[HN Gopher] New Norwegian land could emerge from The Atlantic Ocean ___________________________________________________________________ New Norwegian land could emerge from The Atlantic Ocean Author : LastNevadan Score : 66 points Date : 2023-01-18 18:04 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (sciencenorway.no) (TXT) w3m dump (sciencenorway.no) | simonebrunozzi wrote: | Hmm... A new micronation? | effnorwood wrote: | [dead] | sacrosancty wrote: | [dead] | api wrote: | This headline instantly conjured up an image of Norwegian black | metal bands thrashing away as a black basalt island rises slowly | out of the abyss with smoke and fire and lightning... | 2000UltraDeluxe wrote: | I'd buy that album! | alex_suzuki wrote: | That photo of the Beerenberg volcano in the first part of the | article is stunning. | dubcanada wrote: | How would this work? If suddenly a brand new island appeared, who | owns it? Assuming it's off Norways coast, Norway owns it. But | what happens if it's between two country coasts or nobodies? | peteradio wrote: | It's actually covered under the universal dibs clause. Dibs! | mattficke wrote: | If it's within 200 miles of land, there's established protocol | under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea[0] to demarcate | maritime boundaries based on land borders. If the border went | through the island there would need to be some sort of treaty | negotiation to establish sovereignty. | | [0] | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on... | midasuni wrote: | So asssume there's a 20 mile gap between, and the island | appears 18 miles of country A's coast, clearly it's part of | country A. | | Is the new maritime border still at the 20 mile mark or is it | equidistant between the new island, 11 miles off shore and 11 | miles from country B. | | But there great swathes of habitable land where we can't | agree globally on what country it is, so as usual it comes to | down diplomacy. | mattficke wrote: | The short version is that overlapping maritime borders are | resolved by drawing the various buffer zones out from the | shoreline of all coastal land of each country, and where | they conflict take the approximate midpoint of the | overlapping area as the border. | | Small islands can therefore have an outsized impact on | extending the territorial waters of a country, which is why | there are so many territorial disputes over seemingly- | insignificant uninhabited islands. | | There's not always an unambiguous resolution to competing | claims, see for example: | | - China's "nine-dash line" | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dash_line | | - The Israeli-Lebanese maritime border dispute (which was | only resolved last year) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isra | eli%E2%80%93Lebanese_marit... | slicktux wrote: | Have not read it...but is it due to isostatic rebound? | bell-cot wrote: | That was my first thought, too. But instead it's just-barely- | submarine volcanoes on the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. | jofer wrote: | The article is actually talking about volcanic activity | building things up. I.e. active volcanoes building up relative | to the seafloor immediately around them. | | Isostatic rebound is also occurring for the overall area, | though. It's just a smaller effect (millimeters to centimeters | per year) vs the meters to hundreds of meters that can occur | from an eruption. | | (For those who don't know, isostatic rebound is occurring for | large areas where the ice sheets were very thick during the | last ice age. The lithosphere (rigid portion of the earth) | "flexed" downward as a result, and it's currently still flexing | back now that the ice is gone. The mantle has a very high | viscosity, though, and needs to "flow" into the space as the | lithosphere flexes back. That means it's a process that takes | tens of thousands of years to equalize. "Flow" is in quotes, | because most folks don't think of solids flowing. The mantle is | solid rock, but solid rock does flow.) | bell-cot wrote: | Article's subtitle: "Many active volcanoes can be found on the | seabed within Norway's maritime borders. Some are now only a few | metres below sea level. " | | The first para mentions that it's west of Jan Mayen ( | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Mayen ). | | So - not exactly high-value real estate. Even before you factor | in the lush "above 70 degrees north, on the edge of the Greenland | Sea" climate. | hadlock wrote: | China's made an entire business of expanding their territory by | putting airfields on top of half-underwater islands. The | Spratlys are horseshoe shaped atolls but have proven it can be | done effectively and defensibly. | (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/21/china-has- | full...) You also get a ~200 mile EEZ for fishing and mineral | rights, and a 6-12 mile territorial waters in the area as well. | Portugal has been working on staking out an enormous chunk of | the north atlantic for the last decade or so using similar | strategy. | spookie wrote: | Portugal has a ton of actual islands though | [deleted] | jcranmer wrote: | > You also get a ~200 mile EEZ for fishing and mineral | rights, and a 6-12 mile territorial waters in the area as | well. | | You _don 't_ get those for artificial lands or for | insufficiently substantial islands. And an international | arbitration under UNCLOS already ruled against Chinese claims | in this regard. | bell-cot wrote: | What China - a superpower with a very confrontational and | combative attitude - can get away with in its own back yard | _might_ be quite different from what modest little Norway can | or would try to do in the Greenland Sea. | | Also, talk to a few volcanologists and marine engineers about | trying to build airfields on the tops of barely-above water | active volcanoes. (Vs. China is building on shallow, solid, | inactive atolls.) | klyrs wrote: | > Also, talk to a few volcanologists and marine engineers | about trying to build airfields on the tops of barely-above | water active volcanoes. | | Discount plane parking/moorage/incineration? | zardo wrote: | And Norway has plenty of EEZ, China is short on it. | mytailorisrich wrote: | I think we need to understand that China is not | "confrontational and combative" in a negative way. | | Think of it more like the kid who's been bullied for years | and years and when puberty hits is finally able to stand | his ground. That's China, and they're not the only ones who | have been bullied over the last centuries and who may be | able to stand their ground soon. | Dylan16807 wrote: | The nine dash line is not at all standing their ground. | BurningFrog wrote: | Those kids often _are_ the worst bullies! | karatinversion wrote: | Disagree. The Spratly island shenanigans, in particular, | are squarely aimed at Malaysia, Taiwan, the Philippines | and Vietnam, which in your analogy are the smaller, | younger victims of the bullies. | mytailorisrich wrote: | China has been claiming the South China Sea since before | the PRC, hence why the claims by the ROC/Taiwan are same: | the PRC took over the ROC's claims. Of course this is not | the 'correct' narrative to say that... | | Every country has been acting the same. Look at what the | US control and ask why that is. The difference is that | China has been on the receiving end of the stick over the | last centuries while the US (for instance) has been on | the giving end. There is no right and wrong, just being | weak or being strong. | sklargh wrote: | "Since you know as well as we do the right, as the world | goes, is only in question between equal power, while the | strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they | must" | | https://www.nku.edu/~weirk/ir/melian.html | mytailorisrich wrote: | Well, exactly. | | Some of the replies I get are childish and ridiculous. | The US control land almost up to the Chinese coast bit | China is the bully for finally being able to assert a few | claims in the South China Sea... how far can hypocrisy go | | As for the neighbours' input, we'll ask Mexico, Cuba, and | South America... | adolph wrote: | > There is no right and wrong, just being weak or being | strong. | | Just six comments deep from random coastal volcano and we | are already at the Nietzschian ubermensch, that escalated | quickly! | | In the larger picture, let us all consider the logical | fallacy of _tu quoque_. A counter-claim that "you do it | too" does not refute the original claim. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque | [deleted] | drblastoff wrote: | You're conveniently ignoring a couple thousand years | where China bullied its neighbors relentlessly. | scheme271 wrote: | It might be really high value if it gives Norway claims to much | more area and a larger exclusive economic zone in the Atlantic. | bell-cot wrote: | _Maybe_. If the peak of an active volcano or few actually | counts for your EEZ. If the peak doesn 't blow up or get | washed away before it's been there long enough to count. | IANAL. If/how/when EEZ's change, when a sliver of new land | pops up, strikes me as a pretty rare & special legal | specialty. | 11235813213455 wrote: | meanwhile sea is gaining space with global warming | Arnt wrote: | Nor in/near Norway. | | Greenland is melting, which changes the earth's centre of | gravity, which in turn leads the area around Greenland (all the | way to Norway) to rise. Iceland, Baffin Island and some other | islands near Greenland rise decisively more than the ocean, | mainland Norway perhaps a bit more. This volcano near Jan Mayen | might get a 10m boost over the next 200 years. | hanoz wrote: | How does the earth's centre of gravity changing cause land to | rise? ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-01-18 23:00 UTC)