[HN Gopher] Some gut bacteria appear to communicate with the brain
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Some gut bacteria appear to communicate with the brain
Author : gardenfelder
Score : 97 points
Date : 2023-01-24 17:47 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| vr46 wrote:
| I certainly feel like my brain is in charge when I wake up, long
| enough to get my clothes on and out of the house on the school
| run and back, at which point my stomach resumes control for the
| rest of the day.
| alexpotato wrote:
| So this has a potential evolutionary aspect to it.
|
| In caveman days you had to wake up, triage the current
| environment for threats(weather, animals etc) and then once
| that was done you would go out and try to find food.
|
| It makes sense that your stomach would take a back seat till
| the above had been taken care of. It would then trigger the
| hunger feeling to motivate you to focus on food.
| keyP wrote:
| Ayurveda posited a form of gut-brain axis thousands of years ago
| (and is a core basis for its dietary aspects), interesting to see
| more scientific research delving into the details.
| stuckinhell wrote:
| This is a little scary, doesn't that mean they can hack you and
| cause issues from brain fog to mental illness.
| echelon wrote:
| If we thought lead in the water was bad, just wait for the news
| of all the dietary and microbiota damage we've been doing to
| ourselves.
|
| Obviously this could also become a population-level attack
| vector.
| GalenErso wrote:
| I'm getting TLOU vibes....
|
| ....I've enjoyed the first two episodes.
| thinkingemote wrote:
| and hack the other way around, to clear heads and positive
| wholesome thinking
| jimwhite42 wrote:
| Humans need a lot of nutrients for brain operation, so it makes
| sense that we would have a sophisticated system for working with
| the gut flora and fauna to support them so that they can help us
| digest food effectively. If this is the case, in a sense we then
| we invite the gut inhabitants, and ask them what they want so
| they can help us. I think it's reaching a bit to describe this as
| 'gut bacteria control the brain'.
| ohyoutravel wrote:
| I read a book about all this recently called I Contain
| Multitudes. The thesis was that the gut biome controlled a lot,
| and given the evidence presented I thought it was compelling (as
| a layman) though not actionable. Based on that one piece of
| information I am not surprised by the OP.
| lumb63 wrote:
| I started I Contain Multitudes and ended up reading 10% Human
| instead. It's more human-centric. Fascinating either way. I
| suspect we are starting to see the first glimmers of a vast
| space of microbiome interactions.
| ohyoutravel wrote:
| It's really interesting, and for me personally unfortunate
| that it seems to be a "crunchy" topic that's regularly the
| domain of crystal healers and anti vaxxers and people who
| blame their maladies on "toxins in the body" because the
| science behind a microbiome growing from the food we eat and
| how we evolved seems pretty sound.
| lumb63 wrote:
| I share this sentiment. It seems that anything which has
| not yet been formally proven by academia is "not real" in
| the public eye and therefore all believers are cranks. We
| still have major gaps in our understanding of our bodies
| and our medicine, so to me it is ironic that the
| institutional science scoffs at things like the microbiome
| that we do not yet fully understand.
| goatlover wrote:
| There's a hundred million neurons in our guts. It makes me think
| arguments about being brains in a vat, and treating the brain as
| a biological computer with inputs form the senses misses the fact
| that the brain is part of the nervous system extending throughout
| the body, and not some isolated system. An envatted brain
| isolated from the body is likely not going to function properly.
| The brain can only properly be understand as being part of a
| whole organism.
| mcculley wrote:
| Also, hormones have an enormous effect on the brain. The
| speculation I have read about immortality through brain vat
| tech does not address that such brains might not have any
| reason to want to live.
| kzrdude wrote:
| Right, one has to assume that a good vat for the brain looks
| pretty much like the body itself :)
| aliqot wrote:
| I just want my vat to have a good hairline. Is that so much
| to ask of the future?
| tines wrote:
| The "brain in a vat" concept only really makes sense if you are
| willing to draw a distinction between the conscious part and
| other parts of the body, i.e. if you are willing to admit that
| some parts of the world are mechanistic (the external world,
| the function of our eyes, sense of smell, etc) and some parts
| (including the brain) are not. If you are willing to admit
| that, then the brain-in-a-vat scenario says that you can
| emulate all these mechanical parts and feed the brain fake
| information, and the brain can't tell the difference. An
| envatted brain _can_ be isolated from the body because it only
| knows the information at its own boundaries, i.e. at the
| boundary of the mechanistic and the non-mechanistic.
|
| If the point of your post is to say that the boundary is larger
| than that of the brain itself, but extends to the nervous
| system, gut bacteria, etc. then I think one could counter that
| all those things are relatively easily replaced by simulations
| and therefore don't need to be part of the brain in the vat to
| make the thought experiment work. A person can lose arms and
| legs and intestines and still be perfectly conscious.
|
| If you say that the brain itself could be replaced by a
| simulation and not lose any qualities, then the brain-in-a-vat
| thought experiment doesn't really mean anything for you because
| there would be nothing special about a brain anyway, and the
| scenario is vacuous.
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| > A person can lose arms and legs and intestines and still be
| perfectly conscious.
|
| You can also lose parts of your brain and be totally fine!
|
| I'm not sure this proves as much as you think, though I do
| tend to agree.
| tines wrote:
| > parts
|
| key word :)
| ChildOfChaos wrote:
| Tim Spector seems like a good source on this stuff, I listened to
| some podcasts of his and he's doing some work here in the UK with
| Zoe, where they test you and figure out a nuturion plan for you
| based on your gut bacteria and what is best for you personally.
| neonate wrote:
| http://web.archive.org/web/20230124132159/https://www.bbc.co...
|
| https://archive.ph/Z5vh0
| VieEnCode wrote:
| Why post an archive link? Nothing from the BBC is behind a
| paywall.
| thinkingemote wrote:
| I get gut pain sometimes, on a semi regular basis. The day before
| the pain hits I have mild-euphoria, clear thinking, positive
| outlook, lots of energy, more social and extravert. It's not
| normal.
|
| Something is going on with the brain and my gut.
|
| It's possible that it's endorphins being released to stop any
| pain ... but this is about 24 hours before the crippling cramps
| start, and it's more a mood shift than pain killing. Before this
| great 24 hour, I'm normal baseline okay state.
| [deleted]
| sva_ wrote:
| > The day before the pain hits I have mild-euphoria, clear
| thinking, positive outlook, lots of energy, more social and
| extravert. It's not normal.
|
| Some might say that you got it backwards and this would be
| preferably your "normal".
|
| First thing I'd do would probably be to document in detail what
| you're eating on those days and if any pattern emerges. Try
| eliminating things, if there is any pattern. Sounds a lot like
| lactose intolerance to me. I used to have it, but managed to
| get rid off it.
| basch wrote:
| I have to wonder what the prevalence of psychedelics and
| antidepressants has done at a population level to change us.
|
| A Multidisciplinary Hypothesis about Serotonergic Psychedelics.
| Is it Possible that a Portion of Brain Serotonin Comes From the
| Gut? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36137971/
|
| Seeking the Psilocybiome: Psychedelics meet the microbiota-gut-
| brain axis
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S169726002...
|
| Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors and the Gut Microbiome:
| Significance of the Gut Microbiome in Relation to Mechanism of
| Action, Treatment Response, Side Effects, and Tachyphylaxis
| https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.6828...
| jassyr wrote:
| Can't speak at the population level, but on a personal,
| anecdotal level I very reluctantly started taking an SSRI a few
| years ago and my life is substantially better. YMMV.
| [deleted]
| yosito wrote:
| In the last three years, something related to my gut-brain
| connection got fucked. I'm not sure if it was some kind of post-
| viral inflammation causing stress, or stress of isolation causing
| inflammation. But it's definitely a two way street and mine got
| completely stuck in a feedback loop. The mainstream medical
| system failed to help me. Eventually some functional medicine
| doctors managed to help me improve via diet, supplements, herbal
| remedies and probiotics. Through (risky) experimentation and
| happenstance I found even more relief with some traditional
| medicines (pure Greek mastiha sap, kambo and Ayahuasca) and anti-
| malarial pills I had taken for unrelated reasons.
|
| Unfortunately the mainstream medical system has been completely
| unable to investigate or explain what is going on with my body,
| but anecdotally, the theory that there is a two way street
| between gut bacteria and the brain completely aligns with my
| experience.
|
| I'm feeling better now, though my stomach still feels sensitive
| and I can no longer tolerate gluten.
| valarauko wrote:
| What's the issues you've been facing, and why do you think it's
| a gut-brain issue?
| yosito wrote:
| Constipation, headaches, stress, bloating, anxiety,
| depression, fatigue, weight loss, hair loss, rashes.
|
| I don't know what the cause was, but the gut-brain theory
| fits all of my experience and treatments aimed at improving
| my gut bacteria helped the most, and there has definitely
| been a strong connection between how my gut is feeling and
| how my mind is feeling.
| valarauko wrote:
| If you're experiencing an improvement, great. It seems
| reasonable that your gut issues (if nothing else) could be
| improved by addressing the gut biome.
|
| Since you've had some luck with traditional medicines, I
| can share my $0.02 about the traditional system I'm
| somewhat familiar with. In traditional Indian folk
| medicine, the focus for practically everything seems to
| revolve around improving gut health. It's a common belief
| that tongue health is a reflection of gut health, so for
| example a coated tongue suggests a sluggish digestive
| system, and the physician will seek to address that before
| anything else. A lot of treatments also include required
| dietary changes (like avoiding certain vegetables).
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| > like avoiding certain vegetables
|
| I've never heard of this. Western medicine says "all the
| vegetables, all the time". What are some of the
| vegetables people told to avoid? Genuinely curious.
| valarauko wrote:
| I have to plead ignorance on the specifics, since it's
| not something I've consulted myself, so unsure if it's a
| universal suggestion or whether each person gets tailor
| made recommendations - though I think it's the latter
| (based on conversations with people who did consult a
| traditional physician). Collectively, I've heard
| recommendations against tomatoes, eggplants, certain
| pulses common in the Indian diet, some leafy vegetables,
| okra, colocasia (leaves and tubers), and milk. At least
| in some cases, the dietary restrictions were supposed to
| last at least while they took the traditional
| medications.
| kzrdude wrote:
| Autoimmune Protocol diets commonly favour leafy greens a
| lot while telling you to avoid too starchy veg and
| everything in the potato-tomato family ("nightshades").
| Very abbreviated it would be "eat green veg, fish and
| meat."
| wxnx wrote:
| Even in Western medicine (at the research stage, at
| least), that is not necessarily true in patients
| suffering from certain conditions.
|
| There is some evidence (in the sense of evidence-based
| medicine) that a low-FODMAP (fermentable *saccharides)
| diet reduces symptoms in patients with irritable bowel
| syndrome. [1]
|
| As far as vegetables go, according to one site high-
| FODMAP vegetables include alliums and artichokes. [2]
|
| It is worth noting that the authors of the linked review
| paper caution that it is unknown whether a low-FODMAP
| diet may have long-term adverse effects.
|
| [1] doi:10.2147/CEG.S86798
|
| [2] https://www.monashfodmap.com/about-fodmap-and-
| ibs/high-and-l...
| hanniabu wrote:
| Have you ever done a hydrogen methane breath test? Curious
| if it could be SIBO-C.
| sgarman wrote:
| This is a bit of a vent so apologies in advance but as
| someone who has been though the same thing OP has I have
| heard this suggestion from literally everyone. Even if
| you do the test and it's test results are accurate it's
| not 100% clear what to do with that information - it's
| mostly the same stuff OP would have or did already try.
| dinosaurdynasty wrote:
| It's common to take a 2 week course of something like
| Xifaxan (an antibiotic that works in the small intestine)
| after a positive SIBO test, which is not something you
| can do without a doctor/gastroenterologist prescribing it
| for you.
|
| -- someone who tested positive for a hydrogen/methane
| breath test and just finished a 2 week course of Xifaxan
| d23 wrote:
| Can I ask for a recommendation for the professional you
| worked with?
| popotamonga wrote:
| I got the opposite experience. I have IBD and recently started
| on some potent probiotics. Suddenly my energy and focus went up
| 1000%. So this is how regular people healthy live wow. I used
| to be lethargic all the time for 30+ years.
| moneywoes wrote:
| What probiotics?
| popotamonga wrote:
| vsl3. i tried some others before (all given by doctor) and
| had massive diarrhea. i guess each person is different.
| Tade0 wrote:
| Recently, for the first time in my life, I took probiotics
| after a course of prescribed antibiotics.
|
| I don't need coffee any more to function and I finally feel
| _full_ after eating - strongly so even.
|
| If it's really the probiotics, then I regret never taking
| them before - especially after antibiotics.
| user1029384756 wrote:
| Putting this out there in case it may help others: My mother
| suffered from GERD for years and years and about two years
| ago, her condition seemed to have taken a turn for the worse.
| We're talking waking up in the middle of the night projectile
| vomiting. Constant heartburn, burping and indigestion after
| meals and daily constipation. The doctors were completely
| unable to help except to recommend antacids and possibly PPI
| medication which can have serious side-effects.
|
| I put her on a prebiotic + probiotic diet (kaffir, yogurt,
| whole grains, dark leafy greens, etc) along with a basic
| probiotic supplement every night and now according to her, at
| least 95% of the symptoms have gone away. She's able to sleep
| through the night now, better mood, better energy, better
| everything.
|
| Not saying it will work for everyone, but it worked for her.
| I feel like so little is understood about the gut microbiome
| and modern medicine is letting people suffer needlessly.
|
| Edit: just realized this sounds exactly like a paid
| infomercial lol
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| What are the side-effects for PPIs? I've been taking them
| for almost 2 decades for GERD without anything too specific
| coming up.
|
| I check my B12 levels from time to time and they seem ok.
|
| My hemoglobin is always a bit low and iron supplements
| don't seem to help.
|
| What other things are common with long-term PPI use?
| lg wrote:
| Lowering stomach acid can throttle calcium absorption so
| is linked to osteoporosis but i don't know how common
| that is in practice.
| [deleted]
| graeme wrote:
| Which one was it? I've heard about Vsl-3 as being medical
| grade
| popotamonga wrote:
| That one exactly. Expensive as crap and hard to find in my
| country but it's priceless.
| graeme wrote:
| Edit: Do you take the one I linked, or this prescription
| grade extra strength? https://www.visbiome.com/collection
| s/all/products/visbiome-e...
|
| ($6.2/day without insurance coverage)
|
| -----
|
| Thanks! For anyone in Canada wondering, I just searched
| and apparently you can buy it online now. About $2 a day:
| https://www.visbiome.com/collections/all/products/visbiom
| e-c...
|
| I had looked years ago and found it hard to get. Going to
| check with my doctor, might be something prescribable,
| which would either make it covered by insurance or at the
| least a tax deductible health expense.
| d23 wrote:
| What's up with this? https://vsl3.com/assets/v1/patient/f
| iles/FactSheetVSL3Jun202...
|
| Just went to their site and it sketched me out a bit to
| read this.
| jassyr wrote:
| As far as I can tell it's a business/patent dispute.
|
| https://www.visbiome.com/blogs/visbiome-vs-vsl-3/exegi-
| wins-...
| bch wrote:
| > pure Greek mastiha sap
|
| Mmm. The root for the word "masticate" (the resin is used like
| chewing gum), and the "piney" flavour in Greek halva (among
| other things). Notably, a collection of trees on one Greek
| islands (Chios) were under threat from forest fire a few years
| ago[0].
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Chios_Forest_Fire
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