[HN Gopher] Bach's Accidental Masterpiece ___________________________________________________________________ Bach's Accidental Masterpiece Author : tintinnabula Score : 42 points Date : 2022-12-20 20:54 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.newstatesman.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.newstatesman.com) | kazinator wrote: | > _according to the musical disposition of that day, he was | generations behind it". He used forms - particularly the fugue - | that were unfashionable in the early 18th century._ | | All the music from the Bach era (1680s to 1750s) that is | emphasized today has a great deal in common with J. S. Bach. Bach | is just a cut better at it. | | Bach didn't just write fugues, and he gave them fun preludes when | he did. | | From a historic perspective, Bach's music cannot be called | anachronistic w.r.t. his period, when taken together with other | music from the period which survives. | | Hey, look, these three guys were 1685 babies: | | J.S. Bach: 1685 - 1750 | | Scarlatti: 1685 - 1757 | | Handel: 1685 - 1759 | | A little senior: | | Vivaldi: 1679 - 1741 | | Telemann: 1681 - 1767 | | Lol, everyone I can think of off the top of my head is clustered | around 1680. | | If one of them made old, unfashionable music, they all must have. | jacquesm wrote: | That music will be played and played _long_ after our societies | are dust and forgotten. | pclmulqdq wrote: | Rameau, who had a pretty different style from Bach (taking | after Couperin and the French style) was 1683. | ramesh31 wrote: | Am I alone in finding Gould intolerable? I don't have the musical | expertise to criticize him technically in depth, but I can best | describe his interpretations as "robotic" sounding. Like | listening to a player piano. | jacquesm wrote: | Gould played Bach the way it is written, perfect tempo, minimal | ornamentation, that may come across as 'robotic' to you but | it's actually the style that most people that are into baroque | favor. | | If you don't like Gould for Bach may I suggest Dinu Lipatti? | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7PNFDrcqmY | | And if you had not heard about him maybe dive a bit deeper and | see what else you like, he's an amazing pianist that | unfortunately was born before really great quality recordings | were made but what's there is well worth listening to. His | '(unfortunately)Last Recital' is a masterpiece. Enjoy! | easybake wrote: | > _Gould played Bach the way it is written, perfect tempo, | minimal ornamentation, that may come across as 'robotic' to | you but it's actually the style that most people that are | into baroque favor._ | | Indeed! These compositions were _...composed "for the profit | and use of musical youth desirous of learning, and especially | for the pastime of those already skilled in this study".[1]_, | which I don't think is directly mentioned in the article | except maybe from this quote by Gould: | | > _..."according to the musical disposition of that day, he | was generations behind it"._ | | It takes _skill_ to play these compositions the way they were | written. Piano is not my forte but what effort I have put | into learning these tunes was well worth it. | | > _If you don 't like Gould for Bach may I suggest Dinu | Lipatti?_ | | When I compare the two different performers, Gould sounds | like he's playing to a metronome and Dinu Lipatti is playing | to a pendulum. | | > And if you had not heard about him maybe dive a bit deeper | and see what else you like, he's an amazing pianist that | unfortunately was born before really great quality recordings | were made but what's there is well worth listening to. Enjoy! | | Thank you for sharing. | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Well-Tempered_Clavier | acheron wrote: | I'll put in a plug for the Netherlands Bach society's "All of | Bach" project. https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/allofbach | | Also if you have a local group that performs Bach works, they're | great to hear live. The Washington Bach Consort in DC puts on | some good performances regularly. | jacquesm wrote: | And: | | https://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/ | [deleted] | telesilla wrote: | Bach's life is so hidden from us in terms of letters from him, | but we know enough to write some pretty good biographies. My | personal favorite is Music in the Castle of Heaven, by John Eliot | Gardiner the conductor. Who knows Bach better than those who know | his music so intimately? | | https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17883941-bach | | I also recommend learning a few notes on the keyboard and playing | something of his, perhaps the first prelude of the collection | they mention in the article. It's magnificent, how he plays with | time and harmony. | diego_moita wrote: | The book is indeed good. | | For those wanting a sample of Gardiner's knowledge I'd | recommend the documentary presented by him "Bach - A Passionate | Life" | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZVn9NZqyxs | eternalban wrote: | Thinking of gifting this. Is this for adults or would you think | a budding composer aged 10 would benefit from it? | tgv wrote: | Fluff, or if you prefer: a highly circumlocutory string of half | connected sentences and paragraphs around not knowing the exact | origins of the Well-Tempered Clavier. Book 1, that is. It doesn't | even mention the second book. | ask_b123 wrote: | Might be fluff but I still got to discover the existence of | Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach. Also, the 2nd book is mentioned in | the last sentence. | jacquesm wrote: | The number of Bach family people with their own Wikipedia | page is probably some kind of record for a family that old: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family | [deleted] | devindotcom wrote: | Love the Well-Tempered Clavier! I recommend listening to the | harpsichord versions, which emphasize the individual notes and | tempo, since (IMO) these were not really meant as expressive, | emotional pieces to be interpreted liberally on pianoforte. That | doesn't mean they can't be played or enjoyed that way, but I | think the harpsichord (which Bach would have composed and played | for) is the better way to hear it first. | | So find a harpsichord version that works for you - there are | still many styles to choose from, but the works are short so you | can feel out an artist even with a 30-second preview. The very | first track, BWV 846, is an excellent litmus test. | | I've listened to the whole thing in sequence many times and the | pieces are paired (as the article notes) for actual reasons, but | now I like to put it on random and see if I can remember how | pieces go without being primed by their position. Wonderful | collection of music. | jacquesm wrote: | Harpsichord is not for everybody, listening to it for hours on | end can be quite grating. Glenn Gould has a very nice version | that seems to me to strike a nice balance between being true to | the original and using an instrument that is a bit gentler on | the ear: | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CVlBSgj0bk | olau wrote: | In my opinion, Gould had some things that worked for him, but | also some that certainly didn't. Like the link you sent, the | fact that he's staccatoing the broken chords in the first | prelude... Why? It's horrible. | | If you want something on the rigid tempo/clear notes end, I | would instead recommend this Thomas Schwan recording: | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IImakFsEHL8 | | But actually if you don't know Bach, I would start with the | gentle Andras Schiff: | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugc5FZsycAw&t=181s | | I agree with the parent that listening to harpsichord | recordings does give you something different from the piano | recordings. | | I don't agree with the expressive pianoforte part, though. As | far as I'm aware Bach never left any instructions to that | end. Also as far as I'm aware, at the time musicians were | expected to breath life into the pieces on their own, | deciding tempo, dynamics (sound volume) etc. according to | their abilities and the customs at the time. This idea of a | piece being set in stone with only one correct | interpretation, or at least only small variations allowed, | is, I think, a much later idea. You can see it start in say a | composition by Chopin that will have detailed execution | instructions, and really set in with pop songs in the past 70 | years. | | As I gather, around the time of Bach there were several | different models of both harpsichords and clavichords around | in addition to organs, all with relatively different tonal | qualities. | | If you listen to harpsichord recordings, you'll note that | they actually do customize the tempo locally (rubato) to | infuse life into the pieces: | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNQ-sUvSiV8 | | You cannot vary the dynamics quickly on a harpsichord. | | Clavichords are much more expressive, though. You can even | make a vibrato (Bebung): | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oCGNwDokT0 | | I think Bach wrote these pieces so that people, including his | own children, could play them at home, whether on a | harpsichord or clavichord or something else, and I also think | he intended the players to use their instrument to its | fullest potential. Why wouldn't he? I have a hard time | believing he wouldn't himself graduate the dynamics on a | clavichord. | | I also think that part of what makes his music ethereal is | that it actually does generalize over many instruments, even | later instruments like the modern pianoforte, but also | something like a guitar. You can find guitar players on | Youtube delivering Bach that sounds great. He was a master of | harmony. | jacquesm wrote: | There were Harpsichords with stops, much like those of an | organ to try to give it more expressive character, as well | as multi-clavier harpsichord models. | SAI_Peregrinus wrote: | Unfretted clavichord also works very well for them. IMO even | better than the harpsichord, the sound is less grating. There | are a few bits that aren't playable on the fretted clavichords | of Bach's day, but very few and it can be performed on these | (and probably was given how common they were). | | There's also an excellent performance on the organ[1]. | | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBQxfv7IZWA | lalalandland wrote: | "A camera pans down from high in a church to focus on a stone | bust of a typically ill-tempered looking Johann Sebastian Bach. | It's 1962 and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) is | making a short film about the composer, presented by the pianist | Glenn Gould. He's playing Bach's Fugue in E-flat major on the | organ, initially off-camera. He completes the short piece, | swivels round on his stool, and ad-libs the following: | | Select and enter your email address" | | I thought the Firefox Reader text was a AI piece. Haha | AlbertCory wrote: | The movie TAR opens with a music class where Prof. Tar plays the | Prelude in C for a reluctant student who says he can't relate to | Bach because he was a hetero white guy. All he can say is "You | play very well." | | I've played that, of course, since there aren't any | _conventionally_ difficult parts in it. There is something about | that piece that just gets inside you. That has to be the | definition of a really great work of art: you can 't say what, | exactly, is great about it, but somehow it's just _there._ | | I always wonder what Bach would have said about it. "Oh, yeah, | that. Just something I tossed off." | jacquesm wrote: | > I've played that, of course, since there aren't any | conventionally difficult parts in it. | | ouch. | | > "Oh, yeah, that. Just something I tossed off." | | What I wouldn't give for a couple of hours watching JS Bach at | work improvising or composing. Just concentrated listening to | all of Bach's works is a massive undertaking, it makes you | wonder how he found the time to set it all down in between all | of his other duties. | AlbertCory wrote: | > ouch | | Really? Sorry. I just meant it's nothing like Liszt or a | Chopin Ballade, i.e. unplayable for someone like me. | jacquesm wrote: | Plenty of the WTK is perfectly unplayable for someone like | me :) In fact, if I'm honest probably all of it, that won't | stop me from trying though. | AlbertCory wrote: | Same here. The C Prelude, though: that one I can do. No | chords; no eighths; no dotted notes. | | At one point in his career, Bill Evans was dissatisfied | with his playing, and spend a year or so sight-reading | the WTC. But then, he was Bill Evans. | landonxjames wrote: | https://archive.ph/Vyy7X | prvc wrote: | Many inaccuracies in this article. The Well Tempered Keyboard was | certainly a deliberate realization of a particular concept, which | makes use of several already-written preludes. Also, egregiously: | | >a system of tuning that's become standard ("well-tempered"). | Nothing in his description hints at what these short pieces | really are - deep investigations into the character of each key | | This system of tuning is obscure, and seldom-used (only | occasionally by historical enthusiasts). Possibly confused with | equal temperament here. Much less ability for the keys to have | different "characters" with equal temperament as well! | | >providing for his huge family - 20 children from two marriages | | 20 births total, yes, but never 20 children alive at the same | time, unfortunately. | | >Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach's music can be dazzling, elegant and | highly innovative, but we are unlikely to mark the 300th | anniversary of even his best piece. | | Hopefully, "we" will be more enlightened than that in the coming | few decades. | TylerE wrote: | For that matter, JS Bach himself very obscure as a composer | during his lifetime, and for 50 years none of his works were in | print... and many still weren't until the late 19th century. | | Any fame he had during his life or the period after was for his | virtuoso organ performance. | pclmulqdq wrote: | Up until the late 1800s, "Bach" referred to his son, CPE | Bach. Liszt, Chopin, and other piano virtuosi of the time | really helped revive the music of JS Bach, when a lot of his | best works were previously thought of as "too hard" or "not | worth it." | jacquesm wrote: | There is a great - and probably out of print - book called | 'Men, Women and Pianos', by Arthur Loesser, 1954. Highly | recommended to get better insight into how the piano worked | its way into society and how the various composers rose to | the spotlight and/or were forgotten again. It's the best | researched book on the subject I've read. | TylerE wrote: | Very much in print. | | https://www.amazon.com/Men-Women-Pianos-Social- | History/dp/04... | | May have to order a copy. | hrnnnnnn wrote: | You can argue that the different keys of equal temperament | don't have any special character at all, since they differ only | by fundamental frequency and the relationship between scale | degrees are exactly the same in each key. | | What character they do have may come from how accessible they | are on different instruments and the association we have with | music written on those instruments. C and G major are easy on | the guitar for example. | eternalban wrote: | > _Mozart was born six years after Bach died_ | | I love these magical moments in history. Some have it as 'the | muses' traversing the globe and inspiring humanity in the arts | and sciences. Golden ages pop up at various points in time and | place, and then the cluster of amazing talent that are typically | the greats of the respective civilization. Those few centuries in | Europe were blazing with talent. | | I think an interesting path through history of Humanity could | simply follow the golden ages, wherever they are. | motohagiography wrote: | Such timing. I'm working through one of the Preludes (C minor) | from the WTC now, but a rare guitar arrangement. There are things | about his work it takes (for me) to about the 1000th time I play | them to apprecaite, and I can see why real musicians leave his | work to later in life. Grinding through some of his less | complicated pieces is achievable for someone unschooled in it | (like me), but when you play them, you can hear and feel where | you stand as a musican, but moreso, as a being. They really are | spiritual exercises in an Aquinian sense, written for an audience | of one. That said, I also think the amount of woo musicians bring | to talking about the work is inversely proportional to their | level of ability and technique, so ymmv. I have more than one | crackpot idea about him, but in the mean time, it's just a | pleasure to puzzle through the pieces. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-12-20 23:00 UTC)