subject as part of the email
       | (but only in the new layout). I was looking for it and looking
       | for it... and it turns out banner blindness strikes again: it's
       | above where I thought the email started. No problem, that's an
       | issue on day one only, people will get used to that soon enough.
       | 
       | 3. The attention grabber on every email is going to be the
       | purple-colored "SHOW REMOTE IMAGES" (caps theirs). I can't recall
       | the last time I've shown remote images. Perhaps a Domino's email
       | where they briefly hid the discount codes in images in 2016/'17?
       | Anyway I hope that can be moved into a menu as it apparently was
       | before.
       | 
       | 4. The date has like ten characters available to it. What happens
       | when it's not "10:00 am"? This seems designed by a designer, then
       | the coder comes in and finds that "yesterday" still fits but
       | "2022-07-03 22:47" is going a problem. That means either making
       | design decisions single-handedly and annoying users who were
       | promised (and gave input on) a different design, or going back to
       | the design team and the mailing list for input and on lord no
       | let's just hide the time and get something done today
       | 
       | 5. There's suddenly a lot more space on the side. Hope that's
       | configurable, I don't have a large phone to begin with. Probably
       | just me.
       | 
       | 6. The text seems bold and blurry. Probably the screenshot just
       | isn't shown at 1:1 size (old layout looks crystal sharp though?)
       | and the bold might be the email in question using a bold tag. One
       | can hope.
       | 
       | 7. Recipients hidden when the field has literally ONE word in it
       | ("Alessandro"), there is space for at least another same-sized
       | name and a blank line below. I bet if you click that tiny expand
       | button (good luck not pressing on the user and composing an email
       | to them instead), nothing in the layout has to change to show the
       | three other names. This would annoy the heck out of me if I'd use
       | K9 for work where more than one recipient is common.
       | 
       | 8. It says "Thunderbird Ryan" on top. Is that me? Is it reminding
       | me who I am / which account I'm using, and using another two
       | lines of text for that (one for the text, top and bottom each
       | like half a line's worth of borders and spacing)? Sure hope
       | that's default hidden if you have one account only and configure
       | if not.
       | 
       | 9. What does a green lock with "OpenPGP" mean? Was the email
       | encrypted or signed? Both? Either? Is transport encryption
       | indicated? Can that also trigger the green lock? I was going to
       | ignore this but was looking for something positive to close out
       | with, scrolled down, noticed the pgp overlay screen and that it's
       | also not mentioned on there, and thought that this is an
       | essential UI element if users are ever going to know what the
       | lock icon guarantees, so UI space needs to be in the mockup if
       | you're drawing what the detail views are going to look like.
       | 
       | 10. "Alessandro Castell..." is as far as it gets for the sender
       | in the new layout before cutting it off. On the old layout,
       | "Edgar W. Dijkstra" fit with two thirds of the line still empty.
       | There's something to say for putting more on that line, but not
       | even fitting one name in a field where a name is supposed to go?
       | Interesting choice. Hopefully you know your correspondents by
       | full name already or you'll need to open up another view if you
       | only know them by last name, want to address them as Dear Mr.
       | Castellsomething in a reply...
       | 
       | Some of these are not going to be an issue for most people, but
       | I've tried to look for clearly positive changes and haven't
       | really been able to identify any. Likely most people will run
       | into at least one of these. I wonder still: why in the first
       | place...
        
       | eterps wrote:
       | HN'ers that use the K9 Mail app, with which email provider are
       | you using it?
       | 
       | What features of K9 do you like/dislike, especially compared to
       | the GMail app?
        
         | miedpo wrote:
         | I use it with a few different email providers, including
         | fastmail and a self hosted server. Works pretty well for what I
         | need it to do.
         | 
         | The only feature it's missing which hurts is nested folders.
         | All nested folders are displayed in a list structure, rather
         | than a tree, which is a bit of a pain if you use a nested
         | archive (think Thunderbird's Monthly Archive structure).
        
         | walrus01 wrote:
         | > with which email provider are you using it?
         | 
         | My own fully self hosted dns, postfix SMTP and dovecot IMAP
         | over TLS setup. Not something to attempt casually unless you
         | work in network engineering for an ISP and have the motivation
         | to maintain your own MX and email hosting environment for other
         | reasons.
        
         | Multicomp wrote:
         | I use it with Fastmail for my main email + calendar + todos,
         | and I use it with Purelymail[1] for simply emails with no
         | nonsense.
         | 
         | Both accounts, once setup, just behave.
         | 
         | On the groupware front, I use DavX5 and ICSx5 to do to calendar
         | and todo sync to fastmail, and Tasks.org [2] to do the front
         | end for the todos.
         | 
         | For my work accounts, I use the nine email app which lets me
         | authenticate to exchange active sync without needing a work
         | profile on my phone so I can see emails, calendar, todos etc.
         | 
         | [1] purelymail.com
         | 
         | [2] https://tasks.org/
        
         | creeble wrote:
         | I use it on some self-hosted domains (all IMAP) but have used
         | it with Migadu, MXroute, and others.
         | 
         | I generally like it more than FairMail (simpler, fewer options
         | that I seemed to need to set). But I have tried to sell it to
         | other Android users, and not having swipe-delete made all of
         | them give up. I'm fine without it, but would probably adapt to
         | it if it was Thunderbird standard; I use the iOS email app a
         | lot too.
        
         | zepearl wrote:
         | 4 self-hosted accounts, but I don't like much the ~new UI
         | because it makes switching account more complex.
        
         | kevinfiol wrote:
         | I use K9 Mail with Migadu.
         | 
         | Feature-wise, nothing really caught my attention compared to
         | Gmail. At the time that I switched, however, K9 Mail was
         | noticeably snappier for me, had no Google Play Services
         | dependency, and weighed about 7MB to Gmail's 50MB (at the
         | time).
        
           | eterps wrote:
           | Thanks, never heard of Migadu before.
        
           | Tmpod wrote:
           | Same situation and reasons here.
           | 
           | Migadu has been perfect for my needs. The basic plan at $20/m
           | is more than enough and it's basically dirt cheap. If you're
           | a student you can even get it for half the price. I really
           | like their lax and understanding limit policy.
        
             | joshstrange wrote:
             | Looks like "Basic" (Standard) is now $29 which even at $20
             | I thought was rather high having never heard of them
             | before. After reading through their website and pricing
             | page it's pretty interesting.
             | 
             | Instead of paying per "user"/"email address"/etc you pay
             | for usage (sent/received/storage). With this you can add as
             | many domains/email addresses/users that you want. If you
             | have 20 domain names where you just need need 1 mailbox it
             | costs the same as 1 domain name with 20 mailboxes since it
             | all comes down to usage.
             | 
             | If I wasn't so deep into google workspace (or whatever they
             | are calling it this month, G-suite/g-apps/google apps for
             | your domain) and if I had it to do over again I would use
             | this in a heartbeat, I still might but it will be harder to
             | move (need to figure out how to keep docs/drive/calendar
             | stuff on google or migrate it to other services).
             | 
             | Fastmail was the fallback provider I always considered
             | moving to but at $3-$5/user it's a pain to add old/low-
             | volume accounts that still need to be monitored but aren't
             | seeing a ton of use. Migadu solves that problem very nicely
             | and would probably lead to me spinning up new "mailboxes"
             | much faster/sooner because I imagine it's pretty easy to do
             | and then only need to think about upgrading as your usage
             | increases, not just your mailbox count.
             | 
             | I couldn't find a good answer to "does spam count towards
             | your receiving limits", I found a reddit post [0] that says
             | it doesn't and that the limits are soft anyway (which I had
             | already seen) so I'm assuming this is the case or it
             | doesn't really matter in the long run.
             | 
             | Lastly I wish they would offer 2FA though I understand
             | their current reasoning (still need no-2FA/app-specific-
             | passwords for IMAP so does 2FA really matter?). I get what
             | they are saying but it feels like they could implement 2FA
             | for managing/overseeing your account and then have app-
             | specific passwords for each mailbox (maybe 1 main with the
             | ability to create others so you could disable it if you
             | decide to stop using a client/service that you attach to
             | your email)? I could be missing something as I've not
             | actually signed up and tried the service, yet.
             | 
             | [0] https://old.reddit.com/r/Migadu/comments/jqej2i/do_noti
             | ficat...
        
             | Zekio wrote:
             | Migadu is great especially if you mostly receive emails and
             | aren't sending out hundreds of emails every day
        
         | Maxburn wrote:
         | You might consider Aquamail. I found it to be more powerful and
         | configurable than K9 or Kaiten when I was on android.
         | 
         | I'm MXRoute/fastmail/gmail/exchange on the back end for MX
         | service providers.
        
         | MayeulC wrote:
         | My own yunohost-based mail server, an ISP mail box, two
         | university mailboxes (zimbra).
         | 
         | I mainly like that it's FOSS and on F-Droid (no google services
         | for me). I haven't used Gmail in years, but IIRC, no annoying
         | smart replies or features I don't use like gdrive, photos,
         | hangouts... denser UI, reliable notifications, unified inbox,
         | good multi-account support, support for gpg. It generally gets
         | out of the way. My mother asked me to reinstall it after she
         | changed phones.
         | 
         | I could use better support for nested IMAP folders, better
         | search and syncing of said folders. Probably a better config
         | workflows for non techies? Though that's pretty good already.
         | 
         | I would really like it to be easier to customize the sender
         | mail address, as I make extensive use of +aliases, and would
         | have to create a new identity each time.
        
         | johnchristopher wrote:
         | I use it for work email. No notifications, it's just a way to
         | read-only and check if anything comes up when I am AFK.
        
         | strtby wrote:
         | Migadu(mydomains), google(gmail), microsoft (outlook/hotmail)
        
         | branon wrote:
         | Using it with Gandi.
         | 
         | I mainly like that it's no-BS, just works, is available on
         | F-Droid, small download, dark theme, import/export for accounts
         | and settings, lots of switches to flip in the settings should I
         | find any of them necessary to use. I expect none of this to
         | change with the Thunderbird rebrand so it's a win for both
         | projects _and_ the users as far as I can see.
        
         | pmontra wrote:
         | I'm using the old K9 (before the pre-Mozilla redesign saga)
         | with three POP3 accounts on the mail servers of the registars
         | of my domains. I check my mail on my phone, read it, delete the
         | unnecessary messages, eventually download on my computer
         | (Thunderbird) and backup.
         | 
         | The old UI is very good at this worflow and that's why I ended
         | up using K9. The new UI with the unified inbox is bad at it.
         | This K9/Thunderbird? I should download it to understand how it
         | works. Probably like the new UI but who knows.
        
         | canistel wrote:
         | I switched back to K9 recently, as OAUTH2 works now. I am using
         | Gmail(IMAP) and Rediffmail(POP3).
         | 
         | Light-weight. Does not add accounts to Android system. Less
         | colours.
        
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