[HN Gopher] Popular education in Sweden: much more than you want... ___________________________________________________________________ Popular education in Sweden: much more than you wanted to know (2022) Author : cdwhite Score : 150 points Date : 2023-02-26 12:35 UTC (10 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.lesswrong.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.lesswrong.com) | null_object wrote: | This gives a really distorted image of the real Sweden I know. | 99% of kids in real Sweden are definitely not hanging out at | these educational centers: in this massively conformist society | (especially for teenagers), the kids are getting hold of beer as | soon as they can, driving cars to the nearest petrol station or | out-of-town car parks, and burning tire marks in the asphalt. | | This sort of article is just window-dressing for what it's really | like to live in this mostly restricted and limited land, out in | the boondocks. | | Swedes living abroad probably actually believe this nostalgic | fiction of their homeland. | j_crick wrote: | As a non-Swede, I didn't get the bit about "massively | conformist society". Could you please expand on it a little or | point to some reading about it? | emj wrote: | 99% are a lot; there would be a constant mist of rubber if they | all left scorch marks on the asphalt. I grew up in the tail end | of what is described, not a part of it but took advantage of | it. I believe the author grew up when that movement did have a | lot of money and engagement, that then faltered in the economic | down turn of the 90ies and with the down fall of the Swedish | farmers party. | | It is still strong, but not as extreme as it used to be. | xpe wrote: | I'm interested in your perspective. What is "real" Sweden to | you? Rural? Urban? Something else? Can you share a little about | where you live? Your age or life phase at least? | | P.S. A bit of direct but constructive criticism: the problem | with saying 99% is that is comes across as overly specific, | even simplistic. It begs the question: have you quantified your | observations? Most people don't. Unfortunately, this makes it | hard to reason statistically about variations in different | perspectives. | orwin wrote: | I think you have a skewed views of 'kids these days' if you | think they're getting beer a soon as they can. | | Data will tell you that alcohol consumption in Europe is down | compared to my generation (millennial). They are also more | engaged than previous generation, especially compared to the | silent generation who basically let their elders kill popular | education (I hear a lot of 'OK boomer', but let it be said that | boomers fought to conserve our rights in my country, at least | in their youth). | | Anyway. | speed_spread wrote: | I also prefer to think of rural Sweden as one big Simon | Stalenhag painting. But I've seen enough of Canada's own | boondocks to have an excellent idea of what you're describing, | unfortunately. I just replace Chryslers with Volvos and Molson | with, uh, Falcon? | peterpost2 wrote: | Clearly the Falcon should be replaced with Norrlands Guld. | bazoom42 wrote: | > Bildung etymologically refers to shaping yourself in the image | (das Bild) of God | | Is this really true? The liked wikipedia page does not seem to | support that. | netrus wrote: | It's complicated, but it's not wrong. [1] | | [1] | https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildung#Begriffsbildung:~:text... | leobg wrote: | "Bild" is indeed "image". Though one also says "bilden" to mean | "generate", "create", or "consist of". For instance, one might | us it to say that two people "bilden" a team (i.e. make up a | team). | bazoom42 wrote: | It was the "image _of God_ " part I doubted. | leobg wrote: | I know. I'm saying it may not have anything to do with an | "image" at all. More with "composing oneself". But I | haven't looked up the etymology. | memling wrote: | Not conclusive, but Luther uses the word Bild in his | translation of Genesis 1. That it may have had or acquired | the meaning pretty easily given the Bible's formative | currency in those years. | tremon wrote: | The German wikipedia page does | (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildung#Begriffsbildung): | | > _Der Begriff Bildung wurde von dem mittelalterlichen | Theologen und Philosophen Meister Eckhart in die Deutsche | Sprache eingefuhrt. Er bedeutete fur ihn das ,,Erlernen von | Gelassenheit" und wurde als ,,Gottessache" angesehen, ,,damit | der Mensch Gott ahnlich werde"_ | | The term Bildung was introduced in the German language by the | medieval theologist and philosopher Father Eckhart. To him, it | referred to "acquiring through inner peace" and was considered | godly: "so that man can become more like God". | | (excuse my German reading skill, it's not as godlike as I'd | like it to be) | | That said, the equivalent Dutch word is "vorming", which | translates literally as "shaping", so I don't the concept | itself is religious in nature. As alluded (but not explicitly | said) on the English page, I think the word lost its religious | connotation by Humboldt's inclusion in his education model. | jacquesm wrote: | > one can debate the morality of funding book clubs with | taxpayers' money | | You could debate it but I would find it hard to find better uses | of that money if it is spent on those would otherwise not be able | to afford such things. | yobbo wrote: | Libraries are already free. The money here is supposedly used | for coffee (or whatever) while meeting and discussing books. | Maken wrote: | Their purpose is different. Libraries are for book storage, | book clubs are for dissemination. | chmod775 wrote: | For countries where pre-school to university education is | funded with taxpayers money and citizens have a right to | education whenever they please, I don't think a book club is | going to break the camel's back. | | I'm speaking as someone who has been enrolled in university | for most of his adult life, attending whatever I feel like, | while paying for it with my taxes. Public libraries, schools, | and universities here have all sorts of clubs and events as | part of their program. | jacquesm wrote: | Literacy goes a lot further than just access to a mountain of | books, having the opportunity to meet with your peers and | others to discuss those books makes it a much richer | experience than reading alone. It can also serve as a reality | check on some of the stuff that you find in books, and can | help by pointing to other interesting reading material. Books | are great, books plus other people is gold. | nothing0001 wrote: | I find a little sad that many people could change books and | sharing experiences with others with using tools such as | chatgpt. Those tools could be used to not discuss things | like education and guide people to follow the agenda of the | fine-tunnings authorities. | Animats wrote: | _" focus on communal self-improvement."_ | | That's worth thinking about. | amarant wrote: | Damn that sounds awesome! As a Swede myself I feel like I missed | out, and I wonder why I never saw anything like this in my youth? | | My best theory is there wasn't much in the very rural area where | I grew up. There wasn't much of anything other than nature to be | fair, so that kinda makes sense I guess... | emj wrote: | Sure there were, but the organized study circles in Sweden are | tightly knit to workers movement, usually there is an house in | a village somewhere ment for this purpose. If there are at | least 1000 people living there you are guaranteed find one | (usually pretty big with that population). The same was (is?) | available in the US, I know there where "workers education | centers" in NYC where you could learn arts etc before the | fifties. | | This all needs people who are engaged in the movement and | money, not a lot, but you do need a steady supply of money. | progre wrote: | >tightly knit to workers movement | | Most popular movements had/has their own study orgamisation. | | In rural Sweden it's just as likely to be Vuxenskolan, the | study branch of the agrarian movement (Centern, 4H, | hushallningssallskapet) | | ABF would be the workers study org, Medborgarskolan the | conservatives. | | There are 10 national organsiations in all. | gumby wrote: | > This is a linkpost for | https://escapingflatland.substack.com/p/popular-education-in... | | Dang, the link is just a ripoff repost; could you fix the URL to | be the original above? | | I saw the same thing ("this is a link post") earlier this week | and only now realize it wasn't a one off. | javanissen wrote: | Given that the author seems to have reposted it themselves, I'm | not sure it's an issue | cdwhite wrote: | I think that's customary at LessWrong, more or less---if folks | write something that's of interest to the community, they'll | double-post, blog and forum. Likewise things get cross-posted | to the EA forum and maybe other places. | tenker wrote: | [flagged] | Timon3 wrote: | And surely there's no way your impression is biased? Or that | you have an agenda? | | It's easy to say something like this, but without any actual | examples, complaints, studies or anything it just detracts from | actual conversations. | pengstrom wrote: | Unfortunately, the current conservative/nationalistic government | has been trying to get it shut down. They use the guide of "tough | on crime" of course, but they have been opposing money for people | of lesser means for a long, long time. | zx8080 wrote: | What do they spend taxpayers money for instead? | geysersam wrote: | Defence, police, tax incentives for driving and reduced tax | on fossile fuels. | | Many other things of course. But these are some of the areas | where the difference is largest compared to the opposition. | froding wrote: | Sure, this is true and I disagree with it. But an observer | should note (and which was not mentioned in the article), that | there has been scandal upon scandal of the funds being given | out for these study circles ending up in Islamist or even | foreign hands. | | Studieforbund are great, but they have to properly track where | the money goes - check receipts, do random inspections to see | how many people are truly attending, etc. | thomastjeffery wrote: | I wish we had something like this in the US. We sorely need it. | | Today, in the US and much of the western world as a whole, we are | missing something I have seen described as "the third place". | This is defined as any social setting that isn't the "first | place" (home), or the "second place" (work). | | Wikipedia introduces the "third place" with examples: "churches, | cafes, clubs, public libraries, gyms, bookstores, stoops and | parks". I disagree with most, if not all of these as true | examples of the third place. | | Churches have explicit missions; whether they be charity, | evangelism, or even to vaguely unite a community: there is always | a goal in mind, and an expectation to _work_ toward that goal. So | despite their extracurricular position, these are the second | place: work. I would include clubs and gyms for the same reason. | | Cafes and bars are businesses. Even if you can casually visit | them, you are expected to buy something. The experience of cafes | and bars may be very _close_ to a third place, but they are | effectively taxed: without buying drinks, the business fails. | That introduces a _deliberate purpose_ to the space that, in | practice, recreates the same social dynamics present in churches, | clubs, and gyms. | | Libraries allow you to choose your goals, but you are expected to | do so quietly and alone. Engaging those around you in casual | conversation is _rude_ , and even against the rules! Libraries | also provide space for extracurricular groups, like clubs, but | that interaction is _explicit_ : it doesn't start organically. So | we end up _again_ with the same "second place" social dynamic! | | So what about public parks? Surely a public park can fill the | void: after all, that's explicitly what they are there for! And | yet, in my experience, this doesn't happen. People use parks for | their _utility_ : to exercise, walk their dogs, or play with | friends. They are effectively an extension of the "first place": | home. | | I can't think of a single physical location in the Untied States | where the average person can freely visit, and _expect_ to be | talked to. Such an interaction is so unfamiliar, it is implicitly | discouraged: an unspoken rule. Sure, there are those who are | willing to break that rule, but when I see it play out, I see the | average person react with discomfort and annoyance. After all, | they were just minding their own business: such is the American | dream. | | The third place is dead, not only in the physical (by not | existing as a place), but also in the ethereal (by not existing | in our social expectations). Even if we want it, we are missing | the narrative: the story: the blueprint: detailing how and where | it could exist in our lives. That alone is the very reason we so | desperately need it. | opportune wrote: | I recommend a visit to Cuba if you can. Parks are used | extensively as a third place there. So I think that this is | cultural as much as it is anything to do with parks. Cuba and | the US have a lot of differences, of course (maybe you could | attribute this to the comparatively much poorer state of | housing) but nothing is stopping us from doing this per se. | | You may also be surprised how central of a third place are some | cafes in southern Europe: in rural Spanish, Greek, Italian | villages they'll often have a contingent of pensioners regulars | chatting throughout the day. Again, this could just as well | happen in the US - even if you argue car culture or whatever, | it could happen in NYC or SF, but doesn't really. | | I think actually, we are culturally averse to third places now. | There used to be more in the US (saloons were huge before | prohibition). I question the extent to which we "need" it given | that we've gradually shifted towards not having them. Maybe | it's because those needs are met elsewhere. You could argue | things like the workplace (as reimagined by tech companies and | startups) or Internet are a third place for example | yobbo wrote: | In regions with depopulation there are disused buildings, | unoccupied school rooms, and even churches in some cases. This is | _not_ a thing in big cities, and there are no facilities freely | available to anyone. | | It is possible to get subsidised rooms/studios through "study | circles" for music or theatre (for example), under certain | conditions for accountability. | | "Folk high school" is equivalent to community college. | vintermann wrote: | > "Folk high school" is equivalent to community college. | | I thought a community college was just a college/university | that aimed to serve the local community and its needs, rather | than having terribly high research ambitions? | | If so, it's completely different from folk high schools (in | Norway, at least). They have no grades and no exams, and they | serve 18-19 year olds from _elsewhere_ than their local | community. It 's very rare to go to your own community's folk | high school. Unlike all other education levels in Norway, folk | high schools are boarding schools by default. | | Also, because they struggle somewhat with popularity, they're | quite focused on hobby or "useless" skills, from art to horse | sports. There's even some esports offerings in recent years. | They need to draw students in, and for most students with a | traditional goal in mind such as becoming a nurse or an | accountant, they would be a poor investment of a year, so they | can't really offer very "practical" courses. | | Young people go there to live their dream career for a while, | get some more time to figure out what they can actually do as a | career, and "make friends for life", a phrase you'll find a lot | in folk high school promotional material. It's pretty much code | for "find a serious boyfriend/girlfriend". Rare for arenas | where that's the goal, they're typically rather gender | balanced, or even with women slightly overrepresented. | phreack wrote: | > This is not a thing in big cities, and there are no | facilities freely available to anyone. | | Yeah, right after reading this I started thinking about how to | start such a circle in my area, and realized it's not possible | because a key factor is a free space young people can adopt and | re-imagine. In a densely populated city this is immensely hard | to happen spontaneously, any such space will most likely be | quickly occupied by homeless people, which feels more urgent | than education and exploration. | graycat wrote: | _Education_? Been there, done that, a lot of it, a bit too much, | really. So, I 'll comment: | | The idea of the study groups getting the participants polished on | the _social_ aspects of life sounds good. | | For STEM, let's see: First, here at Hacker News, what fraction of | the readers got good at writing code in C/C++ before they had any | formal classroom instruction from an established education | system, high school, college, etc.? I anticipate, a big fraction. | | Lesson: In learning C/C++, and a lot of closely related topics, | say, quick sort, maybe matrix inversion, the beginnings of using | relational data base as "the key, the whole key, nothing but the | key", some of the details of virtual memory as Zuck spouted out | as he walked out of class in the movie _The Social Network_ , | commonly that learning has been done by people mostly on their | own. | | Next, a college prof has to keep up and hopefully push ahead, but | there's essentially no _formal education_ classroom instruction | for doing that. So, the prof has to do that on his (her, here and | below) own. | | Lesson: Self teaching is fundamental right to the top of the | education system. Soooo, self teaching is not incidental, | strange, etc. | | For graduate study in the STEM fields, been there, done that. | Fact of life: The university, department, profs, etc. can provide | a lot of guidance and direction, often crucial since otherwise a | student might waste time wandering in poor directions, but, | bluntly, the student needs lots of hours of self study outside of | class. | | Lesson: Soooo, even in a program in formal education, a lot of | self teaching is crucial. | | Broadly in US society, there is a lot of self learning: E.g., a | good chef who has a terrific lasagna, pizza, Italian rum cake, | coconut cream pie, ..., likely learned how to do that mostly on | their own or, say, from an employer who learned it on their own, | likely not from some formal classroom education. Same for lots of | jobs -- auto repair, plumbing, roofing, brick laying, many | aspects of farming, parenting, .... | | Lesson: Self teaching is crucial in our whole society, and a lot | of people are good at it. | dragoncrab wrote: | Is there anything similar in other European countries as well? | somewhereoutth wrote: | In Portugal there are Cultural Associations, which have a | certain legal standing with associated formalities. Sometimes | they even have premises they run for meetings etc. They tend to | be formed according to particular interests, if I understand | correctly. Hopefully someone from Portugal can elaborate on | this. | 2000UltraDeluxe wrote: | The other Nordic countries have similar movements. I assume | there are others too. | gostsamo wrote: | There are the chitalishte institution in Bulgaria which are | centers for education, culture and furthering national movement | in the very beginning. Couldn't find a good source in english. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitalishte | jks wrote: | In Finland there are "kansanopisto" that are a little like the | Swedish ones described in the article but with less resources. | I spent my final year of upper secondary school at one of them | (https://www.paivola.fi) which hosts a math enrichment | programme, but that one is quite unique. | | That particular institute got started in the late 1800s to | educate farmers with an ideology similar to the Swedish system | of the article, but by the 1990s it had mostly language | courses. (Didn't get into university? Come study Spanish for a | gap year, we'll make a trip to Spain at the end.) Currently in | addition to the math programme they seem to teach several | subjects with a kind of unofficial arrangement with | universities. (Didn't make it to law school/psychology/teacher | school? Come study exactly that for a year to improve your | chances in the next admissions round, with some credit probably | accepted toward your eventual university degree.) | vidarh wrote: | Folkeuniversitetet ("people's university"; previously | Friundervisningen - free education/free learning) and | folkehoyskoler ("folk/people's high schools") in Norway. | | I got my first exposure in computing in part because my dad | agreed to teach computers for | Folkeuniversitetet/Friundervisningen in the early 80's, but he | needed to borrow one to learn to use it first... | | In Norway it sprung out of students in the 1860's who wanted to | make education more broadly available (Henrik Ibsen was one of | the founding students, as was Bjornstjerne Bjorson, perhaps | less known outside Norway but the first Norwegian Nobel | laureate in literature) | xpe wrote: | What can we read to get a fair overview of Swedish culture with | regards to intellectual curiousity, education, conformism (I've | seen this claimed but have no firsthand experience), and so on? | | Here is one starting point: "Small Facts and Large Issues: The | Anthropology of Contemporary Scandinavian Society" : | https://www.jstor.org/stable/2155886 ... I haven't read it yet. I | like the anthropological point of view though. | wahnfrieden wrote: | https://www.jstor.org/stable/3791704 | xpe wrote: | How is "Racism and Support of Free-Market Capitalism: A | Cross-Cultural Analysis" relevant to my question? I didn't | ask about economic systems in particular. Is there something | in there about sociological perspectives? | xpe wrote: | One anecdote. One person I trust view most Swedes as much more | open minded than most Americans. | somewhereoutth wrote: | Excellent article, and a very interesting look into how a society | may accelerate its development. | | Perhaps maker spaces are born of a similar ethos, though of | course very stem driven. | | Unfortunately it seems that as formal education has become more | institutionalised and more necessary as a marker for | employability, doing anything remotely 'bookish' in your free | time has become almost definitively 'uncool'. A shame. | jacquesm wrote: | > doing anything remotely 'bookish' in your free time has | become almost definitively 'uncool' | | This is a very serious problem and I can see this every day | with my kids. They have so much peer pressure on them that they | find it very hard to do those things that they would like to do | because it makes them 'uncool'. The result is that they have a | part of their life that they keep away from their school mates. | Supporting them in their endeavors helps them but it isn't | enough to fully compensate for the desire to belong and have | approval from their peers. | yobbo wrote: | > Perhaps maker spaces are born of a similar ethos | | There are strains of ideas and phenomena here that are probably | not decipherable to outsiders. Applying for subsidies for | "study circles" would be considered as abuse of the system or | even fraudulent in some circles. In other circles, receiving | any subsidy from the government is considered justified and | right by default. | | Its effect on economic development is probably negligible (but | how would you determine that?). It can rather be viewed as one | of many tolerated ways of receiving money in exchange for the | effort of doing the paperwork. | | It's a phenomenon that looks different to different people. | rhn_mk1 wrote: | It sounds like you're comparing the situation outlined in the | article to somewhere you're familiar with when you say | 'bookish' is 'uncool'. Where is that? | somewhereoutth wrote: | Gen X Anglosphere | embedded_hiker wrote: | And long before Gen X. | zdragnar wrote: | A friend of mine from college said he was accused of "acting | white" for trying to get good grades in school when he was | younger. I forget if it was Detroit or Minneapolis, but | either would be likely. Minnesota has (or at least had) the | US's largest gap between racial achievement in education. | | More broadly speaking, even when I was growing up being a | "nerd" (what the kids would say instead of bookish) was | always uncool. It's practically a trope in American media | since we had media as such. Smart, brainy kids are juxtaposed | against the "cool" jocks and popular crowd. | heywhatupboys wrote: | > doing anything remotely 'bookish' in your free time has | become almost definitively 'uncool' | | teaching kids work-life balance seems like a great idea | bsder wrote: | > Perhaps maker spaces are born of a similar ethos, though of | course very stem driven. | | Huh? Most makerspaces are not at _all_ STEM driven. | | In the US, most makerspaces are driven by woodworking. | Metalworking and 3D printing generally take up the next tier in | a makerspace of usage. Electronics and STEM stuff is generally | the bottom of utilization, sadly. | | It's simply really hard to come up with good electronics | projects that don't also need a pretty solid software | background nowadays. That's just really a step too far for most | people. | | By contrast, there are lots of projects that a couple of hours | in a woodshop makes something interesting and semi-useful. | somewhereoutth wrote: | Anytime you try to make a 3D thing (and many 2D things) you | are doing STEM. I feel the distinction between 'blue collar' | e.g. woodworking and 'white collar' technology, and indeed | 'purple collar' art & design, to be unhelpful - unless of | course to segregate out the 'bookish'! | bsder wrote: | A carpenter, woodworker, roofer, plumber, welder, etc. | would be kind of surprised with your definition of STEM, | but, okay. | | If that's your definition, you do you. | tqi wrote: | > A good educational system should have three purposes: it should | provide all who want to learn with access to available resources | at any time in their lives; empower all who want to share what | they know to find those who want to learn it from them; and, | finally, furnish all who want to present an issue to the public | with the opportunity to make their challenge known. | | I wonder if this quote is still something we believe is correct. | Implied here is that "learning" and "sharing what they know" are | unqualified good. But I think there is lots of that on the | internet these days... much of it bad. But then who gets to | decide what is or isn't the right kind of learning in this model? | bsder wrote: | > Implied here is that "learning" and "sharing what they know" | are unqualified good. But I think there is lots of that on the | internet these days... much of it bad. | | There is a vast difference between "On the Internet" and "In | person". | | "In person" means that your idea has to have enough critical | mass in a local area to catch on. If your idea only appeals to | 0.01% of people, you're just not going to come in contact with | another like-minded individual in your local area. This | _greatly_ limits the damage that fringe beliefs can do. On the | other hand, if _you_ are the person with the minority belief or | interest, you 're isolated. | | "On the Internet" there is no such geographic limiter. So, if | _you_ are the one in the minority, you can find kindred | spirits. Unfortunately, _very_ fringe people can find like | minded individuals and congregate. | | It would be very nice if we could harness the positives of both | while minimizing the negatives. I'm not sure that's possible, | though. | argiopetech wrote: | Those "who want to learn it from them" must make the | assessment. Any less is censorship of the teacher, which, in my | mind, is an unqualified evil. | | This is not to say that the material learnt/shared is an | unqualified good. The ability of each individual to freely | exchange that knowledge and assess it in their context is. | tqi wrote: | > Any less is censorship of the teacher, which, in my mind, | is an unqualified evil. | | I'm not sure if I agree. I understand the intent is that | individuals should in turn be able reject those teachings in | their context, but that feels disconnected from the reality | of our society. Ultimately I think it comes down to whether | you think policies should be made based on intent or | outcomes. If, for example, WhatsApp knows that individuals | "teaching" about the dangers posed by an ethnic minority, and | that those teachings would result in genocide regardless of | how much helper text / warning flags you place around the | content, I think it would be a moral imperative for them to | remove that content. | | Of course, who gets to make that decision and how you measure | outcomes (what is worse, and for whom?) is a whole can of | worms, so I definitely have reservations, but ultimately I | believe that a) some limits are necessary, b) there can be | genuine disagreement on where that line should be drawn and | c) there is no such thing as an unqualified evil or good. | low_tech_love wrote: | But then how would you separate, for example, teaching from | preaching? | gameman144 wrote: | I'd argue preaching _is_ (or rather, ought to be) teaching, | so no need to separate them. | | Totally fine to restrict subjects that can be taught in | schools though, including religion and the like. | DistractionRect wrote: | I think there's an implication of central curation that's done | by the education system. That would be the difference from the | internet. The question of who is qualified to run the system, | is not easy answer. Consider academia and publishing to | journals. On paper that's the embodiment of the quote. It's | been corrupted by money, and perturbed by mandatory publishing. | In order to maintain grants, publish X times a year, etc | there's plenty of p hacking, unreproducible papers, and | straight up fraudulent papers in circulation. | | As fas our belief in the quote, it's clear there exists a | subset of the population that doesn't believe this quote to be | correct. We're seeing a renaissance of anti-intellectualism, | where people reject basic science; brag about not reading | books; segregate themselves into their own echo chambers; | instead of facts informing beliefs, beliefs inform "facts." | | A basic example is that diseases we've all but eradicated are | seeing a resurgence thanks to trading vaccination for | pox/covid/measles/etc parties. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-02-26 23:00 UTC)