[HN Gopher] Apple 'created decoy labor group' to derail unioniza... ___________________________________________________________________ Apple 'created decoy labor group' to derail unionization Author : LinuxBender Score : 240 points Date : 2022-12-18 18:02 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.theregister.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.theregister.com) | renewiltord wrote: | Thankfully. Labor unions have historically been xenophobic and | racist. As they have weakened they have become more inclusive. | Make them strong and they will succumb to their atavism. | | Confoederationes commercii delendae sunt | impeplague wrote: | There is something as old as unions that is not historically | xenophobic and racist? | ngoilapites wrote: | DannyBee wrote: | Their main complaint and ask here is not the "decoy group", | despite the headline. That is because they can't meaningfully | complain that apple created a non union group to hear concerns | and give employees a voice (regardless of whether it did). Such a | complaint would be hilarious. | | Instead, the main complaint is that apple held captive audience | meetings and wants the NLRB to ban them. | | As they well know, they are legal. The NLRB did ban them many | years ago, and the supreme court overturned the ban. See | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_audience_meeting | | Whatever one may think of them, it will take Congress or States | to change it, not the NLRB. Congress was very close last year on | it, too. | lsy wrote: | > That is because they can't meaningfully complain that apple | created a non union group to hear concerns and give employees a | voice (regardless of whether it did). Such a complaint would be | hilarious. | | This isn't true. Employer unions are prohibited by the NLRA, | and the linked complaint's third violation is listed as | "Creating and soliciting employees to join an employer-created | / employer-dominated labor organization as a means of stifling | Union activities." This attorney's site gives examples of when | employer-sponsored groups start to violate the NLRA's | provisions banning employer unions, which is when these groups | start to discuss working conditions: | | https://laborlaw.foxrothschild.com/2017/08/articles/general-... | | > When the employer creates and sponsors an employee group | where the discussion turns to subjects such as employee pay, | employee benefits, or even matters such as employee work | schedules, this creates a risk that the NLRB might find that | the employer has improperly created something that is the | equivalent of an employer sponsored union. | DannyBee wrote: | The case you cite was overturned by the DC circuit and sent | back to the NLRB for reconsideration a year or two ago. The | NLRB found again last month in favor of the CWA, and it will | be appealed again (and the CWA will lose again) to the DC | circuit, because it is in, fact, true. | | If the employer says "we want to hear what you think can be | better about your pay, your benefits, or your work | schedules", there is nothing illegal about this. Even if it | creates groups to do so. | | To the degree the NLRA tries to ban this, it would be struck | down as applied. Courts will construct it to focus on the | bargaining aspects of a union rather than speech aspects. | This is very clear from precedent, and in line with what | happened at the DC circuit. None of the unions have been dumb | enough to spin the wheel here because the result is obvious. | If they tried to control non-union speech-related feedback | loops, it would fair very poorly, and has so far in court. | | It is true the NLRA tries to ban company unions, but the part | most likely to stand these days, is again, effectively | "company controlled collective bargaining" (IE the company | elects representatives and only bargains with a company | controlled/elected union), etc. | | Again, i'm not stating a position of whether this is good or | not, just trying to accurately state the current legal | reality. | Zigurd wrote: | This is an Americanism. Where workers councils are used | effectively, it is alongside a unionized workforce, and these | councils are created with the union as a partner. Only in | America, where "right to work" means the right to dilute union | power, would a sham union be legalized instead of prosecuted as | a fraud. | zdragnar wrote: | Actually, isn't "right to work" is the standard for most | European countries? Forcing workers to join a particular | union as a condition of being hired (or compulsory payment of | dues without even joining) is the standard in the US but | illegal elsewhere. | svenpeter wrote: | I work at a unionized company in Germany and didn't have to | join the union or pay any dues to start working. | | Technically employees who aren't part of the union aren't | entitled to the benefits they negotiated. In reality | everyone gets the same benefits anyway because otherwise | the employer would create a huge incentive for everyone to | join the union which would make strikes hurt even more. | gtvwill wrote: | Not really sure how you got to that point. I'd say given the | way the document words it, point (1) Holding a mandatory | captive audience meeting in which its representative stated | that the Employer would refuse to bargain certain subjects if a | union was formed; and (3) Creating and soliciting employees to | join an employer-created / employer-dominated labor | organization as a means of stifling Union activities are both | equally "unfair labor practices". | | >>>"That is because they can't meaningfully complain that apple | created a non union group to hear concerns and give employees a | voice (regardless of whether it did). Such a complaint would be | hilarious." | | Why? unfair labor practices can be a whole host of things. I'm | not American but according to https://www.nlrb.gov/about- | nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/in... it would seem Apple is on | the wrong side of the law in this one arguably. I wonder if | they try this stuff in Aus? | BiteCode_dev wrote: | Funnily, if it would have been Twitter, it would have been all | the rage for a week. | | Because it's Apple, everybody will have forgotten and forgiven | tomorrow. | Macha wrote: | See also ERGs. | newaccount2021 wrote: | gjvc wrote: | Jobs' "reality distortion field" continues | jasonhansel wrote: | > In a memo issued in April, National Labor Relations Board | General Counsel Jennifer Abruzzo asked the NLRB "to find | mandatory meetings in which employees are forced to listen to | employer speech concerning the exercise of their statutory labor | rights, including captive audience meetings, a violation of the | National Labor Relations Act. | | You can read the memo here--I find its case very compelling: | https://apps.nlrb.gov/link/document.aspx/09031d458372316b | | Normally I'd say "call your congressperson," but this is in the | executive branch, so I'm not sure how to best support it. | nerdponx wrote: | Congress has the power to make laws that the Executive Branch | is responsible for enforcing. | changoplatanero wrote: | When I had a job that was represented by a union they forced us | all to listen to the union representative who came in and gave | their pro union propaganda to everyone. I was annoyed that they | didn't have anybody to present the opposite point of view. | jcampbell1 wrote: | Jennifer Abruzzo openly flouts the law of the land. It is hard to | take the NLRB seriously during her tenure. All she is doing is | halting action while we wait ages for the courts to dismiss her | theories. | onphonenow wrote: | Yeah, even as a non lawyer the nlrb findings seem out there | these days. She'll be around for a while - retread Trump is a | no go in 24 - I'll be donating heavily to dems again and I'm | confident many others will to vs having him back in charge | NaturalPhallacy wrote: | I've defended Apple on a lot of occasions, but this is | indefensible. | | The only thing worse than a bad union is no union. | sovietmudkipz wrote: | Embrace, extend, extinguish. The EEE playbook ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-12-18 23:00 UTC)