[HN Gopher] Not-such-better-living through chemistry ___________________________________________________________________ Not-such-better-living through chemistry Author : Metacelsus Score : 150 points Date : 2023-01-07 12:48 UTC (10 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.science.org) (TXT) w3m dump (www.science.org) | taxicabjesus wrote: | I don't have any personal experience with amphetamines, or any of | the stimulants other than caffeine. But plenty of my passengers | were struggling with substance addictions. I had a passenger who | was whacked out on something. He disappeared real quick - I | couldn't figure out how he got over that wall... | | One of my passengers, whom I helped get off alcohol, said her | downward spiral started with stimulants. Her husband had brought | cocaine home from 'work' in California. He had emotional problems | related to childhood. When cocaine got expensive they switched to | meth amphetamine. She realized it was causing problems for her | when she realized she'd been short with her youngest child. | | At one point her other boy was prescribed Adderall (amphetamine) | for ADD. That experiment only lasted for two weeks. She kept | these Adderall pills on reserve, and used them to wean herself | off the methamphetamine. That's when her anxiety started. After a | few months of medical treatment, she found the 'anxiety' was | perfectly relieved with alcohol. Whoops. [She ran back to the | bottle every time she got a little stressed. I eventually | encouraged her to use cannabis to mellow out: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21889546 ] | | Our dear leaders should come out of their ivory towers and figure | out what actually happens on the streets. The _War on Drugs_ has | been ongoing for over a hundred years. People cycle in and out of | jail /prison, but they don't get better from being mickeyed up | (incarcerated). | | From my perspective as a simple former taxi driver, the drug war | is just a make-work program for public defenders: _the bad | chemicals_ get confiscated and _the bad people_ get locked up, | but people still have the same amount of unaddressed distress. | People are usually worse off after getting corrected than they | were before. | | Two of my passengers informed me that cocaine is a much more | pleasant drug than meth amphetamine. I don't have any reports | about heroin vs. fentanyl. [Someone on twitter pointed out the | drug cartels transitioned to Fentanyl when it became apparent | that Afghanistan's heroin production was going to go offline.] | | Bringing back cheap plant-based drugs (cocaine, heroin, etc) is | an important step of harm reduction while society figures out how | to effectively address the reasons behind our suffering. | annoyingnoob wrote: | Nixon declared the War on Drugs in 1971. | | https://www.britannica.com/topic/war-on-drugs | taxicabjesus wrote: | Humanity has a long history of self-medicating distress. At | first this was mostly with alcohol. America's prohibition | efforts started in the early 1900's: prohibition, Harrison | Narcotic Tax Act, etc. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chasing_the_Scream#Background_. | .. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_drugs#20th_century | annoyingnoob wrote: | Is any regulation considered an act of 'war'? | | I pay taxes, do you call that a War on Income? If so, when | did it start? | tchaffee wrote: | The parent comment can hardly be credited with the | phrase. When Nixon announced his new policies he called | it a war on drugs. A catchy phrase that stuck. Far too | late now to try to rename it for some sort of pedantic | consistency. | loeg wrote: | Federal income taxes in the US started around the | beginning of the 20th century. | mjcohen wrote: | Remember: without chemistry, life itself would be unprofitable. | Octokiddie wrote: | > ... Methamphetamine has a chiral center, so you can produce the | pure (D) isomer, the pure (L), the exact 50/50 racemic mixture, | or anything in between. (L) methamphetamine is a pretty good | decongestant, but it is otherwise unenjoyable and has no market | as a drug of abuse. The classic P2P reductive amination will of | course give you the racemate; there's nothing chiral about the | synthesis at all. At the other end of the scale, reduction of | pseudoephedrine starts with a pure chiral material, and you get | only (D) methamphetamine as a product. | | What he's talking about is molecular mirror images. Our bodies | can tell the difference between the (L) and the (D) form. The | former drains your sinuses and the latter gets you high. | | This is a tangential plot point in _Breaking Bad_. In the episode | "Boxcutter," Walter White asks: "If our reduction is not | stereospecific, then how can our product be enantiomerically | pure?" | | There's a lot to unpack there, but it implies that Walt is | isolating (D) methamphetamine exclusively. It also implies that | this is occurring through a selective reductive procedure. | | The first few seasons established that the synthesis relies on | methylamine through a reductive procedure called P2P. But that | procedure produces (D) and (L) forms in equal quantities. | | What Walt is revealing in that one sentence is that he's | developed a way to do the reductive amination step in the P2P | cook such that just the (D) form is isolated. His use of the term | "stereospecific," implies that the selectivity is close to 100% | in the bond-forming step itself. The process therefore doesn't | just produce highly pure product, but does so very efficiently. | | At the time period of the show, such a reaction would have been | very close to cutting edge research. | w1nst0nsm1th wrote: | I don't know about where street drug trafficking were heading | these last 8 years since I didn't met a real life drug dealer | since 2014, I only heard from (ex)-drug users, social workers, | ex-dealer, and of course, the press. That in northern europe... | | The current thing on the rise here seems to be ketamine, | according to a social workers. | | There was in local news papers article about gangs shooting (and | launching grenades?) at each other after confiscated cocaine | shipment... And Stephen Colbert joked about Belgium asking for | help to distroy cocaine seizure. I met people who did jail time | for various substances trafficking. I met people who were in | recovery for cocaine addiction. I even met with someone | advocating for drug legalization... And I know for sure some ex- | neihbours set up a phony business to launder years of pot | trafficking benefices. | | But I never met, heard or read or whatever or whoever having | encountered methamphetamine in any way (or someone having met | someone else having encoutered methamphetamine)... | | And I live 30 minutes away in train from the closest dutch city. | I also live in the city with the (reportedly) highest number of | drug users (and dealers?) per capita in the country. | | So I don't know what to think about d-tartric acid seizure in | holland and belgium, and where the corresponding drug is sold, | but methamphetamine is definitively not a thing here. | photochemsyn wrote: | Chirality is an interesting topic, and controlled chiral | synthesis is pretty cutting-edge chemistry. The real masters of | this art are biological enzymes, i.e. the proteins that catalyze | all chemical reactions. A lot of the modern catalysts used in | chiral synthesis are themselves chiral, which is essentially | mimicing the biochemical approach. | | For this to work, however, the starting molecule needs to be what | called pro-chiral. For illustration, imagine a flat triangular | sheet of paper with three different elements at the points. How | could you only label one side of that sheet? Well, if you take a | copy of that triangle and glue one side to a table, then there's | only one orientation in which all three points of the other | triangle will make a one-to-one correspondence. This corresponds | to the enzyme (glued to the table) specifically binding the pro- | chiral molecule (i.e. a carbon atom with three different | substituents) and then the free surface of the triangle is where | the reaction takes place. | | I suppose someone could develop such a system for amphetamine | synthesis and it would qualify as 'green chemistry' (which really | just means producing the desired product without generating a | waste stream via a closed-loop process), and this might even be | how it's done in the legal pharmaceutical world today | (methamphetamine is sold as Desoxyn for ADHD treatment). There | are better things for chemists to put their time and energy | towards, in my opinion. | | As far as the legality and safety of drugs, it seems pretty clear | that criminalization just fills prisons while generating large | profits for organized crime cartels, with many associated | problems (i.e. violent crime), while not reducing the population | of drug addicts. A public health approach based on educating | people about the very negative health and social effects of drug | and alcohol addiction seems like the more reasonable approach. | Bans on advertising and promotion of drugs might be wise as well, | as has happened with tobacco and alcohol to some extent. | eternalban wrote: | Loved the author's writing style. He strikes a nearly perfect | balance of casual and humorous with precise domain jargon. | latchkey wrote: | Read his other pieces... he's been writing for 20 years now... | | https://www.science.org/blogs/pipeline?AfterYear=2003&AfterM... | | His 'Things I won't work with' posts are classics. | | https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/things-i-won-t-wor... | eternalban wrote: | Thanks! | VLM wrote: | The teaser line about ibuprofen synthesis is interesting because | he didn't put enough "tease" into it for non-chemists to | understand the kind of funny analogy. Superficially, one would | not expect that a "green" synthesis would start with HF acid, but | here it is anyway and it works. A "you gotta be kidding me" | moment that makes sense after thinking about it. | | I think that's the analogy he was trying to make in the article | that only chemists would "get" about the innovation of chiral | resolution, I have to admit the first time I read about that I | was like "you gotta be kidding" but after thinking, it makes | sense. | | I'm trying to think of a similar "you gotta be kidding" in CS/IT, | but its too early in the morning. | photochemsyn wrote: | "Green synthesis" in chemistry should probably be renamed. | "Closed-loop synthesis" is closer to what it's about. The | fundamental concept is that you're not producing any waste | products or unwanted side reactions, and all the reagents and | catalysts are recycled back to their original state at the end | of the reaction. | | This typically involves synthetic routes that start with small | molecules and build larger molecules from them in a specific | manner (rather than say, cleaving a large molecule and then | having to throw away part of it as waste). With something | highly reactive like HF acid, it might mean generating the HF | from a fluoride salt, using it in the reaction, then converting | any leftover HF back to the salt at then end of the process. | sitkack wrote: | That layout has more of an impact on perf than -O3 to -O1? | worik wrote: | Methamphetamine is a troubling drug. As difficult as vodka | socially, and much easier to consume. As a example of "better | living through chemistry" it is really a counter example. (I | think that was the point) | | But there are so many better examples: | | * MDMA | | _LSD | | _ Viagra | | * Methylphenidate | | MDMA in particular revolutionizes social interaction in the same | way as alcohol, with fewer health consequences, albethey not | zero. | | For some people Methylphenidate is a wonderful brain tonic. | (Ritalin) | | Better living through chemistry is possible. Professional labs, | quality control et etcetera are required, not prohibition and | sketchy underground chemists | Damogran6 wrote: | Great. Now I'm on a list. | | (Honestly, I find it interesting that things mentioned in the | article seem like plot points in the Vince Gilligan universe of | Netflix shows.) | nullc wrote: | There is a point in breaking bad where walt rants something | like "since our synthesis isn't stereospecific, explain how our | product is enantiomerically pure?" | kevinmchugh wrote: | Gilligan and crew did research. The economics of production are | important parts of the plot. | gavinray wrote: | The optical resolution of racemic amphetamine/methamphetamine has | been known for years. | | https://erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/amphetamine.res... | | What has surprised me is how infrequently it seems to be carried | out, given the materials required for it. | | This is all you need: | | - D-Tartaric Acid (You can buy it from import sites in bulk for | $30-60/kg) | | - Lye/Sodrium Hydroxide | | - Ethanol/Everclear (if you're converting meth, you'll also need | Methanol) | | - Glassware | | - Distilled Water | | The process is stupid-simple and takes a matter of hours, any | idiot could do it, and the difference it makes in effects | (racemic vs optically-pure D-Amphetamine vs D-Methamphetamine) is | obscene. | | It seems like many of the clandestine chemists are behind the | curve in the same way that LAMP-stack shops are in terms of the | HN crowd in tech. | | _Source: Originally was an organic chemistry major with an | intent to pursue psychopharmacology_ | logifail wrote: | > The process is stupid-simple and takes a matter of hours, any | idiot could do it, and the difference it makes in effects | (racemic vs optically-pure D-Amphetamine vs D-Methamphetamine) | is obscene | | (My organic chemistry is very rusty, and my knowledge of | amphetamines is non-existant.) | | I'm assuming from what you wrote that the D- enantiomer is one | you want. What does the L- enantiomer do, if anything? | gavinray wrote: | The L-enantiomer is actually readily available for purchase | over-the-counter. | | Vicks Vapor rub/inhalers and other decongestants use | L-methamphetamine. The D-enantiomer causes CNS stimulation. | The L-enantiomer causes only PNS (Peripheral Nervous System) | stimulation, so it produces no euphoria or enjoyable effects. | | Only unpleasant side effects, like tachycardia and anxiety, | etc. | | This is why racemic amphetamine/methamphetamine is so | (comparatively) unpleasant, and the pure D-enantiomer is | superior and "cleaner" feeling. | | Racemic amphetamines have a much higher chance of inducing | psychosis. | klipt wrote: | The active ingredients in Vicks Vapo Rub are just: | | Camphor | | Eucalyptus oil | | Menthol | | Perhaps you're thinking of a different Vicks product? | gavinray wrote: | Ah it's just the inhalers then, my mistake | | Another interesting one found in inhalers is | Propylhexedrine, from Benzedrex inhalers | programmer_dude wrote: | FWIW I find the Vicks Vapor rub fumes enjoyable and | euphoria inducing. Edit: I think it's the eucalyptus oil | that I am reacting to. | gpcr1949 wrote: | Agreed the process is very simple. The innovation that makes | the resolution worth it is (as Derek also mentioned in the blog | post) an efficient way to re-racemize the L-meth to DL-meth, | which can then be resolved again. With steady state production | and pooling this means it can be done using just one batch size | (and not ever smaller "brsm" style bathces). If these steps are | efficient enough you definitely get much more bang for your | buck. Here is one such method[0] which probably inspired these | drug manufacturers (as they use thioglycol and AIBN, which has | been found in clandestine lab seizures). | | [0] https://sci-hub.se/10.1021/jo061033l (published in JOC in | 2006 - so only a mere 2 decades behind the curve) | gavinray wrote: | Oh wow, now this is interesting. | | To ELI5 this, what the commenter is saying is that you can | take the "useless" L-Meth, and convert it to racemic, mixed | D/L Meth. | | Which you can then perform a second resolution step on, to | convert/purify further, to the opposite chirality and get | D-Meth. | | The very interesting thing about this (if I were a | clandestine chemist, or someone who wanted to get high at | home), is that: | | - AIBN is a readily available reagent, it's not difficult to | acquire or would put you on any lists. This is in comparison | to much of what you need for other synthesis techniques | | - You can buy L-Meth legally over the counter. The extraction | process would be a bit of a mess (quite literally) but should | be doable, some basic recrystallization and/or conversion to | freebase. | [deleted] | j_m_b wrote: | It's interesting to note that as methamphetamine and amphetamine | were more regulated in the 50s and 60s, it became more prevalent. | Then in order to stamp out illegal production, the precursor | chemicals were monitored. So what happens? Production becomes | more dangerous. | | Solution: Just make every kind of drug legal to produce, but | regulate the purity. Be very explicit about the dangers. The only | thing prohibition does is make drug consumption and production | dangerous and needlessly expensive. | nobody9999 wrote: | >It's interesting to note that as methamphetamine and | amphetamine were more regulated in the 50s and 60s, it became | more prevalent. | | My step-mother noted that she was _prescribed_ amphetamines | during all three of her pregnancies (late 50s, early 60s) for | "weight control." | | Which, these days, seems crazy. | | That said, I'd note that none of my step-brothers seem to have | been negatively affected by in-utero exposure to amphetamines. | Alex3917 wrote: | > It's interesting to note that as methamphetamine and | amphetamine were more regulated in the 50s and 60s, it became | more prevalent. | | ~0.2% of Americans had ever used marijuana when it was first | made illegal, whereas ~90% of American adults have used it now. | pstuart wrote: | Preach! | | Tax it, regulate it, educate on it. | | Society is okay with harmful recreational drugs (i.e., alcohol | and tobacco), so let's start having grown up conversations | about the other ones too. | | Yes, they can and will be abused but that is a health issue, | not a criminal one. | PragmaticPulp wrote: | > It's interesting to note that as methamphetamine and | amphetamine were more regulated in the 50s and 60s, it became | more prevalent | | This is an extreme example of "correlation does not equal | causation" | | The regulation came from the expanding popularity of these | drugs. It didn't cause it. | | Likewise, regulating precursor chemicals wasn't some causative | factor in further drug use. It was the next level of | regulations added in response to the increasing drug use. | | Regulations and limited availability don't cause more people to | use drugs. That's not only an illogical conclusion, it ignores | the order of how things happened. | | The increased availability of fentanyl has been a driving force | in more people using opioids in general. Note that most people | aren't seeking out fentanyl (though many are), they believe | themselves to be purchasing more traditional opioids. The | increased availability of fake pills has definitely increased | opioid use. The idea that opening the floodgates to more access | will somehow _decrease_ usage is inconsistent with evidence and | inconsistent with reality. It also just doesn't make sense. | scythe wrote: | >It's interesting to note that as methamphetamine and | amphetamine were more regulated in the 50s and 60s, it became | more prevalent. Then in order to stamp out illegal production, | the precursor chemicals were monitored. So what happens? | Production becomes more dangerous. | | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giffen_good | | Methamphetamine wasn't the only drug being regulated in the | '50s and '60s. The other stimulants, like cocaine, were | restricted at the same time. But methamphetamine is by far the | hardest drug to regulate, so its relative prevalence increases. | | >Solution: Just make every kind of drug legal to produce, but | regulate the purity. | | This is suboptimal. Recreational stimulants are not all the | same level of dangerous. (Which would be an incredible | coincidence.) The better solution is to find the safer | stimulants (possibly variants of methylphenidate) and allow | those to be used recreationally, hopefully cutting into the | demand for the really bad stuff. | hn_throwaway_99 wrote: | I'm generally in favor of drug legalization and/or | decriminalization, but I'd draw a line at meth. There is a | reason for the "Meth, not even once" PSAs and memes. The drug | is really just _that addictive_ that it can ruin people 's | lives by getting them hooked after just one session. | | Even if you disagree with my stance, I think it would be a | grave mistake to not acknowledge that different drugs have | different capacities for harm, and the fact is that the | addictive nature of meth makes its harm potential astronomical. | photochemsyn wrote: | The amphetamines are all similarly addictive, it's just that | methamphetamine is more active at smaller doses. This general | class of drugs is widely prescribed to children and adults to | treat ADHD in the United States (many argue over-prescribed). | | People who use amphetamines 'recreationally' seem to mix it | with alcohol, with very bad long-term effects on health. It | also seems to drive people towards reckless and poorly- | considered behavior, which is similar to the effect cocaine | has on many people. | | It's a wise life decision to not associate with cocaine and | amphetamine addicts, certainly. However it is also curious | that people in treatment for ADHD also develop a dependency | on the drug, although perhaps in a more controlled manner due | to it being prescribed, yet few people in the medical- | pharmacological world seem to be that concerned about it. | _a_a_a_ wrote: | "The amphetamines are all similarly addictive" oh, you mean | like pseudoephedrine (sold as sudafed) and crystal meth? | Blatantly they are not. | photochemsyn wrote: | I think the comparison you want to look at is Adderall | vs. methamphetamine. Incidentally, addicts can't tell the | difference between the two drugs if ingested in pill form | at the same relative dosage. This is comparable to how | opiate addiction works; an addict can't tell the | difference between morphine and heroin, it just takes | twice as much morphine to get the same effect. | _a_a_a_ wrote: | I suspect you don't know what you're talking about. Have | you any actual experience with drugs? Because I can tell | the difference between MDMA and various somethings sold | as MDMA but aren't, and I'm hardly a drug expert. | | Again, have you any decent experience with drugs? | TeMPOraL wrote: | > _However it is also curious that people in treatment for | ADHD also develop a dependency on the drug, although | perhaps in a more controlled manner due to it being | prescribed, yet few people in the medical-pharmacological | world seem to be that concerned about it._ | | Dose makes the difference. The kind of dependency people | with ADHD develop on their meds is closer to the kind a | person with mobility issues develops on their wheelchair | after spending some time using it. | starkd wrote: | Libertarians tend to take potential solutions to the extreme, | but seldom is anything so ideologically pure. Still, the idea | that government can protect people from themselves is a | noxious one. Drug legalization is an attractive one for that | reason alone, but there are limits. Drug addicts are by | definition not rational actors. | rubicon33 wrote: | Presumably they were at one time a "rational actor". Before | the drugs. | wahnfrieden wrote: | the question isn't whether or not a substance should be in | use in a society, but whether its users/producers should be | caged | porknubbins wrote: | Yes as libertarian who was offended by the idea of | regulating what adults can put in their bodies at home, I | have changed my mind after seeing real world consequences. | As a young college student its easy to believe some kind of | naive model of humans as basically well-intentioned or | rational or at least a blank slate. Experience tells me | that most illegal drug (and heavy alcohol) use has negative | externalities and tends to harm the character of the user | over time. An assertion younger me would have probably | found offensively moralistic (what is "character" anyway?) | but here we are. | water554 wrote: | So you've decided to support an ideology that restricts | the freedom of all people to do as they please because | you think it's harmful for them. I've decided >20g per | day of carbs is harmful for people that choose to do it. | Watch out buddy I'm going for bread pasta etc... I don't | think people should be able to eat it. I'm coming for | your rights. | porknubbins wrote: | I think that as a policy matter it is better for society | to create an exception to the rule of complete bodily | autonomy, mostly because of harm to people around the | user. I don't think users should get jail time but some | penalties are ok. This is partly based on personal | experience and partially on stats like increasing DUI | rates post cannabis legalization. I don't see much of a | slippery slope argument to be made from psychoactive | drugs to carbs, which are a basic nutrient anyone can | find anywhere. | starkd wrote: | You just described my history on the subject. I once | believed that too. | _a_a_a_ wrote: | > There is a reason for the "Meth, not even once" PSAs and | memes. The drug is really just that addictive that it can | ruin people's lives by getting them hooked after just one | session. | | If you believe the propaganda - memes are not a quality | source of information. You need to be less willing to repeat | what you've heard sand more willing to dig out the facts. The | same is said of crack ("one hit and you're hooked") but it's | a lie. I've spent several full evenings smoking it and I am | not going back to it. To some people, maybe one shot and then | doom, but to most it's an incremental downward slope | depending on many factors. Not denying crack is a bastard and | I would probably not support legalising it either, but please | don't parrot back rubbish you've been told. | | If this is _still_ the level of HN debate ion drugs, to | repeat soundbite anti-drug propaganda, I feel we 're getting | nowhere and burning a lot of fuel doing it. | djha-skin wrote: | This implies that the dangerous production is the fault of the | government. It is the fault of those who want to produce it. | They are making bad choices. A responsible government should | not make it easy to make bad choices. | uptownJimmy wrote: | "They are making bad choices." | | This sort of reductionist, simplistic "reasoning" is going to | be the death of us all. | | Trying to find a moral failing in every human weakness, every | human ignorance, every human desperation? It's just | disgusting. | anonymoushn wrote: | Sure, and prohibition also didn't cause any harm to people | who didn't drink, mandating the addition of poison to rubbing | alcohol using legislation doesn't cause anyone to be | poisoned, etc. | nibbleshifter wrote: | You are implying there is anything inherently bad about | amphetamines. | cjbgkagh wrote: | I think that if we legalize dangerous addictive drugs then we | might as well legalize all medications/drugs by which point the | medical establishment loses a big chunk of the income that it | gets from being a monopoly supplier. | | I wish society was mature enough for full legalization, but | often those pushing for legalization underplay the negative | problems associated with drug use. Particularly for that | 'harmless plant' marijuana. A university acquaintance went | acute schizophrenic shortly after developing a pot habit, that | could be a coincidence but the timing is suspicious. A second | cousin became mentally retarded immediately after smoking a | joint. He's now a 30 year old who can't tie his own shoes. | | Big businesses already have enough power to shape politics, | we're still in the process of stamping out cigarettes. I've | noticed a lot of smoking on Netflix so clearly they're still | working on a comeback. How long until they put coke back into | Coca-Cola and funding scientific studies about how a bump a day | is actually good for you. | | Then there is the seriousness of surreptitiously giving someone | an addictive substance, to put the hook into them, which I | consider to be interfering to the working of the brain and akin | to murder. At the moment the focus is around the drug being | illegal as opposed to the deleterious effect it can have. | Criminal gangs use this tactic fairly frequently as an | alternative to killing someone but I believe it should solicit | the same punishment. | gumby wrote: | > I think that if we legalize dangerous addictive drugs then | we might as well legalize all medications/drugs by which | point the medical establishment loses a big chunk of the | income that it gets from being a monopoly supplier. | | Do you seriously think this is why medication is regulated? | | In most developed countries prescribing and dispensing are | separated (doctor/pharmacy) in part to prevent this. Japan is | a notable exception and guess what: more drugs are prescribed | per capita there than the rest of the OECD. | cjbgkagh wrote: | I would include pharmacy in the medical establishment, and | yes I expect them to place significant lobby pressure to | maintain their monopoly. | pantalaimon wrote: | > those pushing for legalization underplay the negative | problems associated with drug use | | But those problems already exist and are amplified by the | prohibition. | | I don't understand how prohibitionists still believe that the | ban on drugs would make drug use disappear when the last 80 | years of prohibition completely failed at that. | | It's clear that prohibition does not work. But if we just try | long enough it might? That's not science, that's ideology. | cjbgkagh wrote: | Prohibition on supply just increases the prices which | encourages more people to jump into the market. For | prohibition to be effective there needs to be strong | punishments on consumption. | | As someone who consumes quite a large amount of gray and | black market medicine I'm actually pro-legalization of all | drugs. I hate the medical monopoly and the overbearing | government. But I also think people need to be very honest | and frank about the consequences of legalization. | | My concern, beyond what happens to other people, is that | I'll have to check the ingredient label for a longer list | of substances I don't want in my body. We have enough food | fraud as it is with suppliers lying about the content, I | want it to be an extremely serious crime to add drugs to | food. | awillen wrote: | A lot of people who are against legalization make this | argument that those who are for it ignore the negative | consequences, but for large swathes of pro-legalization | people, that's just not true. I know there are negative | consequences, and I know that in a very small number of | people marijuana can cause serious consequences (and in | larger numbers of people, harder drugs like cocaine and | heroin can cause more serious consequences). | | But the fact that things can cause negative consequences is | not sufficient reason to ban them. The obvious example here | is alcohol - it is beyond clear from data that alcohol is | incredibly harmful. It is beyond clear that it is more | harmful than at least some banned substances (marijuana, LSD, | MDMA). It is likely that it is more harmful than harder | substances like cocaine, but with less data on those we can't | say for sure. | | So yes, there are negative consequences, but as a society we | have decided that we allow people to do things that cause | negative consequences (as evidenced by the legality of | alcohol). There are limits on that, but with alcohol as a | line by which to judge those limits, it's clear that to have | any kind of coherent public policy, marijuana should be | legal. Or, of course, alcohol could be made illegal. The | point is that if you think that alcohol should be legal but | other drugs should not, you're just engaging in hypocrisy. | cjbgkagh wrote: | * I did use the qualifier 'often' which is not 'all' and to | my opinion it's not enough. People readily forget the | downsides and need constant reminders. | | Edit: please note that the following includes the qualifier | "most" and please understand that this does not mean "all". | | I think alcohol is a bad example as alcohol for most people | has a way of punishing abuse on its own and quickly thereby | maintaining a tight association between the high and the | hangover. The aversion to the hangover means that for most | people it's a self correcting problem. Most other drugs | don't come with this and the association between the high | and negative consequences are more remote and infrequent. | | I think alcohol, despite the obvious and extensive damage | it causes, is a great training drug that teaches most | people moderation through first hand experience and | encourages caution with other drugs. | | Using alcohol as an example kinda makes the case for | prohibiting alcohol as opposed to legalizing other drugs. | nobody9999 wrote: | >Using alcohol as an example kinda makes the case for | prohibiting alcohol as opposed to legalizing other drugs. | | We tried that[0] in the United States, and it was an | unmitigated disaster. | | [0] https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendm | ent-18/ | awillen wrote: | I encourage you to actually do some research on | alcoholism - both the number of people it affects as well | as the way it prevents itself. You're dangerously | uninformed on the topic to be presenting these kinds of | opinions. | starkd wrote: | oh, come on! I think you're right on this issue, but | since when are opinions dangerous? He's giving his honest | opinion of the issue according to his experience. | | You will be much more effective if you simply try to | enjoy the conversation than trying to call out people for | having "dangerous opinions". | awillen wrote: | You put quotes around "dangerous opinions" - you're wrong | to do that, because I never used that phrase. I said he | was dangerously uninformed. | | There are times when people can have valid, personal | opinions and times when there's just objective reality. | Some people these days say that their opinion is that the | 2020 election was stolen. That's not a valid opinion - | it's just wrong. Saying that hangovers make alcohol self- | regulating when >10M people in the US are alcoholics (for | whom it is, as a point of fact, untrue that alcohol is a | self-regulating substance) is not a valid opinion - it's | a misunderstanding of reality. | | As someone who knows people who have been very severely | negatively affected by alcoholism, I do not enjoy | conversations with people who make points about alcohol | that are totally uninformed and suggest that we should | base policy around those uninformed thoughts. | starkd wrote: | I just think you would enjoy the conversation more if | your experience was not dependent on someone else's | opinion. You are also assuming something about another | person that is more than likely untrue. Sounds like a | horrible way to live. | | No offense to you, but who named you the arbitrator of | "valid opinions"? I doubt you are that arrogant in | person, but you sure are coming off that way. | cjbgkagh wrote: | Most =/ all. For some it doesn't work this way and that | is very costly to us all. Hence the great deal of damage | that it causes. I'm not sure what point you're trying to | make, is alcohol too dangerous therefore we must legalize | more drugs? | awillen wrote: | The point is that we should have a coherent policy in the | US around how we treat drugs. | | Either we should accept a certain threshold of danger | around drug use and allow all drugs under that threshold | to be used (with appropriate regulation), or we should | not accept the use of dangerous drugs and should outlaw | them. | | Right now, US drug policy is that a fairly dangerous drug | (alcohol) is not legal, while other clearly less | dangerous drugs (marijuana, most hallucinogens, MDMA, | etc.) are not legal. It should be changed to be a | rational policy in which everything less dangerous than | alcohol is legal or a policy in which alcohol is not | legal. | cjbgkagh wrote: | If anything I think perhaps reducing the legal age for | drinking in the US. Where I'm from getting black out | drunk is considered immature and people are expected to | grow out of it, but then we start a lot earlier. Plus we | learn how to handle alcohol * before we learn how to | drive so it's not considered matcho to drink and drive. I | think cigarette companies like the 3 year gap of being | able to buy cigarettes but not alcohol. | | I'm pretty pro legalization, I think it's probably best | handled at the cultural level, but until society matures | there is going to a fair bit of collateral damage and I | think we should be honest about that. | | * it's a generalization... obviously it doesn't work out | this way for everyone. | nobody9999 wrote: | >The point is that we should have a coherent policy in | the US around how we treat drugs. | | But we _have_ had a coherent policy around drugs in the | US: | | 1. Identify a potential issue with a particular drug; | | 2. Investigate the issues and examine the evidence; | | 3. Create a set of policy solutions to address the | issues; | | 4. Pick the _least_ effective, _most_ harmful policy | solution and implement that. | | 5. Profit! | | All you have to do is look at all the major drug | legislation over the past 130 years or so to see that | such is, in fact, the case. | starkd wrote: | I'm not so sure about that. If you've ever talked with a | full-blown alcoholic, the allure of drinking is almost a | reflex with no consideration for its effects. I don't | think they even remember having to lie in their own vomit | or the severe hangover they will have to endure. The | hangover is enough of a deterrent for myself, but they | don't even think twice about it. Its amazing, really. | | I'm convinced the only reason alcohol is legal is because | it is culturally embedded. If it were being introduced | anew, it would be prohibited. Its far worse than most | illegal drugs. | cjbgkagh wrote: | I didn't think I'd have to follow up a post on using a | qualifier "often" with another post about using a | different qualifier "most" which obviously doesn't | encompass "all". Counter examples are clearly presumed | necessary given the aforementioned damage. | starkd wrote: | I understand your point that most people who drink | alcohol do not become alcoholics. But that is true for | all drugs, really. I think the thing that separates | alcohol is the long cultural acceptance. | amanaplanacanal wrote: | And the US tried that, and it was a complete failure. Yet | we as a society somehow failed to learn that lesson and | here we are. | cjbgkagh wrote: | At no point did I advocate prohibition of alcohol, I am | suggesting that others pointing out the incredible harm | alcohol does doesn't do a great job in making the case | that more drugs should be legal. | photochemsyn wrote: | I disagree entirely with this viewpoint - alcohol is one | of the most dangerous and addictive substances available, | with serious long-term health consequences. While the | opiate epidemic has made a lot of headlines, CDC data | IIRC points to the alcohol resulting in the premature | deaths of about five times as many people (not by direct | overdose as with opiates, but via associated medical | conditions like liver failure). | | Alcohol has a complex set of biochemical effects, but | note that part of the issue is that it's similar to | opiates, i.e. it triggers the release of an endorphin- | like molecule that people get addicted to in the same way | as with morphine or heroin. | | I still don't think alcohol should be made illegal, but | in terms of long-term medical effects, it's certainly | more dangerous than cannabis/THC and psychedelic drugs | like mushrooms/psilocybine. It really belongs in the same | class with amphetamines, cocaine, benzos, and opiates. | jeltz wrote: | If alcohol is one of the most addictive substances around | I do not think we need to worry too much. Alcohol is | actually not very addictive. Most people can drink | regularly drink large amounts of alcohol without feeling | the least bit of addiction. | | Alcohol is very bad for your health and it is a horrible | thing to be addicted to but it is not very addictive. | photochemsyn wrote: | The mechanism of alcohol addiction is well known and | studied, and alcohol is certainly in the same addictive | potential class as cocaine, heroin, nicotine and | amphetamines. | starkd wrote: | That's why it should be mostly about protecting the youth | who are more likely to be uninformed about dangers. It is | true that outright prohibition is pointless, but it can | introduce a bit of friction that forces users to have to | put in a little effort in order to try it. Because of the | effort, it is more of a deliberate decision. | awillen wrote: | Absolutely - education and regulation are much more | effective strategies than prohibition along pretty much | every dimension. We've drawn the very reasonable line | that young people whose brains are still developing don't | get alcohol, and of course we should extend that standard | to other drugs. | GoldenRacer wrote: | The only problem I see with legalizing all prescription drugs | is that a lot of people would use them off label or in | inappropriate context (ie taking antibiotics when you have a | viral infection). | | I think this could be managed with an appropriate regularity | framework that I think should probably apply to psychoactive | drugs as well. This would be some sort of licensing system. | Anyone can get a license to buy antibiotics but it requires | taking class and passing a test that demonstrates you | understand the risks and agreeing to follow certain rules and | procedures. A procedure for antibiotics might be that you | agree you'll only purchase them if you have tested positive | for a bacterial infection. All drugs should only be purchased | for yourself (unless you have a distribution license which | should be more difficult to get). If you get caught breaking | any of those rules, you lose your license for some period of | time and are subject to other penalties. | | I think for something like antibiotics, no one would bother | getting licenses as it's not worth the time of getting and | keeping your license up to date (licenses would likely | require annual renewal and continuing education). You'd just | go through your doctor the couple times a decade you need | them. But this could be hugely beneficial for a diabetic | person that doesn't want to go to a doctor once a month to | get their insulin prescription renewed. Or women that want | birth control without paying doctor fees. Yes, it would | result in less revenue going to our medical system but that | seems like a plus side in those cases. | | I don't deny that some drugs are incredibly dangerous but our | society allows a lot of dangerous activities. If I want to | buy a BASE jumping rig, I could do that and then start | legally jumping off of cliffs with it as soon as it arrived. | My chances of dying doing that are far higher than my chances | of dying while taking most drugs (maybe some like fentanyl | are exceptions). Would you consider whoever sold me the rig a | murderer? Or do you think I'm an adult and should be allowed | to make my own decisions as long as they're well informed? | cjbgkagh wrote: | surreptitiously - adverb in a way that attempts to avoid | notice or attention; secretively. "Mary surreptitiously | slipped from the room" | | i.e. it was something done to you without informing you. To | use your analogy it would be like blind folding someone and | pushing them off a cliff (with base jumping gear on) if | they lived I'd consider that at least attempted murder. But | with secretly giving drugs to someone there is no way to | avoid interference with the workings of a sound mind so | that I think is on par with murder. | GoldenRacer wrote: | I thought you were implying companies adding addictive | substance to their products in attempt to get people | hooked which I thought a regulatory framework would fix. | If coke puts cocaine back in their drink, it would | require a license to buy so they wouldn't be able to do | it without informing people. | | Are you actually talking about something more akin to | date rape? I'm really not sure if I understand how that | might work. You slip someone opioids without them knowing | until they're addicted and then you stop but reveal to | them they're addicted to opioids hoping they continue | that addiction? Or do you stop once they're addicted and | just hope they figure it out? Or you just keep feeding | their addiction without them knowing until you feed them | a dose they OD on? | cjbgkagh wrote: | > Criminal gangs use this tactic fairly frequently as an | alternative to killing someone but I believe it should | solicit the same punishment. | | Criminal gangs tend to take the more active holding | people down and injecting people with drugs approach than | the slow sneaky process. But once addicted the addict is | now reliant on the gang for their continued supply and | can be controlled. The real life instances I'm aware of | was done on people who were preparing to testify against | their family members in a gang. It was a speedball | injection. But is has been depicted in fiction such as in | the move 'the town'. | | My relatives were involved in sheltering them to get them | clean, but as soon as they went home the gang found them | and got them addicted again. | GoldenRacer wrote: | Gotcha. I guess I don't understand why you'd expect that | behavior to become more common as a result of drug | legalization. | | All that would still be very illegal (I imagine injecting | someone with even a completely safe saline solution | without their consent would be considered assault in most | jurisdictions). The type of people that are comfortable | doing that clearly don't care about the law. I just don't | see drugs being illegal as a limiting factor on crimes of | that nature in today's society. | | I'd also like to mention that a major source of funding | for many criminal gangs is the black market sale of | drugs. If we legalized and regulated drugs, they'd lose | that source of money and I'd personally expect to see a | decline in organized crime. | cjbgkagh wrote: | Safe saline is the least of the victims worries, water | quality isn't that important to the extent that many safe | injection packs no longer include it. Tap water is | usually fine, puddle water is usually fine. In medical | settings the law of large numbers mean that usually isn't | good enough but for one offs it's 'usually' ok. | | It's the action of adding chemicals to your brain that | can and likely do have harmful long term effects, not | limited to addiction, and many still unknown. If such an | act was done to me I would consider it within my rights | to kill that person in retribution. | | I'm less confident on the expected drop in organized | crime as taxes on the drugs usually means there is now | money in tax evasion. Without tax it may become so cheap | that other problems start to dominate. | GoldenRacer wrote: | The whole point of bringing up saline solutions was to | point out that what you're describing is already illegal | even for much less serious offenses. I'm not a lawyer so | don't know what all crimes would be involved with | injecting drugs into someone against their will but I'm | willing to bet money it is breaking several. | | As for illegal drug sales persisting despite | legalization, how many people are still buying illegal | moonshine? It does exist, I've seen it, but it's not | nearly the problem it was during prohibition. | cjbgkagh wrote: | Despite being illegal forcibly getting someone addicted | isn't treated seriously at all. Unlike murder where there | is a missing person or a body to show that a crime has | taken place you with forced addiction you now have the | addicts word which is considered inherently unreliable. | | I'm more worried about organized crime/political | corruption than I am about freely available drugs, but | organized crime has all sorts of ways to make money so I | don't think we'll be rid of it that easily. I think | people underestimate the prevalence of how much | corruption still exists. I even think it'll get worse as | fewer non-compromised people want to take police jobs. | | Also prohibition ended 1933 but the major crackdown on | gangsters was in 1970 due to a long period of federal | government inaction. | vidarh wrote: | Antibiotics would be far worse to deregulate than even the | hardest recreational drugs, because widespread flawed use | would _harm other people_ at scale by promoting drug | resistent strains. | | I think legalisation ought to be driven largely evidence of | harm, not just by abuse of the drugs, but systemic harm | both of legalisation vs. criminalization, but with a | reasonably high level of ability to take personal risk. | | E.g. for drugs where we know addiction drives crime, even | fairly substantial harm from the drug itself might still | mean legalisation is a net gain. Heroin might fit in that | bucket (a small UK trial with prescribing it saw offending | rates for those in the trial drop dramatically, and so | reducing net harm to society). | | At the same time high risk may justify a high degree of | regulation of specific drugs to ensure people are at least | aware of the dangers, and aim to reduce recruitment. | nobody9999 wrote: | >Antibiotics would be far worse to deregulate than even | the hardest recreational drugs, because widespread flawed | use would harm other people at scale by promoting drug | resistent strains. | | That particular cat is well out of the bag as, according | to the WHO[0], a full 1/3 of antibiotics users obtained | their last doses _without_ a prescription. In fact, many | countries (unlike the US) don 't require prescriptions | for antibiotics. | | Which really sucks, as antibiotic resistance will | (barring some serious scientific breakthrough(s)) likely | be a huge problem over the next century or so. | | I don't have a good answer WRT that, but agree with much | of what you wrote. | | [0] https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/21-11-2022-1-in- | 3-use-a... | blanketlamp wrote: | > A university acquaintance went acute schizophrenic shortly | after developing a pot habit, that could be a coincidence but | the timing is suspicious. | | Early adulthood is when mental illness often sets in, | especially illness like Schizophrenia. You're implying cause | one way without considering the other likely alternatives: | | 1) Your acquaintance started smoking a lot of pot _because | of_ the onset of early schizophrenia symptoms as a coping | mechanism. | | 2) They are unrelated and early adulthood is just when people | experiment more with drugs, and also when conditions like | Schizophrenia start to manifest. | | > A second cousin became mentally retarded immediately after | smoking a joint. He's now a 30 year old who can't tie his own | shoes. | | I don't know what to say to this other than nobody's ever | established an even remotely plausible link between these two | things, assuming you aren't being hyperbolic. | starkd wrote: | If I'm not mistaken, I believe there is a strong causal | link between marijuana and schizoid type effects. I don't | think this is even disputed. Maybe he was predisposed to it | anyway, but the marijuana certainly did not help. | annoyingnoob wrote: | https://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/schizophrenia- | marijuana-... | cjbgkagh wrote: | "that could be a coincidence" is a qualifier that includes | the points you brought up. | | A friend of my 2nd cousin smoked a joint from the same | stash and no such effect so it's clearly a combination of | marijuana and the individual. Unfortunately such | experiments are hardly repeatable in a clinical setting, | he's not the only one, it's happened to number of people. | One of the other mothers was collecting stories to try to | turn into a book, give me a minute and I'll try to find it. | | Edit: it may take me a while to find it, I think it ended | up getting published but it wasn't something I paid much | attention to. I've only met my second cousin and his family | once and a very long time ago. | lrem wrote: | > I don't know what to say to this other than nobody's ever | established an even remotely plausible link between these | two things, assuming you aren't being hyperbolic. | | This one's simple: unless they, or someone they know, grew | the plant themselves, there is no practical way to know | what really went into the joint. I've witnessed people | having hallucinations after a joint, which seems unlikely | with cannabis. | cjbgkagh wrote: | I've had hallucinations from pot that I've grown from | seeds myself. As have others from the same pot. It was | extremely strong hydro grown under stress, the bud | glistened. | nibbleshifter wrote: | > I think that if we legalize dangerous addictive drugs then | we might as well legalize all medications/drugs by which | point the medical establishment loses a big chunk of the | income that it gets from being a monopoly supplier. | | Yes, absolutely. | nobody9999 wrote: | >Solution: Just make every kind of drug legal to produce, but | regulate the purity. Be very explicit about the dangers. The | only thing prohibition does is make drug consumption and | production dangerous and needlessly expensive. | | Absolutely. As is made pretty obvious here[0][1]. | | [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/07/health/fentanyl- | xylazine-... | | [1] Archive link: https://archive.is/Sv27y | jeffreyrogers wrote: | There have been countries like China in the Opium Wars period | that had limited restrictions on drug consumption. It ended up | with a substantial fraction of their population being addicted | to opium and basically non-productive. | | HN is full of smart people who (wrongly I think) assume that | because they have the self-control and discipline to either | avoid drugs or to use them relatively safely that the rest of | the population does too. This does not seem true in my | experience. I forget the exact stats but roughly 1 in 20 | Americans is an alcoholic, and that's with a drug that humans | have been consuming for thousands of years and that has | established social rituals around consumption. It seems likely | to me that increasing access to and decreasing stigma of highly | addictive drugs like opioids or amphetamines will lead to | substantial increases in addiction rates. | _a_a_a_ wrote: | > and that's with a drug [...] that has established social | rituals around consumption | | You're missing something vital, that those social rituals are | often supportive of alcohol consumption. In the UK "beer or | queer" (= drink up or there's summat wrong with you"). | Alcohol abuse is as much an embedded social problem as a | personal one. Who hasn't tried to force another drink on | someone who's clearly had too much? To my regret even I have. | | On top of that, just look at alcohol advertising everywhere. | It should be banned. | nobody9999 wrote: | >HN is full of smart people who (wrongly I think) assume that | because they have the self-control and discipline to either | avoid drugs or to use them relatively safely that the rest of | the population does too. This does not seem true in my | experience. I forget the exact stats but roughly 1 in 20 | Americans is an alcoholic, and that's with a drug that humans | have been consuming for thousands of years and that has | established social rituals around consumption. It seems | likely to me that increasing access to and decreasing stigma | of highly addictive drugs like opioids or amphetamines will | lead to substantial increases in addiction rates. | | IMHO, that's a little reductive. The primary issue isn't | use/abuse of such substances. Rather, it's the | _criminalization_ of use /abuse that's the biggest problem. | | I say that because putting someone in jail because they have | a problem with substance abuse doesn't make _any_ sense. I 'd | add that providing comprehensive treatment for those who have | such issues would be less than half the cost of interdiction, | enforcement and incarceration. | | What's more, both the substance abuse _and_ legal issues | /incarceration limits the economic potential of those who | have resolved their issues due to stigmatization of those | with criminal records. | | I'll go even farther and say that drug prohibition (as we saw | with the 18th Amendment[0]) creates black markets, and since | there are no _legal_ avenues to address disputes, and begets | violence on a wide scale, further depressing economic output | and social cohesion. | | I don't disagree that substance abuse brings misery to many | -- but penalizing those who use such substances without them | negatively impacting their lives with legal issues and | potential violence seems way too extreme. | | If we invested USD$10-15 billion a year (as compared with | ~USD$50 billion on "drug enforcement") into the resources | required to provide treatment for anyone who wants/needs it, | and legalize/regulate all "drugs", will save money, increase | economic output and improve social cohesion. | | It's a win/win/win if you ask me. | _a_a_a_ wrote: | > It ended up with a substantial fraction of their population | being addicted to opium and basically non-productive. | | Do you have any evidence of this? I don't believe this to be | true from general reading, but can't back it up. My | rcollection is that the workers would work hard during the | day then smoke opium in the evenings. | jeffreyrogers wrote: | This article claims 27% of the adult male population were | addicts in 1906 (5% of total population): https://sci- | hub.se/10.1007/s10571-007-9225-2. | | They don't specifically mention work output but I find it | hard to believe that opium addicts were particularly | productive in most jobs. I don't think China was very | industrialized at the time so I doubt what we would today | conceptualize as a "worker" was a substantial fraction of | the population at that time. | _a_a_a_ wrote: | Thankls. I'm a little cautious if this as it relentlessly | uses he word 'abuse' instead of 'use', as if it has made | up it's mind already. | | I also found this, which _may_ disagree: | https://academic.oup.com/book/32900/chapter- | abstract/2766221... | | The 'Problem' of Opium Smoking in Canton Virgil K.Y. Ho | | Abstract | | Both the causes of opium consumption, and the allegedly | calamitous social, political, economic, and cultural | impact of opium smoking on Cantonese society were greatly | exaggerated in official propaganda and scholarly | writings. Opium served Canton and its urban inhabitants | many positive social, cultural, economic, and political | purposes, making it difficult to over-simplify the | phenomenon of opium smoking as nothing but pernicious. | | "but I find it hard to believe that opium addicts were | particularly productive in most jobs" | | well maybe, but do you have any experience with this | other than feeling? Same has been said of dope smokers, | but many are productive. Also in china a few centuries | ago there was no welfare state and for most, no work = no | food = beg or starve. So as a non-productive person, you | didn't live too long (edit: to be fair, this is just my | assumption. I may be wrong). | | Abit more, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium#Recre | ational_use_in_Chin... that suggests something very | different: | | It is important to note that "recreational use" of opium | was part of a civilized and mannered ritual, akin to an | East Asian tea ceremony, prior to the extensive | prohibitions that came later.[50] In places of gathering, | often tea shops, or a person's home servings of opium | were offered as a form of greeting and politeness. [...] | The image of seedy underground, destitute smokers were | often generated by anti-opium narratives and became a | more accurate image of opium use following the effects of | large scale opium prohibition in the 1880s.[50][51] | jeffreyrogers wrote: | > well maybe, but do you have any experience with this | other than feeling? Same has been said of dope smokers, | but many are productive. Also in china a few centuries | ago there was no welfare state and for most, no work = no | food = beg or starve. So as a non-productive person, you | didn't live too long | | Not with opium smokers but I have some familiarity with | opioid users and they are generally not good workers. Of | course maybe there are tons of opioid users who pass as | totally functional people and so I don't recognize them, | but I doubt that. Marijuana is also clearly not addictive | in the same way as opioids are (perhaps it is slightly | addictive and maybe more so now that it has become | stronger). It seems to be more like caffeine where its | use is ritualized but people don't have a very hard time | with cessation if forced to. I would bet daily users of | cannabis are significantly less productive than the | average population, but I know a couple in high | performance jobs, so it's certainly not guaranteed. | | I imagine in the China of the early 1900s many of the | opium users did die just as many heroin/fentanyl users | today do. I have talked to addicts who expect to die of | their drug addiction and openly say so. | _a_a_a_ wrote: | A fair and measured answer, thanks. | alpineidyll3 wrote: | Adderall anyone? There's a panoply of legal ways to obtain | amphetamines, but the US medical system is far less competent | at customer service than the black market due to regulatory | capture. | | I think it's critical to appreciate that Physician Regulations, | the AMA, etc. are the main culprits here. How they avoid | getting properly blamed for things like the opioid epidemic, I | have no idea. | brookst wrote: | I suspect that most people who understand the role AMA plays | in prohibition and drug abuse also aren't super interested in | focusing on blame. The whole thing is a complicated system of | perverse incentives and counterproductive policies. It | doesn't really matter if the AMA is 20% or 60% to blame. | alpineidyll3 wrote: | Blame is a poor choice of words. Ideally we could stop | letting physicians write their own regulations, and instead | have at least one mechanism with incentive to promote | national health, rather than the medical industry complex. | starkd wrote: | Traditionally, doctors, as men of science, have been | given wide latitude to prescribe, since there is no one | treatment that is good for everyone. Unfortunately, that | seems to be changing, as doctors are expected to adhere | to a standard regimen of treatment options. It is the | dangers of institutionalization of our healthcare. | alpineidyll3 wrote: | Calling doctors men of science is extraordinarily | generous. Scientists do things like collect data to test | hypotheses. | | The ama lobbies aggressively against national medical | record standardization etc. | | At the end of the day, it's about whether the person | making decisions has good incentives. And that's not the | case in the present system. | starkd wrote: | I was being a bit facetious in using the term, but that | was the image given to doctors once upon a time. | Nevertheless, my point is that doctors are not mere | technicians applying handbook remedies. They are | generally given wide latitude to try novel ideas when | appropriate. Unfortunately, that appears to be changing. | refurb wrote: | There used to be a very active forum on clandestine chemistry | (The Hive) that eventually got shut down when Strike (who ran the | forum) got busted. I cant remember the details (it's been almost | 20 years) but I think 60 Minutes did a report on it and he was | anonymously interviewed? He also wrote a couple books on it. | | The Rhodium archives were also a nice collection of scientific | papers on synthesis routes combined with first hand reports on | success/failure. It was a pretty comprehensive site. | | I believe the archives are still hosted somewhere. | nibbleshifter wrote: | There were a great number of successor forums to the Hive. Some | are still active, some even are clearnet sites you can find | when searching for archives of the Hive. | hotpotamus wrote: | I'm surprised to read that there are recent innovations in | illicit techniques of making methamphetamine that mirror | legitimate pharmaceutical methods, but only because I thought | methamphetamine was already a legitimate pharmaceutical to some | extent. | | https://www.goodrx.com/methamphetamine | | Other amphetamines are quite well represented at the average | pharmacy at least. | blanketlamp wrote: | I think it's more that Eli Lilly and co don't need to deal with | the same supply issues/challenges that warrant the innovation. | If they want to make Meth, they can probably just get a bunch | of pseudoephedrine delivered. | kevinmchugh wrote: | I don't know chemistry but my reading of the article makes me | think the pharmaceutical meth is just the decongestant (L) | isomer | notamy wrote: | Prescription methamphetamine is Desoxyn, which is a CNS | stimulant and thus schedule II | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desoxyn | jagraff wrote: | You can buy the L isomer OTC as a decongestant, but desoxyn | is the D isomer, a stimulant, perscribed for ADHD and | narcolepsy. | cat_plus_plus wrote: | Legislating morality is like casting pearls before swine, best to | focus on helping those who want to live decent lives voluntarily. | Part of that can be accomplished with designated methamphetamine | or whatever dens where adults can get high and then sober up | before being allowed into family neighborhoods. Without legal | fears, it should be easier for addicts to get in touch with those | who offer rehab services or harm reduction replacement therapies | such as methadone. But mostly we want to enable parents who don't | want their kids to be offered drugs keep it this way, and same | for other deranged excesses of our days. | ck2 wrote: | What if instead of all the money poured into law enforcement and | prosecution we instead make treatment for addiction completely | frictionless, effortless and guilt-less. | | Like walking into a supermarket easy. | | Of course progressives have been begging for that to happen with | mental health in the USA for decades, so all this is a fantasy to | try to help people in society. | blfr wrote: | We do not have the technology to make mental health care | supermarket easy. Psychiatric drugs have NNTs in the dozens, | terrible side effects, or both. | | It's a fantasy because it has no chance of working even before | you consider the enormous amount of resources it would require. | | I strongly suspect the same about just letting people do | copious amounts of legal drugs and then trying to fix | addictions they develop. | | Stepping in after the damage is done is usually both much more | expensive and way less effective. Ounce of prevention and all | that. | tchaffee wrote: | The ounce of prevention doesn't work. Prohibition has been a | huge failure. | tchaffee wrote: | That does indeed seem to be working in Portugal. | | One unpredicted side effect of making it a health issue instead | of a criminal issue is that it's no longer so cool to young | kids. Breaking the law is a bit of a rebellious thrill. Getting | an addiction like Uncle Bob and having to visit the doctor a | lot, not so cool. | starkd wrote: | That might work if drugs were as easy to stop than start. | Addiction treatment has a very low success rate with high | relapse rate, and its incredibly expensive per user. The best | treatment remains not starting in the first place. | tchaffee wrote: | Prohibition doesn't work at all at stopping people from | starting in the first place. It has over a hundred years of | failure. | | Switzerland hugely reduced an endemic heroin problem in part | by making it a health issue instead of a criminal issue. | | And Portugal has shown a lot of success in decriminalization | of most drugs. | | Illegal drugs are perhaps the 2nd largest business globally, | after petroleum. Prohibition is an abject failure at "not | starting in the first place". | starkd wrote: | Yes. I was not claiming prohibition did anything. | sitkack wrote: | > The best treatment remains not starting in the first place. | | This is not shown. Many many people try drugs like speed, | marijuana, cocaine and do not become addicted, many only do | them a handful of times. | | Absolutist policies are the ones that encourage draconian | laws and responses because by the very nature of your | statement, the first time is the worst time. | | How about a recreational drug driver's license? It is how we | respond to a situation that matters, not getting into the | situation in the first place, esp when that situation is so | easy to get into. | Metacelsus wrote: | As a soon-to-be PhD graduate, I'm perversely curious as to how | much these clandestine chemistry jobs actually pay . . . | starkd wrote: | I suspect that once you start working in the field, there's no | walking away. You will be a slave scientist. The cartls won't | let you walk away from it. | liveoneggs wrote: | Pay is great but the non-compete is a little aggressive. Don't | bring up the NDA as it's even worse. | hotpotamus wrote: | Ever watch Breaking Bad? | photochemsyn wrote: | Making opiates for the Sackler family with the blessing of the | US government for distribution to addicts via 'pain clinics' | probably pays about the same as making opiates for the Guzman | cartel down in Mexico for transport over the border into the US | for distribution to addicts on street corners. | | In both cases you probably want to keep paying your taxes, | however. In the latter case you'll need some cover story to | explain where you got the money from. | | Really the drug situation in the USA is pretty farcical. You | can manufacture amphetamines and opiates at scale for the | ADHD/chronic pain market, with relatively few restrictions, but | the prisons are full of people involved in the clandestine | trade in the very same substances. | h2odragon wrote: | the pay can be quite good; but don't go bringing any other | concerns to the HR department. | api wrote: | I'm guessing the hells angels do not have a diversity policy | or a policy on harassment? | cjbgkagh wrote: | I'm pretty sure the Hells Angels have a policy on | harassment, you could say it's almost a job requirement. | kevinmchugh wrote: | They have a two letter diversity policy: "No". | fisherjeff wrote: | I believe the severance packages also tend to be pretty bad | MengerSponge wrote: | "Take whatever you want, I-I have money, I have a lot of | money. I have... um... Please, don't do this. You don't- | You... Y-You don't have to do this..." | [deleted] | bell-cot wrote: | Plus issues with what to put on your resume, and getting | references. | passwordoops wrote: | A start-up offer from a loose acquaintance came my way 2006-ish | and it was quite lucrative. But seeing what happened to the | dude long-term proved to me the power and importance of "No" | api wrote: | Many years ago in college I was offered a job doing IT and | infosec/opsec for an interesting group of people. Turned it | down for many reasons including not wanting to live in | constant paranoia, but it was suggested that the pay would be | excellent. | cjbgkagh wrote: | Reminds me of the bit on Clerks about contractors passing on | dangerous jobs with the second Death Star as an example. | chiefalchemist wrote: | > But a human-designed synthetic process can always be human- | redesigned. It happens constantly in the drug industry - the | production of such a common drug as ibuprofen changed completely | in the early 1990s, for example (a story for another time). For | an illegal drug, that means that law enforcement will always be a | step or two behind as new methods come on line. And it means that | stopping the supply of such a drug will be difficult-to- | impossible as well. | | 1) I wish he would have provided a link for the ibuprofen story. | | 2) With regards to the very last bit, You'll never stop the | production. Ironically, "the war on drugs" has meant more and | higher quality drugs. | | What might be possible is mitigating the financial incentives. | | It might also be a good time (read: long over due) to ask: why so | many people have so much pain (i.e., physical or emotional) that | they require a persistent altered state of mind (to defuse the | pain)? | | I'm not talking about prevention. I'm talking about a society / | culture that is as good at generating customers for these | substances as the producer are good at meeting those needs. | gpcr1949 wrote: | You can read about the development of this new route and its | advantages here [0]. Ctrl+F for ibuprofen or go to p.54. | | https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/B978-0-12-804190-1.00004-5 | PragmaticPulp wrote: | I have a friend who, fortunately, escaped the drug world and is | happily recovered now. One of the many interesting things I | learned through talking to him and his friends is the pervasive | idea among addicted that street drugs were always better in the | past. Everyone vividly remembers their drug being much better | when they first got into drugs, with steadily declining effects | over the years. | | Many of them had elaborate theories about changing synthesis or | chirality or cutting agents or active impurities. They would even | have theories about modern prescription Adderall or prescription | opioids being 1/4 as powerful as in the past due to conspiracies | by manufacturers. | | The drugs may have changed slightly over the years, but the sad | reality is that the real change was their accumulated tolerance | and long term damage from drug abuse had blunted their response | so much that they could barely feel the drugs any more. For some, | this blunted reward response carried over to daily life, with | depression and a hedonic being pervasive among the long term | users. | | A sobering reminder that the negative effects of recreational | drugs last long after the hangover. I'm seeing an alarming trend | of young people reading "harm reduction" material online and | assuming they know the full picture of the risks of drug use. | Seeing addicts (most of whom assumed they were using | intelligently and practicing "harm reduction") discuss their long | term effects is a sad look into the realities of drug use. There | is no free lunch. | daniel-cussen wrote: | [dead] | mypalmike wrote: | "accumulated tolerance and long term damage from drug abuse had | blunted their response" | | The succinct term for this phenomenon is "chasing the dragon". | xrd wrote: | First heard that term in the movie "Killing Zoe." Takes me | back. | blanketlamp wrote: | > A sobering reminder that the negative effects of recreational | drugs last long after the hangover. I'm seeing an alarming | trend of young people reading "harm reduction" material online | and assuming they know the full picture of the risks of drug | use. | | I don't think that's ever been in question. Harm reduction | isn't some utopian ideal that safe drug use == nobody ever | suffers long-term negative effects. | | Conquering those demons takes a lot of time, introspection, and | often outside help. Harm reduction is about making sure you | live long enough to hopefully get there. | rlt wrote: | Harm reduction itself isn't a bad thing, the problem is if it | displaces other forms of help for drug users, or ends up | encouraging more drug use. | | e.x. skip to 2:00 in this video | https://twitter.com/sav_says_/status/1603512522509668352 | beebmam wrote: | I think your comment is an example of an important | discussion we need to have around what are the consequences | to our drug policies, whether they are tough-lovish or | harm-reductionist. I can see value in both, in different | circumstances. | | However, the video you link to is from a notorious far | right propaganda outlet. I don't think people will get an | honest perspective from TPUSA, who clearly have an axe to | grind (and bills to pay, which they accomplish by | manufacturing outrage). | rlt wrote: | Ricci Wynne posts most of his videos like this | independently (https://twitter.com/RawRicci415). In most | of them he lets the video speak for itself. I don't have | any reason to believe he's lying and I think he'd | strongly dispute being characterized as "far right". | xyzzyz wrote: | Do you react similarly to left wing propaganda, or is | your "partisan sources do not provide honest | perspectives" limited to right wing sources? | beebmam wrote: | Yes, I do. I despise the far left. | starkd wrote: | True, but you are saying that with more awareness than many | young people have when they are first looking into it. The | brain tends to assume "risk reduction" means "risk approaches | zero" and thus negligeable risk. | worik wrote: | Also "harm reduction" is patronising to users. | | People use drugs for there benefits | | Addiction is a symptom, generally, of alienation. To the | addict the drug is helping. As the addicts loved ones that | can be hard to belive, and demonstrably untrue. But still. | | A much better paradigm is "benefit maximisation" | | Ask ourselves what social policies will help maximize the | benefits of drug use. | | Leads to the same place with the harm, but without | patronising users, and allows us as a society to explore the | upsides of these drugs | PragmaticPulp wrote: | > I don't think that's ever been in question. Harm reduction | isn't some utopian ideal that safe drug use == nobody ever | suffers long-term negative effects. | | To you, maybe, but it only takes a cursory glance at drug- | related subreddits to see numerous people suggesting that you | just need to follow harm reduction websites, stick to some | arbitrary rules (e.g. only do MDMA every N weeks and take X, | Y, and Z supplements), and you can avoid the negative | consequences. You may know that's untrue, but it's common to | see among drug users. | | It's also common to blame drug users who experience problems | on failure to follow harm reduction guides, as if the guides | are a perfect guide for avoiding the harms. | | > Harm reduction is about making sure you live long enough to | hopefully get there. | | Modern harm reduction websites are about education in | general, not just helping addicts survive. You will find | things like dosing guidelines for first time users, | expectations for what to expect, how to prepare, and so on. | | These things are targeted at beginner drug users or the drug | curious. | pantalaimon wrote: | What negative consequences are there to doing MDMA or LSD a | couple times a year? | | Especially when comparing with the negative consequences of | doing alcohol. | | The argument that any drug use is bad is pretty blown out | of proportion. | w1nst0nsm1th wrote: | LSD can mess you up big time even with a single intake in | your life. | still_grokking wrote: | Is this backed by research? Or even some serious | anecdotes? | w1nst0nsm1th wrote: | Bad trip ? | sterlind wrote: | If you have a family history of psychosis, it can trigger | schizophrenia or bipolar. | | If you're not predisposed to psychosis, can it really do | anything besides give you a bad trip? Bad trips are | traumatizing and may take a while to work through, | psychologically, but it's not permanent damage. | | Personally, I had a very bad trip that led me to stop | doing drugs and, ultimately, to a lot of very positive | changes in my life. | ifyoubuildit wrote: | > Especially when comparing with the negative | consequences of doing alcohol. | | This sentiment is confusing to me. I get that alcohol is | bad. But how is that relevant to whether or not MDMA or | LSD are bad? | | I see it come up in these conversations pretty regularly, | so there's probably a point there I'm missing. But I | can't help but read it as "this thing I like to do isn't | bad because other people do a different bad thing". | pantalaimon wrote: | The majority of the population accepts the risk | associated with alcohol. So touting risks of other drugs | as if they where somehow greater than that already by | most accepted risk feels dishonest. | | Now you can say, well I don't drink alcohol either, but | that's not the reality of most people. | ifyoubuildit wrote: | There is another approach though. You can imbibe in any | of these things and also acknowledge that they are | probably a negative thing. | | I'll have a drink occasionally, and (more rarely these | days anyway) I'll occasionally have too many drinks. But | I won't look at either of those as "well, I didnt do | heroin, so that was a good choice". | | I tend to look at it just as if I had eaten mcdonalds or | taco bell or a tub of ice cream. It's something that I | wouldn't do if I really wanted the best for myself (for | some definition of best. Obviously everyone will have | their own. Maybe your best is exploring your psyche, and | damn whatever consequences may or may not come). | | You don't need to justify it. Just recognize that you're | probably trading off something else in your life for it, | and in some cases that tradeoff may be sizable. | | In any case, I think the comparative view isn't a great | one. It implies that you have to have some kinda vice, | and at least you kinda picked a lesser one. My own ideal | would be to do very little of any of it, maybe even none. | But if I miss that ideal, I don't have to rationalize it | away. | gmtx725 wrote: | I think the point is people disproportionately tsk tsk | about the harms of drug use compared to the harms of | alcohol. | | Personally I think most substances in moderate quantities | taken only occasionally are no big deal. Yes there is | probably some minute health impact visible in long term | longitudinal studies but it's probably dwarfed by other | lifestyle factors. I would rather be someone who | exercises regularly, eats a healthy diet and uses MDMA or | cocaine a few times a year than a sedentary obese | teetolar who's never touched drugs. | vidarh wrote: | The worst part is that keeping them all illegal drives | people towards whatever is available, and some of those | choices are far worse than others. | | A more flexible approach would see drugs regulated purely | based on actual harm coupled with availability of a less | harmful analogue (will fentanyl users pick heroin if it's | more easily available than fentanyl? If so regulate one | much more strictly than the other) | | Incidentally that approach might well see tighter | regulations on alcohol than several currently illegal | drugs. | still_grokking wrote: | > Incidentally that approach might well see tighter | regulations on alcohol than several currently illegal | drugs. | | Well, from the scientific view things are pretty clear. | | https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Psychoactive_ | dru... | | Only politics don't want to move. Because why ask science | when you can ask the alcohol and tobacco lobby? | subradios wrote: | Smart, well adjusted drug people will frequently point | out that most common drugs they use (LSD, MDMA, MDAA, | psilocybin, etc) have an orders of magnitude better risk | profile than smoking or drinking. The latter is | essentially socially ubiquitous. | | That community has an ongoing bitterness about this | double standard. | | Usually though, people making this point are not | advocating for heroin or meth (although there's a | reasonable argument there that the drug is not what does | most of the damage in those situations - krokodil is just | heroin manufactured with an extremely dirty process. It's | perceived as being much worse, but what's "much worse" | are the impurities from using gasoline as a solvent. | | MDMA and LSD in particular have the advantage of no fast, | cheap ways to synthesize at the expense of safety or | purity. | sidewndr46 wrote: | I think the reality with LSD in particular is the normal | way of making it is fast & cheap anyways. I'm sure you | _could_ cut some corners. But why? We're talking about a | drug used in microgram doses. Synthesis several kilograms | and you have basically created an annual supply for an | entire continent. | JumpCrisscross wrote: | > _an alarming trend of young people reading "harm reduction" | material online and assuming they know the full picture of the | risks of drug use_ | | Is anyone attempting to harm-reductively try meth? | SilasX wrote: | I'm not sure about meth specifically, but there were | billboards in SF telling people safer ways to use drugs: | | https://www.ktvu.com/news/san-francisco-supervisor-drug- | over... | PragmaticPulp wrote: | Yes. | | The "harm reduction" websites are full of information about | things like: Dose ranges for beginners, what effects to | expect at different dose levels, routes of administration, | and so on. | | This information is targeted at beginners or drug curious | people. | glerk wrote: | Methamphetamine has a bad rep, but taken orally in small | quantities it is not much more dangerous than adderall, and | has pretty much the same side effects. It can be legally | prescribed for ADHD (brand name Desoxyn). | Rewrap3643 wrote: | Meth is significantly different than regular amphetamine. | Consider that simple changes in isomers can elicit | radically different effects. A great example is | levmetamfetamine (or l-meth), which is sold over the | counter as a decongestant (as opposed to d-meth, the "fun" | kind). | | Now, if the difference between a "left-handed" and "right- | handed" meth molecule can be so great, it shouldn't come as | a surprise that adding a methyl group to regular | amphetamine will change its effects considerably. | | This can be seen in the different receptor binding profiles | (which receptors, where in the brain, and how strong or | long the modulation is). | | Meth's increased addictive and neurotoxic effects are owed | to this difference in receptor binding. | anonymoushn wrote: | Probably not, but this is an artifact of the audience of | "harm reduction" material. If there were things aimed at | students and professionals who take prescription stimulants | informing them that there's an alternative prescription | stimulant that is comparably very highly reviewed by | patients[0] for boring reasons like "it helps me live my life | and has fewer annoying side effects" then that probably | wouldn't be "harm reduction" material. | | [0]: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your- | amphetamines | Al-Khwarizmi wrote: | This well-known video explains what you describe in graphical | form, in case anyone has not seen it: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUngLgGRJpo | [deleted] | hgsgm wrote: | "harm reduction" doesn't mean "good addiction" or even "risk | reduction" . It means dying more slowly with less collateral | damage. It means what the name says. | MobiusHorizons wrote: | Unfortunately it doesn't mean just one thing. People use a | slogan like "harm reduction" to describe a wide array of | beliefs and practices ranging from the very practical (don't | make sobriety a condition of care) to the very dogmatic (it's | not ok to discourage drug use of any kind, anyone who | suggests otherwise is part of the problem). Most people will | be somewhere in between those extremes. Once a slogan has | been in use for some time, you can't take the words at face | value anymore. The mean whatever people use them for, not | what they would mean in plain English. | | As an aside this is true about language more generally. There | is no true meaning of any given string of words. Language is | a communication tool (and a lossy one at that). History of | use gives words and phrases additional contextual meaning | beyond any dictionary definition. Feedback is often necessary | to avoid misunderstanding. | nico wrote: | > this is true about language more generally. There is no | true meaning of any given string of words. Language is a | communication tool (and a lossy one at that). History of | use gives words and phrases additional contextual meaning | beyond any dictionary definition. Feedback is often | necessary to avoid misunderstanding. | | Very insightful. It would be great if we all were a bit | more aware of this. | pantalaimon wrote: | And all die we must | abirch wrote: | The sad thing is many overdoses are due to people who quit, | lose their tolerance, but take the same amount of their drug as | when they were still actively using. | sterlind wrote: | _> The drugs may have changed slightly over the years, but the | sad reality is that the real change was their accumulated | tolerance and long term damage from drug abuse had blunted | their response so much that they could barely feel the drugs | any more._ | | This varies with the drug. MDMA is notorious for losing its | "magic" after six or so trips. There's a special empathic, | soul-opening quality to it - the kind of thing that makes it | such a good candidate for treating PTSD. But after a few times, | it becomes more like a regular psychedelic amphetamine.. fun, | but not life-changing. | | On the other hand, pure psychedelics don't really lose their | magic. Tolerance develops, but goes away after a week. | Psychedelics aren't associated with brain damage, while MDMA | mildly is. | | Then there's opioids, of course, which are ruinously addictive | and fickle with tolerance. | | When you're on the outside of the community, it's easy to lump | "drugs" together and make generalizations. But every class of | drug is different. | worik wrote: | The champion of pointless addiction is tobacco ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-01-07 23:00 UTC)