[HN Gopher] Lionel Messi Is Impossible (2014)
___________________________________________________________________
Lionel Messi Is Impossible (2014)
Author : wallflower
Score : 277 points
Date : 2022-12-18 15:07 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (fivethirtyeight.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (fivethirtyeight.com)
| smhg wrote:
| When I navigate back to HN after reading the article, I get a
| page 'more stories before you go'. At least the first time I
| opened the link.
|
| How is 538 able to intercept my navigation away from their page?
| xwdv wrote:
| JavaScript
| MrPatan wrote:
| JavaScript doesn't make websites shitty, people make websites
| shitty.
| noirbot wrote:
| Sure, but the question was "how do they do this" not "why
| would they do this"
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| Specifically, in Javascript you can superficially push a
| navigated state into the location stack so that when the user
| presses the back button, it is now the inserted page instead of
| the "actual" one. Most FE devs consider this a dark pattern and
| refuse to implement it.
|
| That said, it's basically just the front end's version of a
| redirect. Unfortunately it's been used a lot especially by
| malware sites to basically jail people into their site.
| fyzix wrote:
| I think google should factor this in pagerankings. Might be the
| only thing that can force change
| rvr_ wrote:
| https://www.w3schools.com/jsref/event_onbeforeunload.asp
| graderjs wrote:
| No, it wouldn't be that. That can only prevent unload if it
| throws a native modal up (cousin of alert, confirm, prompt,
| etc).
|
| I think what they must have done is push some URL to the
| history state, using the History API, to fuck with the back
| and forward buttons, enabling them to intercept when you
| navigate back, by having added an additional page in there,
| that you never visited, but that they can use to serve you
| this interstitial.
|
| Just my 2c
| smhg wrote:
| I'm baffled any half decent site would use that. I expected
| some kind of new web/Chrome API.
|
| That's a very "bold" choice of 538 if you ask me.
| usmannk wrote:
| It's not that, they're pushing the "before you go" page to
| the history stack. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
| US/docs/Web/API/History/pus...
|
| You can see it if you right click the back button after
| navigating to the article.
| kmonsen wrote:
| I feel like every site is doing it these days. Wonder if
| browsers should start blocking it.
| balaji1 wrote:
| who else is here at half time?
| Darmody wrote:
| I stopped watching it after the penalty.
|
| This is not football, it's geopolitics.
| xenospn wrote:
| Did geopolitics make France not kick a single ball at the
| goal for 70 minutes?
| Darmody wrote:
| No, it's because they play like crap.
|
| I'm not defending France or anything. I dislike both teams,
| my team got eliminated a while ago.
|
| But take a look at Argentina - Croatia. Argentina was way
| superior after the first 20 min or so, but Croatia was
| still holding. After the penalty Croatia was no longer
| playing football. When Argentina scored the second goal the
| defense was scared of even approaching the ball. A penalty
| in a tournament like this can kill the morale easily.
| phlakaton wrote:
| I think you are mistaking hard physical play with
| geopolitics. An understandable mistake! They look so
| similar. ;-)
| barrenko wrote:
| This happened all the time with Barcelona and Messi in
| the "golden" years. He's still a great player, but...
| ither should be allowed to play against fairly.
| cryptonector wrote:
| There needs to be a better way to deal with fouls "in the
| area".
| amelius wrote:
| > This is not football, it's geopolitics.
|
| I often compare it to medicine, where a football match is a
| drug that is tested with a randomized controlled trial with
| N=1.
|
| If football matches had a p-value for "the best team won", it
| would be abominable.
| pelasaco wrote:
| I'm not sure if you are french or german, but both teams,
| together with netherlands, were those that profit at most
| from geopolitics in football.
| Darmody wrote:
| I'm neither of those.
|
| Also I'm talking about Qatar here, not Argentina or France.
| subpixel wrote:
| I felt the penalty was a gift from the sponsors but kept
| watching. France almost overcame that thumb on the scales,
| and I'm glad I didn't tune out.
|
| Still, it's an egregious shame and it tarnishes the win.
| whoevercares wrote:
| Geopolitics that is in favor of Argentina?? That does not
| make any sense.
|
| I would buy that story if it were for China - look at all the
| ads and they even built the stadium. Too fantasy though since
| China men's soccer team is a total joke
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| FIFA very possibly wants Argentina to win, not for
| geopolitical reasons but to sell the Messi legend more.
| [deleted]
| balaji1 wrote:
| Yes. Maybe there is greater commercial value of a Messi +
| Argentina win. But then now (at 81'), it seems they
| haven't made up their mind. 2-2.
| cryptonector wrote:
| The longer people watch the game, the better, no?
| galgot wrote:
| It's not about France or Argentina. It's about the PSG, a
| club owned by Qatar (buye... ahem... host of the world
| cup), where both Messi and Mbappe plays.
| Darmody wrote:
| More in favour of Qatar.
|
| They spend 10 times more than the other countries to host
| the world cup. They want it to be a big hit. That's why
| FIFA has been saying that this is the best wold cup ever
| and bla bla bla.
| whoevercares wrote:
| Ok that looks like game gambling and manipulation much
| more than geopolitics. Not surprised if Qatar has a fair
| share there
| Darmody wrote:
| It's Qatar playing geopolitics. They didn't spend $200+
| billion because they love football.
|
| They want something big to show the world. What better
| than having one of the best players ever win a world cup
| before retiring?
|
| That's how I see it.
| phlakaton wrote:
| One of the best players in the game was going to win no
| matter which side won. This looked like a pretty fairly-
| called contest to me.
|
| But hey, even a 7-1 beatdown of the favorites can make
| for a memorable and entertaining World Cup.
| NhanH wrote:
| In 2018 there was 29 penalties in total. This year there is
| 17 penalties during the matches (including the final so
| far), with Argentina getting 5 out of 17.
|
| It is unusual enough to let people wonder.
| kaesar14 wrote:
| Doesn't seem unusual that a top team would get more
| penalties
| balaji1 wrote:
| True. And reckless challenges seem to be going up in
| general.
|
| Did someone count the number of cards and penalties
| against Arsenal last season?
| koolba wrote:
| That's meaningless without a denominator. All other
| things being equal, the team with more time spent in the
| opponents box would be expected to have more penalty
| kicks.
|
| EDIT: And just as I write this France draws a penalty!
| NhanH wrote:
| I have no horse in this fight, just wanted to point out a
| curious fact.
|
| That said, the denominator/ top team argument only holds
| if Argentina was the most dominant team in the cup by a
| landslide (considering the ratio of the total penalties).
| They weren't, they performed mostly in the same pack of
| France/England/ Portugal. Brazil would be the only team
| that was blatantly more dominant. Another denominator
| could potentially be number of foul against, and I would
| be surprised if it is that lopsided.
| whoevercares wrote:
| What the hell!!!! It's a draw now
| arrrg wrote:
| FIFA has a product that is a glittering diamond for ascending
| or old (authoritarian) regimes irrespective of whether FIFA
| exerts any influence on the content itself (the games). That
| just doesn't matter and also isn't necessary so why should
| they even try to touch that? Makes no rational sense.
|
| FIFA's job is to get the teams that make the glittering
| diamond to play in the WC without too much fuss and without
| making any problems. In that context doing shady shit on the
| playfield would even be counterproductive.
|
| If all (important) national teams feel like the games
| themselves are fair and that they are heard when there are
| problems on the playfield then at least that's not an
| additional area of conflict.
|
| For that reason I think it's extremely unlikely for
| corruption to actually extend to the playfield. It's just no
| needed and even counterproductive. I think that might
| actually be the thing that actually breaks FIFA's power, so I
| would think that they don't touch it.
| cbrozefsky wrote:
| Dembele is one of my favorites, but when you get beat like he
| did and then tangle legs from behind, that is going to get
| called every time.
| pelasaco wrote:
| this second penalty was - however - a mistake.
| Darmody wrote:
| You can watch the replay as many times as you want and you
| won't see Dembele touching Di Maria until he's already on
| the floor.
| kaesar14 wrote:
| And yet France just got away with a blatant handball.
| Geopolitics indeed.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| You talking about the one that was way outside the box
| and going out of bounds anyway?
| kaesar14 wrote:
| France lost with two penalties given. Get over it.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| I mean, they've won twice in my lifetime and I watched
| both. It's ok. Just trying to figure out what you were
| watching?
| larksimian wrote:
| He touches his back foot while Di Maria is still running.
| BBC commentators all also agreed it was a clear pen(and
| I'm romanian just to dispel political bias hopefully).
|
| Di Maria just destroyed that flank this game.
| mrtksn wrote:
| The Argentina penalty or the France penalty?
| balaji1 wrote:
| @Darmody, if only you had used a word like "commerce" or
| "business" instead of "geopolitics". This match and WC seems
| like good business. Also I'm not entertained but that was
| their intention I guess.
| Darmody wrote:
| It's business for FIFA, geopolitics for Qatar.
|
| This is the money spent on the last world cups.
|
| QAT (2022) US$229 billion[1]
|
| RUS (2018) US$16 billion[2]
|
| BRA (2014) US$19.7 billion[3]
|
| RSA (2010) US$7.2 billion[4]
|
| GER (2006) US$4.9(EUR3.7) billion[5]
|
| KOR/ JPN (2002) US$7 billion[6]
|
| FRA (1998) US$2.33 billion[7]
|
| USA (1994) US$500.00 million[8]
|
| ITA (1990) US$4 billion[9]
|
| Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_the_FIFA
| _World_Cu...
| chrisweekly wrote:
| WOW!! That is extraordinary. I had no idea. Curious what
| 2026 will look like.
| peregren wrote:
| Can you explain the relationship between the penalty and
| geopolitics?
| sanman811 wrote:
| Might want to start rewatching. Geopolitics be darned
| pelasaco wrote:
| now better stop to watch it again.. Argentinian geopolitics
| at full power here :)
| mellosouls wrote:
| checking in
| susrev wrote:
| yup!
| nodra wrote:
| Here to watch the Argentinian flop fest
| nkzd wrote:
| Haha, right here!
| xenospn wrote:
| So exciting!
| hamparawa wrote:
| hello!
| benrmatthews wrote:
| Hola!
| mromanuk wrote:
| Me!
| samwillis wrote:
| This was submitted at the start of the match, but didn't get
| any comments till half time, quite telling. (currently 13
| comments 10min into half time)
|
| I wander what a vote count over time graph looks like for this
| post. I assume everyone is going to disappear again in 5 min.
|
| (also here during half time)
|
| Edit: 20 comments at second half kick off.
| maguirre wrote:
| Looking for a dopamine hit :)
| mromanuk wrote:
| I was trying to clear my mind from the match, but the world
| clip and our hero Messi is everywhere, even in HN
| pelasaco wrote:
| Me! Looks like this comment from Mbappe will age like Milk
| https://twitter.com/espnfc/status/1529214154015395842?lang=e...
|
| EDIT: OR maybe not LOL.. France is just physically too
| strong... Technically? Meh.
| ianmcgowan wrote:
| Aged like milk indeed :-)
| pelasaco wrote:
| Not sure, what I should write here now, LOL.. let me wait
| 10 more minutes :)
| samwillis wrote:
| Not looking that clear cut now...
| pookah wrote:
| Haven't watched soccer in 20 years. Watched two teams in Europe
| kick a ball mid field for what felt like four hours.
|
| Thank god for Patrick Mahomes...
| bandyaboot wrote:
| It would be immensely fun as a layperson to go up against Messi
| just to see how many seconds of trying to separate the ball from
| his possession I could go before I've tripped over my own feet
| and am laughing hysterically at the sheer magic of what he's able
| to do.
| faitswulff wrote:
| I think it would be more fun to match him against an entire
| team of laypeople. Any single individual wouldn't even be able
| to see him.
| rvba wrote:
| Since every Messi thread somehow ends up with Ronaldo, there
| is a video where Ronaldo is "smurfing" disguised with a fake
| beard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68E53lcUIKE The video
| is not really that interesting.
|
| As for "entire team playing against a team of laypeople" - I
| would like to see something like this too. Best we can have
| is probably the match between American Samoa and Australia
| that ended 0-31
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wg9ox9F7Vw
| xcambar wrote:
| Messi or any other pro player doesn't really make a difference
| if it's against the average person.
|
| Average Joe/Jane just doesn't get to touch the ball. Period.
| elorant wrote:
| I used to play semi pro volleyball in late puberty. We had a
| quite nice school team and we were second in regional
| championship which was taking place in the largest city of the
| country. One day while we were having a workout a friend of our
| coach showed up who was playing in the national team so we
| asked him to participate. Dude was willing to do so and from
| the way he played it was obvious he wasn't really trying. So at
| one point he's on the offensive and I jump to block him which I
| did. The one thing I remember even three decades later is just
| how much my palms hurt. Both my hands had gone numb. There was
| a lot of cheer and he came alongside to congratulate me, but
| all I was thinking at the moment was fuck this hurts so much. I
| can't even imagine how it would feel had he gone full force
| while hitting the ball, although I seriously doubt I could have
| blocked it if he did.
|
| A layman person can't realize how vast the gap is between
| him/her and a pro player, let alone elite players. My guess is
| that you wouldn't even have the time to react because he's so
| agile he can change direction in a fraction of a second. You
| wouldn't trip and fall, you'd simply stood still and by the
| time you'd register what happened he'd be ten feet behind you.
| permo-w wrote:
| on top of this the fact that football has an order of
| magnitude larger talent pool than volleyball
| didip wrote:
| He did it. He won. The ultimate GOAT! He finally got it before
| retirement!
|
| I will remember this game for a long time. The dramatic twists
| and turns are so memorable.
| soheil wrote:
| Better believe it!!
| divbzero wrote:
| Related:
|
| _An analysis of Lionel Messi_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7972815 - July 2014 (129
| comments)
| quirino wrote:
| There's a subreddit called r/toprightmessi which is a collection
| of graphs showing how much Messi excels in so many respects.
| Crazy how in the biggest sport in the world there can be a player
| so far above and beyond the rest.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| Is there anyone else in the sporting world that's such a
| statistical outlier?
| amenghra wrote:
| Most athletes who are at the top of their sport when they
| reach age ~40 tend to be crazy outliers. I'm thinking Michael
| Schumacher (F1), Tom Brady (NFL), Roger Federer (tennis),
| etc.
| walthamstow wrote:
| They are outliers because it's a brand new phenomenon. This
| generation has the first sportsmen to push 40 in a lot of
| sports, beit Federer, James Anderson, Brady, Ibrahimovic.
| It will become quite common as time goes on I expect.
|
| p.s. Schumacher drove a car, so I'm not sure he is a fair
| comparison to physical sportsmen
| Daneel_ wrote:
| Your postscript is a bit unfair to racing drivers - it's
| actually an incredibly physically demanding sport.
| shakesbeard wrote:
| Don Bradman in Cricket.
|
| Apparently, a good batting average for a modern-day batsman
| is 40+ with those above 50 being exceptional. Bradman's
| average was 99.94. The second highest average of all time is
| 60.97.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Bradman
| nl wrote:
| It's difficult to emphasize what a complete statistical
| outlier Bradman is.
|
| As the parent poster points out, the next highest average
| is in the low 60s (actually 61.87 now[1]). Looking at the
| stats though, we see averages are roughly a normal curve,
| centered on 40 with a standard deviation of a little over
| 9[2]. This puts Bradman _over 6 standard deviations_ above
| average!
|
| [1] https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/28291
| 0.htm...
|
| [2] https://www.significancemagazine.com/sports/24-did-don-
| bradm...
| lordnacho wrote:
| Gretzky is even more insane. Fun facts:
|
| If you don't count his goals, he still has more points than
| the next guy. Points are goals plus assists.
|
| Something like 15 of the best 20 seasons in history by points
| are him.
|
| Player of the year every year for a decade.
|
| The only thing that makes it look less spectacular is that
| ice hockey is not the world's favourite sport.
|
| Messi is the goat of a game that is massively popular on
| every continent, that you can find people playing in a park
| in almost every city.
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| Wayne Gretzky!
| Gunnerhead wrote:
| Definitely Gretzky!
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| Alternatively, is it due to the ubiquity of soccer that
| particularly gifted individuals can be developed into their
| full potential? Someone that has a one-in-a-billion level of
| skill in something like frisbee-golf is less likely to be
| spotted and made into a professional player.
| browningstreet wrote:
| As a fan of disc golf I pained and laughed at "frisbee-golf".
| The distribution of talent and accomplishment in professional
| disc golf .. a relatively young sport .. wouldn't surprise
| anyone here.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| Apologies for any discomfort - I clearly should have put
| "disc golf".
| derbOac wrote:
| This is the weird thing for me about some of these
| discussions. I'm not going to question Messi's ability or
| ability in general but I've always wondered how much
| "extraindividual" factors start to play a role in those upper
| tails that are incentivized. We talk about Messi like he's
| just a marble sculpture handed down from God but that's not
| the case.
|
| Looking at the figure, for example, one thing I noticed was
| the gap between the two upper points and the rest. It's hard
| for me to imagine there aren't some missing points there.
|
| In other fields or areas, I think you have to start asking
| about things like fraud, other vice, or circumstances.
|
| As you suggest, there's probably also some unique things
| about international football that make it difficult to
| generalize to other things. Everything is probably a little
| unique in certain ways really, but the incentives are so
| extreme and the play is very visible.
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| One thing to note is that the stats in the article don't
| appear to be normalized to me. It's just a lot of "# of X
| since 2010". So, it makes sense that the best will be
| played more often and get more play time to help drive the
| separation greater.
| Jenk wrote:
| This is so true when looking at the distribution of top
| olympic athletes Vs distribution of countries that invest in
| developing said athletes in their chosen sport.
| derbOac wrote:
| Do you know of any sites offhand that discuss this? I can
| look it up but wasn't sure if there were some you'd
| recommend. The thing you're mentioning seems really
| important as an example in these kinds of discussions.
| emmelaich wrote:
| And yet Mbappe is better paid - most valuable in the world it
| is thought.
|
| And his WC Final rival and PSG team mate.
| jacquesm wrote:
| If you were to define some new sport from scratch tomorrow
| morning by the end of the afternoon the Bell curve would start
| to assert itself in those that chose to play in it and over
| time that would become more and more evident. Eventually a
| 'Messi' would turn up.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| You say bell curve, which I understand as meaning normally
| distributed, but the point about Messi is that he is better
| than what one would expect to find from normally distributed
| ability.
|
| I think it is interesting to ask why Messi is such an
| outlier. But maybe you think the fact that _someone_ has to
| be best makes it all uninteresting.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I think that effect comes from soccer being somewhat multi-
| dimensional: the ability to run fast, aim well, have
| stamina and so on.
|
| And yes, I think that the fact that someone _will_ be the
| best makes it uninteresting, or at least a lot less
| interesting than if a skill could be universally taught to
| the point where everybody would be very good at it and it
| would be productive.
|
| Professional sports is roughly at the same level of
| interest to me as a circus.
| OscarCunningham wrote:
| With fat-tailed distributions, increasing the sample size
| actually makes it more likely that you'll get one element much
| greater than the others.
| SmooL wrote:
| Yes, but if you have many fat tailed distributions,
| increasing the sample size makes it increasingly less likely
| that it's _the same person at the end each time_
| OscarCunningham wrote:
| This would imply that there's a single factor upstream
| leading to his exceptional ability in several measures
| downstream.
| cryptonector wrote:
| https://medium.com/@casciari/messi-is-a-dog-18b8f32766c8
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDsztJOgqUg
|
| TL;DR / TL;DW: Messi is a dog. The ball is _his_.
| jonahx wrote:
| Isn't the surprising part that it's fat-tailed rather than
| normal?
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| keep in mind that even if football ability were
| (untrainable and) normally distributed, the distribution of
| ability among international players would be taken from one
| of the tails of that bell.
| jonahx wrote:
| Also a good point. Do you know what the exact
| distribution would be when sampling randomly and
| rejecting all values below some threshold? You can tell
| it would at least be Pereto-ish in general shape.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| I can't do much with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trunca
| ted_normal_distribution but maybe you can?
| eloff wrote:
| Why would it be? All careers with leverage seem to follow a
| Pareto distribution. It would surprise me if any sport,
| art, or creative endeavor was normally distributed.
| jonahx wrote:
| You're right. I was thinking the "initial talent" might
| be normal in the way IQ scores are, but the parent was
| talking about actual performance, where history,
| training, etc all come into play.
|
| And empirically, you have Gretzky in hockey, Jordan in
| basketball....
| eloff wrote:
| I don't even think initial talent is normally
| distributed. Take Usain Bolt, for example, he'd be a far
| outlier in a Pareto distribution for sprinters just on
| the basis of his natural heritage.
| hgsgm wrote:
| OscarCunningham wrote:
| IQ is normally distributed because it's graded on a curve
| to make that true by definition. I'm not sure how it's
| distributed on any sort of 'natural' scale.
| derbOac wrote:
| No, it's scaled but linearly and not redistributed.
|
| There's still studies of relatively raw distributions and
| it still looks normal. The biggest deviations from
| normality are due to an excess mass in the lower range
| due to disease, and a tendency for scores to spike a tiny
| bit at certain numbers, probably due to people
| administering the test fudging a bit sometimes for
| various reasons.
| jacquesm wrote:
| What would such a natural scale look like?
| derefr wrote:
| Maybe a cross-species IQ score would be interesting.
| Chimpanzees and corvids both can solve many IQ-test
| problems, but also are not experiencing the Flynn effect
| as far as we know. So we could measure IQ in multiples of
| a chimp's IQ, just like we measure cars in multiple's of
| a workhorse's sustainable pulling output. (Which is
| actually a _less_ objective measure, when you think about
| it; we were breeding workhorses to increase that very
| target at the time the concept of "horsepower" was
| invented!)
| jacquesm wrote:
| That would be a great start. And it would also force us
| to acknowledge that a lot of the things that we are doing
| with these animals are utterly un-ethical.
| OscarCunningham wrote:
| I'm reminded of the paper 'Measuring universal
| intelligence: Towards an anytime intelligence test' https
| ://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000437021..
| ..
| jacquesm wrote:
| Thank you for the pointer.
| derefr wrote:
| I suppose the distribution of aptitude would be a normal
| distribution in a world where careers were assigned
| randomly at birth and advancing in your career was on a
| strict seniority basis. So, for example, you'd see it in
| career paths that are mostly followed as generational
| family businesses.
| TreeRingCounter wrote:
| This sounds like nonsense. We're talking about multivariate
| distributions, and you haven't defined a norm by which
| ordinal comparisons can be made between sample points.
| brewmarche wrote:
| All norms on finite-dimensional vector spaces are
| equivalent so the choice of norm shouldn't matter for tails
| really.
| hgsgm wrote:
| shkkmo wrote:
| He's impossible, but not winning the golden boot anymore...
| cryptonector wrote:
| No one beats aging. But he's still amazing at 35.
| axiom92 wrote:
| Not to be a buzzkill, but being fooled by randomness is a thing
| that should at least be mentioned here. Of course Taleb has more
| to say on the matter in [1].
|
| [1] https://www.amazon.in/Fooled-Randomness-Hidden-Chance-
| Market...
| nl wrote:
| It's not obvious why you think this applies here.
|
| If statistics showing Messi is a great player were just random
| we'd expect them to regress towards the mean. It's true that as
| he ages they have a little, but if we compare him to players
| who are also his age he remains a far outlier.
|
| And even against the world's best, in the a tournament that
| matters (ie, this world cup) he ended up being the second
| highest goal scorer, second highest assist giver, highest
| chance creator and second highest dribble completer[1].
|
| So yes, I'd like to understand how randomness applies here.
|
| [1] https://www.foxsports.com/soccer/2022-fifa-world-cup/stats
| epivosism wrote:
| He has had an interesting medical journey:
| https://journeys.dartmouth.edu/marcanovicoff22/messis-medica...
| rurban wrote:
| The call him "greatest soccer player of all time", but then the
| talk about Messi, not Maradona. Lol
| whywhywhydude wrote:
| Have you actually seen Messi play?
| BeetleB wrote:
| If you compare Messi's record with Maradona's, there's not
| much to compare. The latter could have been the best of all
| time, but he sabotaged his own career.
| cryptonector wrote:
| Messi is a better player than Maradona, and also a better
| person. His humility makes him a lot more likable, what can I
| say. IMO.
| ardit33 wrote:
| Messi is actually a jerk. He purposely wanted to sink
| Lewandowski Ballon D'or nomination (which was well
| deserved) by voting for a nobody.
| smcl wrote:
| Weirdly I think Maradona's chaotic life off the pitch (and
| I suppose no shortage of controversy on it) sort of adds to
| his appeal :)
| eertami wrote:
| Maybe the bar for "good person" is set too low, if
| convicted tax frauds are considered good people.
| sweettea wrote:
| Messi's captured the hearts of the casual World Cup fan
| unlike anyone else. I don't know a whole lot about soccer --
| more or less all I know is that the World Cup happens every
| few years, is played by national teams, and Messi makes
| impossible plays. What I do know is all because of Messi,
| whose wholesome relatability and exceptional ability brings
| casual viewers like me; I generally avoid sports because the
| players are hard to relate to or have personal flaws, but I
| love Messi's strong family roots. I would propose that merely
| for being a truly exceptional face of the sport he's the
| GOAT.
|
| Maybe Maradona was that way in his day -- I'm barely aware
| that he was a good player of yesteryear -- but his drug
| problems (and the fact that his heyday was so long ago) make
| him much less relatable or exciting to investigate as a
| inspiration.
| fnord123 wrote:
| > wholesome relatability
|
| Nice one. I think this post will go over most peoples'
| heads but I had a good laugh.
| andrepd wrote:
| >Messi's captured the hearts of the casual World Cup fan
| unlike anyone else. I don't know a whole lot about soccer
|
| How on earth do you reconcile these two sentences lol x)
| qsort wrote:
| Answers to "who is the GOAT" that won't upset hardcore
| soccer fans are the exactly the following set: {Maradona,
| Pele, Cruyff}.
| Scarblac wrote:
| Nah, Messi was already part of that set for many years,
| and today he added the only thing missing in his career.
| Messi is the sole GOAT.
| cryptonector wrote:
| Messi or Pele, then the other, and only then maybe
| Maradona.
| radiator wrote:
| Ronaldo Luis Nazario de Lima
| SSJPython wrote:
| He would've been the GOAT had he stayed healthy.
| Consistency and longevity are very important in this
| debate.
| radiator wrote:
| Depends on the definition of GOAT. When he was at his
| peak, he played the best football ever played.
|
| By the way, both Maradona and Messi when previously
| asked, have answered something along the lines that that
| he was the greatest.
| kamarg wrote:
| Health issues cutting his career short ensured he won't
| be in consideration for most people. That said, he truly
| was phenomenal. Absolutely one of the most amazing to
| ever play the game.
| ardit33 wrote:
| Nah. I am C. Ronaldo fan. For many he was an inspiration as
| well. CR7 was unlucky this WC, due to his manager's poor
| decisions with the Morocco game.
| bhrgunatha wrote:
| > I'm barely aware that he was a good player of yesteryear
|
| As an English football fan, that cheered me up (it still
| hurts). I suspect no English football fan could accept
| Maradona as the greatest.
|
| Do you know about Pele?
|
| When I was a kid, it seems everyone (even non fans) knew
| Pele was the greatest.
| mayankkaizen wrote:
| I am not interested in sports but when I was in my teens,
| no other name was associated with any sport as was the
| name of Pele with football. As you said, it seemed no one
| was interested in football but everyone knew Pele was the
| god of his game.
| wslh wrote:
| Have you watch this? "Diego Maradona Goal of the Century
| | Argentina v England | 1986 FIFA World Cup" [1]
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/Da_CDPRG2j0
| cryptonector wrote:
| Lol, yeah. That game in 1986 must have hurt. One of the
| most beautiful goals of all time (which Messi has
| replicated twice), then that awful hand-of-g-d goal
| (which Messi, sadly, has also replicated twice).
| nickcox wrote:
| The second goal should also never have stood. Clear foul
| on Glenn Hoddle.
| heywhatupboys wrote:
| > then that awful hand-of-g-d goal
|
| everyone celebrates this goal. No fan has ever given him
| shit about it
| cryptonector wrote:
| I care, what can I say. I want clean futbol.
| phlakaton wrote:
| Soccer is played by gloriously messy human beings. A bit
| of schmutz now and then is not so terrible a thing.
| cryptonector wrote:
| That adds to Messi's greatness, since he's not
| "gloriously messy".
| mmplxx wrote:
| I would say that Messi is gloriously messy.
| mongol wrote:
| It was opposite order. Hand goal, then dribble.
| mgh2 wrote:
| More background:
| https://www.npr.org/2022/11/30/1139976898/messi-economics
| rvba wrote:
| When I was a kid, I always heard some Uncle claim that "rich
| people" bribe the doctors to give growth hormone to their
| children. That's why supposedly all the "rich people" children
| were tall (being well fed probably helps here)
|
| Is that real that the rich, VC types give growth hormone to
| their children?
| funnymony wrote:
| Growth hormone called food
| Aromasin wrote:
| Wow. That's an incredible read.
| jamespwilliams wrote:
| Reminds me of
| https://twitter.com/xgphilosophy/status/1604202292139491328 that
| I saw this morning
| kzrdude wrote:
| Idea for this visualization: Highlight every season for Messi
| (multiple colored points). Do the same for some other players.
| One needs to look around in data to learn more from it.
| andrea76 wrote:
| If Lionel Messi is impossible, Maradona is more than.
| chrisweekly wrote:
| Messi's faced better defensive players as the game's evolved.
| wslh wrote:
| Messi just won his first Football World Cup!
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34040277
| ReptileMan wrote:
| Perfect end to a career.
| susrev wrote:
| emmelaich wrote:
| Second if you count the u20 world cup -- in 2005.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_FIFA_World_Youth_Champion...
| TapWaterBandit wrote:
| Noone in the entire history of the planet earth does.
| heywhatupboys wrote:
| world football championship
| markdown wrote:
| Soccer Tournament.
| elorant wrote:
| Mundial
| ls15 wrote:
| Technically it is _FIFA World Cup_ , a tournament that is
| sold to the highest bidder
| googlryas wrote:
| Right, and it is country-oriented which is fairly
| arbitrary, not team-oriented as most football is played.
| It's possible the best football team in the world(probably
| the UEFA Champions League champs) could beat the winner of
| the FIFA World Cup(barring the fact that some of the same
| players may be on both teams), since the best football team
| can and does draw from many different countries.
| wslh wrote:
| You missed the basic point: it is not about the UEFA: if
| you can build a team with the best (team) players in the
| world, it would beat other teams that are based on
| nationality or specific leagues like UEFA. If Qatar wants
| they can build a better team than the UEFA ones. Hint:
| look at Barca.
| andrepd wrote:
| >If Qatar wants they can build a better team than the
| UEFA ones
|
| They definitely could not
|
| >Hint: look at Barca.
|
| What do you mean
| nl wrote:
| I think @wslh is saying the if you put the best players
| from multiple countries together (eg, if Qatar decided to
| spend unlimited money to build a club team that would be
| eligable for UEFA club competitions) that team would be
| the best.
|
| >>Hint: look at Barca.
|
| > What do you mean
|
| This is a reference to the Barcelona teams built with
| basically unlimited budgets that have dominated the
| European Cup.
|
| Of course, Qatar sort of does have a UEFA team called
| Manchester City via the state-run Qatar Airlines
| sponsorship. It has a basically unlimited budget and has
| dominated the English premier league for a while now
| (although it has struggled in European competition).
| gpderetta wrote:
| I think it is generally understand that the best football
| clubs would far stronger than the best national teams. At
| the very least club team players play and train together
| the whole year, while national teams only have a few
| weeks every couple of years.
| andrepd wrote:
| National teams play several times a year.
| umanwizard wrote:
| It's incredibly annoying how whenever someone calls the game
| "soccer", a smug European person pipes up to say that it's
| really called "football".
|
| (And yes, I've only ever seen Europeans doing this, not
| people from any of the other parts of the world where it's
| also called football).
|
| Is it really so hard for you to accept that there are
| different words for things in different countries, and that
| not all cultures are identical to your own?
| borissk wrote:
| Football is kind of a logical name for one game and pretty
| illogical for another.
|
| US should just adopt the metric system and start calling
| their sport handegg :)
| arkad wrote:
| If football rules allow all body parts except hands then
| a logical name would be Nohandball.
| silisili wrote:
| Footheadchestknee ball doesn't quite roll off the tongue
| as well, so nohandball it is.
| umanwizard wrote:
| Both games evolved from the collection of related pre-
| modern games that were all called "football", as did
| rugby, Australian football, and some others.
|
| In every English-speaking country, whichever of these
| related games is most popular is simply called
| "football".
|
| It's unclear whether the name derives from kicking the
| ball with the foot (which happens to a greater or lesser
| extent in all such games), or from the fact that they're
| played on foot (rather than e.g. on horseback).
| Archelaos wrote:
| On the etymology of "soccer": 1889,
| socca, later socker (1891), soccer (1895), originally
| university slang (with jocular formation -er (3)), from a
| shortened form of Assoc., abbreviation of association in
| Football Association (as opposed to Rugby football);
| compare rugger. An unusual method of formation, but those
| who did it perhaps shied away from making a name out of
| the first three letters of Assoc. Compare 1890s English
| schoolboy slang leccer, from lecture (n.).
|
| Source: https://www.etymonline.com/word/soccer
| philwelch wrote:
| To your point, the first college football game in the US
| was, simultaneously, the first college soccer game
| because it took place before the split between soccer and
| rugby, and the rules were those drafted by the Football
| Association in England. The rugby rules were adopted by
| Canadian colleges, who went on to play against American
| colleges, who adopted the rugby rules and added the
| initial changes that created American football.
| GeneralMayhem wrote:
| A gridiron football is still clearly a ball in function,
| even if not spherical, just like how a rugby ball is
| still called a ball.
|
| The word "football" has been used to describe games
| played without kicking for centuries. A possible
| etymology is that it means not a game played _with the
| feet_ , but a game played _on foot_. It could describe
| any of the games played by peasants, as opposed to the
| equestrian sports (racing, polo, dressage) played by
| aristocrats.
| chrisbaker98 wrote:
| > A possible etymology is that it means not a game played
| with the feet, but a game played on foot.
|
| As opposed to all those other popular ball games which
| are played sitting down?
| tromp wrote:
| The game of handball is quite popular here in the
| Netherlands, differing from football in using hands
| instead of feet.
| russellbeattie wrote:
| >= _US should just adopt the metric system_
|
| I just erased a long rant about this, because no one
| needs to read another one.
|
| But I'll summarize: Our refusal to adopt the metric
| system is really a symptom of everything that's wrong
| with the country today. I blame organized religion.
| silisili wrote:
| I think at one time, we probably went our own way because
| we were first or best.
|
| But today it just seems hardheaded. And it's not just
| metric...you have ANSI vs ISO, electrical systems, 4g and
| 5g radio bands, etc. With a world population 20 times the
| US population, I foresee a lot more companies just
| deciding it doesn't make financial sense to bother with
| the US market. We already see that with smartphones.
| unity1001 wrote:
| > I blame organized religion
|
| You have no idea how accurate and profound your statement
| is. The mid 1800s religious extremism still survives in
| the US and plagues its public discourse and institutions
| in the form of anti-intellectualism.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-
| intellectualism#United_St...
|
| The American anti-intellectualism is far stronger
| compared to all the forms of anti-intellectualism across
| the world, and its surprisingly wide-reaching - a lot of
| the anti-intellectual behaviors of the religious American
| crowd of 1850s survive today and manifest themselves in
| different forms. From opposing science to conservatism in
| silly things like the resistance to the metric system and
| more.
| gregw2 wrote:
| French intellectuals want us to divide by the number of
| fingers we have, because man is the measure of all
| things. They're also in league with mathematicians and
| some foreign Arabian number system.
|
| English engineers much prefer a 12-based system where you
| can design, construct and build easily-- dividing
| measurements by 2, 3, and 4- where practicality is
| foremost.
|
| I do think French atheism is at the root of it yes.
|
| P.S. completely trolling/kidding!
|
| P.P.S. Long before the metric system, the French were
| calling a dozen dozen "grosse". The prejudice goes long
| back and it isn't from us Angle-ophones!
| tragomaskhalos wrote:
| You can have the best of both worlds: when I'm fixing my
| daughter's curtain rail, I use mm to measure distance
| from the window frame because if I use fractions of an
| inch I'm far more likely to bugger up the maths. But if I
| want to tell someone my height, I will use feet and
| inches as those are more human-scale and convenient than
| metric. For packaging and products there seems no logical
| reason to not cite both, although the EU mandated metric-
| only
| jcul wrote:
| In Ireland we tend to call it soccer, as people use
| football to refer to Gaelic (Irish) football.
|
| I'd imagine any country with a pre-existing sport called
| "football" would tend to call it soccer.
| class4behavior wrote:
| This needs proper data because a lot of people argue the
| opposite. The other is then just called gaelic or gaa.
|
| Also, soccer was invented by the English, let the virus
| spread, then switched back to football.
| [deleted]
| talideon wrote:
| It's contextual. Whichever you mainly play, you call it
| 'football'. One of the side effects of us having three
| kinds of football!
| AlchemistCamp wrote:
| True. It's also called soccer in Australia and in Japan
| (transliterated as satsuka), too.
|
| You can't really expect people in all places to use the
| same words for things.
| elcomet wrote:
| I've seen only opposite. I live in Europe and no European
| I've talked to cares about football or soccer (and they
| tend to say "soccer" when they speak to Americans)
|
| But I've heard a lot of Americans say "no it's called
| soccer" when they heard the term football
| umanwizard wrote:
| To be fair, I rarely hear the Europeans I know in real
| life complaining about it either. It seems to be a purely
| online phenomenon.
| eatbitseveryday wrote:
| Soccer redirects to "Association football" on Wikipedia. I
| am American and I find "soccer" to be disingenuous to the
| sport, since "Football" referring to the ol' hogskin takes
| priority but is primarily an American sport.
| [deleted]
| Nux wrote:
| It's incredibly annoying to keep hearing this word,
| "soccer" is an insult, the game/sport is called "football".
| jonstewart wrote:
| Not in the USA it isn't, and this website is hosted in
| the USA and it seems likely that at least the largest
| plurality, if not majority, of readers live in the USA.
| heywhatupboys wrote:
| > and this website is hosted in the USA
|
| of all the arguments in the world this is the worst one.
| A nationalist leftover reminding us that while the
| internet has potential for global unity, someone will
| forcibly drag it down to worldly borders
| plandis wrote:
| Nothing screams international unity quite like getting
| upset some people call a game soccer in their normal
| language.
| umanwizard wrote:
| You're the one chiding people for speaking their native
| language online because it differs from yours.
| nickcox wrote:
| That's not really how the internet works.
| [deleted]
| jzoch wrote:
| I mean the british invented the word soccer to describe
| the sport. They also created the sport itself (in its
| modern iteration and rules).
| josephmosby wrote:
| The word "soccer" started in England as a slang of
| "association," which became "assocc" and then "soccer."
| Americans learned the word from the English.
|
| It may also surprise you to learn that water closets are
| called restrooms in other countries that speak English.
| [deleted]
| noduerme wrote:
| _!Coge tu futbol!_
|
| Just means "grab your football" in Spain, but means
| something completely different in Argentina ;)
| amval wrote:
| I don't think anyone would say that in Spain, as long as
| they are not having a stroke.
| permalac wrote:
| Very strong stroke.
| umanwizard wrote:
| This is similar to getting upset that in various
| countries an apple is called "pomme", "manzana", "apple",
| etc. Shouldn't we call it by the name it's called in
| whichever country it was first cultivated?
|
| In fact no, we shouldn't, because different languages and
| dialects have different words for things, and that's just
| a fact of life.
| lmm wrote:
| If you're speaking a different language, using a
| different word is fine. But if you presume to claim to be
| speaking "English", then you should use the word they use
| in England.
| andypea wrote:
| Especially as many people in the UK call the game soccer.
| For these people the term football would be used to refer
| to (Rugby) football.
| m4tthumphrey wrote:
| World Cup*
| smcl wrote:
| I think they're having a bit of fun :)
| plandis wrote:
| > Messi and his compatriots a 16 percent chance of winning the
| tournament -- second only to host nation Brazil.
|
| How it started for Brazil was certainly different from how it
| ended for Brazil in that World Cup.
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