[HN Gopher] The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter
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The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter
Author : hhs
Score : 88 points
Date : 2022-12-24 19:27 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.axios.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.axios.com)
| d_watt wrote:
| Anecdotally last winter, had a Model Y up in maine for a trip
| home. I arrived at a backwoods house with ~60 miles left. It was
| around 10 farenheit the next day when I hooked up a 110 volt line
| to the car. Over the next 30 minutes the mileage dropped to 55 as
| it took more energy to heat the battery than the line could
| deliver.
|
| I unhooked it and planned to drive 20 miles to the nearest
| charger, but after 1 mile of travel, it had dropped to 40 miles
| left. I turned around and drove back, now with ~20 miles left.
|
| I parked the car in an unheated garage and plugged it back in,
| praying that the car would heat the garage to the point it could
| start charging. Maybe 2-3 hours later it started to take a
| charge, and 3 days later it was up to 150 miles, and I drove it
| to a super charger.
|
| I realized after that, if I ever moved back to Maine and wanted a
| tesla I
|
| - would need a heated garage
|
| - I could never expect to leave my car overnight at a friends /
| trip during the winter.
| justahuman74 wrote:
| The 115v lines just arent enough, it may have been quite ok
| using a 240v though (from say a dryer plug)
| simfree wrote:
| OP should have gone by percentage of battery left, and just
| left the car plugged in.
|
| Not plugging in when arriving and letting the battery freeze
| (cold soak) overnight, unplugging after 30 minutes of 1.5kW
| level 1 charging and basing his entire decisions on what the
| car's guess-o-meter says for remaining milage is pretty crazy
| IMO.
|
| Seems like OP chose to do the worst thing possible at each
| juncture to ensure a bad charging experience.
|
| It is normal for cars to use 2 or 3 kilowatts (an hour or two
| of charging) heating the battery up to temperature in
| freezing conditions, but once the pack is up to temperature
| it charges close to normal speed.
| PhasmaFelis wrote:
| If the "guess-o-meter" is so bad that it leads reasonable
| people to wildly wrong conclusions, I'm hesitant to blame
| that on the user.
|
| If all the factors you described are understood by humans,
| why aren't they factored into the display algorithm? If the
| car is going to drain battery for an hour getting warm
| before it can start to charge, then say that on the
| display.
| nradov wrote:
| It's hardly crazy to expect that the car should display an
| accurate range estimate based on the current temperature.
| jtc331 wrote:
| Gas car range predictions are also regularly nonsensical.
| I thought this was well understood.
| simfree wrote:
| People have extremely high expectations of range
| estimates. These displays are known as Guess-O-Meters for
| good reason, they only account for past weather, driving
| conditions and style.
| nradov wrote:
| Perhaps that used to be a problem. The range estimates
| for gasoline cars that I've owned and rented in the past
| few years have been accurate to within a few percent,
| even in cold weather.
| vanous wrote:
| I am all for EV, but if besides needing to take care that I
| plug my phone and my watch every night I must also not
| forget to plug in the car and if I forget, I must apologize
| at work for not coming in, or my kids cannot go to
| school... just because it easily can get to -15degC here...
| then it feels like a technology issue and not like me doing
| the worse thing possible...
| simfree wrote:
| If you plug in every night and miss a night you can
| almost certainly make it to work the next day, unless
| your a supercommuter with an older EV that had a small
| 24kWh pack.
| saturn_vk wrote:
| But that's a thing you learn. Just like you learn to
| check your oil level before starting in a conventional
| vehicle. Everything has its own set of things you have to
| know
| fshbbdssbbgdd wrote:
| I'd estimate I have driven cars 10,000 times and I have
| never done that. Just take it to a mechanic every 5k
| miles. And nothing that touches the oil has ever gone
| wrong.
| rapind wrote:
| > Just like you learn to check your oil level before
| starting in a conventional vehicle.
|
| Yeah, I (and everyone else) totally do that...
| hn_go_brrrrr wrote:
| Not even once.
| marvin wrote:
| Regular EV user here - plugging it in is something you do
| every time you park, the way you lock your doors. It
| takes five seconds. Press the <<open charge port>> button
| on the charging cable and stick it in the charging
| socket. Done.
| thinking4real wrote:
| I'm cracking up that you're making this sound so simple
| and matter of fact, but reading this description of how
| one is "supposed" to charge their EV makes me realize i'm
| many years from wanting one.
|
| Honestly, it's kind of a joke how badly people want to
| defend the tech despite its current shortcomings.
| ikiris wrote:
| Yes, plugs are very confusing. They'll offer a course in
| college for the younger generations.
| brianglick wrote:
| You wouldn't really need a heated garage (at home, anyway) if
| you had a 220 volt charger. That should be able to overcome any
| charging challenges in extreme cold, anyway. Relatively easy to
| get that into your garage.
|
| Also - if you arrive at your friend's place in the winter and
| park overnight, you won't lose a ton overnight if the car's
| just parked there.
| GalenErso wrote:
| Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about
| having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger,
| warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours
| to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my
| tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if
| it's a little chilly.
|
| The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather
| are too complex and prohibitively expensive. That 2035
| deadline is never not going to be pushed back unless the EV
| industry pulls a rabbit out of a hat.
| jchw wrote:
| All things have defined limits; Your gasoline will stop
| working at like -40 F. And while ICE vehicles have reliable
| mileage in the winter, they are absolutely prone to issues
| related to extreme weather. Also, I'm curious where you get
| the 30 requirements from, since for the most part it's
| basically just having an outlet installed. Not everyone can
| do that, sure. Not everyone can ride a bike to work,
| either. What's the point of this flippant crap?
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| The majority of the country doesn't live in an area that
| regularly gets extremely cold and even fewer people drive
| 100 miles every other day. EVs are always getting better,
| and they're already good enough for most people.
|
| I live in an area that does get below freezing, and my car
| preheats the battery before I unplug it to go somewhere
| while the cabin warms.
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| Yeah, the biggest thing EV proponents seem to miss is that
| you don't need to force it to be 100% for everyone. Confine
| any mandates to urban centers where it makes sense, you can
| get buy in from everyone and solve 95% of the problem. At
| that point there will be lower hanging fruits than the last
| 5% or w/e.
| NotYourLawyer wrote:
| Chargers are a problem for apartments in urban centers
| though.
| Gigachad wrote:
| It's not a technical problem, it's just an effort and
| cost thing. As soon as people start demanding it, the
| problem will be solved pretty quick.
|
| I've seen new developments advertising electric car
| chargers already.
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| I fully agree that not everyone needs to get an EV, there
| will be edge cases where it won't be feasible.
|
| Luckily for those people they will have millions of older
| ICE cars to choose from.
| bbarnett wrote:
| _unless the EV industry pulls a rabbit out of a hat._
|
| It's call h2, and multiple cars on the road (kia, toyota,
| hyundia) work just fine.
|
| One federal funding/grant program, and refuel stations will
| abound.
|
| And h2 is every bit as green as electric, for both can be
| supplied via green methods.
| neon_electro wrote:
| Do you just assume all EVs lose massive amounts of battery
| state of charge while unplugged? There's a reason Tesla
| vehicles lose battery while parked and unplugged; they have
| cameras and other computer systems continuing to run,
| sapping power.
|
| On the other hand, I have driven a 2018 Bolt EV for 4
| years, 48k miles, and never once had an issue with the car
| being unplugged and returning to a car with less range than
| I left it.
| camgunz wrote:
| It sounds like just 1 requirement
| Karrot_Kream wrote:
| I mean by that metric, it's hard to figure out how to
| install a dryer in your house too. It's the same circuitry.
| rtkwe wrote:
| With the difference that the dryer connections are
| usually installed when the house is built so there's easy
| access to run the wires to and from the breaker box.
| Installing them afterwards is more expensive and
| complicated to do because of the limited access.
|
| It's also not something you can expect to find anywhere
| other than at another EV owner's place. Admittedly over
| time that will become less of an issue but for now it's
| going to be pretty rare.
| tshaddox wrote:
| Right, so you're only saying that EVs are new, not that
| they're more difficult to setup than a dryer.
| rtkwe wrote:
| No for existing construction they will be more complex
| because the walls are all closed in so routing the 220V
| cable to the outside or garage is more difficult.
| Electrical is done before the walls are finished for a
| reason...
|
| Maybe not if you're lucky and the existing dryer
| connection is already in your garage but it's not going
| to be that simple for most people. Again dryer
| connections get installed at build time and have for the
| last couple decades so most people already have them.
| gambiting wrote:
| But......EVs do work in cold weather? You lose a bit of
| range, but so what? My ICE car also gets worse mileage in
| winter.
|
| And if you're talking about extremes - then there's a
| reason why block heaters with external power connections
| are _very_ common in certain places - even the best ICE
| struggles to start in -40C or less.
| letitbeirie wrote:
| At those temperatures you're up against the flash point
| of gasoline, which is already the lowest of any (liquid)
| fuel I can think of.
| simfree wrote:
| 18Mpg becomes 10Mpg or worse in the winter in my
| experience. EV driving can be more efficient if you don't
| let your battery cold soak for hours, or equally
| inefficient if you do leave your car unplugged overnight.
| midasuni wrote:
| 18mpg is 21mpg with U.K. gallons. My fairly large Skoda
| gets 45-50 in the real world, maybe dropping to 42 if I'm
| pushing it to 85mph on the motorway.
|
| Even back when I owned a mid 80s Nissan around 2000 I was
| getting 25mpg (us gallon).
|
| Why is US mileage so awful?
| simfree wrote:
| Large SUVs with overcooked engines to meet emissions
| requirements (lower PM2.5 emissions at the cost of
| slightly worse fuel economy) get bad mileage.
|
| Having all wheel drive or 4 wheel drive, high ground
| clearance, a poor aerodynamic design (driving 70mph or
| 80mph sounds bad in many of these cars) also hurts
| efficiency.
| SamBam wrote:
| 18mpg would generally be a pickup truck. You'd be hard-
| pressed to find a regular sedan that has mileage that
| bad.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| I live in place that routinely goes below freezing in
| winter. I've never noticed gas mileage change because of
| temperature. I would definitely notice a difference of 8
| MPG. Where do you get that info? Is it personal
| experience? If so, where do you live?
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| Cold air is denser. Pushing it out of the way saps more
| energy and drops the effective work done. You're
| oblivious to it because a motor vehicle has so much
| available power on tap. It is very noticeable on a
| bicycle at high speeds.
|
| Conversely. Sailboats get more efficient in cold
| temperatures because more energy is imparted on the sail.
| scott_siskind wrote:
| > It is very noticeable on a bicycle at high speeds
|
| Huh? I've been cycling for 15 years, many of those years
| doing 15k km a year, all year round. Mountain biking on
| mountains at -15C, down to urban cycling in 38-40C
| scorching summer heat. I've never noticed speed, effort,
| stamina changing with temperature as you suggest.
|
| And I've done lots of road cycling at constant 35-40km/h,
| descents of up to 70+km/h.
| simfree wrote:
| Here in the Pacific Northwest, driving both last winter
| in BC and currently in the mix of snow, freezing rain and
| slush. I'm using the same three peaks rated all season
| tires as I was using in the summer, and driving the same
| routes as well.
| gambiting wrote:
| I easily notice the difference in my car, it goes from
| about 8L/100km in summer to 10L/100km in winter. That's
| on the same tyres in both seasons.
| bch wrote:
| Driving through snow?
| gambiting wrote:
| No, just driving on the motorway, at a solid 140km/h. Did
| the exact same drive in winter and in the summer just
| this year and that was the difference in consumption(I
| want to add that I can see the difference in daily use
| too, but I just happened to do the exact same 700km drive
| where the only different factor was the season of the
| year, so it gave me a very good reference point for
| specific numbers).
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| In colder climates, it's common to have an engine block
| heater, which to some extent mitigates this. A
| significant chunk of the lost "mileage" is from cold
| starts.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| Got it. So just make sure your vehicle is constantly
| consuming energy and you'll never have an issue... unless
| the power is out for an extended period of time.
| gambiting wrote:
| You never started your car and just let it warm up before
| setting off in winter? How much energy do you think that
| uses?
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| No. That's a waste of a useful resource. It's also
| illegal in various places.
| gambiting wrote:
| Well, I envy wherever you live then, must be nice in
| winter!
| simfree wrote:
| Driving with an iced over window impairing visibility is
| illegal in most places, you have to address this with
| defrosting and perhaps scraping before moving the
| vehicle.
|
| Idling combustion vehicles is bad, but sometimes it's a
| necessary evil to ensure visibility so the driver can
| avoid harming other road users.
| simfree wrote:
| Letting the car consume a small amount of constant
| electricity to keep the battery above freezing is
| thankfully not very expensive compared to a standard
| space heater (usually 1.5kW at 720 hours a month, costing
| $150 a month in Seattle).
|
| Defrosting and toasting the cabin to 92F in freezing
| conditions usually burns about 1.2kWh to 3kWh while
| plugged in, but that is just a few tens of cents (or free
| depending on the charger) to get nearly instantly toasty
| and ready to drive.
| tshaddox wrote:
| If the power is out for an extended period of time you'll
| find gasoline hard to come by as well.
| jws wrote:
| Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin
| gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote
| highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to
| somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then
| finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure
| out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it
| from gelling but still run adequately to move you along.
|
| Sometimes we forget that we have 100 years of
| infrastructure behind our internal combustion engines and
| about 10 behind the electric vehicles.
|
| In the first 10 years of internal combustion engines, you
| bought benzene at the local apothecary and used that to
| fuel your car.
|
| Three years of EV in a more or less unheated garage and I'm
| still just charging off my 15A 120V outlet. It's fine. I
| plug in every other day or so. But you know what I don't
| do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero
| temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all.
| alphabettsy wrote:
| Diesel passenger cars aren't popular in the US, certainly
| not in the segments that compete with EVs.
|
| You're right but that doesn't change the fact that it's
| not the right time for people in certain areas or with
| certain lifestyles to have an EV.
| jiggawatts wrote:
| I heard stories about Russians in the red army setting a
| pan of fuel on fire under the engine block of their
| trucks to warm them up sufficiently to turn over and
| start.
|
| Apparently some truck models over there have a built-in
| metal tray for this purpose.
| lb1lf wrote:
| I had a Lada Niva 4WD back in the day; part of the
| winterization package was an extremely heavy sump.
|
| If you perused the manual, you found out why - it
| suggested you light a small fire under it to serve as an
| outback engine heater.
|
| The Niva was, uh, an interesting car to own, but was
| amazing whenever conditions turned to shite. Nothing
| short of an anti tank mine would stop it.
| cwalv wrote:
| > But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off
| standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and
| howling winds! Not missing that at all.
|
| Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in
| the garage will be like not having a microwave in your
| kitchen in the mid 90's.
| isityouyesitsme wrote:
| OK, 10 years behind EV. It makes sense that it is where
| it is. Please point out anywhere where anyone says the
| accomplishments are not remarkable on their own, if you
| are not comparing them to the thing with 100 years infra
| behind it.
|
| Now compare that to the seemingly endless number of
| evangelists who think that 10 years from now is a good
| time to impose a mandate to kill all new ICE vehicle
| manufacturing, in spite of EV tech being only 80 years
| (or 30 years of "modern tech hard push") behind ICE
| infra.
|
| This is how every conversation about EV goes.
|
| Person A: "look how awesome EV is!"
|
| Person B: "yeah, but it won't work for me based on where
| I live and the needs I have from a car. It seems foolish
| to push a mandate for a technology that can't be proven
| to work how the vast majority of people need it to work."
|
| Person A: "you are being unfair in your comparison!" or
| "no, you are only imagining those problems!"
| [deleted]
| hristov wrote:
| With an ICE car, if you park regularly in very cold
| weather, your car can fail randomly for an obscure reason
| and it can take a long time to figure it out or you will
| need a trip to the mechanic. Or you may need a massive and
| expensive repair.
|
| Remember that a lot of people have to spend 10-15 minutes
| warming up their cars before they drive them in cold
| weather.
|
| I do not want to go into details, better car mechanics than
| me should, but there is all kind of chaos that can happen
| if your engine freezes and you try to drive it immediately.
| And it is much more complex and can be much more expensive.
| Once you start getting cracks in various things and liquids
| flowing where they should not be you will wish for the
| simplicity of just plugging in your EV.
|
| So lets not pretend that driving in the cold is some kind
| of new problem that EVs introduced.
| olivermarks wrote:
| 'all kind of chaos that can happen if your engine freezes
| and you try to drive it immediately.' the coolant in ICE
| vehicles is called antifreeze, only an idiot would
| substitute H20 for that in cold weather, or any other
| time for that matter as it is designed to help protect
| the interior of the engine.
| alphabettsy wrote:
| > Remember that a lot of people have to spend 10-15
| minutes warming up their cars before they drive them in
| cold weather.
|
| People choose to do this. This isn't required and it's
| recommended against in modern vehicles.
|
| > I do not want to go into details, better car mechanics
| than me should, but there is all kind of chaos that can
| happen if your engine freezes and you try to drive it
| immediately.
|
| Engines do not freeze in the conditions common in most of
| the US, even with winter like we're currently having. The
| engine coolant is a mixture of anti-freeze and water.
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| > People choose to do this. This isn't required and it's
| recommended against in modern vehicles.
|
| I'm curious about that recommendation, do you know why
| that is?
| tshaddox wrote:
| But most of those "worries" are things you do upfront when
| choosing where to live or what car to get. And most of
| those worries have analogous worries for ICE vehicles if
| you're really going to be living or frequently driving in
| extreme cold temperatures or snowy/icy weather. If you live
| in the Bay Area you probably can't just take your ICE
| vehicle to Tahoe on a whim in the winter. You'll have to
| consider for a moment what car you have, what kind of tires
| are on it, and what the weather and road conditions are.
| Again, it's upfront "worrying," not some constant sense of
| dread that you can't eliminate with a bit of upfront
| consideration.
| simfree wrote:
| Charging EVs is easy and simple if you just plug in when
| arriving at a location.
|
| Doesn't matter whether it's Level 1 charging at 1.5kW
| (120v) or Level 2 at 6.8kW, or if it's -11F out, just plug
| it in and give it time to charge.
|
| Leaving your car unplugged in a frigid environment will
| cold soak the pack and cause your pack to spend an hour or
| two worth of energy heating up to temp on Level 1 charging,
| or 10 to 15 minutes on Level 2 charging. This is normal and
| you just need to leave the car plugged in.
|
| With an ICE car your heating generally takes minutes to
| heat up, versus I can have my car ready in a minute or two
| with just turning on the heat to melt off the quarter inch
| of ice build up on my windshield and windows.
| rtkwe wrote:
| Check their post again their car lost loads of charge over a
| very short range because of the cold so in effect it was
| losing range overnight. It lost 15 miles over 1 mile of
| driving and another ~15-20 on the next mile driving back.
| MBCook wrote:
| But it was on level one charging (110v). A level two
| charger, even a slow one, should be able provide enough
| current to heat the battery and still charge the battery at
| the same time.
| rtkwe wrote:
| Most of the time if you're not at your own home you'll be
| on 110V chargers. To get 220V charging at someone else's
| you're likely either at another EV owners house who's
| gone through the trouble of installing a 220V port or
| you're lucky and they have a conveniently placed dryer in
| the garage you can steal 220V power from.
| jackmott wrote:
| You only need a 220volt plug, then its fine.
|
| You can also leave it overnight just fine. I think plugging a
| 110v during the cold is kind of an edge case, the car tries to
| charge but it makes thing worse. Maybe a software update would
| cure that.
| cwalv wrote:
| > I think plugging a 110v during the cold is kind of an edge
| case, the car tries to charge but it makes thing worse
|
| I doubt if it could make things worse, despite what the range
| indicator says.
| Phlarp wrote:
| If it's cold enough a Tesla plugged into 120v/20a charging
| circuit will actually lose voltage over time. It's consuming
| over 2000 watts just to keep the battery at an acceptable temp
| for the chemistry to function.
|
| The weight of the battery pack is great for traction in warm /
| dry conditions, but when driving on ice that weight is just
| momentum sending you sliding into snow banks.
|
| After a bumper or body panel gets ripped off during the
| inevitable extraction from above mentioned snow bank, expect to
| wait 6-9 months for the most basic of body work.
|
| The self driving is an absolute clown show in anything but
| perfect conditions (mounting evidence it sucks in perfect
| conditions too~)
|
| Nothing in the world excites me more than expensive nerd toys
| with electric power trains, but as a Minnesota native I'll take
| a $900 rolling trash can beater car over a top of the line
| Tesla six months out of the year. There is a very valuable
| lesson in observing the legacy auto industry existing in
| Michigan where the winters get very cold and cars need to
| perform with snow or ice on the roads. Meanwhile Tesla mostly
| engineers their cars to be good at driving from LA to SF and
| back.
| hedora wrote:
| At what temperature would it consume 2000 watts keeping the
| battery warm? Surely it uses a heat pump, so it is pumping
| 8000-4000W of heat into the battery pack. That would be a
| large steady state heat loss!
| Phlarp wrote:
| >That would be a large steady state heat loss!
|
| Yes it is. I don't have a large dataset of exact temp
| conditions and charging curves (Elon certainly does though,
| someone go ask him!) I can tell you if the outdoor temps
| are below 15F a standard outlet has negative net energy
| input.
|
| A heat pump solution would certainly be more efficient,
| knowing Tesla I can only assume it's peltier junctions.
|
| All the hype about the efficiency of an EV goes out the
| window when it's blowing 16kwh+ a day just keeping the
| battery above freezing.
| hedora wrote:
| Not all 110v chargers are equal.
|
| My BMW came with a 6/10 amp (software selectable) emergency use
| charger.
|
| I bought a 16 amp 110V charger from Amazon, and it is more than
| enough to keep up with my daily commute. (It is equivalent to
| an 8 amp 220V charge cable.)
| seattle_spring wrote:
| You could also just make sure to have a L2 charger. There's
| some guy on HN who barges into these threads and insists that
| no one ever needs an L2 charger, but after I had mine installed
| there's no way I could live without it.
| verelo wrote:
| Yeah living in Canada and having only outdoor parking, no way
| i could live without it.
|
| Also it's just cheaper: electricity is much cheaper over
| night and if i have to charge 24x7 I'm paying much more.
| ikiris wrote:
| Normal EV owners have high amp 220 plugs. A 110 20a feed is
| TERRIBLE for charging in all cases.
| labcomputer wrote:
| It's interesting that nobody in this thread has yet mentioned the
| numerous range tests showing that Teslas achieve less than EPA
| range in many "real world" (warm weather) tests.
|
| Part of the EPA methodology is to penalize EV range using either
| a fixed constant or measurements of performance at reduced
| temperatures. Because Tesla cars perform better in the cold, they
| use the measurement method when calculating EPA range.
|
| That results in the perceived under-performance of Teslas
| compared to the competition in the so-called "real world" tests.
| But when cars are tested at low ambient temperatures, we see the
| results...
| jmclnx wrote:
| I saw a similar discussion about Gas Mileage. The point was to
| allow us to compare the differences between different models
| under similar conditions, not to get real world results.
|
| Maybe EVs need more complex testing ?
| tonymet wrote:
| There are other winter issues as well. Door handles freeze, LCD
| screens fail, cameras and headlights are iced up, stability
| control fails
|
| Complex systems are convenient in ideal conditions but they
| suffer in extreme conditions.
|
| Expect more extremes winters in the coming years (as mild winter
| trends reverse).
| hinkley wrote:
| I wonder how much of this can be addressed with active versus
| passive cooling of the batteries.
|
| One of the folk tricks with cold starting regular vehicles is to
| run the radio for a little bit, in order to warm the battery up
| just a little to help with cranking the engine. If you conserve
| the waste heat in the battery banks until the batteries hit 50oC
| for instance, then they would spend less time at ambient
| temperatures once you start moving. Some of that could offset/be
| offset by the cabin heating system, if you did it right.
|
| But I think the math comes down to the question of whether
| cooling a battery to freezing reduces the potential energy in the
| battery, or just the recoverable energy. I think it's the latter,
| and if so then how much recoverable energy can you increase by
| converting a given amount of that energy into BTUs to warm the
| battery?
| jackmott wrote:
| My father in laws truck wouldn't start this winter in texas
| because the diesel froze. My EV worked great and thanks to the
| low temps the battery will be degrading a bit slower with age for
| a few days.
|
| But yes I take a 15% range hit
| guerby wrote:
| Fun test by Out of Spec Reviews on his Tesla Model 3:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-c8AUeKs5c
|
| I Deep Froze My Tesla And Immediately Plugged It Into A
| Supercharger To See What Happens.
|
| I believe Bjorn Nyland did some similar testing too a while ago.
| jeffbee wrote:
| JHC the embodied carbon of just the junk in the driveway behind
| that guy is more than the lifetime carbon footprint of a
| typical African.
| judge2020 wrote:
| This is right after some Electrify America co-produced/co-
| designed stations didn't work in the cold, with his hypothesis
| being the voltage leak detection system within the charger
| breaking and thus not allowing current to flow:
| https://youtu.be/fq0RAjJ1PKQ
| linsomniac wrote:
| TL;DR: This article is only about vehicle range WRT temp, not all
| EVs are created equal WRT range impact of cold temps. Tesla seems
| to be best, and Ford seems to be worst.
| Animats wrote:
| Looks more like a brand problem. Especially Chevy. Different
| battery technology?
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| GM (Chevy) actually excellently engineered packs for cold
| weather. But what you might be seeing here is in fact the
| result of their attention to battery longevity. The packs in
| the Volt & Bolt have a lot of systems set up to maintain
| temperatures optimal for battery lifespan (in both cold and hot
| weather); one of the things that distinguishes them from the
| lackadaisical engineering in e.g. a Nissan Leaf.
|
| Lessened range may have more to do with the system spending
| energy to keep the battery at optimal temperature.
|
| Contrary to what others are saying here, Tesla had no "head
| start" or lead. The Volt came out the same year as the Model S
| (2011/2012) and the battery pack in there (LGChem + GM) is
| extremely well engineered.
|
| (In general GM is far more cautious about many aspects of
| battery life than others. One of the reasons the Bolt has
| weaker/slower fast charging. They also have tended to focus on
| a lower segment of the market than others, too. Comparing a
| luxury vehicle Tesla against a Chevy Bolt is not exactly apples
| to apples)
| neon_electro wrote:
| And because of this cautious design, shouldn't used car
| consumers be able to better trust used Volts and Bolt E(U)Vs
| to have withstood their mileage and calendar years with
| hopefully less degradation?
| linsomniac wrote:
| I think it's largely a battery management system problem, may
| also be pack quality. I've always felt like part of Tesla's
| lead in EVs has allowed them to develop some "special sauce" in
| the form of battery management.
|
| Other manufacturers that have just started may be playing
| significant catch-up to Tesla's lead.
| Ken_At_EM wrote:
| Yeah...my Model 3 loses way more than that in the Winter...I'd
| anecdotally wager a guess at 30%.
| Tostino wrote:
| That is interesting to see the difference the manufacturers bake
| into their battery designs as far as software control goes. Tesla
| seems to quite tightly control pack charge and discharge through
| their bms, and limit things in software rather than hitting
| chemical limits of the batteries like some other manufacturers
| seem to be allowing.
| brianwawok wrote:
| It also matters who has heat pumps and who doesn't. Keeping the
| meat bags warm is a lot of energy.
| jeffrallen wrote:
| The heat pump is for the batteries. If there's some
| heating/cooling left over, it's for the meatbags.
| brianwawok wrote:
| I don't think many people are driving around in winter with
| a 30 degree cabin temp. IME meat bags get priority at all
| times except while supercharging, when the temp can go
| pretty wild while it focuses on the battery.
| jeffrallen wrote:
| I drive a Renault Zoe which has a heat pump and air-
| cooled batteries, and I can tell you that the Renault
| engineers were very protective of the battery. I've never
| had a problem with the cabin temperature, but it's clear
| that the HVAC system is sized and optimised for the
| batteries. For example, when charging cold batteries, the
| blower revs up much higher than it would ever go for the
| cabin.
| galangalalgol wrote:
| Looking back into the source article some of the more better
| performers do actually have heat pumps. It seems one of the
| mistakes is that some of them do not start heating the batter
| in advance, while others spendnpower to keep it warm while
| plugged in.
| ajross wrote:
| It's not a chemical thing, it's just temperatures. Cold
| batteries have lower cell voltage, so the current available
| drops into the non-linear ("off") range at a lower state of
| discharge than a hot battery. The energy is still there[1], you
| just can't get it out without warming it up.
|
| Teslas[2] (and a handful of other models) have heat pumps to
| warm the batteries. It's as simple as that. The same system is
| integrated with navigation too, because even on warm days
| unused/empty cells will be colder, and you want those to be
| warm when you reach the supercharger.
|
| [1] Which is to say this isn't strictly a change in "range", if
| you can drive somewhere warm you can keep going to the rated
| distance.
|
| [2] Ones built over the last three years anyway -- older ones
| didn't have this. I think Y's and all but the oldest 3's have
| heat pumps, but older S/X models might not. Something to be
| aware of when buying on the used market.
| aetherspawn wrote:
| Hitting the chemical limits of the batteries is what causes 1/
| rapid aging and 2/ catastrophic cell damage and/or short
| failure and runaway, so if what you say is true (I don't think
| it is) then the other manufacturers have implemented poor state
| of function control (SOF) and it would be a good idea to avoid.
|
| Proper SOF control is loosely required for ECE R100 which most
| manufacturers would have, but OTOH I am convinced that it's
| possible to fudge that certification.
|
| Source: battery controls engineer.
| partiallypro wrote:
| A bigger problem is that the batteries simply don't charge in the
| cold and also discharge much faster.
| linsomniac wrote:
| Range impact of cold weather does seem to be a real thing, I
| can't speak personally because I own a Tesla which has some of
| the lowest impact.
|
| Another thing to keep in mind is: Charging speeds of cold temps.
| While the Tesla seems to do great at range, charging at cold
| temps is not great. When it's below freezing, home charging can
| be tough to impossible. A few days ago (when it was merely
| "cold", before the huge cold snap hit us), I drove the car and
| then parked it to charge for the night. It charged at a rate of 1
| mile per hour. Usually it'll hit 30-40. I have it set to start
| charging at midnight, which meant that the battery cooled down
| after driving for ~6 hours, before it started charging. I could
| have started charging as soon as I got home, but then I'm in the
| 3x higher electricity pricing... I could bump that up to 9 or
| 10pm to help.
|
| This also impacts road trips. If you are traveling in freezing
| temps, definitely charge before checking into a hotel (unless the
| hotel has a charger, which is fairly rare), rather than in the
| morning. Instead of 30m charge time, it can take 60-120 minutes
| to charge at a Supercharge.
| rightbyte wrote:
| > I own a Tesla which has some of the lowest impact.
|
| I have a suspicioun those cars that seem to have no impact on
| range due to temperature just increase the deepth of discharge
| in colder weather.
|
| I.e. Tesla and Jaguar.
| hijinks wrote:
| if you garage the car it should be ok. I'm outside of Denver
| and this latest cold spell at night was -22 and my garage temp
| sensor was 52.
|
| Ya EVs aren't fun in cold areas if you don't have a garage or
| on a road trip
| brianwawok wrote:
| Are you in a garage?
|
| As long as you have 30+ amps of 240v, you are fine charging in
| winter. It will spend 5-15 minutes warning the pack (and show
| only a little charge rate) and then kick into your full charge
| rate.
|
| The only time you are screwed is in like 15-20 amp 120V, it
| takes nearly all the power to keep the battery warm so almost
| nothing left to charge. If it weren't for winter I likely would
| have kept only a 120 in my garage as that is plenty for summer
| charging at home.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| Same was true (symmetrically more it less) at summer temps
| north of Phoenix: all the power went to cool the battery
| leaving nearly uselessly slow recharge times.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| These are all excellent points. If you navigate to a
| supercharger or a compatible fast dc charger in a Tesla, the
| vehicle will heat the battery pack appropriately for faster
| charging (based on max current capability at the charger). High
| level, this is a call for ubiquitous level 2 charging
| everywhere (and intelligent battery pack management when fast
| charging is available), with enough power to both charge the
| vehicle and keep the pack warm. We're at the same stage with
| EVs as combustion vehicles were where you had to buy a can of
| petrol to fill it up, and gas stations weren't ubiquitous. Make
| Charging Infra Ubiquitous.
|
| Of course, within certain latitudes, more robust infrastructure
| is less necessary (the closer you get to the equator). Texas,
| Florida, and California have most of the US population and will
| rarely see these conditions (US centric).
| metadat wrote:
| Related discussion from 6 days ago:
|
| _Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars_
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34038582
|
| (182 points, 317 comments)
| pjkundert wrote:
| We're just still in the early days of EV maturity.
|
| I've driven in Canada for 40 years. Until modern low-viscosity
| oil capable engines -- cars were required to be plugged in to
| block heaters for hours before attempting to start, at -20C and
| lower.
|
| I didn't expect EVs to perform better than gas vehicles; why
| would I, at this level of their maturity?
|
| Diesel vehicles are even more brittle; oilfield workers simply
| don't shut off their diesel trucks for days at a time, at low
| temperatures.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Love these charts that go 'clear down to freezing'.
|
| Last winter we got _up to freezing_ maybe 5 days.
| JPKab wrote:
| I live just outside of Boulder Colorado. We just had a polar
| vortex like a huge chunk of the country did intents were 14 below
| zero fahrenheit.
|
| My Tesla model 3 actually does very well although of course there
| is a range reduction. This is one of the areas where Tesla shines
| compared to other auto manufacturers because they have always
| viewed themselves as a battery company first. There's not really
| much you can do to beat years and years of data on BMS and
| various battery conditions. Tesla's are collecting and
| transmitting data on current temperature state of the battery etc
| all the time.
|
| Things like fit and finish of body panels are something that the
| other manufacturers have decades of experience with in Tesla
| doesn't. But on batteries we are now talking about 10 years of
| data Tesla has that they don't. And the culture in the Detroit
| Auto industry isn't exactly a good one when it comes to promoting
| competent engineering management.
| olivermarks wrote:
| The recommendation is to not charge BEVs inside garages due to
| the fire risk.
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/04/tesla-f...
| greenthrow wrote:
| There's two main challenges for EVs in cold weather that cause
| extra use of energy vs warm weather; warming up the battery pack
| and warming up the cabin.
|
| ICE vehicles also run less efficiently when the engine is cold,
| so this part is roughly analogous even if there is more extra
| energy required to heat the battery pack.
|
| The main difference is that once the engine is warm, ICE vehicles
| can then heat the cabin "for free" using waste heat because an
| ICE is so incredibly inefficient. This waste heat is useless when
| it is warm but a nice bonus when it is cold. EVs must expressly
| spend energy to create warmth for the cabin.
|
| But this is also why most EV owners know to schedule your vehicle
| to warm up while it is still plugged in before you depart. One
| advantage is that you can do this in a closed garage with an EV
| and not worry about fumes.
|
| Cold weather reduces range on all vehicles, it's just more
| noticeable on EVs due to having less excess range and the
| aforementioned heating concerns.
|
| But I drove a 2014 Leaf for 8 years here in Michigan, without
| issue. That's a low range vehicle in a very cold climate. It's
| totally fine.
| mfer wrote:
| Consider a 5 year old EV with reduced battery power due to age in
| the winter. This is looking at new. Practically speaking, it gets
| worse
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| Living in a region were you need to warm up car for 5 minutes to
| stop it being an unwelcoming block of ice, and experiencing
| frequent failures to get the starter running due to discharged
| battery due to cold, I always wondered how much cold affects
| battery performance and his much the heating costs in miles.
| Tesla's figures look unbelievably good, and I think they don't
| account for heating. In -20deg you'd need at least 1-2 kWt heater
| to not freeze, so heating alone would take 5-10% of total energy
| consumption.
| gocartStatue wrote:
| Luckily the engines still generate plenty of heat and EVs use
| modern heat pumps.
| rcarr wrote:
| There's a long distance motorcycle travel series with Ewan
| McGregor and Charlie Boorman called "Long Way Up" where they go
| from the bottom of South America to LA on electric motorcycles.
| They had a lot issues with both range and charging the motorbikes
| in the first few episodes when they were dealing with the cold
| winter climate in Tierra del Fuego. Once they got far enough
| north into warmer climates the bikes were charging a lot quicker
| and getting a lot more range.
|
| Either someone is going to have to come up with an ingenious
| solution or electric vehicles are going to be of limited use in
| cold weather locations where space is not abundant enough for
| garages (quite a lot of European cities). Infrared heating seems
| quite efficient, maybe the solution lies there.
|
| Based on the article, that Tesla is looking pretty impressive
| though!
| orangepurple wrote:
| WarpedPerception solved this problem by installing a 400cc
| generator in his Tesla that ran continuously on his 1800 mile
| road trip
| bitwize wrote:
| Tesla hybrid mod. Neat!
| blamazon wrote:
| Given the exhaust noise, I would put some quotation marks on
| "solved":
|
| https://youtu.be/hHhf223jGIE
| thrashh wrote:
| Hopefully we discover a new battery chemistry
|
| We seem to stumble on new chemistries that get to production
| every few decades so cross your fingers
| api wrote:
| Or just more range. If you have 350 miles of range and it
| drops to 300 in the winter that's not noticeable for 99% of
| drivers.
|
| We have a 220 mile Nissan Leaf that drops to 180-200 in the
| winter. We also live in Cincinnati which is a metro area
| about 75 miles in diameter at the widest span. Most drives
| are 10-30 miles. The range drop doesn't matter unless you are
| doing a road trip.
|
| Recharge time does matter more but any drop there due to
| slower chemistry is somewhat offset by less thermal down-
| ramping since everything is cold.
|
| What we need most of all is more fast chargers between
| cities. There are enough in California and several other
| coastal states but nowhere near enough between cities in the
| US interior.
|
| For some reason they put a bunch of DC chargers in the city
| and none between which is the inverse of what you really
| need. Is there a grid capacity problem in small midwestern
| towns or did they just get the priority wrong?
| bsder wrote:
| > For some reason they put a bunch of DC chargers in the
| city and none between which is the inverse of what you
| really need. Is there a grid capacity problem in small
| midwestern towns or did they just get the priority wrong?
|
| Likely ROI--Return on Investment. You can predict quite
| well the usage of chargers in cities from other charger
| installations. In between, not so much. On my latest trip
| between San Diego and Austin, the fast-charging stops were
| almost completely empty. This is in constrast to the
| summer, for example, where most of the fast charging was
| completely full and not a small amount were broken.
|
| People have forgotten that gas stations at every
| convenience store is a relatively new thing in the US
| (starting about the mid 80s). Prior to that, part of the
| advantage of the Turnpikes and major interstates were
| regular gasoline station placements. And that happened
| because the governments _subsidized_ them.
|
| The ironic part is that "gas stations everywhere" has been
| absolutely terrible for groundwater--contamination is now
| ubiquitous. Paying gas stations to dig up old tanks and
| replace them with electric chargers would be a big
| environmental win.
| gambiting wrote:
| The entire series of Long Way Up felt like it was filmed maybe
| ~5 years too early. So many of the issues were caused by the
| bikes just being prototypes.
|
| Also the solution is easy - when the car is plugged in, just
| heat the battery so it charges at optimal rate and is ready for
| your journey. Some cars already do this(the new BMW i4 and I
| guess the iX too)
| rcarr wrote:
| > The entire series of Long Way Up felt like it was filmed
| maybe ~5 years too early. So many of the issues were caused
| by the bikes just being prototypes.
|
| That was kind of the point though: they wanted to push the
| boundaries of what was possible. There's a good quote
| attributed to Leonard Bernstein:
|
| > To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and
| not quite enough time.
|
| I feel like the project pushed Harley Davidson and Rivian to
| achieve something a lot quicker than they would have done
| otherwise. I hope they do another one in a few years though
| to see how far the technology has come along, although
| they've covered quite a lot of the world now so I'm not sure
| what route they'd choose exactly. NZ -> Aus -> SE Asia ->
| India -> Stans -> Turkey -> Europe would be my guess.
| Animatronio wrote:
| I remember they said a team from Rivian went ahead and
| installed chargers in several places along the route. And
| still they had a huge case of range anxiety. Instead of
| focusing on places and people they were harping about
| batteries, recharging, messing the schedule bc of that and
| so on. Frankly, it was a huge fail, especially compared to
| their previous trip through Siberia.
| gambiting wrote:
| I 100% agree. Compared to the long way down and long way
| round it focused way way too much on technical issues and
| range anxiety, instead of the locations and people like
| the other two series.
| jl6 wrote:
| Long Way In, showcasing the latest in electric tunnel
| boring machinery to reach geothermal-power-generating
| depths. Who's got the high ground now?
| swayvil wrote:
| Flywheels. What's the state of the tech for that?
|
| Surly that's where we should be developing. Last I heard they're
| very efficient.
|
| In theory it has no ceiling, storagewise. And it certainly isn't
| constrained by a chemical reaction.
|
| The only downside is keeping it from blowing up. Right?
| petermcneeley wrote:
| My friend you have come to the right place.
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34079497
| fuoqi wrote:
| Are you suggesting to use flywheels as an energy source in
| EVs??? There is a heap of issues with this idea, the main ones:
|
| - They are VERY heavy. Typical energy density for flywheels is
| 10-40 kJ/kg (if you account for the whole flywheel), while Li-
| ion batteries and gasoline store 300-1000 kJ/kg and 46700 kJ/kg
| respectively (the latter does not account for ICE efficiency).
|
| - They are relatively big, since you can store more energy with
| a bigger diameter (limited by material's strength-to-weight
| ratio).
|
| - Flywheel is a big gyroscope. You do not want to rotate it
| around while it spins.
| amelius wrote:
| Is it true that the same model of car always uses the same
| underlying battery tech?
| Deprogrammer9 wrote:
| I live in Florida, im good.
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