[HN Gopher] Roman church decorated with 4k skeletons
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Roman church decorated with 4k skeletons
Author : samizdis
Score : 137 points
Date : 2023-02-10 13:42 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.smithsonianmag.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.smithsonianmag.com)
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| There are plenty of chapels and crypts filled with bone/skull
| walls throughout catholic Europe, the author makes it look like
| this is quite unique and limited to three locations which is not
| entirely true.
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| Excuse me sir, but now you're making it look like they are
| ubiquitous.
|
| Pretty sure that's not the case either.
|
| So I appreciate this post, first time I hear of this.
| jansan wrote:
| If you want to see one of these places, I can recommend
| Sedlec Ossuary in Kutna Hora / Czech Republic. I contains
| about 50,000 skeletons, which basically make up all the
| interior decoration. It is interesting how you get used to
| being surrounded by skeletons.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedlec_Ossuary
|
| Edit: They also have a very nice gothic cathedral, a modern
| art museum and a silver mine that was turned into a museum in
| that city.
| wazoox wrote:
| Kutna Hora is incredible. There are 2 large gothic
| cathedrals there, 1 km from each other. The first one (next
| to the ossuary) has many martyrs skeletons clothed in gold
| and jewels, offered to the church by the Pope back in the
| 1500s (these are supposedly dead Romans from late Empire;
| their martyrdom is probably questionable).
|
| The other cathedral has the most bizarre roof, one third
| roof, one third domes, one third bell tower, and a
| wonderful organ well worth the visit, and many beautiful
| frescoes depicting the work that made this place so rich :
| silver mining.
| owlninja wrote:
| The first time I ever visited Prague we took an unplanned
| (no research) day trip to Kutna Hora just to see the bone
| church. The other cathedral down the street was amazing
| as well, but then to just be stumbling through the town
| and coming upon St. Barbara's Church was truly an
| experience. It got me hooked to continue travelling
| outside the US.
| xorcist wrote:
| That chandelier is really something extra!
| 988747 wrote:
| Found one in Poland as well:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_Chapel
|
| EDIT: and in Portugal https://www.ancient-
| origins.net/ancient-places-europe/story-...
|
| And in Czech Republic:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedlec_Ossuary
|
| And in Peru: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_and_Conve
| nt_of_San_Fr...
|
| And another list with 40 entries:
| https://www.atlasobscura.com/lists/definitive-guide-to-
| ossua...
| hef19898 wrote:
| The crypts under Stefans Dom in Vienna are well worth a
| visit. To cite a kid during my visit: "Is grand pa looking
| like thatvas well now?"
|
| Also, there are the Parus catacombs.
| tinglymintyfrsh wrote:
| Paris, I hope.
|
| There's a bag at the exit for visitors to return
| "souvenirs" if they change their mind.
| ginko wrote:
| If you're in Vienna you could also check out the
| Michaelergruft.
| LawnGnome wrote:
| I've been to the Portugese Chapel of Bones in Evora. The
| two things that really struck me were the sheer size of it
| -- I expected a tiny room, and instead it was a decently
| sized chapel -- and how every skull essentially looked the
| same. A stark reminder of how similar we all are in the
| end.
| [deleted]
| Wojtkie wrote:
| I've actually visited this place! It was a very informative visit
| and had a great museum attached. I found a lot of it beautiful
| glasss wrote:
| Oh man I thought it was 4K as in resolution and I was confused
| and intrigued.
| karaterobot wrote:
| Same here. I thought "wow, 4K skeletons? That's pretty hi-
| death."
| shadowgovt wrote:
| I was really tired of putting up with those standard
| definition skeletons.
| stewx wrote:
| And here I am with 1080 skeletons in my house.
| ndr wrote:
| Milan has its own:
|
| > In 1210, when an adjacent cemetery ran out of space, a room was
| built to hold bones. A church was attached in 1269. Renovated in
| 1679, it was destroyed by a fire in 1712. A new bigger church was
| then attached to the older one and dedicated to Saint Bernardino
| of Siena.
|
| Some pictures here:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bernardino_alle_Ossa
| cloudify wrote:
| On a similar vein, if you visit Milan, go see "San Bernardino
| alle ossa", little known but quite worth a visit!
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bernardino_alle_Ossa#/medi...
| martyvis wrote:
| A former primary school colleague (we met 50 years ago next
| year!) and his daughter wrote a pretty decent book on death
| anxiety - "Mortals: How the Fear of Death Shaped Human Society"
| https://good-grief.com.au/mortals-with-ross-and-rachel-menzi...
| racl101 wrote:
| I would not sleep in that room.
| Earw0rm wrote:
| So many metal album covers in this.
| [deleted]
| milleramp wrote:
| I wonder how they mount them to the wall and ceiling?
| ubermonkey wrote:
| The previous skeletons, which were rendered in traditional HD,
| have been moved to a less expensive media market.
| dylan604 wrote:
| James Cameron would be proud as they're even in 3D
| CharlesW wrote:
| Related tip for submitters: When HN's title processing
| inadvertently adds ambiguity, you can edit it immediately after
| to improve it.
|
| (Original title is, "Decorated With 4,000 Skeletons, This Roman
| Church Will Have You Pondering Your Own Mortality", too long
| for HN)
| martin-adams wrote:
| Let's hope there's no ghosting though
| VadimPR wrote:
| Beautiful place. The crypt includes a quote that really resonates
| with you - translated to English - "you are what we were; you
| will be what we are"
| soco wrote:
| "Wherever you go, death follows, as a body's shadow." (in the
| Paris catacombs)
| parabyl wrote:
| Truly beautiful place, and one of the more interesting museums
| I visited in Rome in terms of artifacts and such on display.
| [deleted]
| peter422 wrote:
| "Look alive, see these bones
|
| What you are now, we were once
|
| But just like we are, you'll be dust
|
| And just like we are, permanent"
|
| -Nada Surf "See These Bones"
| beezlebroxxxxxx wrote:
| Reminds me of some lines in the final stanza of Tennyson's
| _Ulysses_ :
|
| Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho' / We are not now that
| strength which in old days / Moved earth and heaven, that which
| we are, we are;
| pastor_bob wrote:
| Interesting thing about this place is that's it's illegal to
| decorate with Human Remains in Italy now, so if a bone falls off
| the wall, they legally can't put it back!
| smegsicle wrote:
| though there is a convenient loophole known as the 'five second
| rule'
| bmj wrote:
| "You will become what I am." (https://death-to-the-
| world.myshopify.com/products/you-will-b...)
| boredemployee wrote:
| these photos make me anxious for unknown reasons
| fishtacos wrote:
| You know why.
| boredemployee wrote:
| do I
| busyant wrote:
| My wife and I visited this place about 20 years ago.
|
| I remember a woman from Wisconsin laughing and proclaiming, _" We
| Lutherans would never do anything like this!"_
| parabyl wrote:
| Similar story, when I visited there was a school group from
| Northern Ireland talking about "The catholics were brutal
| weren't they!"
| inglor_cz wrote:
| A very similar place:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedlec_Ossuary
|
| The bones belong to about 40 thousand people. Realizing that this
| enormous boneyard is, by size, equivalent to 0,6 per cent of the
| Holocaust, is extremely sobering.
| photochemsyn wrote:
| A great many people are incredibly uncomfortable with the idea of
| death, and installations like this, and similar works of art, are
| a great antidote. Accepting death as the price of life might be a
| bit difficult for people raised in a culture that worships
| perpetual youth and which dreams of immortality, perhaps in the
| form of a digital silicon upload, but it's really a sign of
| maturity.
|
| Taking a minute or so out of every day to meditate upon the
| inevitablity of your own death is good for one's mental health -
| and can be motivating. If there's something you want to do, do it
| now - tomorrow is not guaranteed!
| mc32 wrote:
| There are some cultures that believe the remains of their
| ancestors are sacred. How would you encourage them to accept
| your POV?
| NoZebra120vClip wrote:
| Roman Catholic culture is one of those by far. What better
| way to attest to the sacredness of human remains but to
| incorporate them into the most sacred architecture we have?
|
| Human remains of Catholics are buried until their cause for
| canonization calls for exhumation and examination of the
| relics. By the time of canonization, division of the relics
| has begun and they are distributed for veneration to various
| communities and places. This is how we treat sacred remains:
| by making them accessible to all the faithful for viewing,
| veneration, and inspiration.
|
| What was your question again?
| timeon wrote:
| > Human remains of Catholics are buried until
|
| Until your family stops paying for the grave. Then someone
| else will get the place.
| mc32 wrote:
| And for those who aren't Catholic, or any religion or
| spirituality that doesn't have this interpretation?
| photochemsyn wrote:
| Do you mean, for example:
|
| https://blogs.icrc.org/law-and-policy/2018/11/01/respect-
| for...
|
| > "Respect for dead bodies manifests itself in diverse
| ways in different cultures around the world.In Islamic
| law and Muslim cultures, burying the dead in the ground
| is the correct way to respect dead bodies. Cremation is
| prohibited under Islamic law because, unlike in some
| cultures, it is considered a violation of the dignity of
| the human body."
|
| People from different cultures have to learn to respect
| one another's traditions if they're to live together in
| democratic societies, that's certainly true. Some people
| would instead destroy anything that offends their own
| particular views, unfortunately.
| akomtu wrote:
| A stable society stands on a set of shared principles,
| not on blind respect of each other traditions, no matter
| what those are.
|
| That no-cremation rule was made for a good reason, but
| that reason can't be explained to masses, hence the "just
| do what the sacred book tells you!" A dead body isn't
| completely dead, so it's better (more respectful, indeed)
| to keep it for two months, and then it can be burnt. But
| you can't keep the rotting corpse for so long due to
| diseases, so it's better to bury it, and once it's there
| it's silly to dig it out and burn. To skip these endless
| arguments, and the futile attemps to reason with common
| folk, the instructions are put into a sacred book.
| vintermann wrote:
| I don't think that's how it happened. You can make
| arguments for all sorts of burial practices.
|
| It was a classic argument, recounted by Herodotus:
|
| _When Darius was king, he summoned the Greeks who were
| with him and asked them what price would persuade them to
| eat their fathers' dead bodies. They answered that there
| was no price for which they would do it. Then he summoned
| those Indians who are called Callatiae, who eat their
| parents, and asked them (the Greeks being present and
| understanding by interpretation what was said) what would
| make them willing to burn their fathers at death. The
| Indians cried aloud, that he should not speak of so
| horrid an act._
|
| Herodotus used this anecdote, rather dubiously I think,
| it as an argument that everyone should stick to their own
| customs and not think too much about what other people
| do. But I think Darius himself, if it actually happened,
| used it more as an argument for tolerance, agnosticism -
| and cruelty.
|
| Because it's a bit cruel to shock the poor Greeks and
| Callatiae like that, isn't it? And rulers of most large
| (and thus multicultural) empires always seemed to be a
| bit on the cruel side to me.
|
| What do you do, when you encounter people, for whom
| everything you consider important, sacred, _meaningful_ ,
| just doesn't register at all, and they care about
| completely different things? Do you shut it out? Or do
| you allow yourself to drift towards indifference and
| nihilism, that maybe none of that stuff matters at all?
|
| As I recall, Popper called it "the strain of
| civilization", how it gnaws on people to have to deal
| with so many people who don't share their basic values of
| what's important in life. And how they can resort to
| isolationism and cruelty to cope with it.
|
| The Christian church's innovation was to seek a tight
| core of meaningful beliefs, with divine justifications of
| course, but be fairly tolerant of more secondary sources
| of meaning, those coming from custom and culture. Like
| Paul, who insisted that no food was forbidden to eat,
| even food that had been served up to idols, but that he'd
| nonetheless respect the dietary customs of the people he
| ate with because it was important to them ("Therefore, if
| what I eat causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat
| meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.")
|
| It was really the first truly multicultural faith, since
| up to then, faith, customs and culture had been one and
| the same.
|
| So it's not so out of character, really, that the
| Catholic church a few years ago ruled that the Madagascar
| custom of exhuming the dead and dancing with them wasn't
| contrary to the faith, since it was "just" a cultural
| practice and didn't necessarily imply any beliefs
| incompatible with Christianity.
| prewett wrote:
| I don't think viewing religious tradition as "we don't
| want to explain our reasoning to you plebs" is doing
| justice to the religion.
|
| I believe Catholicism does have a reason that is
| understandable by common folk: since Jesus will resurrect
| the faithful to be with him in the new heavens, earth,
| and Jerusalem (which are seen as physical, not an
| abstract "Heaven" like modern American evangelicals tend
| to see it), there needs to be a body to resurrect.
|
| (I'm not Catholic and never sure what Catholics actually
| believe, so I might be wrong here)
| NoZebra120vClip wrote:
| Well, formulated negatively, it can be said that the
| Church historically discouraged/forbade cremation because
| it has been employed by people to mock and deny the
| doctrine of the Resurrection.
|
| More practically, it is a practice which unnecessarily
| damages the sacred bodily remains and prevents them from
| future veneration. So it's much more difficult, if
| someone should become a saint, to distribute relics of a
| cremated body rather than bones and significant,
| identifiable parts of a buried/exhumed body.
|
| It's not like God won't find a way to resurrect bodies
| that have been dismembered, burned, disintegrated,
| destroyed, or what have you. He's God, it's no big deal.
| Glorified bodies are understood to be spiritual,
| otherworldly, and beyond our imagination, but there's
| also been a lot of work to describe what they're like and
| how they work.
|
| Cremation also led to abhorrent practices such as
| scattering ashes, or keeping them on a mantle, and in
| modern times, turning them into personal jewelry or
| launching them into space. The Church didn't like that
| stuff either. Personally speaking, my dear uncle's
| cremains are on my cousin's mantle and essentially
| inaccessible to me, since we're not on speaking terms.
| I'd really like to visit my uncle's grave, but _he doesn
| 't have one!_
|
| So even today, the Church forbids cremation if it's for
| the wrong reasons. But it's tolerated widely because it's
| often cheaper and expedient.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| A stable Society stands on shared principles, but those
| shared principles need not intrude into every aspect of
| life. In fact, I believe a stable Society is one which is
| very careful about which values it selects as universal
| [deleted]
| user3939382 wrote:
| "Who promised you tomorrow?" - St. Alphonsus Liguori,
| Preparation for Death
| Aeolun wrote:
| In some ways, the 10000+ previous days of my life are a
| fairly reasonable promise of tomorrow.
| tspike wrote:
| Gambler's fallacy
| [deleted]
| akomtu wrote:
| In a randomly sampled million individuals, what's the
| probability of any of them surviving another day?
|
| The gambler fallacy talks about a gambler who has won and
| believes that the cause that made him win is long
| lasting. But a living man is right to believe that he is
| alive due to forces that have a lot of momentum and won't
| vanish suddenly. The fallacy would be assuming that the
| man is exempt from accidents, that are unpredictable.
| skeaker wrote:
| "Okay, wow. You don't want me to kill you because you
| have so much to live for? Umm, sunk cost fallacy, heard
| of it?"
| brookst wrote:
| "No, no, I have an MBA, I'd never fall for sunk cost. I'm
| all in on the 'I'll travel the world and do all the crazy
| fun stuff after I retire' fallacy."
| jl6 wrote:
| They say past performance does not guarantee future
| results...
| darkarmani wrote:
| No guarantee but it is a good predictor on a long
| timeframe.
| [deleted]
| BeFlatXIII wrote:
| Being born is a death sentence.
| BizarreByte wrote:
| Some would say it's incredibly cruel to bring new life into
| existence for that very reason.
| Luc wrote:
| See interesting philosophy books 'Every Cradle is a
| Grave' and 'Better Never to Have Been'. Not for the
| easily depressed reader.
| BizarreByte wrote:
| Not for the easily depressed person and definitely not
| for the already depressed, but I consider them worth
| reading. It's an interesting perspective one isn't likely
| to encounter very much, if ever.
| gerdesj wrote:
| Yet those same people (whomever they are) continue to
| perpetuate their own "cruel" existence.
| bialpio wrote:
| You can try to do the best you can with the hand you got
| dealt but still wish you weren't at the table.
| BizarreByte wrote:
| The human mind makes it very hard for people to do
| anything but continue living. It takes an unbelievable
| amount of effort to overcome the natural safeguards our
| brain has built in. Someone can hate their life, find it
| exceptionally cruel, yet find themselves unable to end
| said life despite not waiting to live it.
|
| That aside, you can tolerate or even enjoy life while
| understanding that for many it's an absolutely awful
| experience they had no say in partaking in.
| brookst wrote:
| The living can consent
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Some people would say that, and in some cases they would
| be right. I don't particularly believe it to be true, but
| it is an interesting thought experiment
| scns wrote:
| The mind is great at birthing warped antinatural
| thoughts. Life has so many beatiful facets, if we allow
| ourselves to see them. Our conscious mind gets to
| perceive what passed our belief-filters. It's worth
| trying out new ones. Saying so as a depressed, anti-
| everything punk radiating hatred turned annoyingly
| positive optimist, who prefers ugly truths to comforting
| lies. Got there with a willingness to question my own
| behaviour, accept criticism (gifts) and taking
| responsibility for my screwups over two decades.
| echelon wrote:
| People were never seriously interested in extending their
| lives. I submit that there's a pretty easy, macabre (to most)
| way to go about it:
|
| Monoclonal antigen-free body farms. Grow human bodies in labs
| -- farmed donor bodies -- and get good at head transplants.
|
| This cures most cancers, most diseases, skipping the
| complicated molecular biology we've yet to solve for.
|
| Literally replace your whole body as it ages. You can renew
| the thymus (big!), circulatory, pulmonary system, etc. It
| would have a rejuvenating affect on the brain. You'd probably
| give humans 150-year lifespans with it. Be able to run
| marathons in your 70's.
|
| We'd suck at head transplants for decades (reducing patient
| outcomes in the initial period), but over time could probably
| get quite good at it. Initial patient populations could be
| recruited from terminal cancer patients, where the cancers
| have not spread to the blood or brain tissues. Survival rates
| would be low, and a lifetime of paralysis would likely be the
| penalty for the first decade or so of patients. But in time,
| we'd get better. Eventually to the point where it was no
| longer an emergency procedure, but a preventative maintenance
| measure.
|
| The ancillary tech that would spring up from this would be in
| the BCI domain and we'd start getting good at modeling brain
| states. A whole industry of related organismal-level biotech
| advances would arise, propelling us forward like a new space
| age (or AI wave, to reference a current trend of advances).
|
| There are crazy other things you could do - race and gender
| changes, better than natural genes and performance (VO2 max
| etc) enhancements, transgenic stuff, etc. Why limit ourselves
| to our previous limitations?
|
| In 200 years we could conceivably move human thoughts onto
| silicon and stop dying. Too late for us with present day
| "life extension" / "health span" prognosis, so nobody is
| trying.
|
| But it's "icky" and you'd get an even worse reaction than
| artists take to AI art or certain greens take to nuclear. The
| "people should die" folks raise their pitchforks, as do the
| incredibly religious. It's a very tough pill to swallow.
|
| It angers me, because it's pretty low hanging fruit. You
| could grow bodies as vegetables without brains. Cut them off
| in development genetically and surgically. Innervate and
| artificially grow the bodies in advanced farms that keep
| their muscles moving, their hormones and limbic systems
| pumping, etc.
|
| If I make a billion dollars I'll put everything into it. I
| want to live 150 years, and I want everyone else to as well.
| It's way more important to me than buying stuff or collecting
| "experiences".
|
| As it stands, there's little point to anything we do (despite
| the fact none of us behave this way). Our experiences and
| enjoyment are short-lived dopamine hits to decaying neural
| networks, which on the geologic time scale, are pathetic
| little flashes that will never be noticed or remembered. When
| our brain cells bleb and desiccate, they won't remember all
| the good times we had or money we spent.
|
| My perspective is we're all already dead. We may as well be
| holograms of our machine descendants playing out historical
| recreations.
|
| Anyway, we could solve this if we put ourselves to it. I've
| yet to meet anyone else that's so gung-ho about it. I just
| think we're too early. And to this decaying neural network,
| it's kind of a horror to watch how others deal with the fact.
| voldacar wrote:
| I mostly agree with this. But the real problem is a meta-
| problem. Which is that society will never allow this unless
| everybody becomes some kind of moral nihilist ubermensch
| overnight. Any kind of (recognizable) deontology would have
| to be left behind completely. And the socially enforced
| "ick" reflex (which is MASSIVELY strong in most of the
| population) is something that can really be overcome only
| by people who are far right-tail in terms of intelligence
| or creativity or imagination. Read your comment to the
| average person on the street and see how they reflexively
| react. People on this site routinely overestimate the
| quality of the average human (in literally every possible
| way) because they only work and interact with above average
| people. I just don't see how we get from here to there, at
| least not without some massive alteration of humans, which
| would only really possible with true BCI or some kind of
| extreme eugenics effort. But in a world where either of
| those were possible, head transplanation would be a breeze.
| brookst wrote:
| Paris Catacombs are also amazing for this. First few skeletons
| are yikes. Next 50 are unsettling. Next 500 are sobering. Next
| 5,000 start to be kind of interesting, starting to notice
| variations in bone and joint shapes. Next 50,000 start to
| resemble the other people walking with you, just more naked.
| It's a good experience.
| whatshisface wrote:
| I don't know about you but seeing a big pile of skeletons in a
| basement mainly serves to confirm the ideas about death that I
| already had.
|
| It's also kind of misleading because they're not complaining
| but dying is actually pretty awful unless you're really, really
| lucky.
| brookst wrote:
| Wait, is it lucky if you're aware of your last moments or
| lucky if you're not?
| whatshisface wrote:
| It depends on the moments, really.
| clhodapp wrote:
| Personally, I find a lot of truth in what you say but I
| vehemently disagree with the premise that we should accept
| death as the price of life.
|
| Of course, we need to be realistic and acknowledge that
| everyone living will all almost certainly die one day but that
| doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for a future without
| death.
|
| I think that CGP Grey's video, Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant, does
| a wonderful job arguing this viewpoint.
| brookst wrote:
| I admire striving to not die.
|
| Statistically, I fully expect to die. Never dying would be a
| fantastic surprise.
|
| I think acceptance is a lot healthier and more likely to
| produce happiness in life than thinking one may be an
| exception.
| kiba wrote:
| Why not both?
| Mystery-Machine wrote:
| There's a difference between "thinking one may be an
| exception" and realizing that, no matter how small, there
| is a chance that one day we'll invent the technology that
| will make us immortal (to some extent).
|
| If we had the same stance for all the other things that
| never happened before and were considered impossible, we
| would have never went to space and achieved many other
| great firsts.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| All things have an extent, the urge to forget this is
| regressive imho.Books/TV shows that never ended seemed highly
| desirable when I was young, but infinite potential arguably
| means nothing matters.
| belval wrote:
| The Paris catacombs, while lacking the Catholic aspect really
| resonated with me. There is something so incredibly humbling in
| looking at literally million of skulls and realizing that we are
| ultimately as insignificant as they were.
| xwdv wrote:
| Not being able to comprehend their significance is not the same
| as them being insignificant.
| junon wrote:
| ... missing the point entirely.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| They should upscale these to 8K using AI.
| budzes wrote:
| Similar church in Czech Republic:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedlec_Ossuary
|
| The Sedlec Ossuary is a Roman Catholic chapel, located beneath
| the Cemetery Church of All Saints, part of the former Sedlec
| Abbey in Sedlec, a suburb of Kutna Hora in the Czech Republic.
|
| The ossuary is estimated to contain the skeletons of between
| 40,000 and 70,000 people, whose bones have, in many cases, been
| artistically arranged to form decorations and furnishings for the
| chapel.
| tobyjsullivan wrote:
| The article presents so much mystique around the origin of the
| artful arrangement.
|
| All I could think while reading is this is what happens when the
| head friar tells the new kid, "the crypt has become a complete
| mess, can you head down there and make it nice?" And then doesn't
| check in on his progress.
| Hikikomori wrote:
| Visited it by accident the first day in Rome, just happened to
| walk by. They have a museum before the crypt where each room had
| some theme and used different bones. Not particularly religious
| but it was interesting to see. Seemed like someone spent time in
| their crypt and had too much time and bones on their hands.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| I went to a Catholic school growing up, my parents weren't
| religious and I largely had no relationship to the faith but one
| thing that always fascinated me growing up was the old, imposing
| Gothic church that the students celebrated mass in, which as a
| kid always was a little bit scary to me.
|
| This church with death on display reminds me of that and to me
| what's always been striking is that there's almost a pagan or
| occult undercurrent in Catholicism. I think Midnight Mass, a
| great show btw, captures this as well. Trying to show how much of
| an actual blood ritual the Catholic Eucharist is. (in Catholicism
| bread and wine are taken to be transformed into literally(!), not
| figuratively the blood and body of Christ).
|
| Also wherever Catholicism mixes with folk traditions this is
| visible, with figures like Santa Muerte in Latin America. And
| while the Catholic church usually distances itself from this,
| it's always interesting how easily these traditions blend.
| hprotagonist wrote:
| 46. Keep death daily before your eyes.
|
| Rule of St Benedict
|
| https://gutenberg.org/cache/epub/50040/pg50040-images.html#c...
| 6502nerdface wrote:
| Personally, I hang a "memento mori" near every mirror in the
| house, to remind him who would regard himself that what he sees
| will one day inevitably return to the earth.
| bruce343434 wrote:
| That seems rather anxiety inducing. "Remember that you will
| die" is the saying, not "be obsessed with it".
| 6502nerdface wrote:
| Mostly they're just cool as works of art :). Still lifes
| with skulls and such.
| darkarmani wrote:
| Stoic praemeditatio malorum.
| capableweb wrote:
| This has helped me a lot to (what it feels like) take care more
| about what I spend my time on.
|
| As extra help, I have a printed page from
| https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/life-weeks.html of the final
| "Your Life in Weeks" image which I fill out every week. Puts
| yet another perspective on the very same thing.
|
| Some people when they see it feel like it's macabre or
| stressful but it has the opposite effect on me, especially when
| dealing with problems that in hindsight are trivial.
| TheFreim wrote:
| 5:00AM every morning I receive a reminder on my phone: "You
| will die someday."
| brookst wrote:
| I get text messages like that. Still don't know who it is.
| brainlessdev wrote:
| From Marcus Aurelius's _Meditations_ : Mortal
| man, you have lived as a citizen in this great city. What matter
| if that life is five or fifty ears? The laws of the city apply
| equally to all. So what is there to fear in your dismissal from
| the city? This is no tyrant or corrupt judge who dismisses you,
| but the very same nature that brought you in. It is like the
| officer who engaged a comic actor dismissing him from the stage.
| 'But I have not played my five acts, only three.' 'True, but in
| life three acts can be the whole play.' Completion is determined
| by that being who caused first your composition and now your
| dissolution. You have no part in either causation. Go then in
| peace: the god who lets you go is at peace with you.
|
| I find the idea frightening but at the same time soothing: life
| is something one returns, like anything else one could have, one
| day it will no longer be there; it needs to be returned.
| [deleted]
| steveBK123 wrote:
| It's interesting how in less modern times, death was more ever
| present and yet they still went out of their way to remind people
| about it.
|
| The modern world by contrast, one can go well into their 30s
| without personally being touched by it in your family/friends
| circle. We could use the reminder of it now more than then, and
| yet we sanitize & Disney-fy everything instead.
| sbaiddn wrote:
| Im nearing 40 and the only person "close" to me that has died
| is my grandpa, but I barely knew him since I grew up half way
| around the world.
|
| As an (immature) adult I saw him twice. Twice as a teen. Once
| as a child post-migration.
|
| I loved him so dearly as a young child yet, when he passed, it
| barely registered.
| monero-xmr wrote:
| Catholics believe in "incorruptibility" as a sign of potential
| sainthood. This is where the body does not decompose. You can see
| the bodies on display
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorruptibility
|
| Catholics also believe in demonic possession, hell, and exorcism.
| Not the first things a priest will tell you though :)
| sorokod wrote:
| They also believe in a three person god. Not sure in which
| lesson this comes up.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church#Nature_of_God
| Grazester wrote:
| God the son, God the father and God the holy spirit(The
| trinity). Also mention in pray and referenced in the bible I
| believe.
| krapp wrote:
| No, the Trinity is never referenced in the Bible - God,
| Jesus and the Holy Spirit are always treated as separate
| entities. The doctrine was made up by the Church to avoid
| the obvious polytheistic implications in the
| straightforward interpretation of canon.
| jlkuester7 wrote:
| The Catholic Church has never claimed the Bible is the
| sole source of religious revelation. Sacred Tradition is
| regarded and an additional (and not contradictory) source
| of revelation of the mysteries of God.
|
| I am by no means well versed in the deep trinitarian
| studies and reflections from the past 2000 years, but I
| am inclined to feel that verses like John 10:30 defy a
| simple explanation....
| aeneasmackenzie wrote:
| Jesus and the Father are equated in the very first verse
| of John.
| dc-programmer wrote:
| The conception of the trinity as co-equal persons of the
| same substance is a later development in Christianity.
| The earliest Christian writings (Paul's letters) never
| mention the trinity; you could even argue Paul was a sort
| of binitarian
| krapp wrote:
| "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with
| God, and the Word was God" isn't exactly straightforward.
| olddustytrail wrote:
| It's more straightforward if you read a few more
| sentences.
| krapp wrote:
| Not really. It could just as easily be interpreted as
| referring to two separate beings of equal power and
| status than one being in two persons.
|
| John 10:30 mentioned above seems more clear, but just
| prior to that you have "My Father who has given them to
| Me", which makes no sense if they are literally the same
| being. Neither does Christ on the cross asking why God
| has forsaken him.
|
| The problem is the Biblical canon manifested out of what
| were countless differing philosophies and schools of
| thought in early Christianity, and John seems to be one
| of the more mystical books to make it in. But
| Christianity couldn't even agree on the nature of Jesus'
| divinity at first, and went to war against itself for
| centuries over details like this.
| geocrasher wrote:
| Philippians 2:5,6 clears it up nicely.
| nsxwolf wrote:
| In any sort of Catholic education, this is learned
| immediately.
| bombcar wrote:
| I mean this stuff is literally laid out in the Creed which
| is recited at every mass and various times besides. There
| are various other Creeds used that make things even more
| explicit such as the Athanasian Creed. And nothing really
| is unique to the Catholics, the Orthodox are onboard for
| this stuff.
|
| I believe in one God,
|
| the Father almighty,
|
| maker of heaven and earth,
|
| of all things visible and invisible.
|
| I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
|
| the Only Begotten Son of God,
|
| born of the Father before all ages.
|
| God from God, Light from Light,
|
| true God from true God,
|
| begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
|
| through him all things were made.
|
| For us men and for our salvation
|
| he came down from heaven,
|
| and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
|
| and became man.
|
| For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
|
| he suffered death and was buried,
|
| and rose again on the third day
|
| in accordance with the Scriptures.
|
| He ascended into heaven
|
| and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
|
| He will come again in glory
|
| to judge the living and the dead
|
| and his kingdom will have no end.
|
| I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
|
| who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
|
| who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
|
| who has spoken through the prophets.
|
| I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
|
| I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
|
| and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
|
| and the life of the world to come. Amen.
| nsxwolf wrote:
| Yeah, non-trinitarian Christianity is Mormons, Jehovas
| Witnesses, and it gets much more obscure from there.
| 988747 wrote:
| Neither Mormons nor Jehovas Witnesses are considered
| Christians.
| nsxwolf wrote:
| Probably because they're non-trinitarian.
| BizarreByte wrote:
| The trinity is a fundamental Christian belief, not just
| Catholic. If one doesn't believe it than most won't consider
| them Christian. This is a huge reason why Mormonism is it's
| own thing.
|
| I don't believe anymore as an adult, but this was taught
| right away when I was a kid going to the Catholic Church. I
| don't think you could find a catholic who doesn't know what
| the trinity is.
| sorokod wrote:
| Not religious in any way - from this perspective the
| trinity (as nailed down by the council of Nicaea) sounds
| like a triumvirate of gods + mental acrobatics.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea#Agend
| a
| duped wrote:
| It's an interesting historical and political question
| though, since it was the core question of the First Council
| of Nicea which Constantine used to establish an orthodoxy
| for his empire. That single church lasted for almost 700
| years before splitting in two.
| timeon wrote:
| There was already split when Paul joined the church. Just
| those original Jewish branches (like Ebionites) did not
| survived to this age.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > That single church lasted for almost 700 years before
| splitting in two.
|
| It...didn't, though; there was a schism (Macedonian)
| within 7 years, not 700, of Nicaea, and there were even
| schisms that created separate long-lasting Churches on
| the side rejecting the view of the part of the Church
| that survived in union until the Catholic/Orthodox split
| much sooner than 700 years (e.g., the Nestorian schism in
| 431 and the Church of the East which survives to this
| day; the Chalcedonian/Monophysite schism in 451, from
| which the Oriental Orthodox churches still survive, etc.)
| dc-programmer wrote:
| The trinity is the Orthodox belief. The history of
| Christianity is full of "heretical" beliefs about the
| Godhead. Also there is solid evidence that first century
| Christians did not hold a trinitarian position
| [deleted]
| rsynnott wrote:
| Most people who identify as Catholic in developed countries
| today don't believe in any of those (demonic possession and
| exorcism would be particularly fringe, but in surveys in many
| countries the majority identifying as Catholic don't believe in
| hell or sometimes transubstantiation either)
| [deleted]
| User23 wrote:
| There certainly are plenty of cultural Catholics who don't
| believe much of if anything that the Church teaches. The
| example of possession is particularly interesting though,
| because it's so overt. Unlike transubstantiation, where we
| have to take it on faith, there are documented cases of
| demonic possession that really defy natural explanation.
| Things like knowing secrets, speaking unknown languages,
| levitation, feats of strength, and so on have all been
| observed. Here[1] is one example and you can find many more,
| including from non-Catholic or even non-Christian specialists
| who have been retained to rule out mental illness and other
| natural explanations. Unfortunately it is a rather
| sensationalized subject, so there is a lot of garbage out
| there too.
|
| [1] https://www.ncregister.com/blog/christ-s-power-shines-
| even-i...
| monero-xmr wrote:
| I wasn't critiquing Catholics. I am Catholic and believe in
| demonic possession and ghosts. I was trying to make HN
| aware of this Catholic trivia.
| antognini wrote:
| True, but Catholicism isn't a democracy. Catholic beliefs
| aren't determined by what self-professed Catholics say they
| believe in, but what the Catholic Church itself professes.
| olddustytrail wrote:
| Self-professed Catholics are the Catholic church. That's
| what's meant by the phrase, not the bishops.
| rsynnott wrote:
| I mean, that's one way to look at it. But in practice
| Catholics aren't, and never have been, a monolith, belief-
| wise, unless you define it so narrowly that the only
| Catholics are, well, maybe some of the cardinals.
|
| (Or not even those, if you take the view of some post-
| Vatican-II breakaway sects who consider the Pope to be
| illegitimate)
| antognini wrote:
| That's true, there is a great deal of theological
| diversity within the Catholic Church, and to an extent
| that diversity is actually encouraged. But the Church
| also sets bounds on what beliefs can acceptably be called
| "Catholic" and those bounds are Catholic dogma. (And over
| the centuries theologians have actually constructed quite
| a baroque hierarchy of degrees of theological certainty
| attached to various beliefs. [1])
|
| The actual dogmas are fairly narrow. They include things
| like the doctrine of transubstantiation, Jesus being both
| God and man, Mary being conceived without original sin.
| But a lot of other things aren't dogmatic. For example,
| it's perfectly acceptable to argue that Roman Catholic
| priests should be permitted to be married or that Limbo
| doesn't exist.
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theological_notes
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Catholics also believe in demonic possession, hell, and
| exorcism. Not the first things a priest will tell you though :)
|
| Because the first thing anyone will tell you is almost always a
| greeting, their name, or "excuse me."
| gpderetta wrote:
| There is also the classic "what are you doing in my home!"
| bombcar wrote:
| I mean "The hell you devil doing in my home!" would satisfy
| both.
| Grazester wrote:
| Why wouldn't they tell you they believe in hell? It is
| mentioned in pray it was used to scare me into not misbehaving
| as a child by my teachers who were priests and nuns. This is
| not a secret nor did they try to hide it.
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| > by my teachers who were priests and nuns
|
| The Catholic Church has always believed in Hell. Jesus
| himself made reference to Gehenna (which was literally a
| valley of death back when he was alive, the _Valley of
| Hinnom_ , where the Bible also documents child sacrifice to
| have occurred), as well as symbolically with the parable of
| the wedding feast. For this reason, many Catholic saints were
| themselves quite afraid of it and worked to avoid it.
|
| Common misunderstanding though comes from "how could a good
| God sentence anyone to hell?" Well, to put it one way, he
| doesn't. Imagine if your teenage son violently doesn't want
| to attend your Christmas gathering. Would it be loving of you
| to force him to attend? Or, more graphically, imagine your
| son is a drug user who has lost home, family, girlfriend, and
| yet obstinately resists rehab - and you'd love for him to
| come, but he'd have to lay off the drugs, and he refuses any
| effort. Thus, the Catholic understanding is that the souls in
| Hell are obstinate in their sin and obstinately do not want
| to be in Heaven, for eternity because they will never change
| their minds. "The doors of hell are locked on the inside."
| They will, within Catholic thought, _know_ they are in the
| wrong, but they would sin immediately again if they were
| permitted another second on Earth. This obstinacy in sin is
| mainly caused by refusal to repent for grave sins that have
| been committed.
|
| This also explains, in a way, the reason why the Catholic
| Church _in particular_ has very little hope in salvation for
| those who are atheist or similar.
| whatshisface wrote:
| > _the Catholic understanding is that the souls in Hell are
| obstinate in their sin and obstinately do not want to be in
| Heaven_
|
| It sure is easy to answer questions when you can just make
| things up... "Oh, they're just expressing their
| preferences."
| monero-xmr wrote:
| The demonic possession and exorcism parts not hell itself
| krapp wrote:
| Everyone knows Catholics believe in that stuff, it's why
| they show up so often in horror movies.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Catholics also believe in demonic possession, hell, and
| exorcism. Not the first things a priest will tell you though.
|
| It pretty literally is one of the first things a priest (or a
| layperson acting on their behalf) will tell you, in that it is
| a routine part of preparation for the entry into the Church,
| and, in fact, a (minor) exorcism is performed as part of
| baptism.
| antognini wrote:
| Moreover every Catholic diocese must have a trained exorcist.
| Ekaros wrote:
| Would that make Lenin a saint? I mean his body has been around
| wearing away clothes for good while.
| jayknight wrote:
| They have put a lot of effort into keeping him looking
| incorrupt (he's mostly wax now) to try to elevate him to the
| status of an atheist/communist "saint", basically mocking the
| traditional Orthodox views on incorrupt relics of saints.
| potatototoo99 wrote:
| Another church decorated with skeletons:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capela_dos_Ossos
| belter wrote:
| Been there great place. It's also my desktop wallpaper...never
| again got interrupted by colleagues and junior developers
| during my coding sessions.
| fishtacos wrote:
| I find it uncomfortable. Not because it's a reminder of our own
| mortality, which is clearly the case and the reason why it was
| created - to help us deal with it subconsciously.
|
| I find it uncomfortable because the point is to not just embrace
| death, but look forward to a better life afterwards. A death cult
| exposition.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > I find it uncomfortable because the point is to not just
| embrace death, but look forward to a better life afterwards. A
| death cult exposition.
|
| Does a child looking forward to adulthood make you
| uncomfortable, too?
| fishtacos wrote:
| >>Does a child looking forward to adulthood make you
| uncomfortable, too?
|
| Adulthood is a known and documented expectation of childhood.
|
| Life after death is not. Not sure what analogy you think
| you're making here.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Adulthood is a known and documented expectation of
| childhood.
|
| > Life after death is not. Not sure what analogy you think
| you're making here.
|
| Not from the perspective of the people who made this
| church.
|
| Sci-fi fantasies aside, physical death is a transition
| everyone's going to make. What's so discomforting about
| embracing that? It's not like they were committing suicide
| to get to the afterlife faster.
|
| > To add to your unmentioned editing, since you rewrote it
| completely:
|
| No, I just made the transition a little more specific, less
| than a minute after I posted. In any case, I changed it
| back.
| fishtacos wrote:
| >> Not from the perspective of the people who made this
| church.
|
| Clearly. That is the position I'm opposing. No evidence =
| just that.
|
| >>What's so discomforting about embracing that?
|
| Embracing death is discomforting for most people,
| including myself and everyone I know. You might be an
| outlier, but it is plenty clear that religion is created
| as a method of assuaging that fear via fantastical
| notions.
|
| >>It's not like they were committing suicide to bring it
| on faster.
|
| It is detrimental in human civilization development. If
| you haven't figured this out yet, you might live in a
| cave near Al Qaeda.
| fishtacos wrote:
| To add to your unmentioned editing, since you rewrote it
| completely:
|
| >>Does a student looking forward to graduation and their life
| afterward make you uncomfortable, too?
|
| Same answer as below.
| pfortuny wrote:
| No: Cristianism, in that sense, only tells you that _this
| life is not all_. Not simply that "there is a better one".
|
| As a matter of fact, redeeming the time means precisely
| making the most of it.
| sbaiddn wrote:
| That's because you (presumably not a Catholic or, like most, a
| poorly catechized one) are projecting your values and view
| points onto a faith you don't understand.
|
| Classic cultural colonialism if you ask me.
|
| There's literally two millennia (well 5 if you include the Old
| Testament and commentary) literature on the Church's position
| on matter, the body, corpses, life, death, afterlife, etc.
| necessary to understand this.
|
| Have you read a significant amount (any!) of this to reach your
| conclusion?
| fishtacos wrote:
| >>That's because you (presumably not a Catholic or, like
| most, a poorly catechized one) are projecting your values and
| view points onto a faith you don't understand.
|
| I'm atheist. Was born one, will die one, so you are correct.
|
| >>Classic cultural colonialism if you ask me.
|
| What makes you draw that conclusion? I'm an immigrant, have
| been exposed to everything from Islam to Catholicism to
| Southern Baptist, Hinduism, Buddhism, various other sects.
| I'd rather look inward, if I were, you, as colonialism in the
| name of Catholicism is why so many native cultures and
| religions have been erased from history and existence.
|
| >>There's literally two millennia (well 5 if you include the
| Old Testament and commentary) literature on the Church's
| position on matter, the body, corpses, life, death,
| afterlife, etc. necessary to understand this.
|
| And it remains a death cult at its core, despite sparkling it
| up with positions of corpses...
|
| >>Have you read a significant amount (any!) of this to reach
| your conclusion?
|
| I've read enough to know it's all BS. My close friend and
| cousin, someone who is a brother to me, spent years at the
| Vatican's liturgical schools. A+++ student. They wanted to
| make him a priest and he politely declined. He is an atheist
| thanks to that education.
|
| Thanks but no thanks.
| sbaiddn wrote:
| "I'm atheist. Was born one, will die one, so you are
| correct"
|
| Cool. You do you!
|
| "What makes you draw that conclusion?"
|
| You're foreign (both by incident of birth, or effort of
| study) of to the matter at hand but bless us with your
| opinion.
|
| "I'm an immigrant, have been exposed to everything from
| Islam to Catholicism to Southern Baptist, Hinduism,
| Buddhism, various other sects
|
| Good for you? So's half the people on this forum including
| yours truly.
|
| "I'd rather look inward, if I were, you, as colonialism in
| the name of Catholicism is why so many native cultures and
| religions have been erased from history and existence"
|
| Who says that Im Catholic? Or that I haven't? That being
| said, I see a lot more brown faces crossing Rio Grande into
| Mexico where Catholic Spain ruled than North of it.
|
| "And it remains a death cult at its core, despite sparkling
| it up with positions of corpses..."
|
| Sure.
|
| "I've read enough to know it's all BS."
|
| Pray, what?
|
| "My close friend and cousin, someone who [...] He is an
| atheist thanks to that education."
|
| And we've come full circle: good for him! He does he, you
| do you and the monks do the monks.
|
| As to myself I'll do me and pour myself some Chartreuse.
| I'll raise a glass and offer a blessing to you, my
| wonderful internet interlocutor!
| gigibec wrote:
| [dead]
| DubiousPusher wrote:
| I would encourage everyone to visit here or one of the similar
| places mentioned in this thread.
|
| I visited the Sedlec Ossuary a couple of years ago and it was the
| most visceral personal emotional reaction I have ever had to
| seeing something. There is something mind-shifting about seeing
| thousands of human skulls in a pile ala Terminator that I cannot
| describe with words. I can only relate it to visiting the Vietnam
| War Memorial and realizing how those overwhelming 60,000ish names
| are a mere footnote in the casualty record of human conflict.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedlec_Ossuary
| sitkack wrote:
| The Sedlec Ossuary is, or probably should be a great VR
| experience if you can't go in person (I have). The shock wears
| off and then you realize how human the place is. We whisk our
| dead out of sight, having the bones of your dead relatives be
| so visible, would be like having a time compass directing the
| path of the rest of your life.
| Aeolun wrote:
| It'd be kind of weird to bring someone there, count down the
| eleventh skull from the top right and then say "this here is
| grandpa".
| snshn wrote:
| "It's too late to be scared, the skeleton is already inside you"
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Memento mori (Latin for 'remember that you [have to] die') is an
| artistic reminder of the inevitability of death. Helps me
| tremendously!
| jxramos wrote:
| exactly, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_mori
| Ichthypresbyter wrote:
| One of the more famous examples of this is the strange object
| in the foreground of _The Ambassadors_ by Hans Holbein the
| Younger [0], which resolves as a skull when viewed from the
| correct angle.
|
| https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Hans_Hol...
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| Yep, great place, been there sooo many times, it used to be free,
| now there's a small fee to pay at the entrance which also
| includes a visit to the museum of the Capuchins. You'll find
| there the _San Francesco in Meditazione_ ( _San Francis in
| Prayer_ ) painting from Caravaggio. [1]
|
| The English Wikipedia reports it as a copy, but it is still
| debated if the original is the one in _Santa Maria della
| Concezione dei Cappuccini_ (Our Lady of the Conception of the
| Capuchins) or the other one in _Palazzo Barberini_.
|
| Fun fact: both paintings are in Piazza Barberini, a few hundred
| meters from each other.
|
| [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Francis_in_Prayer_(Carav...
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