[HN Gopher] Creation happens in silence ___________________________________________________________________ Creation happens in silence Author : josem Score : 245 points Date : 2023-02-20 14:28 UTC (8 hours ago) (HTM) web link (josem.co) (TXT) w3m dump (josem.co) | ysavir wrote: | I'm not sure what the foundation for this is. | | Some of the best ideas I've had have been developed with other | people. Role playing games especially are all about collaborative | creation. The viewpoint in the article is nothing but tunnel | vision, focusing on what works _for them_ and projecting it out | into a rule. | | I'd wager what the author really means is that to have control | over their work, and not having to bend their ideas to develop | alongside the ideas of others, requires isolation. And that's | something I can relate to. But that isn't about creation, it's | about control, and fulfilling your personal vision rather than | prioritizing a shared vision. | darxist wrote: | what about music? | djxfade wrote: | I produce music in my own time. And for me it's the exact same. | wcedmisten wrote: | This reminds me of Stephen King's reflections from his book "On | Writing": | | > Write with the door closed, rewrite with the door open. Your | stuff starts out being just for you, in other words, but then it | goes out. Once you know what the story is and get it right -- as | right as you can, anyway -- it belongs to anyone who wants to | read it. Or criticize it. | | There's always room for iterative improvement with feedback from | others, but you need to first make something you believe in. | | This kind of clashes with the idea of finding problems to solve | for other people, but I frequently see advice to "solve your own | problems" first, because you know them better than other people's | problems. | leobg wrote: | Applies to coding, too, I find. | proto-n wrote: | Based on the title alone, you might think that this is about | needing silence to be creative. But as far as I understand, the | (very short) post is more about the lack of feedback while | creating. "While you're reading this, creative people are working | hard now across the world on the next novel, movie, or song | you'll love, and yet, you don't know anything about it, and they | don't know if you'll like it either." | | Also, to react to the post itself, yes to some degree, but also | no? Most crative processes involve multiple people going back and | forth, giving feedback along the way. Editors, teammates, talking | to family, brainstorming, etc. Yeah it's not the final audience, | but it's similar. A mind on its own is so so much less creative | then two minds interacting. | M95D wrote: | Sounds like product development, not creation (as in creative | work). | taylodl wrote: | Product development is creation, is it not? Sure, the medium | is different and even the process may be different but | product development is a creative endeavor. | lmarcos wrote: | At least for me, product development is all about the | business: you need to get feedback to know you're building | the right thing (otherwise you're fired). Whereas when one | creates alone, it's all about the pleasure of creating for | the sake of it. | californical wrote: | There is a creative part of product development though. | You need to come up with something to vet with the | outside first! | | Successful product development usually needs more than | _just_ the creative process, but it's not totally absent | the upfront creative side either. | andai wrote: | I can't remember which article it was, but Steve Pavlina said | people often ask him, "ok I've written my book, now how do I | sell it?" and he's like, "you dingus! You're supposed to get | the audience first, and _then_ create for them! " | | So there's a spectrum, from creating in silence to creating in | public, which is perhaps down to personal preference or | temperament (introversion / extraversion?). | | I've often seen people launch mailing lists and pre-orders for | products, books, courses, of which they have not yet written a | single line. So their early users get a discount in exchange | for providing invaluable feedback during the development | process. | melvinmelih wrote: | > You're supposed to get the audience first, and then create | for them | | This is certainly the smart thing to do, but there's | something about "creating something for an audience" that | stops my creative juices from flowing. I guess there are too | many thoughts about how this will be received and what people | might think, that it stops me from creating truly great work. | xwdv wrote: | Creation should require some form of bravery, blindly | plunging into the unknown. Not knowing how the creation will | be received until it's actually created. | | In the past decade people have been getting burnt out on all | these lean startup, kickstarting fucks that just want to test | for a market or audience before building out a product. The | end result is we are bombarded with vaporware products, | services, books, that we have to show interest in or worse | put some money down before the creator decides to actually | create anything. This makes people skeptical of "new" | offerings. The consumer wants a product right away, not a | promise. Also, the end product becomes subject to the tyranny | of whatever can be tested for with pre-marketing. | | The risk needs to shift back onto the creator. I'm talking | big designs upfront; products coming to market ready to | consume. If it does poorly, the creator just takes the hit in | the form of wasted time and money. This is how things _used_ | to be, before a generation of entrepreneurs decided they | wanted to be risk averse and try out a hundred half baked | ideas rather than one idea really well thought out. It seems | that as the skill of getting products right on the first try | began to wane, "lean" processes began to grow in popularity. | rchaud wrote: | > I've often seen people launch mailing lists and pre-orders | for products, books, courses, of which they have not yet | written a single line. | | I can spot these people from a mile away. | | What they're doing is antithetical to the sentiment expressed | in this post, which is about being creative. Not doing pre- | marketing for some side hustle course or e-book. | TeMPOraL wrote: | > _I 've often seen people launch mailing lists and pre- | orders for products, books, courses, of which they have not | yet written a single line. So their early users get a | discount in exchange for providing invaluable feedback during | the development process._ | | Or, more often, their users get _nothing at all_. | | I steer clear of people doing this. It's one thing get other | people's feedback on what's clearly communicated as just an | idea, or a work in progress. It's another thing to claim you | have a ready (or launching any minute now!) product/service, | while all you really have is a webpage full of lies and a | textbox for victims of your con artistry to leave their | contact information, so you can "gauge interest" / "determine | market size" (and possibly spam those e-mails later with | something else). The latter I consider dishonest, and on the | off chance someone doing this actually launches their thing, | I'll already be biased against purchasing/subscribing. | Cthulhu_ wrote: | Brainstorming is actually a formal process where you bounce | ideas back and forth without judgment; a "yes and" state of | mind, instead of checking if the ideas are viable. | User23 wrote: | > Based on the title alone, you might think that this is about | needing silence to be creative | | On that tangent, I believe this is very much dependent on the | person in question. I personally like to do knowledge work in | library silence. I even find music distracting, although | instrumental music without vocals is better than open office | noise. On the other extreme I've heard stories that Richard | Feynman liked to do physics in strip clubs. I'm not ashamed to | admit that Feynman was more creative than I'm likely to ever | be, but I don't think that my relative inferiority in that | regard is because I'm not working from a strip club. | mrandish wrote: | > because I'm not working from a strip club. | | Like you, I mostly prefer creating in quiet solitude | approaching sensory deprivation. However, sometimes I find it | possible to coax a creative idea or concept into conscious | awareness when surrounded by a familiar roar of external | stimuli but only as long as I perceive that cacophony as a | fairly uniform wall of noise. Personal examples include | aimlessly walking alone around a massive trade show floor | with booths all blaring their visual and sonic messages. For | me, such noisy environments seem especially good for more | "connectionist" type inspirations. | | I've heard the Feynman strip club story and others like it, | and always interpreted it in a similar way. It appears that | environment was both familiar and comfortable for Feynman and | perhaps his ideas could emerge as signal from the wall of | perceptual noise. | cableshaft wrote: | For sure. And take board game design. If your game isn't being | put in front of people in a prototype state and getting | feedback (and more than just your closest friends), you're | likely putting yourself at a disadvantage when you put a game | out there. There are conventions and playtest groups just for | getting that feedback before you commit to the full project. | | It'll help you identify problem areas in the game, how engaged | the players are, if they find it interesting, help you with | specific design problems you're having, etc. I don't think a | single board game design of mine hasn't incorporated at least | something from the feedback I've gotten from others, before it | was pitched to publishers/released. | | The same technically applies to video games as well, but that's | much riskier, as if you put it out there too much too early, | there's a real risk that another developer will take your idea | and beat you to market with it (unless it's a narrative or | content-heavy game, like a Stardew Valley or Undertale, which | my games tend not to be). I've had a few of my games get cloned | and put onto other platforms before I've had a chance to, for | example, and I'm just a small solo developer. | | I do agree that you need periods of silence, though. Sometimes | very long periods. | eternalban wrote: | The true silent creation is the transformation of the creative | human being. Creative activity, specially if it is private, will | inevitably transform character. It 'cooks' and may even become | tasty. This is the actual fruit of creative effort that is | entirely personal (though widely shared via interactions) and in | my opinion the sole motivation for being creative beyond the | pleasures involved. All else is vanity. | HPsquared wrote: | I do my best work at night, offline. | | EDIT: I think in knowledge work, a kind of "sow and harvest" | model works well. Going around during the day collects little | "seeds" of knowledge which are then synthesized (harvested) in | quiet periods of deep work at night. | TeMPOraL wrote: | So do I. | | If I knew how hard it is to square software work with having a | family, I'd have chosen a different career track. | shrimp_emoji wrote: | A real artist respects the silence as it serves as the foundation | of creativity! | | https://youtu.be/9E62iA6KCIQ | waynesonfire wrote: | > Creation happens in silence | | Not according to Amazon and their 3 day return to office policy. | swayvil wrote: | With silence comes clarity. | | That's a well-known meditation thing. | | There are lots of ways to get silence : solitude, peaceful | lifestyle, concentration... | | Concentration is a big one. It de-agitates your organs of | perception. And it can be taken to profound levels of refinement. | And then you see ... deeper. | | As any scientist/engineer/artist is surely familiar. | kayodelycaon wrote: | The article is actually about not knowing how a creative | endeavor will be perceived. Not physical silence. | [deleted] | swayvil wrote: | Actually... Oh what's the point. | DanielBMarkham wrote: | I wrote on this over the weekend in an essay titled "Forced | Boredom" | | A lot of this is standard advice for various creators. I think, | however, that it's possible to optimize yourself for the process. | I find in my professional life and watching others that there are | creative stages which are followed by forgetting these lessons, | then re-learning them all over again. Humans are complex | machines. | | Shameless plug: https://danielbmarkham.com/forced-boredom/ | evan-buss wrote: | "Our species is the only creative species, and it has only one | creative instrument, the individual mind and spirit of man. | Nothing was ever created by two men. There are no good | collaborations, whether in music, in art, in poetry, in | mathematics, in philosophy. Once the miracle of creation has | taken place, the group can build and extend it, but the group | never invents anything. The preciousness lies in the lonely mind | of a man." - John Steinbeck, East of Eden | [deleted] | flat-pluto wrote: | The author says silence but means isolation - ".....isolation | without any signals or external validation until it's complete" | | I'd say this is just the first stage of creating something, an | MVP of sorts. After that you do need to get some feedback, | iterate and improve it step-by-step to get the finished product. | josem wrote: | Hey! | | Author here :) | | It was more a metaphor from that moment when I was writing in | fact in silence and the lack of any external input / voice | telling me whether something I'm doing is good or bad but I | know what you mean, perhaps using "isolation" would have made | the article clearer, thanks! | mrandish wrote: | I also reacted the same way to your write-up. As a | professional creative toward the end of a multi-decade | career, I interpreted it as describing the initial moment of | inception, which for me, tends to come all in a rush after a | long period of uninterrupted solitude. However, after the | 'aha' realization my creative process turns to first | capturing the now-connected pieces, then forming them into | some rough first expression and bouncing that off of early | collaborators for feedback. This is usually followed by an | intense period of creative engagement with others as the | initial idea or concept is sharpened and refined from an | often messy pile of "not quite it" into something much more | like its eventual self. | | What you described is the often invisible first parts of | creation which involve exploring the space, then posing the | question or framing the problem and finally stewing on it | until the seed of the thing is ready to emerge in that moment | of solitude. The best collaborators and producers understand | the necessity and shape of this process. | leobg wrote: | Rich Hickey says "the computer is the worst place to work". I | guess he means precisely for the reason you state. The best | ideas come when there's no input from outside. | flat-pluto wrote: | I also knew what you meant but it was more for those people | who skip the article and comment based solely on the title. | | Sidenote - if you can find the time, you should write more | often. I just went through your articles and there is a lot | of useful advice to be found. The projects are pretty | interesting too. Cheers! | josem wrote: | Thank you, you've made my day with this comment! | [deleted] | pklausler wrote: | I get ideas and find solutions in many environments, but never in | places where I can hear people speaking, like high-density open- | plan office hellscapes. | jmbwell wrote: | This is a concise thought expressed clearly. I fully agree that | much of the work of being creative happens in silence, or more | specifically, in a state of flow, in which all of the creator's | faculties and energies are directed toward the manifestation of | intent. It's a rare state even for prolific creators. | | Sure there's other work to be done, all the administration and | logistics of adapting the product to the need, all the business | aspects, the mechanical, what have you. But the springing to life | of an idea into reality... there's a species of this that seems | to emerge in isolation. | | For some, and I count myself among this group, the challenge that | comes next is in releasing this ore of an idea to its audience or | its destination. As soon as you publish it, it's no longer under | your control. People make what they will of it. It may not be | what you intended them to make of it. But you can no longer help | it. It's everyone else's product now. | | So you can protect it and hold on to it and keep it in its | isolation to maintain its reflection of the conditions that | created it, or you can release it, and let it find a life of its | own. Sometimes that's scary and sometimes that's exhilarating. | Whatever it is, the moment of silence between it and its creator | is something only the creator will have experienced. | [deleted] | kerkeslager wrote: | It's a bit arrogant to assume that _your_ creative process is | _everyone 's_ creative process. | | I sometimes need silence for periods of intense concentration, | but that's really not sustainable for me and more often I need | collaboration to create, bouncing ideas off other people and | getting feedback and additional ideas. This doesn't work as well | for really intricate sorts of creativity, but the reality is | that, for me, the majority of creativity isn't that. | | I particularly had to chuckle when the OP mentions _music_. Sure, | they don 't directly say it gets created in silence, but they do | say it happens in isolation, which is true in some cases, but | just isn't true for the vast majority of bands. | | Even creation which has little to do with sound, such as novel- | writing, is often done with sound and collaboration: if you read | enough about writing you'll discover that many novelists seek | other novelists to discuss ideas with, or you'll find that | certain novels were written while listening to certain albums. | | Of course, some creation does happen in silence and isolation. | marginalia_nu wrote: | I feel like most of my creative problem solving happens when I'm | not working on the problem. There seems to be, roughly speaking, | a three part process: | | * A loading phase where I immerse into the problem. This requires | silence and concentration. Basically staring at the problem and | its various aspects for a few hours. Hmm. What if? No. But maybe. | Nope. Hmm. Hmm. The problem will often seem too big to fit in my | head. I can sort of fumble and grasp its outline, but I don't see | it clearly. | | * A background processing phase, this requires a sense of almost | boredom. I need to step away from the keyboard. A disengagement | from further input, from intellectual stimuli in general. I can't | distract myself with entertainment either. I must be a bit bored. | | * All the sudden there will be clarity, deep insight into what | needs to be created. Like the microwave going _bing_ , signalling | the cooking is ready. I'll solve not only one problem, but half a | dozen. The solutions come faster than I can implement them. I | need to pace myself and write my ideas down before I implement | them. | | It's a heck of a ride. | whateveracct wrote: | I also have this process. Sadly, it means I cannot go faster to | some degree. Which becomes a pain when a manager wants | Velocity. | maccard wrote: | I've found exercise works best for step 2, fwiw. I rotate | weightlifting, yoga, golf and dog walking with great success. | thealienthing wrote: | Sometimes I get that epiphany of "oh I forgot this!" Then run | back to my computer to try it. Usually that wasn't the problem | but after running back two or three times I my epiphany turns | out to be true | nathias wrote: | for me its similar but I don't need boredom, I either get the | insight randomly or in dreams/waking up | marginalia_nu wrote: | I think boredom is maybe the wrong thing. I can't be too | engaged in something. That seems to sabotage the process. I | can't play video games or watch some exciting movie (or | scroll HN ;-) | | Physical work can help. Or just doing something that's not | too engaging. | SL61 wrote: | It's the same for me: the eureka moment happens when I'm not | consciously thinking of the problem at all, and often I'm | fully engaged in an unrelated activity. | | Some places I've experienced sudden insight for a technical | problem: | | * playing a video game on Saturday evening | | * briefly awake at 3am to use the bathroom | | * shopping for tea kettles on Amazon | | * reading aloud in a writer's group | | The idea just pops into my head, sometimes throwing me off | the task I'm actually focused on. I assume there's a | subconscious portion of my brain still calculating the | problem even when I don't realize it, but I can see why some | people believe their insights come from a higher power. | anonymouse008 wrote: | Yep - and here's the book on it: The Eureka Factor: Aha | Moments, Creative Insight, and the Brain | | https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400068541/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b... | mgfist wrote: | For me it's always more effective to be doing something | physical in the second phase. Walking, chores, showering. It | helps the focus. | keyle wrote: | It's amusing but most people get stuck on the first phase, | endlessly browsing and bookmarking, watching youtube videos, | and eventually, distracted to hell, RIP creativity "it's all | too hard" or "it's been solved before by people much better | than me". | spfzero wrote: | Bill Lear is quoted as having described his creative process | similarly. Can't find a reference to it now but I read it | decades ago and never forgot it. | vi2837 wrote: | Nothing new here, it is a well known problem solving method for | physicists. | marginalia_nu wrote: | I'm a physicist by education, coincidentally. | vi2837 wrote: | I am too and working in software development :). | dbcurtis wrote: | You very succinctly put what creativity researchers (yes, | that's a thing) have been saying for decades. | | 1. Immersion in the problem. Work diligently. 2. Relax 3. | Insight | uptownfunk wrote: | This mimics physical exercise. You lift heavy weight actively, | and then you go rest, then you come back and the next | (day/week/month) you can suddenly lift heavier (assuming you're | getting the right nutrition/rest and avoiding toxic substances) | | Similarly the brain muscles, you work them out actively, then | you rest, some background magic is happening, and when you come | back and revisit it, all of a sudden the problem can be easier. | You can do something / solve something that all of a sudden you | couldn't do previously. | | The eureka/a-ha moment is a little unique to intellectual work. | It's hard to find something that gives a similar rush to | cracking a hard problem. | | Brings back some fond memories solving USAMO/IMO problems. | brightball wrote: | Accurate. This cycle is a big part of the reason why I don't | like situations where I have developers context switching | constantly. I find that this doesn't happen unless I'm absorbed | in a single problem. | cainxinth wrote: | > _It 's a heck of a ride._ | | Funny, you conclude that way because a lot of my background | processing and moments of sudden clarity happen when I go | cycling after work. | alt227 wrote: | Completely agree. | | Excuse the crudeness, but for me your 'Step 2' is to go and sit | on the toilet. I have solved untold amounts of problems by | stepping away from the computer and sitting on the pot for 20 | mins. | marginalia_nu wrote: | That can help, or just the classic shower insight, but for me | I often get even bigger dividends by stepping _way_ away from | the computer. | | I've had absolute avalanches of new insights when I've been | away from any sort of computer for days. It feels like the | process of loading more "problem" into the working buffer | interrupts or even resets these background processes to some | degree. | jareklupinski wrote: | it's the shower for me too | | something about the sound that helps detune the parts of | the brain that aren't needed, giving maximum | energy/flexibility to the background cores | mordae wrote: | Works in the tub as well. I believe it's a combination of | white noise from the water, lack of windows and screens | and hot water feeling relaxing. | gurjeet wrote: | Pacing around in the parking lot has worked for me many a | times. | erik_seaberg wrote: | I still miss working a block away from Yerba Buena. Office | parks aren't quite the same. | fakedang wrote: | No shame there. I figured out the answer to a question posed | by a professor (which later evolved into my master's thesis), | while sitting on the porcelain throne. Letting go of a few | solids perhaps let's your mental obstacles loosen. | ChuckMcM wrote: | I, like clearly a lot of others :-), resonate with this form. | For me step 2 is walking. Taking a walk for a couple of miles | around the neighborhood is "just boring enough" to trigger this | background processing phase. | simpsond wrote: | Almost OODA like. I have a similar process. I noticed that when | I started taking cat naps mid afternoon, loaded with context, a | solution would find me. Walks are good too. | trashymctrash wrote: | Very well put. I love the metaphors, especially the "microwave | going bing" :D | | Just curious: Where would you put "gather input or feedback | from peers" in that process? | 8note wrote: | Part 1, and after part 3 | marginalia_nu wrote: | I don't think that is part of this process. It's certainly | part of engineering, but not this side of creative problem | solving. This is way off in the deep end. I guess it may be | part of early phase 1 in the sense of immersing myself in the | problem space, but often I don't know even know what problem | I'm solving. Like, not really _know_ it. | | The moment of clarity is when the question is revealed and | the answer is obvious. It's a real parting of the clouds | moment. | pyrolistical wrote: | Yep. Same cycle https://blog.battlefy.com/how-a-principal- | developer-solves-a... | eshack94 wrote: | I'm a bit taken aback by how accurately your creative problem | solving process resembles mine. I've never been able to explain | it so eloquently or cohesively. | | During the first phase, the "problem will often seem too big to | fit in my head" is so accurate, especially while I'm still | focused on understanding the problem (prior to breaking it down | into more manageable pieces). | | I appreciate this comment, thank you. | rankvise wrote: | here's always room for iterative improvement with feedback from | others, but you need to first make something you believe in. | https://rankvise.com/ | erulabs wrote: | I notice a lot of the comments here conflate "creation" and | "creative problem solving", and I really think they're different | things. I'm an engineer - so I absolutely love sitting in a room | of smart people and hashing out a solution to a hard problem - | but that's different I think than what the author is referring | to. | | Creation, building a wholly new thing, is a different activity | than engineering or problem solving, and I agree - requires | silence. Creation also implies an increase in the number of | problems - maybe that's why I tend to avoid silence... nice | article - I think I'll turn off YouTube and code in silence | today! | nicbou wrote: | Not quite. A lot of it, no doubts, but I spend more and more time | seeking inspiration and querying my peers. I involve other people | both as a type of rubber ducking, and as a sanity test. | hinkley wrote: | My experience dealing with wrongheaded coworkers is this: The | more time you spend isolated working on a problem, the more | sunk cost fallacy you experience when people push back on your | idea. | | We have a whole bunch of programming techniques that allow us | to make progress and lay groundwork outside of flow state, and | then when we are certain that we have the solution, jump in for | brief periods and come back out to check in with the world. | | Saints preserve me from people who disappear for eight hours at | a time and expect me to compliment them for their echo chamber | work. Software is a team sport, not a painting. | worik wrote: | Not for musicians in rock bands. | | Quite the opposite..... | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | I enjoyed the read. | | For me, it's similar. | | Not sure how much it resonates with today's software development | zeitgeist, however. | | It seems that most software development companies believe that | creation happens in large, open-plan offices, filled with | chattering people. | wpietri wrote: | I am sure this is true for some people in some situations, but | the sweeping arrogance of this makes me kinda mad: | | > any creation happens in isolation without any signals or | external validation until it's complete. [...] Any idea or | creative work you can think of happens in silence. [...] This | isolation happens in all fields: movies, music, literature, or | product development. | | This is just factually false. | | A really obvious counterexample is improvisational theater. The | creation happens as a team activity in front of an audience. It's | absolutely rich with signals. There's nary a pause, let alone | silence. The same is obviously true with musical improvisation. | And the creation of recorded music can also be deeply | collaborative. [1] | | If you talk with stand-up comedians about their process, they get | ideas from all over, but workshopping material with live | audiences is a vital part of the process of creation. Movies have | storyboards and read-throughs and dailies and reshoots and | intense cross-disciplinary collaboration and iteration. [2] | Literature has writing groups and readings and editors and | friends who read drafts. | | In product development, we have prototypes and user tests and | continuous release and instrumentation and cross-functional teams | and short-cycle processes, all of which can drive creativity if | we choose. | | Do some people need silence to create? Sure. Bless them. For | those that experience periods of silence, can that be a struggle? | Definitely. But the notion of a noble solo genius high on his | mountain creating great things is more myth than reality, and it | can be a harmful one because it makes a lot of people think they | can't be creative, when instead they just need a richer | environment. | | [1] E.g.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M607TcuKf78 | | [2] E.g.: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie- | features/maki... | jarjoura wrote: | Great creation is never done in isolation. | | However, I think there's a mismatch of definitions. Getting to | a destination, and seeing the big picture usually takes a lot | of minds to envision. Once you know the destination, then in | most industries, it falls back on the individual to figure out | how to get to that destination. That's the quiet part. | | In the software industry, it's both collaborative and solo at | the same time. How many projects have you worked on where | someone comes in and clobbers code you've just committed and | then there's merge conflicts and wasted effort trying to | understand what they were doing? If that hasn't happened to you | yet, you're lucky. So on the one hand, agree, you're both | trying to build something together, but most likely you're both | off in your corner figuring out how to contribute your part. | | I do think some of the loneliest parts of creation are when you | see something no one else does and you can't really explain it | without building it first. The amount of effort and energy | required to do that is higher than normal and the fear that it | could backfire weighs on you. | wpietri wrote: | Software can be like that, but it doesn't have to be. I've | been part of teams where we built entire products with | pairing, frequent pair rotation, and cross-functional teams. | | Loneliness is a choice we have made, but I don't think it's a | very good one. | flockonus wrote: | Well, to be fair, both you and the author fall for the same | mistake: conflating what works your you/them, in your/their | context, with what's generally good / bad. | wpietri wrote: | Oh? Where exactly did I do that? | alt227 wrote: | > Do some people need silence to create? Sure. Bless them. | | I would disagree and say your example is pretty much the only | one which works this way, because the process and result | requires multiple people to be expressive together. | | Maybe dance and musical performance might fit the same rough | description, but in those the skill required is personal based, | and so most of the contributers will be in silence | concentrating very hard on their own part and how it fits into | the restas opposed to being completely collaborative. | wpietri wrote: | > your example is pretty much the only one | | Which example? I gave 7. | alt227 wrote: | > Which example? I gave 7. | | IMO Improvistional Theatre is the only valid example here, | the other 6 IMO are silent and I will explain why: | | 1. Music - Done mainly in ones own head, drawing on | personal experience and skill to find something which fits | with what you are hearing. The process may not be silent, | but the creation is. | | 2. Stand up comedy - The writing/creation is done by the | comedian alone, then when workshopping in front of a live | audience they assessing the material against the reactions, | and adjusting it in their brain silently. An audience | reacting is not creating anything, it is informing the | creative process going on in the brain. | | 3. Literature has editors and friends who read drafts - | again all the creation is done in silence. Feedback may be | given verbally, but that informs the creation, it is not | part of it. | | 4. Product development - This is not artistic creation. It | is commerical development. The initial idea and creation is | most likely done by an inventor/designer on their own in | silence. It is commercial requirements which push this into | the further areas of development as you suggest. | | I fully accept this is a subjective opinion so I am not | stating you are wrong, only how other people can have | different opinions based on perspective of what creation, | the creative process, and indeed silence actually is. | | You must have miscounted because I cant find another 2? | wpietri wrote: | How many of these have you actually observed happening? | Because your assertions that they are "silent" (in the | sense of the original piece) seems wildly out of line | with what I've seen. You might try watching the | documentary I linked to see how you're wrong about | recorded music, for example. And if if your only | experience of product development is that sort of top- | down drudgery, I'm truly sorry, but it absolutely can be | richly creative and collaborative. | | > You must have miscounted because I cant find another 2? | | That you're blaming your failures on me is not a good | sign, so this is probably my last reply. I also mentioned | improvisational music and movies. I could also add staged | theater, in which much of the creative work happens in | group contexts (starting with table readings, going | through all of the rehearsals, and often after). | np- wrote: | Pair programming? That's multiple people being creative | together with nothing to do with music or performance. I | think there are plenty of examples of collaborative | creativity. | wpietri wrote: | Absolutely. I was part of a startup that did pairing with | frequent pair rotation. We also collaborated very closely | with product/design. It great to be in the middle of | coding, come across a product question, and drag over the | product manager for discussion. Often together we'd come up | with an approach that was better than any of us would have | separately. | xyzelement wrote: | [dead] | codingdave wrote: | "This isolation happens in all fields: movies, music, literature, | or product development. But it's necessary. No one will come and | tell you to create something." | | While a nice ideal, this feels 100% incorrect. All of those are | commercial endeavors that have people coming to you telling you | to create something. Some of them even come to you with pre- | written requirements, scripts, etc. and tell you to create it. Or | you have a contract committing you to creating a certain amount | of work. | | Individual periods of creative flow may be done in isolation, | that is true. But the article went too far to claim that | isolation is a given in creative work. | chadlavi wrote: | A ton of creation happens in conversation or collaboration with | others, even if this author doesn't think so. | malfist wrote: | With the push to return to office where those offices are over | crowded and open, makes me wonder how much these companies are | strangling the creativity of their workforce. | berkle4455 wrote: | I find it much easier to focus at the office than at home with | my family. | malfist wrote: | If that's you, then feel free to return to the office, just | don't drag the rest of us who don't work like you to the | office because of your family. | VeninVidiaVicii wrote: | I couldn't agree more. It's disheartening to see that in | some workplaces, the organization and support resemble a | daycare more than a professional setting. This pattern of | behavior involves offloading responsibilities to others to | create a productive environment, and it's not an approach | that leads to successful outcomes. | kittyn wrote: | glad to see someone who can call a spade a spade | | of course this opinion won't be popular with all the | people who just grind for their kids and locked in | mortgage | DoingIsLearning wrote: | You are comparing the office with working ad-hoc around your | family. | | For remote work to work you really need to build a designated | space where you go to for the 'work' part of your day. It | could be a part of a bedroom, an attic, a basement, a co-op | office, the point is that it must create separation and you | also have to explain this separation to your family and ask | them to respect it. | | Just because you are remote doesn't mean you are working | 'from home' there is a huge difference perhaps not in | distance but in mindset. | PeterisP wrote: | It's not that easy to just "create separation" - I can | imagine that most people complaining about this have actual | lived-in experience about trying to do that for multiple | years now since the onset of Covid, and it doesn't work for | everyone. "explain this separation to your family and ask | them to respect it" implies either some wishful thinking or | quite privileged assumptions about this being practically | reasonable where you just need to discuss it to make it | true. A part of a bedroom plus asking to be left alone (and | people trying to do that) does not create a work | environment that's even remotely comparable to an office. | | Again, do be reasonable and assume that everyone who has | issues with it has tried all of what you suggested multiple | times over the last years and has gotten to a solid | conclusion that it doesn't work and the separation at home | is not going to happen for their particular situation of | family and housing. And if someone needs to work not from | home but in an office away from home, most people can't | simply afford a proper office if they're not using an | employer-provided one. | eyear wrote: | Jing Zhe Xin Duo Miao | malfist wrote: | Gentle reminder that hacker news is an english site, per the | rules you should be responding in english so that there is | benefit to the group here. | | The article you're commenting on is also in english. | jmbwell wrote: | I suspect posting an arguably relevant comment in its | original language was a stylistic choice more than a lapse in | memory of this site's preference for English. That said, a | more complete post might indeed have included an English | translation, an indicator of the source, and perhaps some | other context. | dboreham wrote: | Google translate works though (at least I think it did...) | swayvil wrote: | TRANSLATOR BOT ACTIVATED | | calm mind that enjoys quietness can often achieve inner peace | and deep perception | andsoitis wrote: | google translate says: "what a wonderful mind", so you're just | saying "good post"? | layer8 wrote: | Also written as Jing Zhe Xin Duo Miao , this seems to be a | quote from a poem by famous eighth-century Chinese poet Du Fu | [0]. See in [1], where it is translated as "The serene have | many marvels in the heart". This [2] site also lists the | translation "With a peaceful mind, you can create wonders", | which maybe works a bit better. | | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du_Fu | | [1] | https://library.oapen.org/bitstream/handle/20.500.12657/2742... | | [2] https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/35880967 | dudul wrote: | No no no, I've been told many times that creation happens during | lunch break at the water cooler! And hard problems are solved by | gathering around The Architect at The Whiteboard. /s | Cthulhu_ wrote: | I mean there's a big difference between creating something new | and solving a problem. | lnsru wrote: | Read this about the creative collaboration last week in an | e-mail from CEO. Creative collaboration looks a bit different | in open office. People hide in kitchen and labs from the noise. | dandellion wrote: | I don't fully agree with this. While it's true that 90% of | everything I create happens in isolation until I publish it, I've | also participated in a few Game Jams where the full creative | process is very collaborative. | revskill wrote: | Same for destruction ;) | [deleted] | myheadasplode wrote: | This doesn't track for me at all, and I'm wondering if I'm | misunderstanding the point. | | The mere presence of another person in the room, whether they're | contributing and providing feedback or not, generates idea after | idea for me. Some of the best ideas I've had have come from | sitting in my living room watching my roommate play Rocket | League, with us occasionally discussing the game. It feels so | difficult and pointless and uninspiring alone that I've | considered hiring an intern or apprentice just to sit there in | the studio with me. | | > As painful as it is, any creation happens in isolation without | any signals or external validation until it's complete. | | This is the exact opposite of my experience writing lyrics. We're | all constantly bouncing ideas off of each other, immediately and | repeatedly. Speaking the lyrics out loud to someone else to gauge | how they'll be received in a song is a go-to method in my circle. | And if that's just revision and not creation, well, most of my | song ideas stem from random phrases spoken out loud to someone in | conversation. | | > While you're reading this, creative people are working hard now | across the world on the next novel, movie, or song you'll love, | and yet, you don't know anything about it, and they don't know if | you'll like it either. | | I guess this is saying that artists generally don't share half- | complete ideas, which is true, but that's because audiences don't | do well with filling in the gaps on their own, not because | "creation happens in silence". Creation is collaborative and | chaotic. | | If you think I'm misreading this article please let me know! It's | a real head scratcher. | | edit: one exception comes to mind - I'm only _inspired_ around | others, but when there 's a musical _problem_ to be solved (e.g. | how do we go from the chorus to the bridge), we all tend to | retreat into our heads to work out possible ideas instead of | playing them out loud for people and seeing what sticks. | kerkeslager wrote: | I don't think you're misreading the article: I think the author | is very arrogantly extrapolating his own creative process to | all of humanity's creative process. | pm wrote: | As you rightly point out, creators don't operate in total | isolation: you're constantly taking in the world around you, | even in solitude. However, as you've surmised at the end of | your comment, there's a difference between sparking an idea and | following through on its creation (though they often work in | concert). ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-02-20 23:00 UTC)