[HN Gopher] CircleCI Layoffs ___________________________________________________________________ CircleCI Layoffs Author : fasgano Score : 84 points Date : 2022-12-07 21:23 UTC (1 hours ago) (HTM) web link (circleci.com) (TXT) w3m dump (circleci.com) | 015a wrote: | I don't want to turn a discussion surrounding layoffs into a lens | about the business itself; it sucks to be laid off, and I wish | everyone who was impacted great expediency in finding a new role. | | But I'm going to anyway: I genuinely don't understand how | CircleCI is still a business. Every major code repository | provider has CI built in. All of the ones I've interacted with | (Github Actions & Gitlab) are just as good as CircleCI and in | some ways far better (e.g. there's a stellar community of Actions | builders on GHA, that can be included with one line; CCI Orbs | don't have nearly the same uptake). Pricing is all pretty | similar. Some companies want to self-host stuff: JetBrains & | Atlassian still own this. | | Ultimately we left CCI because their stability was unacceptable. | While its been quite a few months, their status page history even | today showcases this well [1]; they legitimately have partial or | full outages once every two or so weeks (and those are just the | ones they tell people about; we _regularly_ , weekly, saw build | failures that could only be explained by "freakin circleci, just | re-run it"). | | [1] https://status.circleci.com/ | zamalek wrote: | We also recently left them for self-hosted GHA runners. The | other problem is that their pricing is insane - we're building | exactly the same code for ~20% of the cost. | mousetree wrote: | I could never understand their bills. I seemed to get dozens | of small invoices throughout the month. Their whole concept | of credits was completely puzzling too. Left to GHA. | meta2023 wrote: | You're being downvoted for telling people exactly why they got | laid off. It's time to wake the fuck up engineers. When you | complacently don't pay attention to your business and core | offering, this is what happens. | Tao3300 wrote: | Engineers aren't generally setting the priorities on what | gets fixed when or what the business is actually offering. | The complacency problem is usually in management. | | Can't speak for how CCI is run, but that's how it is at most | places with more than 10 people. | prepend wrote: | Engineers choose who to work for. | | We go through these cycles where "I have no idea how they | make money but they keep paying me" stops working. There's | only so long you can work for a company that doesn't have a | viable business strategy. | | I don't expect engineers to fix the business strategy, but | I expect them to consider it when choosing to join a | company or to stay. | icedchai wrote: | Exactly this. I've worked for founders at small companies | (<20 people) who just did _not_ want to listen to advice or | suggestions. It would be almost impossible to change | anything at a larger firm. Let 's just keep doing the same | old thing that isn't working. | pitched wrote: | I think the saying is "vote with your feet". There's | always at least one thing you can change. Your time is | worth more than your salary, otherwise they wouldn't pay | it. If you don't think a business will survive, stop | investing into them with your time. | spamizbad wrote: | Pretty good severance terms all things considered. | jrockway wrote: | What's the context behind this? I've used CircleCI at many jobs, | and I guess people must have moved on to some better tool? What's | the better tool? | the_mitsuhiko wrote: | I am not sure about "better" but a lot of people who previously | used Travis and Circle use GitHub Actions these days (and maybe | azure in the meantime). | edaemon wrote: | It does seem like CI/CD turned out to be less of a product | and more of a feature. | the_mitsuhiko wrote: | I think CI in particular turned out to be something that | people really, really don't like being unreliable and it's | incredibly challenging to operate reliably and cost | effective. For Microsoft providing that service is somewhat | possible because they have the warchest and operation | teams. | | I think there is a different world where Travis (and | Circle) could have been built differently and maybe with a | slightly different operating model (eg: easier to operate | self hosted runners) where they could have made it harder | for GitHub to compete in the beginning. But not sure if | that would have delayed the inevitable. | acdha wrote: | I would assume some combination of "VC funding is no longer | raining from the sky" and "GitHub Actions are good enough for | enough teams not to want a second procurement". | simplotek wrote: | > What's the context behind this? | | From the article: | | > Right now, however, there is a ripple effect of uncertainty | in our sector. Since the start of Q4, we've seen a dramatic | shift in how every company's performance is evaluated. | Companies were once praised for growth at all costs. Very | rapidly, market expectations have shifted. The emphasis now is | on maximizing efficiency. | | It sounds like they are cowardly using the | Google/Amazon/Twitter workforce decimation campaign as a | scapegoat to fire people. | wongarsu wrote: | I find their explanation pretty reasonable. In 2020 and 2021 | money used to be close to free, with interest rates near zero | and VCs throwing money at anyone with a growth story. Now | both of these are no longer true, VCs are much more reserved | and bank loans much more expensive. And with money being more | expensive to acquire, everyone is more considerate about | spending money (and thus manpower). | vander_elst wrote: | I've heard about Twitter and Amazon campaigns, but not | Google's yet. Would it be possible to provide a link for | that? | urbandw311er wrote: | Just because this comment and/or like of discussion could be | perceived as insensitive on a day when people are getting tough | news, can I jump in to say that I think it's more likely to be | symptomatic of the general global downturn and current wave of | cost-cutting than it is any particular issue with product fit | or competitors. | acdha wrote: | I'd also add something along the line of SaaS fatigue. The | costs of managing vendors, securing & monitoring, etc. add up | and it's not uncommon for the overhead cost of another | service to be more than the benefits of using it. CI falls | into that category since there's an upper bound to how much a | dedicated service can give you, especially when the | competition like GitHub or GitLab gives you a bunch of other | features for the same price. | FlyingSnake wrote: | CircleCI has gone the same way as Docker. They pioneered a | paradigm but late entrants like GitHub/GitLab/Bitrise etc stole | the show with their offerings. Most teams I've seen use either | of these instead of CircleCI | idoh wrote: | I was one of the 17% laid off from CircleCI today. It's true, we | did get to keep our laptops :) As for reasons, it doesn't seem to | be from any current woes in the numbers (or at least from the | stats I saw). | | So, um, anyone looking for a PM with experience in security or | data privacy? Hit me up! | | I'm happy to answer any questions I can, and good luck to all | those who've been laid off recently (at Circle or otherwise). | ZeKK14 wrote: | The list is already updated here: https://layoffs.fyi/ | echelon wrote: | It would be really great if this broke out engineering from | support and other roles. | siquick wrote: | Circle was the first CI/CD tool I used and opened my eyes up to a | whole new way of deploying. I haven't used it for a few years but | hope they can find a space. | aftbit wrote: | I feel for all the engineers impacted by this layoff, but I do | not agree that they are "the best CI/CD platform on the market". | | Our small team has moved away from CircleCI for all new projects. | We are mostly using Github Actions these days. The major driver | was not cost, which was minimal for our team, but the fact that | CircleCI keeps breaking our build. In the ~5 years that we have | used them, we have experienced at least 3 major breakages, | including the migration from v1 to v2 yaml configs and the new | docker architecture. | | They have strayed far from their early value prop and cause us | more headaches than delight. CircleCI, if you are listening, all | I want with CI/CD is to forget about it, not have to revisit a | working project every year to rearchitect it onto a new builder. | hoherd wrote: | I guess this is a good place to remind folks that scheduled | workflows will probably stop working soon | | > The scheduled workflows feature is set to be deprecated. | Using scheduled pipelines rather than scheduled workflows | offers several benefits. Visit the scheduled pipelines | migration guide to find out how to migrate existing scheduled | workflows to scheduled pipelines. | | https://circleci.com/docs/configuration-reference/#schedule | | One more thing to migrate out of the config file in the repo | and off behind some API call or pointy-clicky UX. | | Edit: it looks like they've postponed the deprecation, which | was originally planned for 2022-06-03 | https://discuss.circleci.com/t/scheduled-pipelines-are-here/... | fasgano wrote: | CircleCI lets go of 17% of their workforce today. | nocobot wrote: | but hey, they get to keep their laptops | raymondh wrote: | For those of you unfamiliar with layoff practices in most | other industries, this is as good as it gets. The terms | enumerated in the note are generous. Also, the value of the | job placement support should not be underestimated. | indigodaddy wrote: | They don't want to pony up $ for the prepaid labels I'm | guessing? The laptops are sunk cost anyway and then there's | also the additional overhead of processing the returned | laptops with their IT? Man things must be really bad if | that's the case.. | trynewideas wrote: | Are there tax implications? Do the laptops count as losses | CircleCI can write off, and compensation the ex-employee | has to report? | johnrob wrote: | Surprised that is possible in the age of compliance for | certifications (PCI, HIPPA, SOC2, etc). | indigodaddy wrote: | Was also wondering about this. Perhaps they will push a | wipe or a clean reinstall.. | hobr wrote: | If they are using Mobile Device Management (MDM), they can | remotely wipe all the laptops before allowing departing | staff to keep them. | calrueb wrote: | With these non-IPO companies doing layoffs is the correct way to | read these announcements "we are letting people go to lower | expenses because we are not profitable and are actually at risk | of running out of money" or is it more "we are letting people go | to lower expenses because our investors are asking that we look | better on paper because they would like us to have a liquidity | exit event (acquisition, private equity, IPO)"? | | I suppose my larger question is if a private company is break- | even/profitable would the investors/board ever ask management to | make these cuts? If so, why? | datalopers wrote: | For all companies, public or private, they need to grow their | gross margins if they want to survive. The last 5-10 years was | inappropriately focused on revenue and headcount growth and the | tide has very abruptly shifted. | xedrac wrote: | I suspect it has a lot to do with the rate at which companies | can borrow money. | wongarsu wrote: | All of the above. | | Suppose you have a company with no money, but with a bank | willing to loan you money at market rate. You can do three | projects, one costs $1 mil, and after a year brings you $1.5 | mil in profit, the second costs $1 mil and brings $1.05 mil | after a year, and the third costs $1 mil and brings $1.01 mil. | | In 2021 interest rates were near zero, so all three projects | would have given you a profit. The worst of the bunch only | $10,000, but that's still nice. So you hire people to do all of | them. But now at the end of 2022 interest rates are about 4% | and climbing. The loan for each project now costs $40,000, | making the last project unprofitable, and the second project | will only be profitable for a couple more months at best. So | you cut projects 2 and 3, laying off everyone working on them. | | That's how a healthy company would end up with layoffs. A less | healthy company might only have projects like the second and | third one, and is now running around trying to improve | efficiency. And some companies don't make profit at all, being | afloat on the hope of eventually making some, and slowly | sinking as that money becomes more and more expensive. | notyourwork wrote: | Really good summary of how different economic times are | handled differently at a business strategy level. It's worth | noting as an engineer because risky startups 2 years ago are | not carrying the same level of risk for you as an IC to | contribute to today. It could be case that a startup closes | doors way faster/quicker today whereas a few years back | they'd continue burning cash. | | This is why jobs are not just a job but you are investing in | a company so to speak because if the company is not | successful your job may also not be needed any longer. | thebitguru wrote: | I don't know about CircleCI specifically, but generally, pre- | IPO companies are pushed to reinvest profits in favor of | aggressive/continued growth, instead of profit. Most companies | intentionally overspend, but now that the investments are | drying out, they are changing their posture. So, I would guess | it's the former, i.e., letting people go to reduce the risk of | running out of money. | | At the same time, depending on how the business is doing, some | investors might look for exits too instead of plateau or later | raising another round. So, it could be both. | candiddevmike wrote: | > Despite today's news, we're confident in our business. I | believe we have the right strategy to succeed in the long term. | We have the best CI/CD platform on the market by leaps and | bounds. We see that success reflected in the continued growth of | our business, adding thousands of high-performing engineering | teams to our platform over the past 12 months. | | Clearly that's not the case if you're doing layoffs, no? Wouldn't | you want to keep those folks around so you can do that bit at the | bottom: "Our customers are some of the most innovative, | engineering-centric businesses on the planet, and helping them do | great work will continue to be our focus." | CharlesW wrote: | > _Wouldn 't you want to keep those folks around..._ | | I'm sure they would if they felt they could, however... | | _" ...there is a ripple effect of uncertainty in our sector. | Since the start of Q4, we've seen a dramatic shift in how every | company's performance is evaluated. Companies were once praised | for growth at all costs. Very rapidly, market expectations have | shifted. The emphasis now is on maximizing efficiency."_ | | Meaning, this is (as I read it) largely a response to investor | pressure to right-size. | jfengel wrote: | This is how the business cycle works. Companies expand during | the booms, so that they can prepare to take on more business | than they are currently doing. Eventually somebody realizes | that it has all been irrationally exuberant, and a bunch of | them get laid off. | | This is why the standard economics policy is to try to grow | slowly and smoothly rather than have big boom and bust cycles. | As the saying goes, the Fed's job is to take the punch bowl | away just as the party gets started. | | But unfortunately, everybody loves punch, and boos when the Fed | takes measures to rein in the economy. The last recession in | the US ended in 2009, but the central bankers treated it as a | crisis until... until it became a different crisis. | nerdjon wrote: | I feel bad for the employees. | | Does anyone... actually like CircleCI? | | Last time I used it, it just felt way too opinionated. Then they | introduced their way of standardizing jobs with templates or | something (it has been a while) and for some reason made the | decision that any templates had to be public instead of private | for the first version (which was completely backwards). | | Personally for me I always lean towards Jenkins just because I | can do whatever I want with it. But baring that I feel like I | would end up either going with something my git hosted provides | (like GitHub actions) or something my cloud provider has (like | AWS CodeBuild). | | Is there something I am missing? Looking at the pricing it isn't | exactly cheap either. | [deleted] | timtom39 wrote: | I used to love CircleCI then they broke all my CI jobs when | they deprecated their "Convenience image". Rather than continue | to maintain CircleCI jobs and pay them for the pleasure I am | just migrating to GH actions. It is painful. They have good | lock in. | brianwawok wrote: | No not really. | | I think it is one of the few providers that offers Apple | runners. Not much else besides that. We switched to self hosted | teamcity and 1/3 our build time with a 6 month payback. | ch4s3 wrote: | > Last time I used it, it just felt way too opinionated. | | That's exactly what I like about it. | ftlio wrote: | > Does anyone... actually like CircleCI? | | It's a weird feeling where they once felt like a reprieve from | all the PITA "enterprise" stuff, but now they're that PITA | kinda-poorly-minded "SaaS" stuff, which sucks compared to... a | Microsoft product? | | It's kinda obvious in retrospect. Enterprise became SaaS faster | than SaaS could become enterprise. | icedchai wrote: | I set up CircleCI at a previous company because it was "easy" | and neither GitHub Actions nor AWS CodeBuild existed yet. | Eventually, we outgrew it (memory issues, I think?) and set up | our own Jenkins instance. This would've been back in 2016, so | I'm sure it's better now. | vander_elst wrote: | Best of luck to all impacted employees! | | The terms seem above average, I hope something like this will | become the standard. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-12-07 23:01 UTC)