[HN Gopher] EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid sto... ___________________________________________________________________ EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030 Author : rntn Score : 139 points Date : 2023-01-17 20:21 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.nature.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com) | throwawaaarrgh wrote: | We're nowhere near close to home charging for the number of EVs | estimated by 2030. Go ask around, very few organizations are | working on it compared to public chargers. Apartment managers and | condo associations aren't demanding them and only homeowners have | a say, after they pay for the upgrade. Not to mention, the power | companies _hate_ the idea. They won 't even let people with solar | panels feed their excess power to the grid. | | We would need a federal mandate to get there, and I don't see it | happening. | martinflack wrote: | > They won't even let people with solar panels feed their | excess power to the grid. | | Is that true? If so, TIL... | chucksta wrote: | Depends on your state | https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2020/03/which- | states-o... | burkaman wrote: | It is not true, but they do make it very hard in some places | and as a group utilities do kind of hate the idea. Almost all | states require net metering, which what allows people to sell | their solar to the grid, and there is some federal regulation | too | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005). | Despite these requirements most utilities make it pretty hard | to set up. | throwaway892238 wrote: | florida's been trying to kill net metering for years: | https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida- | politics/2021/12/20/fl... | https://www.wfla.com/news/politics/power-bills-could-rise- | ev... they even allegedly derailed a democratic election | using a fake candidate: | https://www.orlandosentinel.com/politics/os-ne-florida- | power... | PaulDavisThe1st wrote: | I opted NOT to sell my excess to PNM (New Mexico), because | the agreement allowed them to claim my 6.7kW array as part | of their own progress towards renewable conversion. | | What I didn't understand was that I ended up with an even | better deal! I get back the excess kW/h on a 1:1 basis. | This is much better "pricing" than I would have received if | I had sold it for cash. | | Granted this model only works if there's a part of the year | when you produce more than you need and another part of the | year where you produce less. Since we heat more or less | exclusively with electric air source heat pumps, but need | no heat or a/c during summer, this works extremely well for | us. | burkaman wrote: | What's wrong with them counting your solar as part of | their conversion? Nothing wrong with you declining if the | price isn't high enough, but if they're paying someone | for solar power, whether it's an individual or a company, | I think they should count that as part of their renewable | portfolio. | cinntaile wrote: | This has to do with lack of demand during high PV production. | This excess energy still has to go somewhere, it doesn't just | disappear. This costs the grid operators money, so either | they charge you or don't let you feed the excess power to the | grid. | nawitus wrote: | Are you saying the price is negative during high PV | production? In sane markets like Finland solar panel owners | need to pay for generating electricity to the grid if the | price is negative (which is it sometimes). | ratboy666 wrote: | The elephant in the room -- unfortunately, there cannot be enough | batteries made to support this. That is why I invested in Tesla | -- don't care about EVs, but the battery play is good! Backup | power for personal/family use? I use a Firman generator - 20 | litres of fuel per day of operation at load. (here, $30 | Canadian). Since the generator was only $300 and load is 3000W, | this is a much better deal for me. And... at the rates being | bandied about here... if anyone EVERY offers, say, $1/KWh - That | grosses me $70 per $30 of gas. I would take that incentive. Note | that the generator would pay for itself every 10 days by my | reckoning.. And the recycling of the motor is already a solved | problem. So... $1/KWh is way too much. $0.50/KWh is also too much | (and note that my gasoline pricing is around $1.50/litre at the | pump -- $22.41 US for 20 liters ... | | So the actual amount should be around 32 cents per KW/h... 50 | cents work fine because that factors in "wear and tear" -- do | those numbers work for batteries? Of course, buying electricity | is 7 to 15 cents/KWh here. | | I would want LiFePo4 for this application; at current rates, a | 10KWh battery runs $10,000. From that, I determine that I can | "just" buy much more effective gas/natural gas/propane burning | generators. Something like the Generac 6551. Natural gas is | .23/c3 or around $1 for one hour of 7000W operation... actually | looking competitive with electricity grid rates (except wear&tear | on the generator). | | Note that I do have a hybrid car. So, not "anti-electric" by any | means. I just don't think that enough batteries can be made for | this application. Certainly NOT be 2030 (6 years? Oh really?) | tuatoru wrote: | > unfortunately, there cannot be enough batteries made to | support this. | | Why do you say this? It contradicts what everyone in the | industry thinks. | | There are no material shortages for the materials used in | lithium batteries, and there are several alternative | chemistries under active development, that are at least two of | cheaper, more durable, or higher power-to-weight than lithium. | reportingsjr wrote: | > I would want LiFePo4 for this application; at current rates, | a 10KWh battery runs $10,000. | | Where in the heck did you get that number? 10kWh of LiFePO4 | batteries is more like $3k at current prices: | https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-48... | joshe wrote: | It feels like an iceberg has been slowly turning over for the | past 10 years, and is now flipping quickly. | | Economic growth is now more correlated with carbon reduction than | increase. | | The useful work of preventing coal plants is over and we need to | switch gears to get home appliances, ev cars, solar, wind and | transmission out as quickly as possible. Environmental groups and | common knowledge haven't caught up yet, but the fastest route to | a low carbon future is a lot of factories producing ev cars, | appliances, and batteries. | | There are many zombie environmental groups that will continue to | fight against anything humans try to change about the built | environment, but over time the astonishingly good economics will | move them to the side. | | One of the nice thing is they don't really have much power other | than stopping solar farms and stopping clean energy transmission. | For 80% of the things we need to do, it's just people going to | home depot. | | And in many ways old school environmentalists are already losing | the policy wars, the inflation reduction act is chock full of pro | growth, pro abundance carbon reduction. | | If you are looking for startup inspiration... | | Super powerful battery augmented induction stove, hotter than | gas: https://www.treehugger.com/impulse-electric-cooktop-gets- | a-b... | | In window heat pump 80% more efficient at heating and cooling. | Helps with the big ticket/renter problem for heat pumps. | https://www.gradientcomfort.com/ | | The coming abundance of energy... | | Economic growth and solar: | https://mobile.twitter.com/Noahpinion/status/157068814444987... | | Solar economics: https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-im-so- | excited-about-so... | Timshel wrote: | Meh when I see that we are barely able to stop the growth of | fossile fuel usage ( | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_supply_and_cons... | ), I'm not sure why peoples are so optimistic. | | And it's not like Enr and other suggestion you propose will not | need insane amount of ressource extraction. | | Heat pump usually need a well insulated home, just isolating | all the needed house in the next 25 years is probably a | challenge itself between cost and having enough workers. And | it's not like there was an article last week on electrician | shortage ... | microdrum wrote: | EVs with BrakeFlow resistive protection against thermal runaway | also will have a big impact -- allowing for faster discharge into | the grid. Increasing cRate for grid services can "bring forward" | the point in time -- so 2030 could even happen a few years sooner | if these high performance batteries from Enovix come to the EV | market soon. | RetpolineDrama wrote: | I assumed this meant selling EoL EV batteries back to providers | who convert them into grid storage. | | An EoL EV battery still has a decade or more of life as a grid- | scale battery. | sp332 wrote: | It includes both. But since EV manufacturing capacity is | ramping up so fast, the amount of battery capacity in cars is | going to be a lot larger than the amount in EoL car batteries | for a while. | bottlepalm wrote: | This is already happening today in California, a couple gigawatts | of batteries are charged during the day and released in the | evening to offset peak demand. | | https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html | yodsanklai wrote: | This seems high(?): for comparison, average power of French | solar panels is 1.6GW (and a bit more for wind power). | p1necone wrote: | The population of California is ~ half that of France, and | presumably California sells power to neighbouring states too, | so it doesn't seem that out of whack. | cschmid wrote: | The Taiwanese scooter company Gogoro recently announced something | similar: Their scooters come with swappable batteries that you | rent. The swapping station they have throughout the city are | basically walls full of batteries. Since the company owns all the | batteries, they can then use them to provide power to the grid | during peak load. | trompetenaccoun wrote: | That makes more sense as it can be better planned based on | projected demand. They also have more batteries than customers. | With individual car owners, they often can't charge when it's | convenient for the grid because they drive their car and need | it when they need it. | fit2rule wrote: | [dead] | Am4TIfIsER0ppos wrote: | Imagine the government draining your tank at the gas station | instead of filling it. | TruthShare wrote: | [flagged] | iso1631 wrote: | Imagine the gas station selling you a tank of gas for $10 and | buying it back for $15 later in the day, all while your car | sits on your driveway | ThunderSizzle wrote: | It will never work that way, except for the lucky few. | | Have you ever tried selling books back to the school store? | They'll buy it from you for $10 when you paid $100 for it. | Same thing will happen for this. | _Algernon_ wrote: | The difference is with the book your alternative is to not | sell it back and getting 0$, assuming you've extracted all | value. | | In the case of the car, you can choose to not sell it, and | use it for driving instead. | | The incentives are completely different. You're comparing a | scenario where they have you by the balls with a case where | both parties are more or less equally powerful market | participants. | bryanlarsen wrote: | It's trivial to prevent the power company from doing this | -- just unplug your car. | | They can't force anybody to participate, so if they want | participation they'll have to pay and pay well. | olivermarks wrote: | But then you won't be able to drive your electric car | because it's not charged up... | [deleted] | eddhead wrote: | How did BritishVolt go bankrupt then? | amalgamated_inc wrote: | Slowly, then suddenly. | Reason077 wrote: | Manufacturing battery cells is very energy intensive, so I'm | guessing that the recent sky-high UK energy prices spooked | their investors and made UK battery manufacturing look | unviable. | | Something like NorthVolt, on the other hand, works because they | have access to reliable low-cost hydro in Northern Sweden. | pandama wrote: | Please say a prayer for the people of the Congo who will have to | mine the cobalt we want. | PeterCorless wrote: | Considering that most "EV batteries" are actually just smaller | batteries glued together to bigger cells, modules and packs, I | don't think this is as much of a win as people think it is. | | It's like saying "We can green the planet with Duracells." | Ignoring what's _in_ the batteries or what it takes to | manufacture them. Or how they degrade over time. | | We may need to look at hybrid battery solutions with alternative | energy storage systems, like graphene supercapacitors. | | https://www.laserax.com/blog/ev-battery-cell-types | karamanolev wrote: | It's not as black and white. EV batteries are getting produced | and will get produced quite a lot it seems. We'll be using them | for transportation, but if we can _also_ use them for short- | term grid storage, that certainly improves the sustainability | math. Using things better is a win, so let 's do it. | | We can't green the planet with Duracells, but it's certainly | better than producing and not fully using the Duracells. | ericd wrote: | Sorry, how is the size of the individual cells relevant? Big | cells are just the same sorts of cathode/anode sheets, but in | larger rolls, no? | | Duracells are typically single-use alkaline, so I'm also not | sure why that comparison makes sense? | bluefirebrand wrote: | Love subsidizing public infrastructure directly as well as paying | taxes! | meltyness wrote: | It's possible for market forces to drive batteries out of | consumer reach, and then you'll own the car and rent the | battery. Is that better? | bluefirebrand wrote: | Not even a little bit! | | Renting sucks! | criley2 wrote: | I'm all for battery rental because I think battery-swaps | instead of recharging is the future. The model already works | in a number of other vehicle sectors. | | 30 minute quick charges are not the future | grecy wrote: | Gotta make sure those giant energy companies keep making more | profit than ever before! | comte7092 wrote: | I too love living in a society. | sp332 wrote: | As this gets more popular, I guess net metering will be offered | less and less. But you should still get some credit for | supplying electricity to the grid. | function_seven wrote: | On the contrary, I would expect to be paid higher rates for | the energy I'm supplying to the grid than those I paid to | charge it in the first place. Otherwise, what's the point? | I'm not going to buy a kilowatt-hour high, then sell it low. | | Only way these grid balancing schemes work is if the pricing | is real-time, and I have an opportunity to supply marginal | peak demand at rates that are higher than what I paid to | charge (while still being lower than what peaker plants would | cost) | gopalv wrote: | > I would expect to be paid higher rates for the energy I'm | supplying to the grid than those I paid to charge it in the | first place | | The Tesla VPP[1] model was 1$ KWH to send it back, better | than Net Metering which should have paid only 42c. | | However, this was coordinated with PGE to match the lack of | production (in advance, which is its own miracle) and | unlike a car, the battery doesn't change locations or need | to be unplugged at random. | | [1] - | https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/powerwall/own/tesla- | pge... | jlmorton wrote: | It's worth pointing out that Tesla's Virtual Power Plant in | California -- which is used primarily in emergency events | -- compensates owners $2/kWh. [1] | | Obviously, that rate is not going to be sustainable for | routine energy storage, but PG&E is already compensating EV | owners a substantial amount for peak electricity needs. | | [1] https://electrek.co/2022/09/02/tesla-virtual-power- | plant-gro... | zahma wrote: | This is the future, like it or not. There's a lot of energy | tied up in batteries, or at least their can be. And until we | solve the problem of harnessing intermittent energy sources for | when they aren't generating energy, we aren't going zero | emissions. | [deleted] | meltyness wrote: | That this is still only an academic rumbling / home of the | future[0] talk speaks volumes about how out-of-touch global | finance remains. | | [0] https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/tech-news-briefing/tapping- | elec... | mikaeluman wrote: | Did I read too sloppily or did they simply not discuss actual | availability, that is supply, of metals needed? | martini333 wrote: | I would not sell cycles from my EVs NMC battery. | maliker wrote: | Hmm, but how often and for how much? If you could get $500 to | discharge 50% would that make it worth your while? If you only | did it once a month? There are price situations like that on | the grid already. | oittaa wrote: | As others have mentioned power companies in California pay a | lot for virtual power plants when the demand is high. If | power companies can avoid running an expensive peaker plant | once a month, everybody wins. | bryanlarsen wrote: | Texas was paying $9/kWh for electricity during their | blackouts. If you had 72kWh of electricity in your Tesla | that'd be a nice payout... | JakeAl wrote: | I wouldn't take that bet until solid state batteries get better. | This is a disaster in the making. | lja wrote: | I think EV owners would need to find some level of compensation | for the additional cycles they would incur. Electric vehicles are | expensive because of the battery so deteriorating the life of one | of the most costly parts of the car doesn't feel like a great | solution. | UniverseHacker wrote: | We also need EV designs where the batteries are modular and | easy to swap out. I wouldn't be interested in a deal where I | was compensated financially for quickly wearing my non- | replaceable car battery out, because the battery wear alters | the usability of the car, e.g. I might find I can only take my | family on shorter trips than planned, if my battery is now 80% | of what it would have been. | | I also wouldn't want the battery level timed around the grid vs | my own transportation needs. What if there is suddenly a heavy | demand on the grid, and now I can't take my sick family member | to the hospital, because the charge was sold to the grid? | prottog wrote: | I agree. This further degrades the meaning of owning private | property. | Ajedi32 wrote: | Unless it's voluntary (which it darned well better be). | | I envision a future where individual appliances (including | EVs) can opt in to spot pricing for the electricity they | consume (or produce). That would naturally incentivize | charging during off-peak hours and discharging during peak | hours, all without requiring any government incentives or | coercion. It could also be useful for other major appliances | which could benefit from the lower prices afforded by load | shifting, such as hot water heaters. | at-fates-hands wrote: | >> I envision a future where individual appliances | (including EVs) can opt in to spot pricing for the | electricity they consume (or produce). | | I remember when high speed internet was coming into being | and there were a lot of pundits talking about how high | speed bandwidth would be sold as a commodity on the NYSE. | If someone needed say an hour of high bandwidth for a video | conference, they could do what you're saying, buy an hour | of high speed access. Of course, high speed internet | eventually became so cheap and so readily available, those | ideas faded pretty fast. | | I might be remembering this wrong, but wasn't Enron doing | what you're talking about? | tguvot wrote: | a bunch of appliances already can be aware of TOU pricing | and run when it's atlowest. Many thermostats can be "auto- | adjusted" based on grid load | NotYourLawyer wrote: | Lots of now-compulsory things started out as voluntary. | bryanlarsen wrote: | Pretty hard to make it compulsory if you can avoid it by | (at worst) unplugging your car. | wjnc wrote: | Energy price volatility will probably increase because | natural sources are more volatile and other sources have spin | up / down cycles. A car battery is like 3-4 days of | continuous house usage. The car battery being used to top off | the top 10% in short term pricing for energy would give a | very nice ROI I expect. The rest is software? Don't | overcharge, don't go under the limit I set for continuous | availability as a mode of transport. And that's all within | reach in front of the meter, thus under my ownership. Heck, | without self driving becoming common a family might even have | 2 EVs on the driveway, giving a week of off grid potential. | | Come to think of it - a harder part is how super local the | grid is and energy pricing should become. In my somewhat | affluent neighborhood in high summer the voltage rises too | high and the supply of solar falls. And tragedy of the | commons - we are still installing solar because it's | massively incentivized (2 years before investment returns | itself). To solve this with EVs requires very granular | prices. There might be clouds 50 km away. But again, those | are software solvable issues. (I'm not holding my breath. | It's like IoT-superplus.) | micromacrofoot wrote: | The distributor should just pay the generation fee to the car | owners just like they would a power plant. | bryanlarsen wrote: | Assuming Tesla prices and full cycling of battery (aka from | 100->0), draining a kWh puts about 2cents wear on your battery, | so compensation would need to be above that price. | | In practice you'd never allow your operator to drain you to 0, | so 2 cents is very much on the high side. | | In the California Tesla VPP trial, they pay 50 cents per kWh. | | (correction: 20cents wear, not 2cents) | georgeg23 wrote: | I calculate about $12 per Model Y full battery cycle, _how | did you get 2 cents?_ | | $12,000 (Model Y bat replace cost) * 300(miles for full | drain)/300,000(total miles per pack) | | = $12 per cycle | | Edit: or _18 cents per kWh_ | xyzzyz wrote: | 18 cents per kWh is something like 5-6 times the wholesale | price of kWh. This means that using EV for large scale | storage is highly uneconomical. | bryanlarsen wrote: | It's only used for those periods when demand exceeds | supply. In Texas, the wholesale price of electricity is | $9/kWh during those periods. | bryanlarsen wrote: | Using your numbers: 300000 miles / 320 miles/cycle = 938 | cycles. 938 cycles * 72kWh = 67500 kWh. $12000 / 67500 = 18 | cents. | | Dunno where I got my 2 cents from, that calculation was | done 2 months ago. | georgeg23 wrote: | I agree with your 18 cents/kWh. That's slightly more than | the average cost of electricity in the US?.. | | That is interesting, that means for home-charging your | electric cost (per mile) is about equal to the battery | degradation cost. | | Thats 2x cost than most think. | bryanlarsen wrote: | Your whole car depreciates, not just the battery. | Depreciation cost for driving a mile is a _lot_ more than | the electricity cost. | dtech wrote: | the "real" time-based prices have much more variability, | if you have time-based prices you can buy for a lot less | and sell for a lot more during peak. That difference can | easily be double that 18 cents/kWh. | bryanlarsen wrote: | They'll only want to buy back electricity at times when | demand exceeds supply. In Texas the price of electricity | is $9/kWh during those times. | rtkwe wrote: | For you though that cost is just part of the normal | depreciation of using the vehicle. Allowing the utility | to discharge your battery isn't part of the normal | utilization for yourself so the cost should get included. | We also don't usually think or talk about how much | depreciation using a particular gallon of gas costs you | so it muddies comparisons. | ErikCorry wrote: | Petrol engines get worn too. | Tade0 wrote: | It's not per cycle, but per kWh. | | In any case I'm getting 10-20 cents depending on battery | pack size and chemistry. | hdevalence wrote: | The 2 cent figure is per kWh, not per cycle. Multiplying by | the 75kWh pack size gives $1.50. | | What about the remaining 10X? The calculation you're doing | isn't the right one, because the battery wear isn't | directly related to miles driven; Tesla's battery warranty | is pricing in a "full stack" picture of battery degradation | while actually driving. | | Your computation implies that the battery has 0 value after | ~1000 cycles, but battery manufacturers commonly warranty | 3,000-5,000. In addition, cycle count is only one variable | affecting degradation, others include the depth of | discharge, the charging and discharging profiles, the | thermal management, etc. | | (This is one reason why a 10-year-old Tesla has noticeably | different battery degradation than, say, a 10-year old | Nissan Leaf, which has no thermal management and a very | poor BMS) | | Finally, even when battery degradation occurs, it doesn't | remove the battery's entire capacity, so degraded batteries | can still be used for stationary storage applications. | While an extreme degradation like 50% is very bad for an | automotive application, it doesn't matter so much for | small-scale grid storage, since space is usually not the | limiting factor. | georgeg23 wrote: | The nature paper seems to assume the car is doing a fast | discharge to supply enough energy to the grid, so | something like supercharging-- probably not the best on | the battery. Tesla only warranties 375 cycles, so not | sure what you mean? The 18 cents/kWh already assumes a | more generous 1,000 cycles. | | The $12,000 battery pack replacement cost is current | market price, including any recycling or potential reuse | of old pack. | | Edit: actual battery replace including labor is $16,550 | from a receipt https://www.currentautomotive.com/how- | much-does-a-tesla-mode... | phkahler wrote: | Did you know that the standard DC chargers communicate with the | vehicle using PLC (Powerline communication) chips even though | that communication is not over the high power conductors? I've | always had the feeling the grid operators got that included | because they thought they were going to communicate directly | with the battery management system to control it as they wish. | It never happened and now the standard is stupidly complex and | they're still trying to use cars as storage without much | consideration for what vehicle owners want. | | Sure, offer variable rates. Offer interruptabke service. But | stop wanting V2G, nobody actually wants it. | jackinloadup wrote: | Assuming V2G means Vehicle to Ground, this is something I | would like to see for the following use-case. | | I would like to use my car battery as a temporary home | battery in the inevitable case of a grid outage. This opens | the option to bring energy home from another location. Reduce | or eliminates the need for a battery in a grid-tied house. | | Am I crazy? | | Edit: Granted that doesn't mean the energy company can use my | car's battery at it's whim. I think compensation would be | required and would actually make a lot of sense. It isn't | like the electric company could build out a battery system | for cheaper. It would need to be a higher compensation than | to PV though. Batteries are more expensive and should be | compensated as such. | Reason077 wrote: | V2G = vehicle to grid. It's quite possible for this to | operate as a backup battery, but like a Powerwall it | requires extra "gateway" hardware to ensure that your house | is isolated from the grid when the battery is discharging. | | V2L (vehicle to load) is a simpler form that lets you power | 115/230V appliances directly from the vehicle. Quite a few | EVs (Hyundai, Ford, etc) already support V2L. | toast0 wrote: | That's not crazy, it's actually a publicized optional | feature on the F-150 Lightning, and the F-150 hybrid has an | optional 240V 30A output that can be used as a home backup | as well (although that'd be a bit more manual). | dublinben wrote: | >stop wanting V2G, nobody actually wants it. | | Utilities really want V2G, so it's probably going to happen | one way or another. It's probably less applicable to an | individual homeowner, but commercial and other fleet | operators are going to find this appealing at the right | price. | | For example: https://www.proterra.com/press- | release/massachusetts-electri... | ralph84 wrote: | School buses seem like possibly the only real use case | here, since they have a very seasonal usage pattern. For | other commercial vehicles, the operators buy them to | operate, not sit around and power the grid. When are they | envisioned to be powering the grid? | nemomarx wrote: | Municipal buses are parked in depots overnight, right? | That would kind of make sense - they already have to own | the land for that, the vehicles already have to stay | there in specific conditions, etc. | ralph84 wrote: | When are they supposed to charge if they're operating | during the day and powering the grid at night? | whazor wrote: | Selling electricity is compensation, like with solar panels. | You only need hourly energy prices to make it profitable. Plus | an app that does the profitability calculation and discharging. | ThunderSizzle wrote: | Sounds similar to Uber using a contractor vehicle's hidden | depreciation and maintenance to shift the real cost of their | service. | | I doubt the hourly price will ever truly be fair to | individual car owners. Maybe we'll start to be asked whenever | we plug in our phones to tip the owner of a car our | electricity is coming from. | micromacrofoot wrote: | I already get paid by my utility for the electricity my | solar panels generate, and it's 1:1 with what they charge | me for their generation. | cwkoss wrote: | If there are consistent price cycles and a good API for | reading price, it should be pretty easy for an EV owner to | control how much they interact with the arbitrage | opportunities with some simple rules. Ex. "only sell if it | cost at least 15% less to charge", "always charge to X%", | "charge to 70% if < $Y", charge to 100% if < $Z", "never | sell below X%" | | The aesthetic vibe of having an autonomous energy trading | bot in my garage is attractive to me. | rtkwe wrote: | Part of the issue isn't the controls to do that it's that | the prices to compensate wear on a battery are a) likely | significantly higher than the base price and b) pretty | hard to calculate. | mhb wrote: | That's what a market is for. | jahewson wrote: | There is no market. I can only sell electricity to PG&E | and only at a flat rate. | mhb wrote: | That is a market. You can decide to sell or not. Whether | PG&E offers a market clearing price is a separate issue. | cwkoss wrote: | Yeah, I'd try to model the deprecation cost of the | battery to some extent while tuning my magic numbers in | the trading bot settings. | | ~1,500 cycles per $16k battery replacement. Shouldn't | sell a full cycle for less than ~$15. Don't arbitrage a | 1% point of battery life unless it yields at least $0.15. | Might just set it at $0.20 per 1% for healthy | margin/price in hassle of battery replacement. | rlpb wrote: | > I doubt the hourly price will ever truly be fair to | individual car owners. | | If it's not fair to them, then they won't participate, and | the market will adjust. | idiotsecant wrote: | It's not likely that the pennies offered will offset the much | larger loss of value in the battery, though. | 0cVlTeIATBs wrote: | 1. Core charge when recycling 2. Time-of-use electricity rates. | Up to the customer to choose to install load shifting equipment | nkingsy wrote: | This makes much more sense with large lifepo4 chemistry | batteries that are expected to outlive the car by a wide | margin. | | Lifepo4 batteries > 50kwh should easily handle 500,000 miles. | | Higher performance lithium ion will degrade at a rate faster | than any expected return from a scheme like this. | | At least in Northern California it's now cheaper for me to run | solar+battery off grid than to pay pge. Lifepo4 pushes it over | the edge into profitability. | | If off-grid is competitive, selling at peak prices is a no | brainer. | onlyrealcuzzo wrote: | > If off-grid is competitive, selling at peak prices is a no | brainer. | | So why isn't the utility managing the storage directly then? | Aren't they best suited to do this??? | | Or is this article just saying that EV car batteries _could_? | fshbbdssbbgdd wrote: | Utilities buy most of their power at wholesale rates, which | are lower than the consumer rate they charge the end user. | Net metering rules in some jurisdictions obligate the | utilities to buy solar/battery power from users at consumer | rates. That can be a good financial opportunity for | homeowners and it's driven a lot of the investment in home | solar setups. But local policies can change. The rules are | changing in California and it's not going to be such a good | deal anymore in the future. | Dylan16807 wrote: | > Aren't they best suited to do this??? | | They don't have a million EV batteries, purchased outside | the scope of this program, sitting around idle and | connected to the grid. | | Their customers do. | tuatoru wrote: | Utilities don't _yet_ have a million EV batteries laying | around, but they (or specialist EoL battery companies) | will soon. | | From the abstract:- | | > Participation rates fall below 10% if half of EV | batteries at end-of-vehicle-life are used as stationary | storage. | | Half seems conservative to me. There are already lots of | startups wanting your end-of-life EV battery. | toomuchtodo wrote: | I have 100k miles on my 2018 Model S having Supercharged it | the majority of the time the last four years. It has only 6% | battery degradation of the 100kw pack. Tesla warranties their | powerwalls for 15 years when configured as part of their | aggregated virtual power plants. The batteries are | demonstrated to be durable. | | New LFP chemistries that are heavier but more stable are | ideal for stationary storage and high cycle counts, but the | evidence shows in general that these packs are built for | longevity (with very occasional early failures). You could | probably do well buying a salvage Tesla and shucking the pack | for working modules and coming out ahead economically (safety | warning, do at your own risk, etc) if you don't want or can't | get dedicated stationary storage (although it comes with | generous federal, state, and utility subsidies in | California). | danans wrote: | > if you don't want or can't get dedicated stationary | storage (although it comes with generous federal, state, | and utility subsidies in California). | | I installed stationary LFP batteries (from Enphase) on my | house in CA 1.5 years ago, but I then discovered that the | state and utility subsidies [1] only apply if you are in a | very low income (for CA) bracket, have a health condition | that requires backup power, or live in a high fire risk | zone. | | I don't qualify for the first 2 categories, and my luck is | that the high fire risk zone starts about a mile away from | my house, so good from the fire risk perspective, but not | for the subsidy. Still got the 26% federal tax credit (with | IRA, it's now back up to 30%). | | 1. SGIP: https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/industries-and- | topics/electrical-ene... | jackmott wrote: | [dead] | [deleted] | claytongulick wrote: | Maybe before we get too excited about scaling production of EV | batteries, we should solve the horrific abuses in the cobalt | mines in the Congo [1] which provide 70%+ of all cobalt for all | lithium ion batteries. | | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIWvk3gJ_7E ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-01-17 23:00 UTC)