[HN Gopher] Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global auto... ___________________________________________________________________ Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died Author : isomorph Score : 391 points Date : 2023-02-15 10:44 UTC (12 hours ago) (HTM) web link (mainichi.jp) (TXT) w3m dump (mainichi.jp) | mjul wrote: | The Toyota Production System was established during Shoichiro | Toyoda's leadership. It is the company's "operating system" if | you will, and has made an enormous impact, both in the auto | industry and in other fields such as IT. | | "Lean" manufacturing, a term from Womack & Jones, is based on | their research into this. | | If you want to dive in, here is my reading list for essential | books on how Toyota came to build high quality cars at scale, and | how it transfers to other disciplines. | | _W. Edwards Deming_ - the grand old man of the field, building | on a strict statistical discipline. His book "Out of the Crisis" | is a wonderful treatise on his thinking including his famous "14 | Points for Management". This is definitely a must read that will | change the way you think about management and quality. Deming | provided the inspiration for the quality movement that powered | post-war Japanese manufacturing. | | _Taiichi Ohno_ - one of the greatest industrial innovators of | the 20th century, the father of the Toyota Production System. | After spending his career relentlessly optimizing manufacturing | at Toyota he wrote the book "Toyota Production System: Beyond | Large-scale Production" that describes his work. | | _Womack & Jones_ - Their books are great and it is well worth to | read them all to see a lot of the principles and case studies for | lean thinking. Also, it is quite interesting to see that software | development is now rediscovering some of the things that | manufacturing learned much earlier - in the case of Toyota as | early as in the 1950s and 1960s. Begin your studies with "The | Machine That Changed the World", a five-year study of the global | auto industry from MIT and go on with the "Lean Thinking" and | "Lean Solutions". They give a fascinating perspective on | manufacturing and plenty of examples of the lean principles and | they applications. These are the books that brought lean to the | mainstream. | | _Mary and Tom Poppendieck_ - with a background in manufacturing | and software they were leading the effort to translate the | concepts of lean to software development. They have written two | great books, "Implementing Lean Software Development" and "Lean | Software Development - an Agile Toolkit". Both books are well | worth reading a present a both the principles and lot of cases in | a friendly, colloquial manner. Highly recommended! | | _Matthew May_ - I really like his approach to elegance and | simplicity. May has worked with Toyota and their corporate | university and his book "The Elegant Solution" offers insight | into their innovation process - the principles it is built on and | the practices that make it work. | | _Jeffrey Liker_ - his "The Toyota Way" is a very good | introduction to the application of lean methods at Toyota. This | is one of the best lean books I have read. Definitely a | favourite! | | This list covers up to around 10 years ago. Please comment with | recommendations for more recent books on the topic. | radiator wrote: | _Tetsuo Sakiya_ - Honda Motor the men, the management, the | machines | | Tangential: there are many books on the Toyota system, so that | they have stolen the show. I have always suspected that other | Japanese factories might have also had interesting production | systems but only found the above book about Honda. Honda | apparently invested more in R&D and always took greater risks | than Toyota. I believe some ideas from there can also be | applied to IT. | | Anyone know of others? | mjul wrote: | _The Honda Myth_ by Masaaki Sato is an excellent book about | Soichiro Honda and Takeo Fujisawa and the captivating history | of how they built Honda, from motorcycles to Formula 1 and | how they disrupted the US auto industry on the way with the | low-emission fuel-efficient CVCC engine (the later Tesla | story shares some of the same elements of new tech playing to | environmental regulation). | | It was driven by the quest to create the best engines and | fastest vehicles. | | Soichiro Honda had a great love for building and tuning his | engines, saying something like, "It will be a sad day if | engineers could go to lunch without needing to wash their | hands". | kqr wrote: | Great list. I would strongly suggest reading Ward's _Lean | Product and Process Developer_ , or if you have, adding it to | the list. It focuses entirely on product development rather | than manufacturing -- so easier to apply to software | development! | rr808 wrote: | Lots of people saying Toyota missed the boat on EVs. I'm not | convinced the technology, infrastructure or battery supply is | ready for true mass production of EVs. Toyota makes 10 million | cars a year, they'll be selling good EVs soon enough to put Tesla | to shame. | clouddrover wrote: | Volkswagen makes 10 million cars a year and they're pushing | hard for EVs now. | | The main difference between Volkswagen's and Toyota's situation | is that Toyota is still in a good position to meet fleet | emissions requirements globally because they've been selling | hybrids for so long. But Volkswagen needs to pump out EVs now | to meet their fleet emissions targets. | | Fleet emissions fines are simply dead money. You're much better | off putting that money into your EV development program. | | Toyota has to sell EVs at scale eventually because new car ICE | vehicle sales bans now and into the future mean that all car | manufacturers have to. | germinalphrase wrote: | " Toyota has to sell EVs at scale eventually because new car | ICE vehicle sales bans now and into the future..." | | The EU is pushing that 2035 date. Are other countries | following? | oblio wrote: | The EU is about 450 million people with above average | disposable income for global levels. | | I'm not sure if other countries are following, but they | will :-) | sethhochberg wrote: | Somewhat similar story in the US with California and New | York pursuing 2035 sale bans - other states don't | necessarily have to even follow, California has been the | benchmark for US vehicle emissions standards for decades. | The state has big car culture and a big population. | Automakers often build things to the California standard | and sell the CA-standard cars in the rest of the country. | Its just not cost effective for them to make minor | variations in the models. | clouddrover wrote: | Other countries are leading. The UK is 2030. Norway is | 2025. | sangnoir wrote: | > Volkswagen makes 10 million cars a year and they're pushing | hard for EVs now. | | That decision was made under duress[1]. Thanks, Dieselgate! | | 1. The money VW Group was fined for Dieselgate in the US was | directed to fund the "Electrify America" charging network. It | would have been braindead for VW to give competition a leg-up | by not electrify after paying for the infrastructure: the | punishment was _very_ well thought-out. | cowmix wrote: | I guess I understand why Toyota hasn't gone full-hog into EVs. | There's a lot of life left in their hybrid and ICE drivetrains. | | What I don't understand is why whatever BEVs they have tried so | far, have been pretty crappy. For instance, the bZ4X is a total | joke in almost all aspects -- features, range, etc. | dsfyu404ed wrote: | If Toyota misses the boat there's not much coming back from | that. Once things shake out and brands develop reputations for | certain classes of product it takes an act of god to change | them. | | In the 1970s the US was really good at making fairly luxurious | barges but then suddenly the consumers wanted smaller cars. The | US automakers already made compacts and small cars but they | were value-engineered to within an inch of their lives for | people who couldn't afford better. Japanese automakers | absolutely killed because they already made "nice cars for nice | people" in the form factors people wanted. The US had plenty of | nicer cars in production at the time but they weren't form | factors anybody wanted. So when you look at the average car | that actually got bought and put on the roads the Japanese cars | were nicer all around (and priced accordingly). The reputations | took off from there and the US automakers got left holding the | bag of low end customers and the Japanese carmakers got the | high end customers further cementing their place in the midsize | and compact car market. Minivans and then SUV becoming the "new | hotness" for those buyer demographics and some by all accounts | spectacular midsize car platforms of the 80s and 90s (Taurus, | Escort, W-body (e.g. Lumina), Neon) still didn't unseat the | Japanese car-makers dominance of the higher priced and higher | end portions of the midsize and compact car market. | | I would not bet against something similar happening to Toyota | (and a couple other brands) with the transition to EVs. The big | three look poised to capture the pickup and large SUV market. | The Koreans look pretty well positioned in the crossover and | hatchback segments. Tesla is king of high end sedans right now. | I think there's room for another player in the crossover market | and some room in the midsize SUV market (Honda Pilot, Ford | Explorer type stuff) and there's probably room in the sedan | market for a boring non-flashy EV (something Toyota already has | a reputation for in the ICE segment). Will Toyota develop an EV | or several that's a big enough winner to cement their place | beside the current players in those segments? If I knew the | answer to that question I'd be buying stocks. | b34r wrote: | There are so many nuanced things that go into making a great | EV: advanced software with OTA updates, highly efficient | electric motors, material science breakthroughs in battery tech | and other components. Toyota can get there in time but there's | so many things to do and they're facing increasingly rough | headwinds the longer they wait to properly electrify. | pornel wrote: | Their current offering is "meh" from the EV perspective. It | doesn't look like their experience with small-battery low- | voltage hybrids gave them skills and experience to execute a | good BEV. ICE reliability is a different game than batteries, | efficiency, and software game of BEVs. | | I think there's a high chance that Toyota will be sidelined by | EV-first automakers from Korea and China just like US | automakers were sidelined by Japanese automakers in the 20th | century. | jacquesm wrote: | Good thing Europe doesn't produce cars any more. | chasd00 wrote: | i cant even imagine how hard it would be for an ICE | manufacturer to pivot into EVs. Those decades of | engine/transmission refinement expertise? out the window. | Imagine trying to organize and pitch a new vehicle without | including the powertrain people and, instead, a team with | nothing on the road yet. | Merad wrote: | I think Toyota is in much better shape in this regard than | you might expect. Most/all of their hybrid vehicles use an | eCVT transmission to drive the front wheels that's | radically different from a traditional transmission. And | their AWD hybrid models provide the AWD via an electric | motor on the rear axle (no connection to the ICE engine) | that's essentially identical to the setup in electric cars. | pornel wrote: | Assumption that hybrids are essentially EVs glosses over | all the fine details that make a _good_ EV. All ICE | engines are "essentially identical" too, but there's a | world of difference between ICE manufacturers. VW Beetle | has an engine in the rear, but it doesn't make it a | Lambo. | | Plug-in hybrids all use AC charging or at best equally | slow DC charging. OTOH BEVs compete on maximizing the | charging curve, which is something that has never been a | consideration in PHEVs. This requires dealing with much | higher voltages and stress on the battery. | | Hybrids don't need active temperature management for | their batteries, because they never push the batteries | that hard, and there's always an ICE engine to generate | heat if needed. OTOH thermal management and battery | conditioning, and efficient A/C is an important complex | piece of BEVs. | | Hybrids don't need to maximize their efficiency, since | their electric range isn't as important, and even a just- | okay electric motor is going to improve efficiency of an | ICE engine. OTOH in BEVs every last bit of efficiency | matters, since that's a factor in range, weight, and | cost. Toyota's bz4x efficiency looks poor compared to | BEVs from VW and Hyundai, and they're all noticeably | worse than Tesla's. | | Batteries in hybrids are relatively small, so they can | get away with worse energy density. You can't put 10 PHEV | batteries together to make a good BEV. | | And legacy automakers still treat software as a nuisance | to outsource, instead of a critical component of an EV. I | don't mean self-driving publicity stunts, but basics like | route planning that includes appropriate charging stops. | Software from legacy automakers treats chargers like gas | stations, often without real-time speed and availability | data. They will send you to some random hotel charger | that takes 11 hours to charge, is customer-only and | already taken, instead of a rapid 20-minute charger that | is just a bit further away. | clouddrover wrote: | Volkswagen is the biggest EV maker in Europe: | | https://eu-evs.com/marketShare/ALL/Groups/Line/All-time- | by-Y... | | I'd say they've pivoted. | oblio wrote: | Nobody said it's easy, but if you don't live in the US, you | should be aware that there are already loads of EVs out on | the road and available, all from _" legacy"_ car | manufacturers. | | VW: https://www.arenaev.com/volkswagen-electric- | vehicles-2.php (add Audi, Skoda, Seat, etc to that) | | Mercedes: https://www.arenaev.com/mercedes-electric- | vehicles-6.php | | BMW, Kia, Hyunday, Volvo, Renault, BYD, Opel, Cupra, ... | jillesvangurp wrote: | The thing is that if Toyota wants to be a leader in this space, | they should not wait for this to happen but be making it | happen. The reality is that they have not been doing that. And | others have. | | If they wanted to be a leader in this space, five years ago | would have been late to start putting in place the strategy, | infrastructure, supply chains, etc. you need to build EVs. They | did not do much five years ago other than insisting that they | did not need to. And really, ten years ago would have been | better, that's when Tesla started looking like a serious | company and making concrete plans for scaling their business. | | I don't see Toyota shipping EVs in volume any time soon. The | new CEO is likely to have been tasked to actually start making | this happen. But it's not going to happen overnight because | they haven't built any factories yet, they haven't secured any | battery supplies yet. They've built a few proof of concept / | compliance cars that they are struggling to build in meaningful | numbers and that they've had to withdraw from the market | because of construction issues repeatedly. When they do start | doing this, they'll have a little learning curve to master. | | So, the new CEO has his work cut out. | | As for being convinced about scale, the market volume is now | millions of cars per year. Soon tens of millions. Tesla is a | market leader with a target of getting to 2 million cars per | year this year (up from 1 this year). And their cars are now | the #1 best selling cars in many markets. They have really | juicy margins on their products. It's a proven market with high | margins and high volume at this point. Tesla is not alone in | this market and there are quite a few other manufacturers also | starting to move some serious volume. Any of those have what | Toyota does not have: volume, scale, and proven products being | sold as fast as they can be produced. | | The technology is there. The infrastructure is there and | rapidly expanding to keep up with supply and demand. New | battery factories are being announced and opened all the time. | We'll soon be measuring the collective output of these | factories in twh per year rather than the hundreds of gwh per | year it is right now. | | Toyota if it wants in has a lot of catching up to do. | brobdingnagians wrote: | The future has a funny habit of being different than we | anticipate. I think this might be one of those cases, but | time will tell. | starkd wrote: | Going all in on EV's is also a very big gamble. Sure, there | is probably a profitable segment in the market, but with so | many other car companies going all-in, Toyota could be in a | good position by having a wider line-up of products. There is | something very strange about the herd mentality around EV's. | As if we are going to fix the environment if only everybody | gets an EV for ALL use cases. | polalavik wrote: | Why is it a gamble when almost 100% percentage of the | largest auto makers have gone all in? They will do all they | can to make sure EVs do not fail, infrastructure | availability does not fail, laws are made, etc because it | is now in their best financial interest to do so, together. | starkd wrote: | Because some people do not WANT it and prefer ICE or | hybrid vehicles. It's a very big world with alot of | different use cases. A smart business strategy | diversifies. | rr808 wrote: | Toyota has a lot of PHEVs now. The RAV4 Prime is awesome if | you can get one. It isn't very difficult to change a PHEV to | an BEV. | mgfist wrote: | Millions of EVs are now sold per year. It's still a small | percent of total car but increasing rapidly and while all other | manufacturers are spending time and money building up expertise | and infrastructure Toyota is ignoring it. | | Switching from ICE to EV is not easy and takes years to do so | and the later Toyota delays it the more painful it will be. | starkd wrote: | There is no reason it all EV. There are legitimate use cases | for both EV and ICE. | matt_s wrote: | I think Toyota's issues will just be supply chain around | battery packs. They have already been designing and engineering | hybrids for a decade or more. I don't think its a revolutionary | change for them to remove combustion engine and accessories and | go with all electric motors plus larger battery packs. If | anything it might simplify internal designs. I'd rather they | flow this through their internal typical processes and come out | with a product that meets their historical standards rather | than any "catch up" to the market. | | Once they have a Corolla like EV platform I bet it will outsell | most competitors and likely won't have gimmicky features. | jillesvangurp wrote: | Only if they can produce it cost effectively and in large | volume. This is going to be a learning curve that will take | them years. | | Hybrid cars are not the same as an EV. Toyota needs to start | worrying about their existing revenue not drying up before | they can master the same learning curve that other | manufacturers have been trying to master (with varying | degrees of success). | | Corolla like EV platforms already exist. Several Chinese | manufacturers sell those in their domestic market for prices | as low as a few thousand per car. And several of those | manufacturers are ramping up their exports to the US, Europe, | and Australia. | hindsightbias wrote: | Some analysts like Munro think legacies will take much longer | to catch up to Tesla because they're evolving ICE | designs/standards into their EVs and crippling them. Toyota | is so huge they could have afforded a clean-sheet platform | but waited too long so they'll fall into the same cycle. | somerandomqaguy wrote: | They do have a clean sheet design: e-TNGA. The Toyota bZ4X | and the Subaru Soltarra are both based on the design, along | with the bZ3 and the upcoming Lexus RZ. | hindsightbias wrote: | e-TNGA just appears to be an e- added to commonize with | the TNGA gasoline architecture. | | > Now Terashi's group is considering whether to drop the | three-year-old e-TNGA architecture, created by modifying | a gasoline car platform, in favor of a dedicated EV | platform, people with knowledge of that work have said. | | https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14790566 | fomine3 wrote: | It was my thought before bZ4X was released. After I read | reviews about it, I'm not sure. | TheLoafOfBread wrote: | As an owner of BEV (Skoda Enyaq) I agree with this sentiment. | My experience is that BEVs are expensive to purchase and | expensive to use. This is a niche car for rich people, not | Toyota Prius for common folk. I am currently getting rid of the | car and going back to ICE because my whole experience was a | painful joke. | | Toyota is getting ridiculed today, but they will be last one | who will be laughing, when prices for BEV and for batteries are | currently going up [0] | | [0] https://about.bnef.com/blog/increase-in-battery-prices- | could... | tpm wrote: | However the whole EU market can't return to ICEs because of | fleet emission limits, which are now 95g CO2/km and from 2025 | will be 15% lower, with other changes too. So my guess is, | people who can afford it (including charging infra) will have | EVs which will get better and more expensive and the rest | will not buy new cars. Maybe the market will shift to smaller | forms of mobility, we'll see. | toomuchtodo wrote: | The EU also, just within the last few days, banned new | combustion vehicle sales starting 2035. Burn the ships, | there will be no going back. | radiator wrote: | The EU had also banned and stopped operating coal | generators, but now they are back in operation. | toomuchtodo wrote: | https://www.iea.org/news/defying-expectations- | co2-emissions-... | | > The European Union's CO2 emissions are on course to | decline this year despite an increase in coal emissions. | The rise in European coal use is expected to be | temporary, with a strong pipeline of new renewable | projects forecast to add around 50 gigawatts of capacity | in 2023. These additions would generate more electricity | than the expected increase in coal-fired power generation | in the EU in 2022. | | https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/22/eus- | emis... | | > EU's emissions continue to fall despite return to coal | | My note: those coal plants are only increasing emissions | a few percentage points temporarily. Trajectory deviation | is ever so sleight. | TheLoafOfBread wrote: | I am coming from an Eastern Block. It was quite common | during communism to drive 20-30 years old cars. I think | that Eastern Europe will teach the western part how to | properly stagnate. | cmh89 wrote: | Cars should last more than 20 years. It's only recently | with planned obsolescence that the manufacturers have | gotten that number down. | haspok wrote: | It was not. Cars of that era didn't last, as a matter of | fact, they would last much less (and require far more | maintenance) than the cars of today. | | It is true that certain cars (Trabi comes to mind) could | be fixed roadside with a screwdriver and a hammer | usually, but >100k kilometers life was still rare - | people simply used their cars less and for shorter trips | those days. | chinathrow wrote: | > I am currently getting rid of the car and going back to ICE | because my whole experience was a painful joke. | | Can you elaborate? | TheLoafOfBread wrote: | Charging - Expensive and epic waste of time. Ionity leading | the way with 0.79EUR/kWh and still you are there for 40 | minutes and that's charger which can give me 150kW on start | of charging. Slower chargers, like stupid 50kW? Yeah, 2 | hours charging and they are wide and far. 20kW and weaker | chargers? You are playing lottery with compatibility buddy. | Yes it is there, yes it is on, but it does not like your | car. What's the point of CCS when there are different | incompatible software stacks in power delivery protocol? | | Car almost left me stranded in middle of France north of | Troyes, when it lead me to charge to Freshmile, which was | not compatible at all (car navigation was thinking | otherwise). I needed to charge at local Citroen dealership | to get 30km so I can get to Ionity in Troyes. | | Applications - Frustrating chapter for itself. New charger, | new app to be installed, account created in etc.... And new | problems to be solved, like their pay gate does not like | your Visa card. Huh? Or they will happily take your money | as a credit for charging and then you will figure out that | your car is not compatible with the charger. Money back? F | You! | | This could have been resolved by installing normal debit | card terminals, like are in stores. Just let me use my NFC | card / phone to pay what I have charged. Like on an | automated gas pump or when I am buying groceries. IT COULD | BE THAT SIMPLE. | | Driving - 2 hours going 130km/h on highway, then you need | to charge for cca 1 hour. So your average traveling speed | can't exceed 90km/h. That's an epic waste of time. | | Charging at home - I moved to another country, where I | can't charge at a driveway, because now I am living in the | apartment. So I am forced to charge 2km away on a 20kW | charger. Completely uncomfortable. | | And then seeing ban on ICE cars 12 years away and there is | 50% of people in EU living in apartments... yeah after my | experience, I am confident that this will get postponed. | Yaggo wrote: | I think your experience reflects more your choise of car | than EVs as technology. I have been driving Tesla happily | for 3.5 years. I regularly make long distance trips to | remote areas of Finland. No problems whatsoever. I pay 25 | snt/kWh for on-the-road charging with Elli membership, | about 12 snt at home. | clircle wrote: | "The user is the problem" | TheLoafOfBread wrote: | The moment when you will get off the supercharger network | with your tesla you are in the same crap as the rest of | the BEV owners. | | >on-the-road charging with Elli membership | | Why should I buy some stupid membership so I can pay | monthly fee + charging fee? I am not buying memberships | for taking gas either. | neon_electro wrote: | Net cost of energy, and a quick payback on your monthly | fee based on the savings vs. not paying the monthly fee. | | It's math. | clouddrover wrote: | > _when it lead me to charge to Freshmile_ | | Try A Better Routeplanner and configure it to plan routes | which prioritize your preferred charging providers: | | https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ | | You'll probably have an easier time of it with ABRP. | genocidicbunny wrote: | Not the parent you're replying to, but this comment is | very indicative of the problem being addressed. With an | ICE car, or even a hybrid, this is just not a | consideration. I don't need to plan my route around fuel | stops unless I'm going somewhere well away from | 'civilization'. | | The issues described are not insolvable, but dismissing | that they aren't currently solved is a little bit like | sticking your head in the sand. Suggesting a better route | planner just seems a little naive in that context. | clouddrover wrote: | What a bizarre thing to say. EV charging infrastructure | is still being built out. It's still the case that there | aren't EV chargers absolutely everywhere. | | Until there are many more EV chargers in more locations | such that you don't have to think about it, you use a | route planner to easily find the charger locations that | exist now. | Vvector wrote: | If you don't charge at home at least 90% of the time, the | EV loses most of the benefits. This will slowly change as | more EVs are sold and the charging infrastructure | improves. | nixass wrote: | > This will slowly change as more EVs are sold and the | charging infrastructure improves. | | Yeah.. no. Especially not in old big towns around Europe | where hundreds of thousands (even millions) of people | live without underground garage and there's literally no | place to install street side chargers on every corner. | mschuster91 wrote: | I'm living in the center of Munich, and they've built out | _a lot_ of curb-side chargers over the last years here. | | My personal hope is that advances in technology and grid | upgrades will eventually lead to every single lamp post | being a charge socket - a lot of the cars here belong to | residents and stay parked for days, so they can get away | with 3.6 kW charging just fine. | | In the end, however, the solution likely will be a | massive expansion of public transport, to a point where | almost no one but people with disabilities and | tradespeople will have their own cars. | [deleted] | Tade0 wrote: | I don't think that last thing will ever happen. Even in | Denmark, where cycling culture predates the car and there | used to be (or is - I'm not up to date), among other | disincentives, a hefty 180% registration tax people still | drive. | | All in all it's a useful tool if used in moderation. | LgWoodenBadger wrote: | But I thought the advantage of European towns was that | you didn't need a vehicle because you could walk to | everything you need? | nixass wrote: | I certainly do walk and cycle. That doesn't mean millions | of other don't and not everyone has workplace 5min away | by foot | matthewdgreen wrote: | How will we ever deliver 240VAC electricity to locations | that are directly adjacent to urban city streets. Seems | like an intractable problem. /s | [deleted] | Vvector wrote: | How much space do you think an EV charger takes? They are | the size of parking meters. They are built into lamp | posts. | nixass wrote: | And of course, electricity will come out of unicorn's | farts straight into your car. You literally need to | rework complete infrastructure to support EV cars. It | also motivates car culture even further, while we should | be working other way around | sokoloff wrote: | I've had a Nissan LEAF for 8.5 years. It was more expensive | to buy than the alternative I was considering (a used ICE), | but wasn't that much more expensive than a comparable new car | (ignoring incentives, which made the LEAF cheaper). Plenty of | people were spending ~$30K on new 4-door sedans in 2014. | | The running costs have been noticeably lower, driven by lower | (almost non-existent) maintenance costs. I'm about to buy two | tires for it, but other than that, my #1 maintenance expense | has been wiper blades and #2 expense washer fluid. | abakker wrote: | AND!!! compared to a similar sized car with an anemic | little 4 cylinder, the leaf is much better to drive, IMO. | (I have a 2020 model). Its not a mercedes, but the torque | off the line is so much better. | oblio wrote: | My guess is that this is highly dependent on where you | live, incentives/subsidies, local infrastructure, | electricity cost. | | Based on the car presented by OP, Skoda Enyaq, I'm guessing | they're in Europe where electricity is expensive. | | If the charging infrastructure isn't there, both at | home/work and fast chargers, BEVs most likely suck. | RodGodKiller wrote: | Gasoline and Diesel is also very pricey. If you charge at | home, electric cars are a (small) fraction of the price | to 'fill up', even in Europe; if not, likely not worth | it. | urduntupu wrote: | Toyota is building one of the most reliable and robust cars for | the masses. With attitude to build cars they will be | competitive for very long. | Snitch-Thursday wrote: | Agreed. I'm hopeful to see if their research into | synthetically created hydrogen fuel powered cars will get us | fuel created by green energy that we can run in hydrogen fuel | cell cars so we get the best of both cutting fuel emissions | to net zero and still have the flexibility of cross-country | drives and fast fuelings without having to have all our | (agriculture, industrial, etc.) vehicles be BEVs. | sbradford26 wrote: | So Hydrogen's perk would be quicker fueling but I don't | know how many people are going to be willing to pay the | fairly large additional cost for that convenience. | | Toyota Mirai: | | Tank Size: 5.6 kg of hydrogen | | Cost per kg of hydrogen: $13.11 | | Miles of range: 402 | | Cost per mile: $0.18 | | Ioniq 5: | | Battery Size: 77.4 kWh | | Range: 302 miles | | Miles per kWh: 3.5 | | Cost per kWh (Currently at my house): $0.27 per kWh | | Cost per mile: $0.08 | | Ford Maverick Hybrid (My current vehicle): | | Tank size: 13.6 Gallons | | Range: ~500 miles | | Average fuel economy: 38.5 mpg (my average currently) | | Cost per gallon: $3.40 (last price I saw on the way into | work) | | Cost per mile: $0.088 | | To get an equivalent cost per mile electricity would have | to $0.63 per kWh. Largely though that is currently with | hydrogen made from natural gas, versus green hydrogen which | will end up being intrinsically lin.18/ked to the cost of | electricity. From what I have seen it is somewhere around 3 | watts of electricity to get 1 W equivalent of hydrogen | which might be able to get a 2 to 1 ratio in the future. I | think certain sectors like aerospace will be okay with the | additional cost due to other advantages but regular | consumers it seems less likely. | | Cost for Hydrogen (I went with the lower number): | https://h2fcp.org/content/cost-refill | speedgoose wrote: | But Toyota isn't on top of the reliability rankings. | clouddrover wrote: | Toyota scored 1st and 2nd (Toyota and Lexus) in Consumers | reports 2022 reliability rankings: | https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner- | satisf... | | Lexus is number one in JD Power's 2023 rankings: | https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2023-us- | vehi... | [deleted] | qclibre22 wrote: | https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner- | satisf... : "Toyota, Lexus, and BMW are the top three most | reliable brands in our annual auto reliability brand | rankings" | | https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/consumer-reports- | reliabil... : 5 of top 10 are Toyota | [deleted] | switch007 wrote: | BMW, number 3?! They must build them different in the US, | surely. | _huayra_ wrote: | BMW = "Bring My Wallet" because those multi-thousand $$$ | shocks won't replace themselves for free after 4 years | | In the US it seems like they're built to barely make it | to the end of the leasing period and then implode. | They're really going to town with the "snap-in" fittings | for hoses in the engine because putting a metal hose | clamp on seems to increase COGS I guess. | dsfyu404ed wrote: | > They're really going to town with the "snap-in" | fittings for hoses in the engine because putting a metal | hose clamp on seems to increase COGS | | It's a labor saving thing. It's cheaper to design a fancy | snap-together plastic connector once, buy a few million | from overseas and than it is to have expensive first | world labor tighten hose clamps. | Eumenes wrote: | My new Tacoma is garbage, so many electric/computer | problems and under 20k miles. Has spent at least 4 weeks in | shop during first year of owning it. | kube-system wrote: | They are consistently at the top of reliability rankings. | https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner- | satisf... | [deleted] | speedgoose wrote: | My bad, I got a wrong source. | Aloha wrote: | I dont disagree - I think it's true of all of the large | manufacturers. | | They'll wait til the infrastructure develops a little bit | closer to maturity, then go all in. I think the transition to | electric cars will take about a generation, but I think overall | it'll be a good thing. | thenerdhead wrote: | Yep. Related to their principle of | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genchi_Genbutsu | lvl102 wrote: | Made in Japan Toyota are built different. There's something | special about manufacturing in Japan even down to a simple screw. | kevin_thibedeau wrote: | Made in America Camrys had (don't know if it's still true) | additional structural reinforcement for crash protection. | ethbr0 wrote: | My first manager was an ex-military crew-chief who was | stationed in Japan for a bit. | | In his words, "Whatever your job is, you take pride in it and | try to do it the best you can every day. If you're a gas | station attendant, you try to be the best gas station attendant | you can be." | | His description obviously stuck with me, as it's a nice summary | of a fundamental social bargain: everyone is important and | valued, and in exchange everyone will put in effort. | | I know everything isn't peaches and roses in Japanese culture | and society, but it makes a good point that excellence is | pervasive throughout an organization... or not at all. | Aperocky wrote: | > everyone is important and valued | | This statement is in seeming conflict well documented | hierarchical nature of Japanese society. | redwall_hp wrote: | That's a very western lens still. Hierarchy doesn't mean | you view those under you with contempt. The entire concept | of a team, on a micro scale, is that it has a leader who is | invested in the group's success and people who choose to | follow them because they think the leader respects them and | can provide the necessary coordination. | | Toxic individualism doesn't get things done, nor does it | encourage excellence. A hierarchy with mutual respect does, | though it must be fair and tempered with reasonable | mobility. | ethbr0 wrote: | I think this was the needle Kant was trying to thread | with the categorical imperative. | | Hierarchies are efficient and necessary, but ethically | dubious and subject to abuse. Ergo, a hierarchy where | everyone acts as though their position in it may be | randomly swapped at any time is the optimal | configuration. | ethbr0 wrote: | My understand is it's more complicated than that: while | inequitable, there's also a corresponding expectation of | duty to those below one. | | E.g. jobs for life | redwall_hp wrote: | That's why I make sure the VIN starts with J before I even | consider buying a car. And US owned companies are not even | worth considering. | jacquesm wrote: | You see the same with Yamaha. Japanese manufactured Yamaha's | are a notch above those produced elsewhere in quality. It | doesn't really show in the first couple of years but later on | the difference becomes more and more pronounced. The resale | value of a Japanese made Yamaha piano is much better than the | rest as well on account of this. | RigelKentaurus wrote: | RIP Mr. Toyoda. | | 2 random thoughts- | | 1. I owned a 1987 Corolla FX GTS coupe hatchback. Manual | transmission, brilliant red, with fantastic sporty design and | handling. Will never love a car like I did that one. | | 2. The JIT revolution that Toyota did so well in the 70s took a | long time to spread to the US. I worked on a GM project in | 2002-03 where I saw some crazy problems. The same part would be | called different names in different countries, so while the South | African plant was awash in some obscure part, the NJ factory had | a shortage and was buying it at super expensive rates from a | Japanese manufacturer. Their supply chain was an absolute shit | show. More than 400k SKUs with duplicates, and in many cases, | their cars were using different parts when they could have | standardized to a common part. They had a poster in one of their | meeting rooms saying "What would Toyota do?" | linsomniac wrote: | TIL: Toyota is spelled with a "t" rather than "d" because with a | "t" it has 8 strokes (in Japanese), which is a lucky number. | thenerdhead wrote: | Jeffrey Liker wrote a number of books on Toyota and his | involvement(The Toyota Way for example). | | What is so inspiring is seeing all the generations of Toyoda | build upon each other's work creating something so respected in | the industry and extends to many people's personal development | based on their principles alone. | | So many great things have come from their philosophy. What a | titan. | losvedir wrote: | I had a Toyota. It was a great car, and a real testament to the | engineering prowess Toyoda established. | | I see very clear, very interesting Innovator's Dilemma vibes, | though, in how widely they've missed the boat on EVs. I wouldn't | be surprised if we see Toyota lose its dominance in the coming | decade. It's sad, since the Prius was such a gamechanger. | | Maybe the passing of the torch here will let them start to catch | up. | ravagat wrote: | I'm still in the camp that they did not in fact miss the boat | on EVs. We, globally, are still very far off until EV adoption | and probably better off focusing on more important things | versus directly on EVs. Also Toyota was pioneer in EVs and I | think you've discounted that if you're really looked at it on a | bigger view of things | duffyjp wrote: | I agree. I have a 2013 Prius C that cost me $20K brand new | and gets 50mpg without even trying. My fuel expenses are | negligible. The new 2023 Prius gets even better milage and | has TWICE the horsepower (99 vs 196). | | Before the Prius I had a 2000 Lexus ES with 200HP and I got | about 17MPG. The advancement in ~20 years is incredible. Gas | savings alone covered more than half of my loan payments each | month. | dsfyu404ed wrote: | > The advancement in ~20 years is incredible. | | Pretty much every 90s compact was putting down similar | power numbers and got 80% the fuel economy... | molsongolden wrote: | Toyota is building EVs, they just don't believe all-in on EV is | what the market really wants right now. | | Subaru is also building their EVs on Toyota's EV platform. | manmal wrote: | My Ioniq is a great EV (though dated) and it's not even a pure | EV platform (also available as PHEV and ICE). Toyota only need | to throw the ICE out of a PHEV and increase battery size, and | they'll have an EV that's probably better build quality than | 90% of the market. | speby wrote: | It's possible, yes. Empires rise. Empires fall. Toyota will | adapt and 'missed the boat' implies that that's it; they're | done. They're absolutely not done. They were also miles ahead | of others when they introduced the Prius in the 90s. It's not | as if they haven't been engineering and mass-producing electric | powertrains for a long time. One strong reason they have not | missed the boat? No one yet producing an EV right now even | comes within arms-reach of Toyota's quality. People forget that | it is, in fact, Toyota's legendary quality+reliability+value | that makes it a brand people adore and come back to again, and | again, and again. When they make an EV (and they will, | eventually) that it is as good as the quality Toyota has built | its foundation on, they will absolutely CRUSH it. | NDizzle wrote: | Why would they lose their dominance? Are other manufacturers | quality standards coming close to Toyota? I think not... | | EVs don't work for me and my use case. I plan on keeping my | Land Cruiser forever. My kids are starting to drive now, with | one starting these past few months. In a Toyota, of course. As | will the next two. | unregistereddev wrote: | Toyota does not - and as far as I can tell, has never - led the | world in cutting-edge technology. They are a very conservative | company. This does not mean they have missed the boat. Even | their hybrids were not first-to-market. Toyota did not invent | the hybrid ICE/electric car; they simply implemented it better | than their competitors. | | Around 10 years ago, direct injection was the new thing for ICE | vehicles. It improved engine efficiency at the cost of extra | complexity. Toyota initially refused to add direct injection to | their engines. Automotive writers at the time believed Toyota | was falling behind with its outdated engine technology. They | believed other automakers would surpass Toyota's efficiency. | | What actually happened was a line of bad engines for VW, GM, | and Kia/Hyundai. They lost a considerable amount of money and | reputation due to engine failures caused by carbon buildup in | their direct injected engines. Meanwhile, Toyota eventually | launched their own implementation of direct injection. It was a | combination of both high-pressure direct injection and port | injection. The engine ran in different modes depending on the | load and operating temperature. This gave them the same | efficiency gains (though several years later than their | competition) while avoiding the common failure modes of other | companies' engines. | | Don't write off the sleeping giant. Maybe Toyota will lose its | dominance, or maybe they'll show up late to the party having | learned from everyone else's mistakes. | Paianni wrote: | The 1AZ-FSE was their first GDI engine, it was fitted to the | T220 Avensis back in the early noughts. | | Incidentally, the implementation you describe is the 'D-4S' | system, Toyota D-4 engines are purely direct injection with | the same carbon buildup issues as all the others...which | isn't the end of the world as the inlet valves and manifold | can be walnut blasted to remove the deposits but it's not the | easiest job to do. | namdnay wrote: | I think there's enough time for them to catch up, look how far | the Koreans have come in less than ten years | Dalewyn wrote: | I'm happy to bet it's not happening. Japan is far too busy | fighting amongst themselves and/or catering to themselves | first and foremost. | | South Korea, Taiwan, and China slayed Japan because they | played for keeps and pulled no punches. Japan simply does not | have the correct mindset to deliberately (re)conquer and | succeed. | | If this sounds brutal and/or flippant, allow me to say that | I'm saying this as a Japanese-American. I will happily use my | blood to shit talk my heritage, because honestly it's a | fucking shame and it's even more shameful that Japan can't | (read: won't) dig themselves out. | insane_dreamer wrote: | But don't Toyota and Honda still own the sedan market in | the US (Corolla/Prius/Camry/Civic/Accord)? I'm pretty sure | they're stronger than the Koreans in the compact/midsize | SUV market too (CRV, RAV4). Koreans might be stronger | elsewhere, not sure. | Dalewyn wrote: | Cars are one of the few industries Japan still holds the | crown of, but if past track records in other industries | are anything to go by I expect that a changing of the | crown is only a matter of time. | | Anyone who is familiar with computing history should know | of Japan's practically disasterous fall from grace in | nearly everything related to the computer industry. I've | also seen that exact cycle of falling play out countless | times in their other industries. | | I'm sick and tired of Japan continuing to lose and eat | dirt, I would be ecstatic to be proven wrong. But Japan | just doesn't have the mindset to (re)win customers in the | 21st century. | rvba wrote: | Someone from my family has a nice Toyota bought few years ago | but the car has constant problems with Android Auto. | | How can you make a car in 2018+ that does not work with the | most popular smartphone OS? | cma wrote: | For the batteries in each EV, you could make 7 plug-in hybrids. | That's 1 full electric and 6 gas cars, vs 7 plug-in hybrids. | | I think Toyota's approach would save more emissions so long as | we are battery constrained. | yanellena wrote: | Depends on how the energy is generated and transmitted | really. | chris222 wrote: | This was true several years ago but if you look now there are | hundreds of GWh of cell plants coming online over the next 3 | years. Toyota is very late here and won't be able to produce | dedicated BEVs at scale until 2026+. Competitors will already | be on their 2nd or 3rd generation BEV platforms by then. | NDizzle wrote: | 2nd or 3rd generation anything will still score lower than | even a launch year Toyota when it comes to quality. | chris222 wrote: | Actually they are having huge quality problems with their | first BEV. | | https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a40827514/toyota- | bz4x-whee... | scotty79 wrote: | A lot of people who own plug-in hybrids don't really ever | plug them in which makes them worse than gasoline cars or | non-plugin hybrids because of added weight. | duffyjp wrote: | My wife had a plug-in Ford C-Max Energi for a few years. We | always plugged it in but it only did ~20 miles on pure EV | so long term our mileage was around 40MPG. My Prius easily | beats that and I'm not paying an extra $20 a month on my | electric bill. | | You're right though, when we bought it according the the | computer the previous owner had never charged it. The | charge cable wasn't even out of it's plastic. When we sold | it to Car Max the new owner never setup their Ford Sync so | we kept getting reports by email and they never charged it | once. | NDizzle wrote: | There's a sweet spot that Ford missed with the C-Max. | | I have a 2nd gen Volt. 50-60 miles on all electric when | it's warm, 30-40 when it's cold. That, by the way, will | bite a lot of people in the ass as they try EVs. | | Anyways, 62,000 miles on the Volt, lifetime MPG is in the | 170s. | duffyjp wrote: | I think the key is the Volt was designed to be a great | plug in hybrid from the start. The C-Max had an ICE only, | standard hybrid, and plug-in hybrid version. Our plug-in | literally had two separate high voltage batteries. Half | the cargo bay was just a carpeted box full of batteries. | | It was also terribly engineered. Plugging the car into | the wall didn't top off the 12V battery and whatever | mechanism it used to do so was inadequate so you'd go out | in the morning to a stone dead car quite often. The | number of recalls was insane, though we got a lot of free | oil changes out of that as the dealer usually threw them | in free during recall services. | | First and last Ford I'll ever buy. | melony wrote: | They shouldn't have discontinued the Fusion. It could | have used a revamp though, like what Toyota did for the | Venza. | francisofascii wrote: | What? That doesn't sound right. I would have to think the | majority of people plug them in. That is the whole point of | paying more for a plug-in. | exhilaration wrote: | There was a bunch of reporting on this study like this: | https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/features/phev-owners- | not... | | Here's the actual study (PDF): https://theicct.org/wp- | content/uploads/2022/12/real-world-ph... | | We may have talked about it on HN. | sbradford26 wrote: | I believe this stems from a paper that came out about how | some large percentage of PHEVs never plugged in. The | large caveat was that a large amount of that data was | from company vehicles for employees. Which those | employees have very little incentive to actually plug in | since typically the company pays for fuel costs. | jacquesm wrote: | In plenty of countries those plug-in hybrids were sold | with lots of up front subsidies and reduced running costs | due to lower taxation for the first five years. | oblio wrote: | Do we actually have proof for this or is just FUD, to be | frank? | | I heard the same thing but then after talking to some | owners, sure, the ones that couldn't easily charge them did | that, but everyone that could charge them, did, and liked | it. | | The electric motor is zippy, the car is silent, the range | is enough for the average commute. | | They generally like it and what you're saying sounds more | like a early days myth. | | I could be wrong, the world is a big place. | scotty79 wrote: | No idea if that's just the FUD or not. Sounds like | something that might happen. | | https://uk.motor1.com/news/276595/uk-hybrids-never- | plugged-i... | pfdietz wrote: | We've bought Toyotas for years. All our family cars are Toyotas. | | I don't plan to buy another one, unless they can make a good EV. | lotsofpulp wrote: | Hah, I am waiting for Toyota to make a well reviewed EV to buy | one. Otherwise, I am fine with their ICE/hybrid options. | BizarreByte wrote: | Toyota is probably the only brand loyalty I have and yah, | I'll happily keep buying either gas or hybrids from them. | | I'm in no rush for electric, but when Toyota makes an EV | Corolla that'll be a sign to me EVs are actually ready for | normal people. They've rightfully gained my trust and their | seal of approval on car tech does matter to me. | neon_electro wrote: | What do you think of GM's Bolt E(U)V? | drumhead wrote: | Taking a small local car manufacturer and turning it into the one | of the worlds biggest car makers, , overtaking all the US giants | and creating the JIT process to revolutionise manufacturing is | remarkable. | epolanski wrote: | Toyota isn't just "one of the worlds biggest car makers" it is | THE biggest car maker on the planet. | | They sell 25% more cars than the Volkswagen group (second | biggest car maker on the planet) which includes Volkswagen, | SEAT, Skoda, Porsche, Bentley and Audi and 50% more than | Stellantins (which includes Fiat, Citroen, Peaugeot, Jeep, Ram, | Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Opel and another 6 manufacturers). | | It's just impressive how many cars Toyota sells. | | Toyota and Lexus also generally turn buyers into recurrent | customers as few brands on this planet do. | | If "no one got fired for buying Intel", I think it's fair to | say that "no one got it wrong by buying a Toyota/Lexus". I just | can't think any car manufacturer that gives you as much as | Toyota for the price you pay. | clouddrover wrote: | > _They sell 25% more cars than the Volkswagen group (second | biggest car maker on the planet)_ | | No. Volkswagen and Toyota are pretty even. They swap | positions as the biggest car maker. Volkswagen became the | biggest in 2017 but Toyota became the biggest again in 2021: | | https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/28/business/toyota- | volkswage... | blululu wrote: | It's even better than that: I am not a recurrent customer | since my 2004 Corolla is still rolling along after all these | years. Who knows maybe I'll buy another one someday, but it | hasn't been an urgent priority. | blevin wrote: | It really is amazing. Another way to visualize this success is | to consider how physically close you are to one of Toyota's | products right now, sort of a K-nearest neighbors idea. And how | many of those were manufactured in Japan, and considered | notable within their category (ex: 4Runner, RAV4 Prime). | psychomugs wrote: | Their '90s sedans were the pinnacle of cars, so perfect that The | Onion wrote their first non-satire piece on why a '93 Camry will | outlive you and your bloodline. | | Wan Bi naChe de, Cheng niarigatogozaimasu. | | https://www.theonion.com/toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-fa... | AdmiralAsshat wrote: | My uncle still has a '93 Camry, to boot. I sent him that | article like five years ago. He still has it. When it dies he | will switch full-time to his backup vehicle, a 2005 Camry. | jonny_eh wrote: | > When it dies | | If | gowld wrote: | How is that non-satire? | notlukesky wrote: | I remember being shocked in the 90s at finding out the Toyota | Corolla had the highest value retention of any car according to | the Kelly Blue Book. And then there was the NUMMI joint-venture | of Toyota and GM and the same exact cars that would come out of | that factory would have different value retention. Obviously the | GM car would depreciate more in value. Brand reputation clearly | matters. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI | | Tesla has now taken over the NUMMI facilities. | dsfyu404ed wrote: | Brand reputation is a positive feedback loop. | | Better reputation -> charge more money -> poorer people who are | gonna use your product at 11/10ths and try and skate by with | the bare minimum of proactive maintenance buy it less -> the | average example on the road is in better condition for its age | -> high end consumers go "hey those things are lasting well | I'll buy one" -> your average customer is richer so you don't | have to cheap out in as many places on your product -> | GoTo(step 2). | | Of course the process needs to be kick started with a couple | actual good products but once it takes off you're basically | home free if you don't f it up. | | The whole "the same GM car deprecated more" makes for great | online virtue points from fanboys but it's not exactly | illustrative of anything that isn't well known to be from other | factors. The versions of otherwise identical cars that are | preferred by higher end consumers will hold value better | because they get treated better and kept nicer resulting in | higher value at any given age/mileage. You can see this trend | in action if you cross shop badge engineered cars that are old | enough that purchase price no longer has any bearing on price. | kube-system wrote: | Yep. The opposite feedback loop is "big Altima energy". The | $1000 cheaper new cars become the preferred cars of those who | don't care or can't really afford it, which end up being the | cheapest and most abused used cars. Which end up on buy-here- | pay-here lots. And repeat. | creaturemachine wrote: | I have to wonder if maybe it was the way GM and their | dealers marketed these vehicles. The Prizm wasn't sold in | my market so I don't truly know, but I think brand loyalty | on the dealers' side saw them push customers to the more | true-blue options like the cavalier. One doesn't have to | spend long at your average street corner to see how that | turned out for the customer. | kube-system wrote: | Yeah, it totally starts with marketing, and how | manufacturers target their markets: | | https://jalopnik.com/nissan-is-going-to-pay-dealers-more- | to-... | | Walk into a Honda/Toyota dealership and you'll probably | be offered 48 or 60, and a short warranty to match. | swottler wrote: | There's an excellent episode of This American Life about the | NUUMI experiment and why it failed to change GM. | | https://www.thisamericanlife.org/561/nummi-2015 | throwntoday wrote: | I've always been a die-hard Japanese auto fan, and I'd say cars | were a huge influence to my interest in engineering. What he did | for the industry at large alongside Honda is immeasurable. Always | sad to see giants go. | | sayonaraLi Tian sama | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | _> establishing a culture of quality control that helped Toyota | evolve into a world-leading automaker._ | | A lot of the JIT stuff that is so common, these days, was | revolutionary, when he introduced it. | | I'm told that many agile techniques also had their genesis in his | work. | SnowHill9902 wrote: | It was mainly Taiichi Ohno who thought and created their | production system and philosophy, not Toyoda. | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | Ah. I was always under the impression that it was Toyoda. | | Thanks for the correction! | hef19898 wrote: | It was , as all big achievements, a team effort. And | apparently Ohno is getting not that much of coverage in | internal Toyota documents and history. He also did seem to | EDIT: not EDIT be the nicest of persons. He absolutely was | one of the drivers during the early days of TPS. | ericalexander0 wrote: | Who learned the Toyota/Toyoda way from Sakichi Toyoda. | | https://www.toyota- | industries.com/company/history/toyoda_sak... | oblio wrote: | I wonder if Deming | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming#Japan) | contributed to the Toyota Way? A lot of the Toyota Way seems | inspired by his teachings. | bischofs wrote: | I work at Toyota, and they credit him on day one of training | on the Toyota philosophy. Toyota's success is just a function | of them listening to western consultants after the war when | western companies would not. | blululu wrote: | There are also some broader macroeconomic reasons that | these philosophies took root in post-war Japan. The | combination of a weakened currency and strong New Deal | style labor laws (that were proposed but thwarted by | Detroit) was unique. Labor was cheap but politically | dominant and materials were in short supply (I believe | Shoichiro took power in the wake of a nearly catastrophic | strike that gave him very few options beyond innovating on | process). | jlg23 wrote: | Or maybe it is the result of filling hollow, generic advice | with some meaning. I'd really love to hear the original | advice given by western consultants. | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | I believe so. | | He is almost revered, in Japan. | | I'm told he was laughed out of the US, which is why he set up | shop in Japan. | Gordonjcp wrote: | Now you imagine, how good do your ideas have to be an | American coming to Japan just after World War II, and all | the industry leaders of somewhere that was famously insular | go "yeah, actually, this is good, this is what we should | do, let's get this guy to meet everyone"? | astrange wrote: | A strange variant of this is Japan's reaction to getting | anti-Semitic propaganda from Europe was that these people | secretly controlling the world sounded pretty cool and | competent, so they tried getting them to immigrate. | Though, it didn't really work out. | kevin_thibedeau wrote: | Japan already did that in the 19th century when they were | shopping around for foreign experts in industry and the | military for their modernization. Not a stretch to do it | again considering people involved in that process were | still alive. | dsfyu404ed wrote: | >yeah, actually, this is good, this is what we should do, | let's get this guy to meet everyone" | | Or they go "they won, I guess we're obligated to try | doing it their way at least once". | bobthepanda wrote: | Japan's destruction was extremely total; even if you did | not get hit by the nukes, your city was most likely | firebombed to the ground. The economy was in shambles, | everyone who was still alive was struggling to eat as the | logistics chain had totally broken down, etc. | | In that context it is not really surprising that Japan | rejected many of its old institutions and ways. | yulker wrote: | He probably had an influence but I find it curious that he | always gets brought up around these topics, as if he's the | primary explanatory variable for Japanese manufacturing | success. | oblio wrote: | I learned about him only recently and despite his | supposedly strong influence, he isn't talked about much. | edmundsauto wrote: | Fwiw, I hear about Deming so often that my bias is that | he's over represented! Then again, my dad was in the | field so he was practically revered in my childhood. | julianz wrote: | Yep, same. My dad introduced "total quality management" | into New Zealand and I heard about Deming a hell of a lot | growing up. | BolexNOLA wrote: | I am curious how many people are rethinking how aggressively to | set up a JIT system in the wake of COVID and the supply chain | issues, given it clearly cost many companies an astronomical | amount of money in the end. Obviously you shouldn't build your | entire company around rare, worst case scenarios, but there | should probably be _some_ consideration budgeted in for them | IMO and it seems few companies were ready for rainy days. | | A very very tiny (maybe not even applicable) example is how I | always keep a camera or two when I buy new ones and don't sell | them all off. You never know when your workhorse is going to | breakdown. Just something I'm mulling over I guess! | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | I remember a chap I know, who married a Russian, and he said | the Iron-Curtain Soviet ethos was, to make two of everything, | so that, when one inevitably borks, the other one can be | used, or cannibalized for parts. | rawgabbit wrote: | JIT made sense for Toyota and they took steps to ensure their | suppliers were beholden to them (that is they shipped | whenever Toyota needed it). | | JIT doesn't make sense for global supply chains when the | suppliers i.e. China or Russia government can impose | embargoes at will with little warning. | quartesixte wrote: | JIT also works really well when all your major | manufacturing centers are an average 3-4 hour drive from | each other. 6-8 at the furthest maybe. | | JIT breaks down over global distances because "in time" and | "instant" mean very different things even when moving | nearly at the speed of sound. Even if no one embargoed | anyone, you can't beat the laws of physics. | BolexNOLA wrote: | > JIT made sense for Toyota and they took steps to ensure | their suppliers were beholden to them (that is they shipped | whenever Toyota needed it). | | Did that still hold true during the pandemic? I mean if you | can't get stuff on the ships (huge part of the chain) they | can't go out. It's not always a choice for suppliers as we | saw. | ughitsaaron wrote: | > I'm told that many agile techniques also had their genesis in | his work | | The "kanban" interfaces definitely originate from Toyota. Scrum | was influenced by Toyota's management techniques, among others. | I believe other familiar concepts, e.g. "kaizen" or continuous | improvement, also originate from Toyota. | baybal2 wrote: | Toyota wasn't first. | | But it was them learning a lot from working on looms, and | other stuff at textile mills taught them how to max | productivity. | | Textiles making was already a very competitive industry in | late 19th century, and the only way to push forward in | productivity after looms were optimized to the max was to cut | slack in between machines -- management techniques. | | There the manufacturers were stealing each other's ideas | "within months" as Japan had no enforceable Western style | patent system yet. | | The electric andon was for example copied from Suzuki looms, | where it prevented looms from dethreading when the machine | runs out of thread, and requiring hours to manually rethread | it again. | | Stopping the entire mill for a few minutes to recharge a loom | begins to make much more sense when you understand that the | alternative is to stop it for hours. | radiator wrote: | There are many books on the Toyota system, so that they | have stolen the show. I have always suspected that other | Japanese factories might have also had interesting | production systems but only found one book about Honda. How | did you know this detail about the electric andon | originating at Suzuki? Can you suggest books on this topic? | szundi wrote: | Toyota learned it from western consultants, but made it work | like a charm. I think they are the real champions of the lean | philosophy, kanban, kaizen, 5s, etc. | wil421 wrote: | My father worked for a defense manufacturer making airplanes | and other stuff. One of his first projects was scheduling parts | for manufacturing in the late 80s. | | They joked at the time they used JIC (just in case) because | they had so many random parts with no method to the madness. | The scheduler worked out and they were able to move it off some | high performance IBM (or similar) computer onto a PC that | didn't require a specialized IBM tech or support contract, | written in C. | [deleted] | gkanai wrote: | I've seen this news of Toyoda's passing posted across various | social media channels and it's incredible to see how many Toyota | owners have thanked him posthumously. I remember that when Steve | Jobs died. This seems similar in a sense. | dsfyu404ed wrote: | >This seems similar in a sense. | | They exist in very similar segments portions of their | respective industries serving very similar customer | demographics (in North America). Naturally there is going to be | quite a bit of evolutionary convergence. | neoromantique wrote: | Are there though? Toyota is never perceived as a luxury | brand, it is associated with quality, reliability and | maintainability. | | Something that you can hardly say about Apple. | UniverseHacker wrote: | I disagree. The main reason I buy Apple laptops is the | physical reliability... they absolutely make low end | (feature wise) models that still have top notch physical | quality and longevity, including historically making super | bare bones school/education targeted models. I know it's a | premium model, but my 2010 Macbook Pro is still going | strong with zero repairs other than two battery | replacements that took about 5 minutes each, after over a | decade of regular hard travel use. I think I'd be lucky to | get 6 months from the average PC laptop with use like that. | | I'd argue that my iPhone SE2 is also a product that is very | much a low end non-luxury phone, but with unparalleled | physical build quality. I purchased it from a budget box | store as part of a cheap prepaid cell phone plan- total | ownership cost will be far less than the cheapest Android | phones targeted at the 3rd world, if you consider how much | longer it will likely last. | scrlk wrote: | > I know it's a premium model, but my 2010 Macbook Pro is | still going strong with zero repairs other than two | battery replacements that took about 5 minutes each, | after over a decade of regular hard travel use. I think | I'd be lucky to get 6 months from the average PC laptop | with use like that. | | Tip: don't bother with consumer grade PC laptops if you | are after longevity. Only buy "business grade" machines | like Lenovo ThinkPads, Dell Latitudes, HP | EliteBook/ZBooks. | lukas099 wrote: | It is also nice how long Apple continues to release | security updates for their phones, which I believe is | longer than any Android phone manufacturer. | filoleg wrote: | Yeah, they go quite a bit back when it comes to full iOS | updates, and even further back when it comes to security | updates.[0] | | The oldest iPhone that supports the most recent full iOS | version update (iOS 16) is iPhone 8, which was released | in 2017. And they released a security update for iOS 12 | in August of 2022 that supports iPhone 5s (released in | 2013). | | That would make it 5 years for full OS updates and 9 | years for security updates. | | 0. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222 | zik wrote: | > The main reason I buy Apple laptops is the physical | reliability... | | My impression is that they've had several years of poor | quality and bad design decisions with their laptops. Some | models were banned from flights due to battery fire | issues [1]. They had keyboard problems for many years | [2]. And they've had a lot of recalls [3]. | | Fortunately the quality seems to have improved with the | M1/M2 macbooks. | | [1] https://www.techradar.com/news/macbook-pro-flight- | ban-everyt... | | [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/19/apple-settles- | macbook-butter... | | [3] https://www.macworld.com/article/673631/macbook- | recalls-and-... | fomine3 wrote: | Apple iPhone is not only luxury brand but also reliability | brand. | ethbr0 wrote: | They didn't distribute most of their luxury platforms | worldwide. | | E.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Century | scrlk wrote: | The Century is such a wonderfully understated car. The | European equivalent would probably be something like a VW | Phaeton with the W12 engine. | | This marketing video from Toyota on the 2nd gen Century | is a good summary: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1erJ1eVmLo | skhr0680 wrote: | Lexus entering Japan started the slow decline of Toyota- | badged luxury sedans. The Alphard is still an upper- | middle class status symbol, but the people who saw Toyota | as a luxury brand bought their last Crown ten years ago | and are fast approaching 80. I suspect that is also the | reason for the unification of Toyota badges and the Hail | Mary design of the new Crown. | Octoth0rpe wrote: | That's highly dependent upon which country you're in. In | the United States, Toyota has a separate brand for their | luxury offerings (Lexus), and so what you say is true. But | in other countries, those nice Lexus cars are sold as | Toyotas. | hotpotamus wrote: | Yes, I came to say that if I were to buy a luxury car, it | would be a fancy Toyota AKA Lexus. I wonder if most | people aren't aware of that? And Cadillac is just GM? | It's hardly unusual in the American market - I believe | it's been called badge engineering for at least as long | as I've been alive. | neoromantique wrote: | There is a reason why Toyota separated their luxury | segment into a different brand. | dsfyu404ed wrote: | Apple doesn't prioritize reliability because that's not | what their subset of upper middle class consumers want in a | phone. Toyota doesn't prioritize cost or | feature/performance parity because that's not what their | subset of upper middle class consumers want in a vehicle. | | They both make products that are about as high as you can | go in their respective market segments without getting into | pure luxury and conspicuous consumption type purchases and | refuse to go down-market lest they sully their brand image. | In both cases they lather it up with a pretext so buyers | don't feel like they're indulging in a luxury purchase. In | apple's case they tightly integrate the hardware and | software to assure a homogeneous user experience. In | Toyota's case they try and dominate the 3rd party rankings | on reliability. Of course, when you compare to the "next | best" think in their class, like a Google or Samsung | flagship phone or a Honda Accord you'll find that the | actual difference is razor thin and that not having any | "value priced garbage products" is really what's doing the | reputational heavy lifting. Not wading into value priced | territory is also very useful to the great many of each | brand's respective customers who are willing to pay a huge | premium to not have to think about it. A Toyota product may | be overpriced for it's features/performance but if you just | want an A to B appliance in a particular form factor it | will do so with minimal maintenance expense. You won't have | to waste your precious brainpower thinking about an | expensive 100k service or fiddling with some gimmick | feature. And on the apple side of things their tight | control over the hardware-software combo results in a | pretty strong guarantee of a high minimum user experience. | If you just want a "nice phone" and don't wanna think about | software versions, various flavors of android OS and stuff | like that you can simply buy whatever iphone is in your | budget? Is it the nicest phone in your budget, no. But you | didn't have to waste precious brain-power comparing all the | various Android options. | | Basically they both charge a premium for products that | "just work" and they refuse to get into market niches where | they can't do that, much to the benefit of their brand | image. | | The above applies to North America only. Toyota makes a | more diverse set of stuff globally and Apple doesn't | dominate the same buyer demographics globally. | sokoloff wrote: | I don't know if Apple _prioritizes_ reliability in their | phones, but that seems to be an _outcome_ of whatever | they do prioritize. | | My family's four iPhones are: 2 iPhone X (Nov 2017), 1 XS | Max (Sept 2018), and 1 13 (Sept 2021, only bought in | order to hand-down one of the X to our kid). Those phones | are 5, 5, 4.5, and 1.5 years old. Each of the 3 older | phones was bought used when the next phone generation was | released. Across our ownership, I've replaced two screens | and three batteries (two were needed and one was "while | I'm replacing the screen, it's easy and would be needed | soon"), all DIY. | | I doubt we'll replace any of these phones in the next 2 | years. The iPhone 8 is still getting software updates to | iOS 16, so I expect the X will keep getting updates for | several more years. | triceratops wrote: | iPhones and Macbooks last a long time and get software | updates way longer than comparable products. | thfuran wrote: | iPhones have a far longer service live than androids. | cruano wrote: | Something that you can hardly say about the industry* | sva_ wrote: | That's one way of triggering HN. | insane_dreamer wrote: | In the US, Lexus is on par with Merc/BMW/Audi | neoromantique wrote: | There is a reason why Toyota separated their luxury | segment into a different brand. | insane_dreamer wrote: | I would say the first 2 qualities are definitely associated | with Apple esp compared to other phones and laptops. | dorfsmay wrote: | > it's incredible to see | | From that statement, I'm guessing you've never owned a Camry? | ericalexander0 wrote: | It's no coincidence. Jobs was influenced by quality | philosophers like Toyoda, Deming, etc. | | https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kib6uXQsxBA | astrange wrote: | You could say Apple is basically an American copy of Sony. | That's why he wore a uniform even if he couldn't get anyone | else to do it. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-02-15 23:01 UTC)