[HN Gopher] 10x C++ Editor ___________________________________________________________________ 10x C++ Editor Author : davikr Score : 184 points Date : 2023-01-03 14:33 UTC (8 hours ago) (HTM) web link (10xeditor.com) (TXT) w3m dump (10xeditor.com) | hoistbypetard wrote: | This feels super-spammy. | [deleted] | nice__two wrote: | Did anyone try opening LibreOffice master in it? | | LO has a reputation as an IDE-killer, as it's so large and | complex. | heywhatupboys wrote: | I hope it is shorter than the startup time for LO itself | Zenity wrote: | This got me curious, so I gave it a try. It opens instantly (as | always) and parsing the complete codebase in the background | took about two minutes. After that everything is practically | instant and there is no problem searching through the code, | finding references, code completion, etc. Reopening the project | is also instant and it takes less than ten seconds to fully | load the cache in the background. Since I don't know the code I | can't really comment on whether everything got parsed | correctly, but the random bits I tried seemed to be right. | | This doesn't seem to be worse than the Unreal codebase, which | 10x also handles with ease. I highly doubt that there is a | codebase in existence which could bring 10x to its knees. It | does use quite a bit of memory, but nothing a modern setup | shouldn't be able to handle. Currently it seems to be about 4GB | for both Unreal and LO each, with LO being just slightly | larger. | | This of course are extreme cases, so you can imagine what | performance for "normal" projects is like. | synergy20 wrote: | how is it better than vim, or vscode, or clion to qualify itself | as 10x? | synergy20 wrote: | I don't know why is this downvoted, a genuine question from me | actually, if it's truly revolutionary and helpful I'm willing | to purchase then. | fhd2 wrote: | Can't tell why you're downvoted either - could have been a | bit more constructive, like your second post, I guess. | | Otherwise I agree: 10x certainly invokes the mythical "10x | programmer" to me, but looking through the list of features, | it's pretty basic. USP seems to be speed, probably competing | against the heavy IDEs, not Emacs and Vim. But getting there | took some guesswork, the website didn't answer these | questions well for me. | AlchemistCamp wrote: | I downvoted the comment because the article explicitly | mentioned speed, which VS Code and Clion both struggle with. | Either the gp didn't read TFA or didn't have experience with | the kinds of code bases it discussed. | synergy20 wrote: | well I spent a few minutes checking its website and could | not find that 'speed' keyword, plus I don't have a speed | issue with vscode and clion though I don't use them often, | as I'm a vim user. | [deleted] | stan680 wrote: | I've been using this fulltime for a few months so I can provide | some perspective from real-world experience: | | Firstly, on speed, I really recommend giving it a try. There's | things like launch time / time to syntax highlighting which are | nice to have and make it a joy to use but then there's things | like _instant_ 'Find References' and workspace search that I | think contribute to a qualitative difference to the way I work - | I simply would not use these features as much or in the same way | if they took seconds (as they do in VS). | | Seen some discussion comparing to things like Sublime - 10x | understands c++ code much much better than sublime and that's | crucial for making some of its best features like 'Rename' and | 'Find references' work so well. | | The other thing I think is worth mentioning is just how active | and responsive the developer is. Bug-fixes and improvements often | get implemented within hours of reporting. As an example, I've | always been annoyed by how impossible it is to make VS do 'tabs | for indentation, spaces for alignment' - after a brief | discussion, this got sorted in 10x quickly. I think that's a | serious advantage over Visual Studio, that often has annoying | issues/bugs languishing for literally years. | jimmaswell wrote: | > make VS do 'tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment' | | Using an editorconfig file I never had an issue doing this. I | get a tab if I hit tab and a space if I hit space. | olig15 wrote: | I'm a heavy Visual Studio user (work for a AAA game dev, C++), | and find VS without extensions horrible to use, but after | Installing the 'Visual Assist' (which seems to be an industry | standard in game dev at this point) extension it gives me all | of the advantages you mentioned. Have you tried using this | (admittedly paid for) extension? | Zenity wrote: | What got me into 10x is actually how similar the default | setup is to Visual Assist (including default shortcuts). And | since it supports Visual Studio solutions, 10x will just work | out of the box with any Unreal project or many other similar | large C++ projects. You could even switch back and forth | without a problem while evaluating 10x, which is what I did | the first couple of months or so when I started using it. It | has already come a long way since then though, and I've been | using 10x exclusively for quite a few months now (full time | working on an Unreal project and some personal side | projects). The developer is a former game dev himself, so he | understands our particular needs quite well and is very | responsive to them. The fact that 10x can easily manage those | kind of codebases is what really differentiates it from other | "lightweight" text editors in my book. Building and debugging | still goes through Visual Studio for VS projects (with good | integration and no required setup), so switching causes no | disruption. | | Compared to Visual Assist it may not have all the bells and | whistles yes, but especially the code navigation (which to me | is the most important aspect) and code completion is quite | advanced already and incredibly fast, even compared to Visual | Assist. Parsing the entire UE4 codebase for the first time | (in the background) takes a couple of minutes. Opening it | from cache is practically instant, all search operations / | code completion are also near instant with no stalls | whatsoever. In terms of refactoring it is more limited, but | renaming symbols works well and that covers about 99% of the | cases were I regularly use refactoring tools anyway. | | And unlike Visual Studio or JetBrains IDEs, 10x is so fast | and lightweight that I would like to use it for all of my | text editing needs. That makes customizing it much more | satisfying as well, which is quite easy to do with a | straightforward Python API. | | As you can probably tell I really love this editor, it has | had a quite dramatic impact on my enjoyment of work already. | It won't be for everybody (and it doesn't try to), but I | would encourage everybody to give it a try. If it is the kind | of editor you are looking for, I think you will be very happy | with it. | jim90 wrote: | Yeah, I have been a VAX user for years... took me 15 minutes | of testing out 10x before I purchased it. | [deleted] | xrayarx wrote: | Which version(s) of c++ does the 10x parser support? | | Are there independent performance measurements? | | What are your reference projects for "largest projects"? | | Which GUI Toolkit do you use? | | Do you support LSP? | [deleted] | pulse7 wrote: | Please fix broken links on the license site | (https://10xeditor.com/License.htm)... | xrayarx wrote: | It seems that there is no unique selling proposition. Practically | any editor can do this for any language. Also there are many free | editors, that fulfil the requirements. | [deleted] | anilcanglk wrote: | it is rapid fast and efficient to use. I've been using it for one | year | artisanspam wrote: | It would be nice if the website put the donation links below the | demo images instead of having them be the first thing you see. | That was a big turn off when I first loaded the page. | [deleted] | reisse wrote: | As a C++ developer, I don't really see how it is going to compete | against VS Code + LSP, Visual Studio, or even CLion. | | From my experience, if you work on C++ codebase large enough that | indexing it is a problem, compiling and linking it is a problem | of the same order. And as you need beefy hardware to compile and | link your code anyway, you can reuse the same hardware for | indexing and editing. | | Sure, VS Code + LSP may be dog slow on a typical "power | consumption-optimized crappy business laptop" like T-series or | X-series ThinkPads, but on such hardware, even if I had fast code | editor, it'd be a pain to develop due to very long compile times | anyway. And on a 12c20t workstation with 64 gigs of RAM any | editor works like a charm. Yes, `clangd` eats 20 threads and 20 | gigs of RAM for indexing, but go to definition works instantly, | and I don't really care about hardware resources. | | Then, parsing C++ properly is really hard. Even JetBrains had to | admit it as they've integrated clang++ frontend into the CLion. I | don't believe that one person can create both a good code editor | and a fully compliant C++ parser. Maybe they piggyback on EDG or | clang++ frontends, but from their website it seems that | everything is written from scratch. | | Another problem I see is that very few of large codebases are | C++-only. Usually it's some C++, some Python (or Perl, if the | code is old enough) scripts, maybe some Java interop code, few Go | tools, with a bit of Lua on top. And a lot of make/CMake/whatever | build system files. "Big" IDEs and editors either support all of | that from the box or have plugins to fill the gaps. I don't know | if the paid-only closed-source product can gain traction big | enough to have a vibrant plugin community. | forrestthewoods wrote: | > As a C++ developer, I don't really see how it is going to | compete against VS Code + LSP, Visual Studio, or even CLion. | | Easy, it's better than all of them! | | If you're a C++ developer on Windows then I encourage you to | simply try it. I run a 32c/64t threadripper so I also don't | particularly care about hardware resources. My experience on a | custom C++ codebase and Unreal Engine codebase is that 10x is | faster and more reliable than VS Code, Visual Studio, and | Rider. I haven't tried CLion as Rider is the JetBrains tool for | UE. | | I agree lack of support for other languages is a bummer. I'm | hoping support will be added if the tool takes off. Maybe he | ads LSP support, I dunno. | | > parsing C++ properly is really hard | | I'm genuinely blown away he wrote a custom parser that works. | Unreal Engine is big and nasty and full of a kajillion macros. | My experience thus far is that 10x handles it like a champ. | Better than Visual Studio. And equal or better than Rider. | Super super impressive. | thewebcount wrote: | > on Windows | | They might want to mention that somewhere on the page. I | spent time reading about it only to find out when I tried to | download it that it doesn't support my OS. | stewartlynch8 wrote: | The way I see 10x competing is by general speed and | responsiveness, and the robustness of the parser. The parser | may not be fully C++ compliant, but it is dependable and scales | well. | | I don't want to be specific here, but my experiences with some | other IDEs is that they can stall, lock up and operations can | take seconds to complete regardless of the hardware. All this | can break the flow. I think you really have to try 10x on a | large project to notice the difference. The instance search | feature alone can be a game changer. | | > I don't believe that one person can create both a good code | editor and a fully compliant C++ parser | | Believe me, I question this myself almost every day. A small | hobby project turned into a 6 year marathon and here we are. | The parser will probably never be fully compliant, but | hopefully it's good enough for most code. And the speed and | robustness will hopefully compensate for this. | | > Another problem I see is that very few of large codebases are | C++ only | | Even though I market 10x as a C++ editor, it has syntax | highlighting for many other languages. And you can add more | languages using the regex system. I'll hopefully be adding some | parsing for other languages after the 1.0 launch. | _gabe_ wrote: | I have a PC with 48GB of RAM, RTX 2080, Intel i7-9700K, and | Visual Studio _still_ lags a lot of the time for me. Also, | Visual Studio doesn 't support renaming by reference out of the | box. You can install ReSharper, but then it slows things down | even _more_. | | > As a C++ developer, I don't really see how it is going to | compete against VS Code + LSP, Visual Studio, or even CLion. | | If it's fast and supports these basic features that literally | every other language already supports, then it's already | beating Visual Studio. I haven't used CLion so I can't comment | there, and VSCode was a pain trying to set up, so if this | supports integration with cmake and automatically configured | everything, then that's a win in my book. | | Edit: I also hate these doom and gloom comments that basically | say "nobody can beat big Corp Microsoft, Google, etc. Why | bother trying...". What purpose does this comment serve? I'm | sure the author is much more aware of how difficult this | problem is then the people who aren't even attempting to solve | it. All the power to him and I hope he succeeds because some | other editors/IDEs for C++ would be _great_. | darknavi wrote: | > VSCode was a pain trying to set up, so if this supports | integration with cmake and automatically configured | everything, then that's a win in my book. | | Not sure the last time you tried, but VS Code does support | cmake (perhaps with extensions?). | forrestthewoods wrote: | Lots of comments from people here who haven't tried the editor. | I've been using it full time for about a month, so here are some | assorted thoughts. | | I don't use vim or emacs. I probably never will. Sorry. | | This editor is made for C++ game devs on Windows. If you are a | C++ gamedev on Windows then it is likely the best editor in the | market. An example of this is it has integrated Perforce support | but not Git. | | 10x can open .sln files natively and invoke its builds. Very | slick. | | I'm pretty sure 10x is the best editor on market for Unreal | Engine projects. It's so much faster then Visual Studio or Rider. | | It has a custom C++ parser. It's the fastest and most reliable | one I've come across. It blows my mind. | | The solo dev is _insanely_ responsive. I filed a bug on GitHub | and he responded in literally one minute (I checked the time | stamps). He sent me a custom debug build which I ran out o get | info and had a crash fix published to the world in under 30 | minutes. Stellar stuff. | | The downsides: | | it's just a C++ editor for Windows and it does have bugs. | | It's not a debugger, just a text editor. I've been using RemedyBG | which is good, but not as far along as 10x. | | Support for additional languages is listed as a possibility for | the future. I will keep using it happily for C++. If in the | future it supported more languages to the same level of quality | that would be awesome. | tkuraku wrote: | The monthly cost is kind of a nonstarter for me. The sublime text | model seems like a good alternative. ~$100 for ~3 years of | updates with perpetual ownership of the latest version at the end | of your subscription. | [deleted] | Zenity wrote: | The monthly cost is for supporters and to get priority support | on Discord (absolutely worth it IMO given how fast the dev | responds to issues and requests). AFAIK the final pricing model | for the release is not decided yet. | sam0x17 wrote: | Some web design advice: I looked for a tab called "Screenshots", | didn't find one, didn't find any general info about what this is | other than the buy now stuff, so I hit the Back button. | | Edit: I re-visited and scrolled down past what I thought was the | end of the page only to find everything I was looking for. This | is the problem with these huge scrolling marketing pages. You | gotta lead with the content and then try to sell me at the | bottom. | detrites wrote: | Exact same thing happened here. Only went back because I saw | your comment. | sam0x17 wrote: | Yeah, I think people take "single page application" a little | too literally these days | DrewADesign wrote: | Yeah. These folks should probably hire a designer. They clearly | put a lot of fancy looking elements in it to attempt to | replicate the look of a designed page, but that's not how it | works. Many developers think design is like air freshener for a | page-- an aesthetic improvement based on personal preference | and taste that's distantly secondary to the _real content._ But | colors, relationships between elements, placement of elements, | and all of those things communicate about your product. If they | 're inexpertly or sloppily put together, it communicates that | your product is inexpertly or sloppily put together _well | before they visually parse your copy and screenshots._ | | Here's a free first impression breakdown for them: A page's | social media link stripe is commonly at the bottom of the page | as a final "ok you're not going to buy this right now, but at | least keep us in mind" call to action, or at the very top of a | page as a nav element. Gray is a common color for page terminal | stripes or other perfunctory, de-emphasized components because | nothing stands out against it as much as it would stand out | against something else. Pricing schemes are either on a | standalone page or at least after some introduction explains | what they are. Seeing the gray stripe of social media links | under the pricing block is like a stop sign to your brain. | Beyond that, the "more options" button at the bottom of the | page only reveals more options at the top of the page. The | section of tiny screenshots half covered up with those boxes in | that same "not important" gray is very off-putting. Not only | does varying shades of gray text on white or various shades of | gray background scream "don't pay attention to me," it's | irritating to read, and their #969696 text on white on the | purchase page even fails WCAG AA color contrast guidelines for | headlines. Many elements are slightly misaligned. The complete | lack of visual hierarchy beyond the project name and purchase | section title leads users to subconsciously say "not worth the | cognitive load to figure out what's going on here," and | leave... and that was a sub 5-minute analysis. | | Most bounced users don't consciously think about why they left. | They'll never complain about it because they'll never think | about you again. There's a damn good reason big businesses put | a lot of time and resources into that stuff, and as much as | folks like to think otherwise, having developers as your | customers doesn't change that. Developer-targeted FOSS projects | get away with undesigned websites because it's _free as in | speech,_ and most people are probably looking at the very | thoughtfully designed Github, et al interface instead. Even | subconsciously, broken buttons, misaligned elements, | uncomfortably obfuscated elements, and miscommunication of | navigation cues through poor color choice does not communicate | "high-quality paid software product that beats the vast array | of free competition." | stewartlynch8 wrote: | Thanks for this advice. I'm currently in the process or re- | doing the website and this is really useful feedback. | Hopefully a lot of these issues have already been addressed. | I'll be uploading the new site in a day or two. | | The sudden activity on this site kind of took me by surprise, | I wasn't quite ready for the big reveal. | [deleted] | tejohnso wrote: | > The 10x philosophy: Every operation, from opening projects to | searching for text should be instant. | | You can get that with basic VIM and some grepping shortcuts. | Maybe I'm just not working in sufficiently large code bases. But | shouldn't a C++ specific editor have some philosophy that is | specific to C++? Like awareness of ownership semantics for syntax | / lint checks? Maybe not the best example, but "be fast" doesn't | seem like a great differentiator. | [deleted] | ljw1004 wrote: | I presume it means things like "does cross-file go-to-def and | find-all-references work instantly after opening a file?" In | most IDEs these things take seconds or minutes to become | available, depending on project size | steeleduncan wrote: | I think at this point speed is a great differentiator. | | I've been happy with the featureset and design of all C++ IDEs | I've tried for a decade or so now, but they never seem to get | any faster. An IDE designed specifically for speed, with an | ongoing committment to keep it fast, solves the biggest issue I | have with C++ coding right now. | nine_k wrote: | What instantly jumps at me is the fact that the software is | subscription-based, with a monthly cost. Small, admittedly, if | you're in the US, or maybe in Switzerland, and have a job (not a | student, etc). | | I'm more and more reluctant to admit _any_ tools that are not | open-source into my long-term stack. And a text editor is usually | a very long-term commitment: you want to commit it to your muscle | memory, and most of your daily development workflow hinges on the | editor. | fasterik wrote: | I thought the same thing at first (the website could be | clearer). But it's actually a free beta. The subscription is | there for people who want to help fund development and get | priority support. | lholden wrote: | I love seeing new editors come up. Always curious to see what | people have planned for them. With that said... I do have to say | that the landing page for this was a turn off for me. | | Digging through the landing page, the focus seems to be on how to | support it and there just isn't enough time spent talking about | why this project is cool or worth supporting. | | From what I can gleam from the page this seems to have a GPU | backed renderer and have fast startup times. It seems intended | for C++ but doesn't really talk about C++ specific features. (Ex, | CMake integration, integration with doctest/catch/etc). | | The one C++ specific thing it mentions is "full C++ parser for | syntax highlighting, autocomplete, goto-definition, find | references and a lot more". Does this support C++20? Is it using | it's own engine for this or is integrating with clang or | something similar. What is this doing that all of the other | editors with C++ syntax support don't have? | | I consider CLion to be a "gold standard" for features and | functionality as a editor/IDE for C++. The only thing it doesn't | do for me is "be fast and light". I'm also a long time VIM user | and I generally default to VIM when I want something "fast and | light". | | If there was an editor/ide that had many of the features of CLion | and the speed of VIM, I would certainly consider that to be | "10x". | Zenity wrote: | Yes it is using its own parsing engine. The developer is | prioritizing the most common language features but also | constantly working on adding more edge cases as people run into | them. The parser is designed to do a sensible thing in all | cases, so while occasionally it may not get it perfectly right | (yet), that doesn't break the parser completely. | | What this custom solution is doing that others don't is simply | that it is incredibly fast. You really need to try it to fully | appreciate this though, especially on large codebases it makes | a significant difference. Not just because it never lags or | stalls while working, but also because it makes it much less | painful to work with those codebases if you can instantly find | and jump to anything. | | The speed and simplicity is the main selling point, but unlike | other lightweight editors it doesn't achieve this simply by | being "less". From my perspective the main selling point is | that it is a lightweight and performant editor that can | actually replace Visual Studio + VAX / JetBrains for game | developers (especially Unreal Engine projects and comparably | large codebases). For that use case there just isn't anything | comparable on the market right now. | | Whether it is equally useful in other scenarios already | (especially if you are happy with your current setup) I can't | really judge, and I would agree that the website could do a | much better job selling it. The developer is still updating the | website often, but his priority is working on the actual app of | course and he is doing everything by himself from what I can | tell. | | In a nutshell, right now I would say that 10x is mainly a great | choice for game developers. But that's only because that is | where its strengths are most unique right now, not because it | is intended to be only that. It still isn't even fully released | yet, and I think it has a lot of potential to be much more than | "just" a performant editor for game developers. | stewartlynch8 wrote: | Please don't judge the website too harshly. I agree it doesn't | communicate what 10x is very well and isn't very professional. | I'm currently working on an update that I'll be uploading in | the next day or two. I wasn't quite ready for a big announce | yet, but I'm pleased more people are discovering 10x. | | > If there was an editor/ide that had many of the features of | CLion and the speed of VIM, I would certainly consider that to | be "10x". | | This is exactly what 10x is meant to be. Whether it has enough | features yet is up to you to judge. Everyone needs a different | set of features, but if it has the features you need then I | hope it lives up to its name. | | I've written the parser myself, but I haven't been keeping | track of exactly what version of C++ is supported. The C++ spec | is incredibly complex. Over the last 6 years I've been adding | things as they are requested. The good thing about the parser | is that it will skip anything it doesn't understand and | continue on. This sounds bad, but it actually works out very | well. It will do a pretty good job of most things you throw at | it. The best thing is to try it and see. If you need specific | support for something, let me know and I'll see what I can do. | monkeycantype wrote: | Hello Stewart, I think the only addition I would want to the | website is an _about page_ with a few paragraphs to explain | your motivation and goals. Without that entry point, I was | clicking through, feeling like 10x was something I might be | interested in but not really sure what it was. | czx4f4bd wrote: | This is one of my biggest gripes with a lot of open source | [edit: and also non-open source] projects. It's sort of | baffling to me when I come across a project that the | maintainers clearly want to be used, but there's no clear and | concise explanation of what the project is, why you'd want to | use it, and how it compares with major alternatives. | _kst_ wrote: | Agreed. I've seen too many README files that summarize the | changes in the latest release without explaining what the | project is or what it's for. (I don't have a specific | example, which _might_ imply that the problem isn 't as bad | as I remember it being.) | stewartlynch8 wrote: | Point taken. I'm currently working on a new website and I'll | try and I'll try and address these issues. | | It's simply down to time, I spend most of my time working on | making 10x better. Because it's still in Beta I haven't | focused on the website much. | __float wrote: | Do note that this project isn't open source: for something | like an editor, this is a bit of a negative for me since it | significantly reduces how it can be customized if need be. | czx4f4bd wrote: | Oops. Thanks for the correction. I only lightly skimmed the | project page, so I think the "Support 10x Development" | header made me assume it was an open source project asking | for donations. | | That said, I'm not really sure why I specified "open | source" since my gripe definitely goes for any software | project, and probably doubly so for commercial ones, since | those actually need a literal sales pitch to convince | potential users of their value proposition. | fefe23 wrote: | I have no interest in this (happy with vim, developing under | Linux) but I installed it anyway and the first impression is | absolutely impressive. | | The installer is comparatively small. It loads quickly. Doesn't | ask any useless questions. Installs quickly. The app also loads | quickly and feels snappy. | | People tend to underestimate the importance of first impressions. | This guy gets it. | | Now if this was open source and built and ran on Linux, I'd be | interested. _uninstall_ :-) | [deleted] | Johanx64 wrote: | Who cares in what you'd be interested in after you've clearly | stated that you want software to be essentially given away for | free? | | At that point your desires become 100% irrelevant, nobody | cares. | | "If this software was given away for free with full access to | source and had features X, Y and Z, I'd be interested", like | wtf, how can you say this with a straight face? | jostiniane wrote: | Your comment is out of place at so many levels. | | First, you don't know there are commercial products being | completely open source. | | Second, as a user, the one has the right to put their | priorities regardless of your irrelevant opinion on them | being good or bad. | | Finally, I fail to understand the hostility against somebody | who simply expressed what they want to see in an editor, | something that contributes nicely to the thread, unlike your | hostile purely negative comment. | Johanx64 wrote: | > First, you don't know there are commercial products being | completely open source. | | Cut it out, everbody knows full well how open source works | out for small indie, much less one person teams. | | It is extremely egocentric to demand for a change of | business model which would send the author begging for the | next meal on patreon. And then after you've asked "kindly" | the author to join the homeless row, you have the gall to | ask for additional features or "uninstall" smiley-face. | | So no, I do believe the hostility is more than warranted | when the author is being pressured/bullied into making | decisions which would - statistically speaking - lead to | financial ruin. | | This wasn't a reply to a reasonable feature request by a | paying customer or even potential customer, so no, nothing | was contributed by it other than a sheer display of | egocentrism and entitlement. | [deleted] | chlorion wrote: | Free software has nothing to do with money or not paying for | a product. | | You can educate yourself with the following resource: | https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html | IshKebab wrote: | It doesn't have _nothing_ to do with it. It 's much easier | to sell software if it's closed source. Some people manage | to sell open source software but it's obviously pretty hard | to compete with some guy who just compiled your software, | changed the name and is giving it away for free. | linhns wrote: | For $10 a month (I assume tier 2 is what most people find | acceptable for use), what would I get for this editor? No | roadmap, not even an about page and the last HN post was from | last year so a definite no from me. | [deleted] | pantalaimon wrote: | Does this also work for C? | Zenity wrote: | Yes, with some minor limitations as it receives much less | testing. I was using 10x with The Machinery (RIP) for some time | and the developer was super responsive fixing any C-specific | issues (and even added some TM specific features when I asked | nicely). If more people start using it for C and report any | issues found, it should get even better. | | I would say it may even be better suited for C to some extent | since that is a much simpler language with less chances for the | parser to get confused by some obscure corner case. C++ really | is the worst case scenario for a parsing engine, so once it | works reliably for that, support for other languages should | also become much more feasible. | scombridae wrote: | It's hard to imagine a C programmer so professionally ignorant | that he's yet to realize C++ is a superset of C. | lowbloodsugar wrote: | >It's hard to imagine a C programmer so professionally | ignorant that he's yet to realize C++ is a superset of C. | | Ooof. restrict keyword enters the chat. C and C++ are two | languages that evolve together, but one is not a superset of | the other. | [deleted] | MobiusHorizons wrote: | I see this comment a lot, but it's not true (at least not any | more). Many valid C programs do not compile through the C++ | compiler. The standards for C++ and C have deviated over the | years. | TheArcane wrote: | What's with every paid software product being a monthly | subscription now? I just wanna buy and forget, not be reminded of | it every month on my credit card statement. | andsoitis wrote: | I'm fine with software subscriptions (fixes, upgrades, customer | support, etc.), but subscribing for something that's still in | development (this case) is harder for me to swallow, in | principle. On the other hand, it is very little money and you | can cancel your subscription at any time so it keeps the | developer honest (focus to make the product better and reach | 1.0). | | What I'm most surprised by is that Visual Studio isn't more | than adequate. What does Microsoft use internally? | witx wrote: | I actively dislike the subscription model as well and it's | permeating into software products unfortunately. | | With this said I actually like Jetbrains' model where you pay | something like a subscription but after 12 installments you get | to keep the version you've paid for, even if you discontinue | the subscription. If you prefer you can pay the full price | upfront and you get the same result. | [deleted] | yellow_lead wrote: | > There is no need to pay for a license while 10x is in Beta, | you are free to use 10x for whatever you like. Even if you | don't become a supporter you can still give feedback and | suggestions using the contact form. Your feedback is just as | valuable to me and will help to make 10x the best editor | possible. | | https://10xeditor.com/support_10x.htm | neomantra wrote: | While I understand that sentiment, this appears to be a product | from an indie developer. In that regard, it could fit the model | of Patreon/OnlyFans rather than Adobe Creative Cloud and | Office365. | | I actually hope more indie developers do this -- and complement | it with live-coding the product development and other neat | perks. If it reaches critical mass beyond "fans" and becomes | major-version-based sales, then early supporters could get | large discounts. | | Biggest downside seems to be if the software becomes End-of- | Life and End-Of-Access suddenly, for whatever reason, and my | workflow is disrupted. Some Open Source Parachute would be cool | -- over time, we are all affected by dropped software products, | by developers big and small. | hn_user2 wrote: | Agreed. I have put a hard stop on subscribing to any software. | Even Jetbrain's products, I'll just purchase outright every few | years to get updates. | | All those subscriptions add up. And when I buy a product I | expect to use it for a very long time (decade +). If I add up | those subscription fees it feels incredibly expensive. | | I have successfully weened myself off of all my software | subscriptions. On a yearly basis it was costing me $1000+ for | software. At this point it doesn't matter how good of software | it is, I'm moving on if it doesn't have a purchase or lifetime | option. | stewartlynch8 wrote: | I understand the resistance to a monthly subscription, but it's | the only way I can continue to work on 10x. I've been working | on 10x for 6 years now, and even with the generous support from | the beta subscribers I can't go on indefinitely like this. | Hopefully the subscription will seem worth it with all of the | bug fixes and features that are planned. I will continue | uploading new versions regularly, as I have been doing: | https://10xeditor.com/versions.htm | karaterobot wrote: | They should call it 12x. I'm at the point where I just don't do | these small monthly subscriptions anymore. I'd stop short of | saying it's predatory. More like it's insulting. The smaller | the payment, the more like I feel they're counting on me | forgetting I'm paying them, or not wanting to go through the | cancellation process. | corysama wrote: | I've never worked on indie desktop software, but I've heard the | same story repeated here for over a decade by those who have: | | Everyone wants buy once, updated forever software. But, they | don't want to pay for it. Usually they think a fair, up-front | price is less than they'd pay month-to-month as a subscription | for a year. And, then 80+% of them will only buy when there is | a big sale cutting that price to a fraction. And, even when you | have a good product at a good price, your sales plummet every | time the crack for your DRM gets updated. So, you have to push | frivolous updates that mainly exist to keep your DRM ahead of | the crackers. | | Buy once works great for consumers. And, has worked great for a | handful of products. But, commercial desktop software has been | an excessively difficult market for two decades now. That's why | it is a hollow shell of what it could be with the issues I | listed above. That's why we get so many web apps that would be | better for consumers as desktop apps: can't pirate a web app, | subscribing to a web app _feels_ justifiable. | PragmaticPulp wrote: | JetBrains made a good compromise, IMO: You get a perpetual | license that allows you to use whatever version you had at | the time, but you only get updates as long as you're paying | the subscription. | | And that's fair, IMO. A lot of my "buy once" software in the | past turned into a never-ending game of unpredictable | upgrades. I'd have to re-buy upgrade licenses at | unpredictable intervals to continue using the software with | new version of MacOS or new plugins. At least with the | subscription model, it's honest and open. | xedrac wrote: | > Everyone wants buy once, updated forever software. | | Actually, I prefer buy never, updated forever software. | Somehow free* software fills all my needs these days. I | wouldn't mind paying for exceptionally good software, if it | came with source code and the ability to build new versions | of it. | fhd2 wrote: | Didn't downvote you, but this is essentially why I have no | desire to build anything for programmers - unless I happen | to need it for myself, then I casually open source it | (rarely actively maintained as soon as I stop needing it). | | I go to _fantastic_ lengths to not pay for software, to | mostly use software I could theoretically contribute to, or | even to not have to deal with learning new tools. I even | built my own accounting system (based on Ledger though). | | We're an insanely tough crowd to monetise, I suppose. At | least some of us. Meanwhile, prosumer software in other | areas seems to be doing quite well, happy users, decent | income for the developers and all. | not_the_fda wrote: | I think some people are always hesitant to open their | pocketbook, but I've spend quite a bit on my software | development tools. I've bought countless IDE's, code | editors, diff tools, and source control clients. If it | makes my job easier its usually worth the price. | omoikane wrote: | I like DxO's model, which is "buy once and receive updates | for a while". Minor bug fixes appears to continue for about a | year, while major feature updates requires buying new | versions. This model means I get to choose when to upgrade | (and thus when to pay), and it's one reason why I use their | software instead of Adobe's. | pvarangot wrote: | Ableton is on the same model. | logicalmonster wrote: | > Everyone wants buy once, updated forever software. | | People pretend they hate Paradox Interactive's DLC-based | business model, but I like knowing that the games I buy will | very likely be well-developed with many years of extra work | put into them. More commercial software should take a little | inspiration from them in terms of figuring out a way to fund | and work on projects long term. | | For those that don't know, Paradox is a game publisher that | often release a basic shell of a grand strategy game that | serves as a platform for DLC. The bad news is you have to | shell out more money every so often for the biggest new | features: but the good news is that they're continuously | making big improvements and adding big features and have an | incentive to make them as good as possible. | | I confess that I don't know exactly if this model would work | for a text editor, but nothing is as off-putting to me as | software subscriptions when something can work locally. | badsectoracula wrote: | On the completely opposite side of this spectrum, i avoid | any game that i see having DLC getting pumped out | constantly - Paradox being one developer i avoid. | | I want to buy the final full game whenever the developers | are done with it, not buy pieces of it. If the developers | want to add new stuff they can always make a sequel. | | Because of this i tend to wait until some "game of the year | edition" is out and the developer has started working on a | new game (only a very tiny fraction of developers are going | to bother making DLCs for their previous games instead of | focusing their development efforts towards the new games). | | The only exception to that is MMOs and the like that by | their nature need updates and IMO the best approach there | _is_ having a subscription to fund the game 's development. | Of course the greedy powers that be figured out that giving | the game for free and monetizing microtransactions on the | easily preyed upon "whales" makes more money regardless of | the detriment that may have on the games' design. | logicalmonster wrote: | I get where you're coming from. I suspect that a lot of | peoples' aversion to all DLC stems from really greedy | phone games, where the trend has been to try and monetize | either extremely basic functionality or the ability to | play more often through gems/coins/diamonds/stars/etc. | Good DLC like XCOM 2's War of the Chosen basically | transformed and improved the experience of the entire | game and can be very much worth it. | | For many kinds of games with a level of complexity beyond | a shoot-em-up, I feel like these kinds of games would be | very difficult to make without a lengthier iterative | process that probably requires an additional revenue | stream. | | As the example given, Paradox makes grand strategy games | with intricate war/politics/economics and other game | systems that are all interrelated. Ideally, a company has | a lot of data and community feedback on the tiniest | minute details to figure out what elements work and what | elements don't and eventually refine the systems into the | best possible version. | | That said, I'm not saying it's impossible to avoid adding | DLC and still fund quality long-term development. A | different good game Project Zomboid has been in Steam | early access for a decade and is in a very good state and | still getting big new features: but those occasional | indie gems are the exception, not the rule. With most of | Paradox's games, you basically know that it'll be | supported and improved for years specifically because of | their business model. | weakfortress wrote: | [dead] | klyrs wrote: | > Everyone wants buy once, updated forever software. | | I want buy once, free minor bugfixes until the next major | version comes out software. | | For example, I liked windows 3.1, hated windows 95, liked | windows 98, hated ME, liked 2000, and never liked another | windows. Likewise, I liked early versions of Google maps, but | they change the interface in small and large ways | unpredictably. I could go on. | | With the subscription model, you're stuck with every whim of | the developers, stuck with horrible interface changes and | you're constantly re-learning how to use the software to do | the things you need to do with it. There's a tendency to make | new features prominent, which comes at a cost to old (that is | to say, core) features. | | Auto-updates are a pox on usability. Stability in tools is | severely underrated and destroyed by the subscription model. | Decabytes wrote: | I mean there is obviously the more money component, but if the | software continually receives updates every month then it's | easier to justify it. The old photoshop model is difficult for | most developers to pull off (having paid versions). Also it | makes it challenging if you are say running a class, or doing | YouTube tutorials and everyone is on various versions that | might not have some of the new features. | | I wonder if there is a happy medium where you can buy it, and | then if a couple years later the software improves a bunch you | can upgrade at a discounted price tiered to how many years it's | been since you updated. I.E if it's 1 year is a 90% discount, 2 | years a 80% discount, 3 years 70% discount etc. What do people | think of this model? | Gys wrote: | You do not want updates that solve bugs? Some support in case | you have questions or problems? Maybe also some new features | (usually the word changes and also your experience and | expectations)? | ltbarcly3 wrote: | Somehow software vendors were able to accomplish 2 things | during the last 4 decades: | | 1. Ship software, including free updates for the current | version to fix bugs, without any fees beyond the purchase | price. | | 2. Become the richest companies in the world, by far, to the | point it's not even close. | | So the idea that they need subscriptions so they can 'afford' | to fix bugs is ridiculous. Also, paying the subscription | isn't a warranty, maybe they collect my money and don't fix | my bugs. | zozbot234 wrote: | The free updates don't last indefinitely, generally you | still have to pay for "extended" support. | rightbyte wrote: | If you have happily used some software for say 6 years, | it is no problem if the vendor stops fixing bugs in it. | It already works. | | SaaS and subscriptions is mainly a way to control the | users and milk them for money. | bogwog wrote: | They didn't become the richest companies in the world by | selling software without a subscription, they did it by | illegally suppressing competition without any repercussions | (among other things) | someguydave wrote: | Agreed, when I think of "rich software companies" they | all either had monopolies or were able to monopolize a | significant network or "mindshare". | GuB-42 wrote: | Yes, and don't mind paying for these. | | But I also want the software I buy to keep working as well as | they did the day I bought them. I don't expect the developer | to fix all bugs forever without any additional payment, even | less add features, but I'd rather not have a kill switch, | which for a text editor is what subscriptions are. | | Many software vendors (ex: Jetbrains) offer renewable | permanent licences that pays for maintenance without the kill | switch. Sublime Text, which is possibly 10x most direct | competitor now has a permanent license with 3 years of | updates, which can be considered a subscription (you have to | pay every 3 years for updates), but if you stop, your | software won't break. | nurettin wrote: | Bugs should be solved because the author made mistakes in | software that they sold, and are in the process of actively | selling. Not because I have a subscription. | | Features should be added as addons that I may or may not | purchase. | | Support should be optional. | heavenlyblue wrote: | I don't want to finance their project managers shipping new | "social" features and useless functionality that I am not | paying them for. | yeputons wrote: | I want these much less than I want the ability to run the | software without the danger of a developer disabling access | on a whim. Happened too many times already, including to me | personally. A standard example: games. | zbrozek wrote: | I want low-bug-density software I buy once and don't receive | updates for until I pay again. | [deleted] | wnkrshm wrote: | We should pay for features not for fixes | someguydave wrote: | Unfortunately very few are willing to pay a high price up | front for quality software. | aix1 wrote: | Exactly this, thank you for articulating it so well. | berkle4455 wrote: | If I paid for a fully working product, fixes should be | included, similar to how vehicle oems issue recalls and | provide a warranty/guarantee. | have_faith wrote: | Am I right that the Sketch app used to work like this? just | looked at their website and only see a subscription | offered. | junon wrote: | It's because nobody complained when software moved toward | subscription models. | mrozbarry wrote: | I think it would be great to have two streams. Purchase a | specific X.Y.* version, revision updates for free, and purchase | other updates, OR subscribe at a much lower cost monthly to get | all updates for any version. Just like JetBrains, if you stop | the subscription, you keep what you have. | charcircuit wrote: | It provides an incentive to keep shipping value to your | existing users as opposed to trying to solely grow the size of | the userbase since only new users give you money. | fckgnad wrote: | [dead] | make3 wrote: | vscode, the main competition to this I assume, is very fast to | me. would be curious to know how they compare | weakfortress wrote: | Try to open a large text file in VS Code and watch it grind to | a halt. While VS Code offers a buffet of features that are cool | and convenient it has a lot of problems. | __float wrote: | I find I occasionally look at "huge" text files in my day | job, but they're almost never _source_ files -- so I don 't | need syntax highlighting, jump to definition, etc. | | Is this something you do often in your C++ development? | weakfortress wrote: | I work with data, so it's not uncommon to load a large file | either deliberately or accidentally. Highlighting isn't the | issue. Even a CSV on the order of 100-200MB kills VS code | dead. I assume this is because it's an electron app. Other | apps do not have this problem. | AlchemistCamp wrote: | That's very surprising. I've found VS Code to be considerably | slower than Sublime Text or VIM for just about everything. I | don't think there would be much overlap at all between VS Code | users and people who would want something like this. | franky47 wrote: | If you use it, does that make you a 10x engineer? | | (I'll see myself out) | [deleted] | Koshkin wrote: | emacs is no longer constantly swapping, either. | [deleted] | xigoi wrote: | What does it offer over Neovim with some plugins and a C++ | language server? | [deleted] | ahepp wrote: | Does HN really allow posting just a purchase link? Not even a | discussion of why anyone would use this over vim/VS code + LSP? I | have to scroll below the fold to even see what it claims the | features are. Sorry to be that guy, but this one should have been | caught in the spam filter. | [deleted] | kvathupo wrote: | Given all the idioms in C++, I don't think constraining the | editor to one language is a bad idea *if* it caters to these | unique constructs. E.g. I had a templated PImpl class [1] whose | template parameter _was_ the implementation. It was a pain to | `grep` for the classes specializing it, especially when other | classes extended this PImpl class (sometimes extending a | specialization, sometimes not). | | [1] - https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/pimpl | Kukumber wrote: | The editor that puts to shame visual studio, if you can afford | to, consider supporting | | Fast software deserve all of our support | djmips wrote: | Great name for your product! | tempodox wrote: | The page doesn't say, but this is Windows only. | [deleted] | stephc_int13 wrote: | Subscription model is not a good idea for this type of tool. | | The Sublime Text licence is not cheap but is in a better spot, | IMHO. | [deleted] | user2342 wrote: | As I understood it, the subscription for the beta is optional | and intended to support development until the first release. I | would expect a more traditional license model with the release | version. | SketchySeaBeast wrote: | Admirable goals, but doesn't keeping it limited to C++ keep the | potential for backers limited? Whole-assing one thing is better | than half-assing two I guess, but it's an interesting initial | language. Is C++ tooling in particular that bad? | AlchemistCamp wrote: | C++ is one of the most popular languages in the world. It's a | gigantic market and growing every year. The bigger problem is | getting anyone to notice a new editor at all. | netr0ute wrote: | > Is C++ tooling in particular that bad? | | It's not that bad, but doing simple stuff like adding a library | can be a huge pain because you have to know how compilers link | programs internally to know how to fix the errors you're going | to get. | fathyb wrote: | > Admirable goals, but doesn't keeping it limited to C++ keep | the potential for backers limited? | | Agreed, feels like the C++ support could be packaged into an | LSP server to support other languages, and let other IDEs | benefit from its completion, increasing the number of potential | backers. | | > Is C++ tooling in particular that bad? | | Yes, at least when it comes to IDE support. Visual Studio on | Windows gave me the best experience, but it's Windows so I | don't use it. Xcode is so slow and unstable, it's a shame, it | used to be great. CLion doesn't scale well with huge projects. | SketchySeaBeast wrote: | Ah, OK. I assumed it was just a matter of adding the right | extension to VSCode or Sublime and you were off to the races. | If this fills a gap that's great. | kentonv wrote: | VSCode integrates with clangd for good jump-to-definition | and auto-completion. The problem is VSCode, which is built | on JavaScript/HTML, has become quite slow of late. The | editor feels sluggish to respond to keypresses, especially | in large files with lots of includes. It's always just on | the edge of bearable. | fathyb wrote: | In my case VSCode is very responsive, but the clang-based | language server is pegging an entire CPU core parsing | millions of C++ files in the project, causing it to not | respond to editor requests. | SketchySeaBeast wrote: | > but the clang-based language server is pegging an | entire CPU core parsing millions of C++ files | | It would be very interesting to see if the 10x Editor | does better in this case. | bogwog wrote: | It's all about the build system. Sublime has built-in | support for a few, with more available as extensions. Auto- | complete works out of the box using Sublime's own language- | agnostic implementation, which obviously isn't perfect, but | you can also install an LSP. | erlich wrote: | I half-expected it to be written in Rust. | pohl wrote: | If you're interested in something like that, Lapce is looking | pretty good, despite being in early stages of development. | [deleted] | nickelpro wrote: | What features here are differentiated from any other editor? | | VSC isn't slow for me. Is "speed" the only thing on offer? | Because giving up the plugin environment is a big ask for that. | darknavi wrote: | > VSC isn't slow for me. | | How big is your project? With Visual Assist X and our solution | it can take me upwards of 30 seconds before I can do anything | after opening the project. | bigbillheck wrote: | How often are you opening projects? | 29athrowaway wrote: | How does it compare to cscope? | liquidify wrote: | Can we get a "namespace" tree that shows namespaces as folders | (similar to how Intellij works with packages)? | stewartlynch8 wrote: | Do you mean a navigation bar at the top that shows the scopes? | If so that is planned after the 1.0 release. | fprog wrote: | I wonder what the author thinks of Sublime Text. Fast everything | (search, opening files, switching projects...) is a big part of | Sublime's value proposition, one that has so far survived the era | of VSCode. And AFAIK it is written in C++, and can certainly be | used to write C++. | stewartlynch8 wrote: | I've only tried sublime text briefly to be honest. I like its | speed, but I need something that can open huge Visual Studio | projects. I also wasn't sure about the C++ parsing which | requires installing packages. | | Just to be clear, 10x supports syntax highlighting for many | languages, it's only the parser that is C++ specific. | Thaxll wrote: | Re-inventing the wheel is very common for IDE / editors, ofc | this is already done by Sublime but I think in this crowded | space it's all about perception, maybe Sublime missed the train | and now you need a new "fresh" IDE to capture the audience. | gmiller123456 wrote: | I don't think they "missed the train", just VSCode is free, | and there's not enough compelling reason to pay for Sublime | now. | | I was a Sublime user for quite a while, and switched to | VSCode purely because it handled multiple cursors better. | Ironically, multi-cursor support was my key reason for | switching to Sublime from Notepad++. VSCode is slower, but | not enough to actually impact my performance coding. | bogwog wrote: | I would definitely choose Sublime over this, only because | Sublime isn't limited to/focused on a single language. However, | if I were a paying CLion user, this editor might be a more | compelling buy if it addresses some pain points, like | performance. | | but then again, Jetbrains is working on their own "polyglot" | editor called Fleet, which is aiming to be much faster and more | lightweight than their existing dinosaur IDEs. | enqk wrote: | Been using it daily at work on a relatively large C++ codebase | for a 20 year old native application, and it's really nice to | have an IDE that starts instantly, indexes and searches quickly | and integrates well with Visual Studio's sln. The performance is | just beyond what normal IDEs end up with | BaculumMeumEst wrote: | I would need to see a side-by-side comparison of 10x and vs code | performing equivalent tasks in a large codebase before investing | time and money in this tool. | weakfortress wrote: | [dead] | CodeVisio wrote: | >10x is written from the ground up in C++, with a custom UI | system and GPU rendering. | | It would be interesting to know which custom UI. | thewebcount wrote: | Yeah, whenever I see something like that, my first thought is, | "Doesn't work like other apps on your OS, so will be a pain to | get used to, will have weird inconsistencies, and won't | integrate properly with OS features that come standard with all | other apps you run. | CodeVisio wrote: | I know. In theory, custom UI doesn't necessarily mean to have | such freedom to "change" what UI's rules of the OS has been | established. It should sound more like, I don't use your way | of rendering stuff. | stewartlynch8 wrote: | I mean custom as in "I wrote it myself". It's not based on a | slow and bloated UI framework. Hopefully it's fairly standard | from a Windows point of view though. | | If you want to know more, I have lots of dev videos on my | youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/@puredevsoftware | twobitshifter wrote: | To me that's a turnoff, you might get an IDE where the speed is | faster, but updates and fixes will be slow to come because the | team could not get over NIH. | gauddasa wrote: | At least mention "Windows only" somewhere on home page or even | better just below the Download buttons. It was shocking to see | exe file being downloaded without any prompt or warning about | operating system. Had to dig into FAQ to see that Linux and MacOS | support are planned. | [deleted] | theLiminator wrote: | Looks pretty great, I won't personally use it, but best of luck | to the author. | | I've been very impressed by lapce's pace of development. Imo, | open source text editors are going to fully supplant closed- | source. | | Perhaps 10x is a killer app if you only use C++, but for a modern | day polyglot experience, I'm betting on lapce. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-01-03 23:00 UTC)