[HN Gopher] The Mystery of the Dune Font ___________________________________________________________________ The Mystery of the Dune Font Author : edent Score : 279 points Date : 2023-01-27 09:01 UTC (13 hours ago) (HTM) web link (fontsinuse.com) (TXT) w3m dump (fontsinuse.com) | prepend wrote: | > Strangely enough, the name of this typeface is barely known | even among die-hard fans. | | This doesn't seem strange to me at all. I'm a fan of many books | and I don't know the name of any of the typefaces. I think it's | funny that this author links fandom for fonts to fandom for Dune | and thinks people interested in Dune are also interested in | typefaces. | | I like this article and was curious about the distinctive "dune | font." But not enough to Google it in the past 40 years. | narag wrote: | Maybe he meant _typography_ die-hard fans. | prepend wrote: | Perhaps. The context made me think it was Dune fans. | | I would think most typography fans wouldn't even be aware of | Dune. | narag wrote: | To be honest, the same sentence caught my eye. I can | imagine there are some fans of both Dune and Typography. | But it's more probable that it's due to some effect I've | been observing for a while. Not sure if it has a name, all | these pieces of Internet wisdom have a name, like "Gell-Man | Amnesia", "Godwin's Law"... maybe I could call it narag's | effect? | | I mean that any YouTube channel or Instagram account, that | has some niche topic as focus, tend to greatly exagerate | what is considered a normal engagement with such topic. | | As an example, most persons own one watch and one perfume, | if any. If you want to buy a new wristwatch or perfume and | do your little research, you'll find reviewers that own | hundreds of perfumes or dozens of watches, some of them | ridiculously expensive. Why? You can create a channel that | helps the viewers to choose their one and only cheap | purchase, but good luck monetizing that. You need recurring | visitors, to improve your watching times. Brand deals also | require you are able to send whales to the vendors. | | The noble art of Typography and a blog seem a little too | sober of a setup to fit that description, but who knows, | I'm sure there are pros very passionate about typesetting. | | https://www.quotes.net/mquote/907087 | ZeroGravitas wrote: | That Dune Calendar from 1978 would work for this year too. Wonder | if there's high quality scans available? | | Edit: Reasonable scan here: | | https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/bh17j5/the_dune_calen... | mustacheemperor wrote: | Wow, the artwork is just beautiful. I wish this could get a re- | release now that the new movies are introducing Dune to a new | audience. | ChickenNugger wrote: | [dead] | pklausler wrote: | I always enjoy seeing the "Dune" font in unexpected places, such | as the logo of the Washington Square Mall in the western burbs of | Portland (OR), and wonder whether there's a Herbert fan somewhere | with a sense of accomplishment for having used it. | enriquto wrote: | None of these covers shows "the" Dune font, for me. The first | edition of Dune had a very stylized calligraphy that looked like | arabic. I remember it vividly since my dad had this book in the | living room, among others; and when I was learning to read, this | was the only cover that I couldn't read at all. (It was a | translation, but with the same cover.) | | These letters are shown on the wikipedia page about the novel: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune_%28novel%29 | | EDIT: The covers of some modern french translations are also | incredible. Just the four letters D U N E, which are exactly the | same shape but rotated 90 degrees. It's an incredibly simple and | effective design. | ernesth wrote: | > EDIT: The covers of some modern french translations are also | incredible. Just the four letters D U N E, which are exactly | the same shape but rotated 90 degrees. It's an incredibly | simple and effective design. | | Indeed, the _Robert Laffont_ 2020 edition looks great: | https://www.noosfere.org/livres/EditionsLivre.asp?numitem=13... | smithza wrote: | I was wondering where I got that copy. My old one had its | binding failed and I purchased this Robert Laffont special | edition (an email promo maybe?). Thanks for pointing it out | for me. | wazoox wrote: | Yes the metal cover with forms changing with the light are | great, look almost like holograms, extremely SciFi! The | static pictures can't make them justice. | n1b0m wrote: | That makes sense given Herbert borrowed heavily from Middle | Eastern, Islamic mythology | Semaphor wrote: | > Just the four letters D U N E, which are exactly the same | shape but rotated 90 degrees. It's an incredibly simple and | effective design. | | For those interested: https://m.media- | amazon.com/images/P/B08HPFCMLS.01._SCLZZZZZZ... | MalcolmDwyer wrote: | Some Unicode variants: | | to te ti ta | | to te ti ttha | | [?] [?] [?] [?] | | Edit to add one more... | | [?] [?] [?] [?] | edaemon wrote: | I imagine most people are aware but the second variant you | have there is essentially what was used for the most recent | movie: | http://www.impawards.com/2021/posters/dune_ver16_xlg.jpg | djur wrote: | There were a lot of "DUNC" jokes about the poster, like | that the main character was named "Dunc". (Real Dune | heads may have some "well, actually" thoughts about | that.) | yellowapple wrote: | I reckon Dune fans find all sorts of deeper meaning in | the hit B-52s song "Private Idaho". | radiowave wrote: | Ah, as if raked into the sand. Brilliant. | Zecc wrote: | See also: Sun Microsystems' logo | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sun-Logo.svg | danparsonson wrote: | Gosh I've seen that so many times before and yet never | really _looked_ at it until now. | Cockbrand wrote: | When I went to my first computer fair as a teenager, I saw | the Sun Microsystems booth and was blown away by the | fantastic logo. As I had never seen a Unix machine before, | I didn't know what to do with the computers on display, | though. | noisy_boy wrote: | The very first Unix I was exposed to was from Sun; I | remember seeing the logo on their servers and thinking | that those were the most beautiful computers I had seen | (which isn't much because I had hardly seen any servers | before that). I still remember that one of those came | with a key (forgot whether to turn it on or lock the | power button panel?) | dylan604 wrote: | Didn't Sun computers run Irix? Is Irix Unix? | detaro wrote: | IRIX was SGI, not Sun (and anyways yes, it's a Unix). | dylan604 wrote: | Thanks for clarifying. I always thought these other named | systems were Unix-like but not Unix but without going all | recursive like GNU with the naming | TickleSteve wrote: | The history of UNIX is complex... | | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Unix) | an1sotropy wrote: | Suns ran Solaris, of course. | jjtheblunt wrote: | SunOS was BSD-ish originally, then around 1994 they | shifted to a more SVR4 variant and rebranded to Solaris. | I think Solaris 2.x was SVR4 and Solaris 1.x was BSD | retronaming of what was SunOS named earlier. | | It's been a while so I may not have the numbers quite | right. | | Anyway, there was some overlap in nomenclature, so a | version bump of the SunOS naming (and Solaris numbering) | implied a shift from BSD-ish to SVR4-ish, as I recall. | | (And I worked for Sun for a while after that, and used | Suns a ton around the shift) | derbOac wrote: | Thanks for pointing that out, as I had almost forgotten about | that first edition. | | I was trying to remember where I had heard of Chilton, the | publisher of the first edition, and realized it was automotive | manuals! | | The story of that first edition is interesting and somewhat | sad, although maybe edifying and not alone in publishing and | other forms of narrative arts. | serallak wrote: | I remember reading that, because the editor was as you said | better know for its technical manuals, a friend of Herbert | joked that maybe they thought to publish an Ornithopter | maintenance guide. | BadOakOx wrote: | > Just the four letters D U N E, which are exactly the same | shape but rotated 90 degrees. | | This is what they went with for the movie posters too: | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/Dune_%282021_... | ...although, they cheated a bit with the E. | | EDIT: Here is a better resolution: | https://image.tmdb.org/t/p/original/2sxSn0jjjQoIIZfZjC6j5GZk... | :) | wkat4242 wrote: | It reminds me a bit of a visit to the optician :) | thisOtterBeGood wrote: | DUNC :D:D | | They went for the right decision there, I wouldn't call it | cheating. It's a nice to incorporate the | importance/uniqueness of that planet in the dune world. They | could've just went for a horizontal line/pipe and noone | wouldve cared. | sandworm101 wrote: | I liked the original cover because it is the only one with a | truly alien landscape. Once the movies started being discussed, | Dune became and an earth desert with earth-like sandstone | rocks. Look at the rocks in the original cover. They were | different enough to clearly not be from earth geology. | dunefox wrote: | That's not arabic, rather just cursive. | xwdv wrote: | Many children have grown up these days without learning | cursive in school, thus every time they see squiggly fonts | they think Arabic first. | caskstrength wrote: | > Many children have grown up these days without learning | cursive in school, thus every time they see squiggly fonts | they think Arabic first. | | Wait, are you saying that children in US schools write in | block letters these days? That must be slow! | dymk wrote: | Given the Arakkis language is based on Arabic, I would not | be surprised that the typographic design of Dune fonts is | supposed to evoke a feeling of Arabic | ZeroGravitas wrote: | My grandmother noticed graffiti tags, which are very ornate | generally, and concluded that they were written in arabic. | esrauch wrote: | I'm old enough to have mainly used cursive in school and I | definitely had the thought that it seemed like a vaguely | arabic-inspired cursive when I saw it the flourishes on the | D. | landhar wrote: | The flourishes in the D of that cover are exactly how I was | taught to write the uppercase D in cursive at school. I | remember (as a kid) thinking it was odd that to write a `D` | one had to start by writing an `I`, but never questioned | it. | | But from looking at examples of cursive on google images, | it seems like that form is no longer as prominent. | bbarnett wrote: | _The flourishes in the D of that cover are exactly how I | was taught to write the uppercase D in cursive at | school._ | | We've now established that you went to school in Arab, | and this is why you wrote D in Arabic, for at no point | did you counter this logic. | | (I am using chatgpt reasoning here) | SamBam wrote: | But quite clearly designed to draw a connection to the | Bedouin-inspired Fremen, and general North African-like | setting. | peepee1982 wrote: | I disagree. | | The wide gamut in line thickness and the orientation of it is | typical for Arabic fonts, but not for cursive ones. | | Personally, this kind of line reminds me of a arab dagger | even. | drivers99 wrote: | The variations in line thickness are exactly what you'd get | with a calligraphy pen (and pens before ball points like | fountain pens, quills) and are a function of the consistent | direction of the pen and the smoothly varying direction the | line is being written. So you will see it in all old | pen/quill writing styles. | [deleted] | dvh wrote: | I have nothing to add to the font aspect but here's fellow HNer's | advice how to approach these books: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20859569 | jonah-archive wrote: | re the advice in that post -- I completely agree but I would | say that if you enjoy God Emperor (I do, deeply), between that | and Heretics go read _The Dune Encyclopedia_, which is a hard- | to-find paperback but an easy-to-find PDF written as an in- | universe encyclopedia set after God Emperor. Yes, some things | in it are contradicted by the remaining two books, but it adds | such a powerful structure to the extant universe in a | remarkably satisfying way. | mathieuh wrote: | I've read the Frank Herbert Dune books back-to-back several | times and love them all, but I've never tried his son's | additions to the series because I've read a few people saying | they're not worth the time. Do you agree? | jonah-archive wrote: | IMHO the Dune Encyclopedia (written in collaboration with | Frank Herbert) does a much better job elucidating aspects | of the Dune Universe in an interesting way than Brian's | books do -- there's a narrative thread that weaves through | the last three of Frank's books that is really, really | present and which Brian's books set aside for an | alternative -- and to my view, much less satisfying -- | interpretation of late-stage events in the series. | Aeolun wrote: | It's not that they're not worth the time, but they're | clearly written by someone else, and try to attach onto a | cohesive whole in a way that doesn't quite feel right. | cmrdporcupine wrote: | They're quite bad, and I doubt very much they are based on | Frank Herbert's "found notes" in any way. If they are, | Brian Herbert should publish those notes, like Christopher | Tolkien did. | | Lower quality writing, and not thoughtful, and the story | arc they take things in seems much cruder than what Frank | Herbert would have had in mind. | shagie wrote: | The trick in following from notes is that you need to | _become_ the author. | | Consider Variable Star by Spider Robinson which is based | on 7 surviving pages of 8 pages of notes written in 1955 | by Robert A. Heinlein. | | http://www.spiderrobinson.com/reilly.html | | > So I went home, and received a copy of Robert's outline | and notes, and loved them, and wrote two sample chapters | and a proposal and a title (Robert had put down seven | possible titles, but even he didn't like any of them | much), and they were all approved by Art Dula, and in the | fullness of time the book, to be known as "ROBERT A. | HEINLEIN'S VARIABLE STAR by Spider Robinson," sold to Tor | for the proverbial six figures. | | > Since then, little dividends of joy keep coming in, | like the receding ripples of pleasure that accompany a | truly great orgasm--and sometimes, if you're lucky, | signal that it's about to become a multiple. For example, | Art Dula moved me to tears by sending me, out of the | blue, Robert's desk dictionary, heavily used and | carefully repaired--Robert Heinlein's personal box of | words. He filled out the package with a pound of | authentic Jamaica Blue Mountain. Similarly, sweet Amy | sent me a set of her grandfather's cufflinks to wear as I | type VARIABLE STAR, and Jeanne a few pieces of her | grandmother's jewelry to wear for me when I stumble from | the typewriter. I feel supported and encouraged by the | whole Heinlein family and legacy. That makes me the | luckiest writer alive. And one of the luckiest readers. | | When writing it, he had the same "these are the words | that you are to use while writing as Heinlein." | | One of the reviews | http://www.spiderrobinson.com/variablefans.html | | > This novel should be the example held forth when | writers collaborate. Spider has perfectly captured the | pacing, feel and stature of a Robert Heinlein story while | retaining his own identity. It doesn't feel like someone | trying to "write like Heinlein", but like someone who's | read every book the man's written so many times it's | second nature. | | https://bookshop.org/p/books/variable-star-robert-a- | heinlein... | | > "Completing a book from notes by a dead author is | almost always a mistake. But Robert A. Heinlein | apparently isn't really dead. He was obviously standing | at the side of Spider Robinson as he wrote this book, | guiding his hand. Variable Star will delight the fans of | the greatest science fiction writer who ever lived, and | at the same time, stays true to Spider's passionate | themes of optimism, kindness, and humanity's future among | the stars." --John Varley, Hugo and Nebula Award-winning | author of The Persistence of Vision and Steel Beach | | This is the way to do continuations - not fan fiction | but, for lack of a better word, channeling the spirit of | the original author so that you can become them and use | the same style rather than imposing your own style on top | of their world. | cmrdporcupine wrote: | I think Christopher Tolkien pretty much did this. And | what was great was the way he edited (with his father's | blessing), did a small amount of continuation, as well as | published the original notes, so we could all see the | authorial process. | | However in Tolkien's case, there was an explicit father | son work relationship that was grounded in their mutual | love and family life, and the fact that both had similar | education, etc. | | My understanding is Brian Herbert was estranged from his | father and they had a bad relationship. | | And Brian Herbert brought in an outside writer (Kevin J | Anderson) to do a lot (most?) of the actual writing. | | The world of Dune fans would have been better served if | Herbert had simply published his father's notes, maybe | with some annotations or reflections. | | Given the above, and as hasn't provided those notes and | documents he apparently found, and as the plot veers | quite a bit in tone from what Frank Herbert seemed to me | to have in mind, I actually have a hard time believing | the notes he is apparently working from actually exist. | | Further, the published works he has created are really | not good. | dunefox wrote: | It's just Dune fan fiction... | giantrobot wrote: | It's just a model! | latch wrote: | I'm not the parent, but I've also read all the original 6 | books a great number of times, as well as about 7 or 8 of | the B. Herbert/K. Anderson Dune books, and I'd say they | aren't worth it. | | They largely explain things that, as far as I'm concerned, | didn't need explaining. As you probably know, they wrote a | 2 book conclusion to the series. These 2 books largely tie | the Frank Herbert Dune universe with the B. Herbert/K. | Anderson Dune universe. And that seemed quite forced to me | and, cynically, felt like an attempt to force you to read | their Dune prequel trilogy (because otherwise, you'll be | WTF is Erasmus?) I feel like Frank Herbert, being an | immensely better writer, would have been able to conclude | the series without forcing a prequel trilogy onto readers. | | It wasn't until I read some of the more immediate books | (universe time-wise) from the duo that I came to appreciate | how effortless Frank Herbert's writing is. Gurney Halleck | is loyal, he just is. And that loyalty is clearly based on | respect for the Duke, being on the side of "good", and a | hate for the Harkonnen. We don't need a justification for | Halleck's devotion. It's pure and effortless character | development. The duo doesn't have that seem ease of | writing, so instead we get the back story, torture and rape | (lazy themes) that tainted the character/original work. | indymike wrote: | > These 2 books largely tie the Frank Herbert Dune | universe with the B. Herbert/K. Anderson Dune universe. | And that seemed quite forced to me and, cynically, felt | like an attempt to force you to read their Dune prequel | trilogy | | I really like the Frank Herbert books. They are on my | favorites shelf. The sequel/prequel books were just ok, | and felt like they were trying to fill in details that | were left to the reader by Frank Herbert. By filling in | the details, I'm sure the thought was we are completing | the story... but that story was already told. | jonah-archive wrote: | I totally agree with this. One of the strengths of the | original Dune series is how willing Frank Herbert is to | leave things unsaid -- it's a complex universe that has | lost a lot of knowledge, just like ours! It covers | timespans that admit archaeology! The idea that there's | an accessible succinct narrative arc that ties the story | up in a neat little bow is antithetical to the strengths | of the original series, in my opinion. | bena wrote: | That may the difference between good world-building and | what people think good world-building is. | | People think that if the author doesn't know everything | about the world, it's not "fleshed out". But if you look | to some of the best fiction out there, the world is more | suggested than built. | | I think a good example of this is George Lucas. He went | from good to bad by doing the thing people perceived as | good. In the original Star Wars trilogy, things just are. | The Clone Wars were a line. A throwaway to explain why | Leia was seeking out Obi-Wan never having even seen the | man. Han and all of his pre-trilogy relationships are | given surface level explanations. You never go deep. What | happens between A New Hope and Empire is suggested, | alluded to, but never explained. And why should they be | explained? All the characters _know_ these things. There | 's no need to exposit these things again. You're given | the impression that there exists a much larger world than | the small window you've seen. | | Then, in the prequel trilogy, everything is presented as | backstory to some other element. Stormtroopers are the | successors of the Clone Troopers who are cloned from | Jango Fett who had a clone made of himself he named Boba. | Of course, Jango is also a bounty hunter. Anakin is from | Tatooine. Chewbacca rolled with Yoda back in the day. We | know, biologically, exactly what allows people to access | the Force. And on and on. Everything is given an | explanation. And that, ironically, makes the world feel a | lot smaller. | devaler wrote: | This a really strong, and very good breakdown of the | problems with the prequels. They essentially take the | complex, developed characters of Frank Herbert and turn | them into into trite caricatures of themselves. | andrewla wrote: | I loved Dune, and while I don't think all the original | sequels were as strong, I enjoyed them all and have | reread them several times over the years. | | I slogged my way through the first couple of his son's | work, but I read the first page of Butlerian Jihad and, | for the first time in my life, threw the book against the | wall and tossed it in the garbage. | Inside his pyramid-shaped vessel, the cymek general | Agamemnon led the attack. Logical thinking machines | did not care about glory or revenge. But Agamemnon | certainly did. Fully alert inside his preservation | cannister, his human brain watched the plans unfold. | | If you're a fan of Dune and made it all the way through | this paragraph without feeling ill, then you're a | stronger person than I. | themadturk wrote: | I so wanted the Bulterian Jihad story to be good, or at | least decent, because it was always the most intriguing | part of the prehistory to me. Oh well. | int_19h wrote: | There are strong indicators that "Jihad" was used not in | a sense of armed struggle there, but more akin to a | social revolution; "thinking machines" were declared a | problem not because they were a physical threat a la | Saberhagen's Berserkers, but because their influence on | society was deemed overly negative. | | Given that, a book that would cover the Jihad would | probably be another philosophical treatise in the vein of | God-Emperor of Dune. | kevin_thibedeau wrote: | Sounds like the hackneyed portrayal of Harkonnen as a | super villain who has to refer to himself in the third | person while exposition dumping his plan to a nephew who | already knows who he is. | toast0 wrote: | It's interesting (and perhaps accurate) that you critique | the use of lazy themes in backstory, but praise the | effortlessness of leaving the backstory out. (I've not | read the new stuff myself) | gerikson wrote: | I tried reading the first and couldn't get through it. | runevault wrote: | I'm someone who stopped after God Emperor because I was under | the impression the next books were an arc and it stops in a | weird place if you end where Herbert did because of his | passing. | | It was interesting because I struggled with Dune, made it to | the time skip, and stopped. Then the recent movie came out, I | decided to read the rest, enjoyed it far more, and kept going. | Blasted through Messiah through God Emperor pretty quickly with | I think only one pause to get another book in that had just | come out. | | God Emperor is certainly not for everyone but I enjoyed it a | great deal. | [deleted] | dmitriid wrote: | My personal take (having read the entire series including the | tacked-on ending by the son) is: | | The first Dune is the result of research and thinking. Great | care went into it. Every subsequent book is more and more of | "oh, here's a sequel". I can't remember anything after _God | Emperor_ which in itself was a slog bordering of abysmally bad. | | So: | | - _Dune_. Yes. It 's slow, long, but ultimately very good | | - _Dune Messiah_. Maybe | | - _Children of Dune_. Can already be skipped | | - Skip the rest of the series, they are not worth it. At all | | YMMV :) | simonh wrote: | I really like Dune Messiah. Most of it was written before the | original book was published, and supposedly it was going to | be part of it but had to be cut or the book would be too | long. It's certainly part of Herbert's original creative | vision for the story. However I know a lot of people read it | and find the apparent inversion of the story arc | uncomfortable to the point of dislike, but for me it's an | essential piece of the puzzle to understand what Paul is | actually going through in the first book, and the extreme | lengths he's prepared to go through and sacrifices he's | prepared to make to shift the trajectory of events. | | The problem is that just like the other characters the in | novel, Paul's family, adherents and friends, a lot of readers | just want an uncomplicated hero story for him. | cmrdporcupine wrote: | God Emperor is a slog, but it's IMHO brilliant in its own | way. And along with the two books after it, it creates a | whole new philosophical universe than the first three, which | were a story about Paul. It's best to kind of treat it almost | as two different series with God Emperor the bridge. | | God Emperor and beyond are far more cerebral and | philosophical, expressing some more far more abstract ideas | Herbert had about man vs machine, liberty/freedom vs tyranny, | etc. etc. | | Unfortunately the second series was not completed. Herbert | clearly had a direction he was going after Chapterhouse, but | he wasn't able to follow through. | jon-wood wrote: | For me the sequels never hit the same highs as Dune, but | they're still better than most sci-fi novels that have been | written, and I love how they gradually lean ever further into | just being really weird. God Emperor is probably the pinnacle | of that. I don't remember much of Heretics or Chapterhouse, I | should probably go back and re-read them at some point. | cmrdporcupine wrote: | You might find it interesting re-reading God Emperor and | its sequels in the context of today's LLM/ChatGTP etc | context. | | Herbert's focus on human vs not-human, machine-thinking vs | human-thinking, is very relevant. | jasonkester wrote: | Ah, shame. I was hoping to find my own comment on the subject | linked: | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15961291 | | Basically the same advice, but in a more condensed form. | GNOMES wrote: | Is there a name for the art style depicted on these covers? | They're beautifully done | sandworm101 wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Deco | | The covers are a 1960s minimalist deco design. Abrupt geometric | shapes, the sort of stuff that is easily printed/viewed using | the tech of the time. The colors are solid and few, which make | printing easy. The colors are also not absolutely necessary. | The shapes come through equally well in black and white media. | And if you want to look good on the low-res TV of the time, you | go with big solid shapes. No doubt these factors contributed to | the redesign of the original cover. | | Contrast the posters and covers of todays media. They like to | hide lots of little detail, perhaps to promote the use of | higher/brighter media formats. That's why FIFA got rid of the | old soccer balls. | TheRealPomax wrote: | Sorry, are we looking at the same covers? There is no 1960s | minimalism in the original covers, they are fairly detailed | 1970's scifi surrealism. | GNOMES wrote: | I normally see Art Deco in reference to buildings, furniture, | and cars. Guess I never actually looked at Art Deco | paintings/images before. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-01-27 23:00 UTC)