[HN Gopher] The Camera-Shy Hoodie ___________________________________________________________________ The Camera-Shy Hoodie Author : alwaysbeconsing Score : 450 points Date : 2023-02-27 16:16 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.macpierce.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.macpierce.com) | qwertox wrote: | I wonder if such strong IR light is capable of harming the eye, | even if we're unable to see it. | | High power LEDs in the visible spectrum are terribly bright, and | when I accidentally get them shined into the eye, it really feels | concerning if any harm has been done. | fitzroy wrote: | Aren't traditional (non-LED) lightbulbs that get hot much | higher in the IR spectrum since they're dissipating most of | their energy as heat? | Zak wrote: | Bright visible light causes the pupil to constrict and | triggers an instinct to squint, blink, or look away. IR alone | does not. | snerbles wrote: | Near-IR aiming lasers (such as the AN/PEQ-2 and AN/PAQ-4) can | indeed cause permanent damage, among USAF CATM armorers there | was a rumor of at least one idiot burning his retina trying to | "see" the beam directly. | spcebar wrote: | "Why do my eyes feel spicy?" | barelyauser wrote: | We can stare at a burning campfire and barely get damaged. Long | term exposure is another thing. The emitter power would have to | be insanely high, or some kind of laser. | drdaeman wrote: | Yes, but a campfire emits a lot of visible light, so our eyes | adjust accordingly. While we're not cats with their amazing | pupil dilation, we have some too. If one wears an IR-shiny | hood, they may be at higher risk in the low-light conditions, | if their eyes adjust to the dark, brain not realizing they're | flooded with IR. | barelyauser wrote: | Retinal damage is not the only kind of damage the eye can | be subjected to. The cornea has no blood flow to cool | itself and is fully exposed to incoming radiation. | engineer_22 wrote: | Good question, this guy seems to have studied this question: | | https://medium.com/@alex.kilpatrick/ir-illumination-and-eye-... | | He concludes: | | _" If you buy the largest IR floodlight available on Amazon | and you stare at it 200 mm (~7") from your face for more than | 1000 seconds (~ 16 minutes) there is a possibility you might | damage your cornea. So don't do that. And I doubt anyone would | do that because these things get pretty hot at that distance."_ | [deleted] | [deleted] | realworldperson wrote: | [dead] | NikolaNovak wrote: | Does this only work at night? | | During daytime, I assume cameras use visible ambient light | (that's at least how my baby monitor works fwiw :-). And of | course any regular camera e.g. Dslr I assume wouldn't care much? | pluc wrote: | There's a bunch more adversarial fashion over at... | adversarialfashion.com | | https://adversarialfashion.com/ | Someone1234 wrote: | I'm surprised nobody is producing swag with the EURion | constellation[0] on it. You'd be surprised how many random | image processing libraries it breaks. | | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation | myself248 wrote: | I've been wondering this for years too. Does it work if it's | slightly distorted, as on a garment, or not viewed face-on? | | I guess it's time to haul out the t-shirt press... | popcalc wrote: | https://output.jsbin.com/nikoxod/26/ | | Just need to head over to redbubble now. | TechBro8615 wrote: | Also see: https://www.reflectacles.com/ | MonkeyMalarky wrote: | Just don't leave any reviews or buy it with your own credit | card, otherwise your _unique_ and cool cyberpunk fashion will | lead right back to you: | | https://www.vice.com/en/article/bv8j8w/a-tattoo-and-an-etsy-... | TechBro8615 wrote: | Also, don't burn cop cars if you can avoid it. | selectodude wrote: | Or be a foreigner here using an ESTA. Generally committing | crimes _after_ giving the government every little piece of | information about you is a bad idea. | dylan604 wrote: | These seem much less functional and more of a fashion | statement. Defeating ALPR readers when you're not a car seems | bizarre. Where the OP is actually actively protecting one's | identity from being followed. | | So even though the name says adversarial, how is it actually | being adversarial? | blobbers wrote: | Great, so now when the cops get aggressive with you there will be | an IR LED blurring any evidence you might have had? >_> | | It's 2023 pandemic if you want to be anonymous wear a mask. | moremetadata wrote: | IF you submit a UK GDPR DSAR or equivalent in your own country, | the cops will deliberately not hand over the data, including | Axiom bodycam footage, under the pretence its all used for law | enforcement purposes, which the legislation lets them do. I | know, I've tried. I've even been told its up to the individual | officer whether they want to submit their bodycam footage, | which is a great way for the police to cover up crimes, | considering they already have the option to switch on the | recording, and these bodycams have a 30sec buffer which gets | included when they enable recording. Police cars also have | built in AV recording to monitor what goes on inside a police | car. | | You would be amazed at how criminal the Police in the UK really | are, they do a good job of PR on social media and the press | doing them favours to get leads on stories. | | You are better off having your own stealth AV devices recording | your every move and sound 24/7, built into jewellery, head | torches, clothing, dash cams for vehicles, and smart phones | recording all the time, so you dont even have to bother taking | a photo or video, just point and record. And where possible | have it streamed live back to your servers with a dead man's | switch. | | Its the only way to combat the intelligent entity's who seek to | dominate. | | You are living through a technological arms race. | orthoxerox wrote: | > You are better off having your own stealth AV devices | recording your every move and sound 24/7, | | Not when owning a stealth A/V device is a criminal offense | moremetadata wrote: | Since when? Links to the legislation? | | In the meantime, I'll carrying on breaking the law to carry | on protecting myself, building up my portfolio of | criminals! | LegitShady wrote: | sure, but this hoodie works as effectively as the wyze | cameras that make my own surveillance around my home. | moremetadata wrote: | > the wyze cameras that make my own surveillance around my | home | | They are too obvious, if you have a brick property, put a | few bee/insect bricks at different heights into the walls | and then drill through from the inside of the property and | put a slim line camera like the AXIS P12 Modular Camera | Series in one of the larger bee/insect holes. Doesnt matter | then if the individual has their face facing the ground, | which is lot of the time, you'll still get a good image of | their face. | | You can find even cheaper cam's if you search | aliexpress.com. | johnmaguire wrote: | Hah, I had a different thought: How long until every Ring/Nest | doorbell video looks like this? | | It does seem to only work against IR cameras though - | presumably brightly lit scenes won't struggle. | ShuffleBoard wrote: | Obligatory Key & Peele prior art reference: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztRSm_SJP58 | patja wrote: | Also was a key plot device in Luther season 5 | RicoElectrico wrote: | There's always a relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1105/ | gfd wrote: | I remember my old android phone would pick up IR as a purpleish | color: https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main- | qimg-d8d68a82c1ec4b4975b8e... | | I wonder if it's possible to make it bright enough to blind | regular (non IR filtered) cameras too? | SnooSux wrote: | I work with IR sensors at work and modern smartphones pick up | NIR frequencies as well. It's picked up by the red channel so | combining that with the blue is probably what's making the | purple color. | | My guess would be that something bright enough to wash out the | red channel would still leave the blue and green intact. So | there should be enough information that the image is degraded | but not necessarily blinded. | | But I could be wrong, depending on how independently the color | sensors and processing work. | tjkrusinski wrote: | No, older smart phone cameras lacked IR filters because the IR | filter didn't only block IR light, but also a distribution of | wavelengths around IR. Filtering out IR means many of the | visible light wavelengths are attenuated as well, decreasing | the amount of light arriving at the sensor. | | With better noise reduction algorithms, more sensitive sensors | and lower noise sensors, IR filters are now almost always used | in smart phone cameras. | jandrese wrote: | Also, without an IR filter those cameras could partially see | through light clothing in bright conditions. This of course | formed a creepy online community and enough backlash that the | manufacturers decided to include IR filters for all future | products. | major505 wrote: | There's a scene in Baby Driver where they go rob a mail agency, | and use google with IR leds to confuse the local cameras. | 10g1k wrote: | Or buy a $0.95 mask. | fortran77 wrote: | > As the hoodie uses IR light, it's effects are imperceptible by | human eyes when activated, only effecting IR sensitive equipment | | Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it can't hurt you. If | it's it's not directed away from your eyes, a bright IR light an | inch away from your eye can cause harm. | | https://ehs.lbl.gov/resource/documents/radiation-protection/... | AbusiveHNAdmin wrote: | [dead] | interweb wrote: | See also Becca Ricks https://beccaricks.space/Unidentified-Halo | fsckboy wrote: | Freud taught us an enduring lesson, pay attention to to the words | we use, they tell us what we are thinking. | | > _Hoodie is a DIY adversarial garment_ | | who wants to wear an adversarial garment? adversarial people. | | man, life is so much better when you don't approach it | adversarially. most people are happy to see your face, and you | can see it on theirs. | noirbot wrote: | How many people who are happy to see your face are watching you | on surveillance cameras? It's not like this hides your face | from a human, and you can always put the hood down if you're at | your friend's house or somewhere else you trust. | fsckboy wrote: | you can't skulk through a crowd worrying about surveillance | cameras without... worrying. I'm saying that selecting the | word adversarial to describe this garment is not a | coincidence, it's an attitude, and I'm linking it to the | emotional life of people who would be interested in the | garment. | | worrying is stressful anxiety that your friends (who can see | your face) can't completely erase for you. adversarial | essentially means "looking for anxiety". I'm saying step | back, it's not the only way to live. | | downvoting btw is also adversarial so have at it, you'll feel | better... not :) | noirbot wrote: | Or it's something people enjoy as a thought experiment? I | work adjacent to computer security industries and have | always found the sort of cat-and-mouse of circumventing | various detection and security mechanisms to be engaging | and interesting. | | There's certainly people who are doing it out of anxiety, | either intentionally or because of their own history or | mental issues. For them, it may not be easy or possible to | just decide to live another way. Either there actually is | something they need to be adversarial towards or they're | well aware that it's not necessarily rational, but it's not | any easier for them to stop than it is for a depressed | person to "just be happy". | LoganDark wrote: | > downvoting btw is also adversarial so have at it, you'll | feel better... not :) | | lmao? | jehb wrote: | > who wants to wear an adversarial garment? adversarial people. | | I disagree. | | Who wants to wear an adversarial garment? People stuck caught | under the spying eyes of adversarial governments and | adversarial surveillance capitalism companies. | 98codes wrote: | The strobing seems to defeat the effect -- you only need one good | frame with a face showing to defeat the hoodie, and this seemed | slow enough that I could pick up the face of the demo guy with my | own eyes in realtime. | jwong_ wrote: | Seems like the strobing is intended to defeat the autoexposure | compensation. Otherwise the camera might see the brightlight | and reduce exposure to compensate. Concentrating the lighting | on the face only and staying far away from cameras might help | that without requiring the strobe. | wstuartcl wrote: | The leds are placed on the chest -- seems like a miss to not | place them also around the hoodie near the face. I would | suspect even without strobing the over saturation would work | should those leds be surrounding the face. | | All of that said, wearing something like this out (unless it | becomes super commonplace lol) just screams watch me closely | (and easily follow me back to some known origin). | tablespoon wrote: | > The leds are placed on the chest -- seems like a miss to | not place them also around the hoodie near the face. | | Based on the documentation, all that would probably do is | allow the effect to work at slightly closer distances. | tablespoon wrote: | > The leds are placed on the chest -- seems like a miss to | not place them also around the hoodie near the face. | | Based on the documentation, all that would probably do is | allow the effect to work at slightly closer distances: | | > In addition, the LEDs need to be a minimum distance from | the camera to be effective, as the cone of light from them | needs to be wide enough to overlap with the cameras view of | the wearers head. In practice, this is about 12ft (~3m). | | Putting them on the chest would help with ergonomics. It | would work even if you have the hood off and the LEDs would | be more consistently positioned. | bsenftner wrote: | FR developer here: that strobing is very smart, as the | mechanical mechanism starts to adjust the strobe generates | another adjustment. If the strobing is at a random interval, | it becomes difficult to impossible to compensate in software. | FR does not work without face images. | amelius wrote: | All the camera would have to do is ignore the brightest | parts of the image, then correct the ExposureTime based on | that image. | dylan604 wrote: | I would think randomizing the strobing would be effective | as well. All of this defeating of auto exposure adjustments | makes me think back to the days of Macrovision and how | easily it could be defeated as it was not randomized at | all. Then again, it was also easily just stripped out of | the signal. | sacrosancty wrote: | With random timing, you're more likely to get one period | that's long enough for the auto-exposure to correct it | and see the face. Autoexposure takes time because it has | to use a feedback loop to search for the correct | exposure, so if the brightness changes fast enough, it | can't keep up. | dylan604 wrote: | you set a maximum on period so that doesn't happen. if | you develop something with a known pattern, that can be | programed in to be countered. hence my example of | Macrovision. randomizing the values means it is much | harder to counter. | nkozyra wrote: | That's what they say, but how much autofocusing is actually | happening? In the example video the scene is mostly in focus. | My guess is it actually messes with the exposure rather than | focus. | anonu wrote: | Agreed that was not a good demo. I assumed that segment was not | taken with a cheap webcam/security camera - which is why the | auto-exposure worked a lot faster. | | At a greater distance with lower MP security cameras, this | thing might still work. | mc32 wrote: | Wouldn't IR filters defeat this once it becomes an issue? You can | just glue them on the front of the lens or it can be on the | sensor though the latter requires a new sensor. | qwertox wrote: | They probably would, but in this case it's the camera's IR | lights which enable the capability to see at night. | AntonyGarand wrote: | Cameras frequently use IR as a night vision light frequency, so | adding an IR filter also disables night vision assuming they | use this frequency. | ThrowawayTestr wrote: | Is having this much IR light right by your face dangerous? | frankus wrote: | If the camera has its own co-located IR source, you can just use | a normal retro-reflective hoodie like this one | https://www.amazon.com/TR-Super-Bright-Reflective-Jacket/dp/... | (also great for walking/biking at night). | | In a dark area it completely obscures your face | (https://twitter.com/frankus/status/1499257277894705155), and you | have plausible deniability in terms of wearing it specifically | for defeating cameras. | chrononaut wrote: | Wow, for a minute I thought someone did a low effort | superimposition of a logo of the jacket or something into the | image. Took me a moment to work out that scene. | dmix wrote: | > It's nice and subdued in a sort of futuristic way until you | shine a light on it, at which point it's almost painfully | reflective. | | Is there any downside to these? Such as distracting cars or | blinding other cyclists? | natebc wrote: | The reflections from these jackets are not dazzling so much | as ... broad spectrum? Basically they just look like a bright | white sheet. Very hard to miss, hopefully. | onlyrealcuzzo wrote: | Isn't that the point? | | To distract cars - to draw attention to you - so they don't | not see you riding / running / walking on the side of the | road and run you over? | thaumaturgy wrote: | Drivers may develop target fixation and inadvertently steer | towards something they want to avoid. It's thought to be | one of the reasons that so many cars manage to nail light | poles and trees dead-center. | sacrosancty wrote: | When they've already lost most control and are panicking, | yes. But it's completely normal for cyclists to wear | reflective clothing to make themselves visible. Even cars | have retroflectors on their taillights for this purpose. | No road user is trying to hide in the dark in the hopes | that drivers won't get fixated on them! | xoa wrote: | > _Is there any downside to these? Such as distracting cars | or blinding other cyclists?_ | | One speculative possible downside: others have answered the | human aspect, but in the context of security/privacy OP is | being perhaps a little blase with "plausible deniability", or | at least it may vary by region? I can see why such a jacket | could be useful and why a cyclist or jogger or the like would | wear one, same as other visibility enhancing gear. But at the | same time I've never ever seen such a thing anywhere in our | state. And on camera it apparently looks like a neon sign. | Sure, that obscures your face, but at the same time it will | instantly draw the attention of any human security watching | or potentially of AI if it's been tasked to look for such | outliers. If it caught on and a quarter or half or whatever | people were wearing such things at night then that wouldn't | matter again, but anything that makes one "unique" in a | crowd, regardless of what it is, represents signal. If | someone is the only one (or one of only a couple) wearing | something like that then even without their face they could | still be tracked uniquely just by that. And with advances in | later generation biometrics like gait analysis wearing such a | thing might not only fail to stop individualized | identification, but also leak information in terms of "this | person is trying to hide their identity" which might | correlate to groups in ways hard to predict. | | Of course again, that could be taken as an argument to try to | make all this sort of thing more of a trend, but there is a | first-mover calculation to make maybe depending on what | someone is trying to accomplish. If one just wants to help | hide others or mess around with camera tracking for the fun | of it though that'd be no problem. It's the same kind of | dilemma as all sorts of other "blend with the crowd" stuff, | like Tor say. If everyone ran an onion router (ignoring | current gen scaling issues) then there'd be zero signal from | doing so, the protection offered would be strongest, and also | the vast majority of traffic would be completely boring and | legitimate because so would almost all the users. It'd be | much harder to crack down on as well. If only a few people | run it and specifically do so to conduct covert activity, | well the mere act of doing so then potentially leaks a bit. | And both sides are subject to reinforcing effects, if | "everyone does it" and "it's normal" and "almost entirely | legit" then that makes it easy for anyone new to join, | constantly reinforcing the network. Conversely if it's | something strange with whiffs of criminality, then many won't | which in turn reinforces it being strange and those using it | maybe having something suspicious going on. Bootstrapping | that can be a tough nut. | | Anyway just sort of thinking out loud so to speak. For | cameras I'm leaning towards ultimately some sort of legal | response being needed, and that individuals trying to evade | it is probably a losing battle. | NotACop182 wrote: | My guess Tesla will run you over. No for real what effects | will this have on automated systems | technofiend wrote: | The idea of a Tesla self-driving system getting target | fixation and driving towards the thing it should avoid is | hilarious to me. And it also makes me wonder how likely | that is to actually happen. Is the model weight of "shiny, | bright reflective thing in IR spectrum" for "probably a | road reflector, avoid" higher than "probably some water in | the road, so that must be where the road is"? (Obviously | totally made up examples). | cj wrote: | > target fixation and driving towards the thing it should | avoid is hilarious to me. And it also makes me wonder how | likely that is to actually happen | | Not sure why this is hilarious to you. | | Teslas have literally driven straight into tractor | trailers sitting in a parking lot, killing the | passengers. | | https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/tesla-crash-nhtsa-feds- | prob... | | This tech is over hyped and shouldn't be trusted. | Definitely not hilarious to the victims. | frankus wrote: | Just doing the physics in my head, I think it's slightly less | bright than the light source shining on it viewed from the | same distance. | | So probably no more distracting to the person with the light | than the light is to the person wearing the hoodie. | | In any case it's a similar material as road signs that are a | similar size. | knodi123 wrote: | > In any case it's a similar material as road signs that | are a similar size. | | Exactly. If anything, for this scenario, it would increase | your visibility in a good way! | petters wrote: | Significantly less bright. | Fricken wrote: | Off camera it's just a generic, anonymous hoody, but on camera it | is readily identified as the unique and unmistakeable camera shy | hoody! | ct0 wrote: | It really just needs to be a necklace. | PaulDavisThe1st wrote: | I was thinking of something more like ... uh ... a crown of | thorns. | brianwawok wrote: | Imagine you are working for a three letter agency scanning a | crowd. | | 999/1000 people look similar. One is just a glowing sun of | light. | | Which one do you go take to the backroom? | knodi123 wrote: | so it hurts if the opposition is live-scanning a crowd, and | it helps in all other cases, including targeted advertising / | facial recognition stuff. | colinsane wrote: | you don't have to commit a crime to wear this. you can wear | it as a statement, in which case attracting that kind of | attention so that you can say -- ideally to someone with | authority -- "i don't think it's right to surveil the public | like this" is arguably some measure of success. | zht wrote: | until you get put on a list and you get SSSSed every time | you fly | __MatrixMan__ wrote: | Given that the cops have never needed much of a reason to | illegally beat people up, I admire anyone who cares about | making that statement so much that they're willing to risk | it. | cultureswitch wrote: | Indeed, this is only really useful if the cameras aren't | actively being monitored. If you're the odd one out wearing | this at a protest, you might be specifically targeted. | danjoredd wrote: | Thats assuming they can figure out which one is wearing the | hoodie. With enough evidence I can see them going for a guy | with that, but they would have to not only make the | decision to specifically target you, but to figure out | which one of the hoodies moving around is causing the issue | KMnO4 wrote: | If this is the USA, then I'm guessing you would take the | minority? | Brian_K_White wrote: | The shiny decoy. | [deleted] | amelius wrote: | The point of this webpage is that more people should be | wearing it. | dymk wrote: | They won't, and so it's not very useful | TechBro8615 wrote: | Protest organizers should hand out these hoodies, or | someone should sell them to protestors through some kind of | pop-up shop ambassador program where an affiliate at each | protest sells the apparel on consignment. | ilyt wrote: | Only really work at night tho. | justinator wrote: | IR Cameras are used in daytime, too. | tablespoon wrote: | > IR Cameras are used in daytime, too. | | The documentation lists its limitations, which include | daylight: | | > The Camera Shy Hoodie is not an end-all-be-all for | hiding your identity. It's good for one thing, blowing | out the view of night vision (IR) cameras in low light | environments. It's not effective in sunlight, most indoor | lighting, or against conventional cameras. In fact, you | will draw attention to yourself if you wear this in a | context in which the security cameras are actively | monitored. In the view of an IR camera, it'll look as if | you're flashing a light directly at the lens. In | addition, the LEDs need to be a minimum distance from the | camera to be effective, as the cone of light from them | needs to be wide enough to overlap with the cameras view | of the wearers head. In practice, this is about 12ft | (~3m). | | The idea is designed to exploit limitations with the | camera's auto-exposure, and I presume a requirement to do | that is to strobe a light that outshines the ambient | light by n times. That works at night because there's so | little ambient light, during the day you'd have to | outshine the sun (and the sun is _really_ bright). | tablespoon wrote: | > Protest organizers should hand out these hoodies, or | someone should sell them to protestors... | | In that particular case, it wold make _far_ more sense to | hand out a cost-reduced version that people could wear | over their own clothes. | | I'm thinking of something with the LEDs mounted in a | plastic ring like these | (https://www.glowuniverse.com/20-inch-glow-stick- | necklaces-8-...), with a battery box/controller, and | maybe some kind of protest messaged taped to it. | moremetadata wrote: | Some people bring their own masks [1] which work 24/7 in | all conditions! | | For protests, the best form of flattery is to be | imitated, so this website [2] and others, lets you pay | your respects and flatter the police. | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_mask | | [2] https://havengear.com/ | EntrePrescott wrote: | Depending on where you live, wearing a mask (as in: face | covering, not the COVID masks) at a public protest or | demonstration can be a punishable offense forbidden by | law... and I'm not talking about autocratic states but | many civilized and relatively liberal Western countries, | cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_law | Foxo wrote: | It is honestly just a terrible idea - you are essentially | placing a target on yourself, no matter how you use it. | Simply scanning a crowd of people with a camera, you are | identifying people protesting from other civilians, in | real-time and no cost. If you watched a crowd from above, | over time you could find all sorts of patterns. In some | countries, that could mean your whole family disappears. | | The only groups I see benefitting from this are the | agents of oppressive regimes, and the meth heads breaking | into your storage shed at night and stealing your bike. | formerly_proven wrote: | FYI check your local laws, this is almost certainly | criminal in at least some places (e.g. in Germany it's | illegal to "wear things which may prevent or interfere | with identification of protestors" and to "carry items | meant to interfere with identification", this clearly | meets those criteria). | anigbrowl wrote: | Be realistic, 'everyone should wear this to provide cover | to people in stealth mode' is not a sensible security plan | outside of an extremely limited number of contexts. I hate | security camera theater and panopticons most than most | people, and I have exactly zero expectation of this | becoming A Thing. | [deleted] | hammock wrote: | The three letter agencies (and Walmart, and anyone who can | pay for it) have gait analysis that IDs you by how you walk, | no face needed | MengerSponge wrote: | That's why you put a pebble in your shoe. Then after enough | years you take it out like Piccolo dropping his weighted | clothes and, like Harrison Bergeron in the story, defy the | authoritarian state with dance. | yborg wrote: | This wouldn't work on Keyzer Soze. | buggythebug wrote: | hated that movie | PufPufPuf wrote: | Why do we get all the bad stuff from Little Brother, but | not the free Xboxes??? | e28eta wrote: | Because Cory Doctorow is paying attention! | macrolocal wrote: | Counter-surveillance techniques for gait analysis are | already well understood. | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNeeovY4qNU | SketchySeaBeast wrote: | If you walk without rhythm you won't attract the worm? | kapitanjakc wrote: | Bless the Maker and His water. Bless the coming and going | of Him. May His passage cleanse the world. May He keep | the world for His people. | brk wrote: | No. Gait analysis is not really a commercialized thing. | hammock wrote: | https://www.tiktok.com/@tht.slowsubi/video/71990864681349 | 153... | brk wrote: | That is not gait detection, it's basic object detection | video analytics. | e12e wrote: | Granted vr telemetry is based off of multiple cameras | tracking a single individual - still, one wonders how | hard it would be to cover a crowd with specific aim of | identification and tracking? | | https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/18/vr_telemetry_ident | ity... | brk wrote: | For all practical purposes, it is impossible in the | current state of security/surveillance video footage. | | The example described in the paper in your link is using | cameras that are setup to provide very high resolution | images of people. It would be like using full-frame | portrait images for face recognition, and then expecting | that to translate to real-world scenarios where you might | only have 20 pixels on a face, and the person is off-axis | to the camera. | | Gait detection has been discussed for a while, and may | definitely be a thing one day, but right now we are | barely at the point where pose _estimation_ is a thing in | security video. Very far from being able to do high | precision pose recognition and sampling over successive | frames to model something that would qualify as "gait". | cryptonector wrote: | The decoy. | zitterbewegung wrote: | Yea, buying a generic baseball cap is way more effective. | gwbas1c wrote: | Honestly, using this same technique in a baseball cap would | probably work wonders. | zitterbewegung wrote: | This creates an anomaly on any surveillance to the point | you will get exact time / date and you will be able to get | people that can be asked what you look like. | prpl wrote: | Obscurity through pronouncement | samstave wrote: | Ive often wondered if shirts with Epaulets equipped with LED IR | lights might provide a shroud - or a jacket /hat/helmet with an | IR array would always be a good thing. | | Imagine Epaletts-like-strips of IR/UV LEDs connecting with | magnets to any garment. | | Or low cost strips of IR LEDs glued to some neodymian magnets | which are attachable to camera shrouds. | | Else - Epoxy filled paint-ball rounds to be shot at cameras to | obscure view, or fast-dry epoxy rounds for shooting at | drones/kill-bot joints. | | If you havea BostonDynamics B.I.T.C.H. (Battle Intelligent | Tactical Canine Hunter) after you - shoot its joints with epoxy | that freezes its legs/joints/sensors) | | EDIT: - This is what every Major, Col, Gen should have in their | leafs and stars: | | >> _" Ive often wondered if shirts with Epaulets equipped with | LED IR lights might provide a shroud"_ | | Every general/col/maj should have this technology integrated in | uniform. | 0cVlTeIATBs wrote: | Provides a new meaning to "glow in the dark" | samstave wrote: | You dont wear these in combat (under certain circumstances) | (( you develop different frequencies/delivery mthods, but I | think your point is more valid. | | Yes you can thwart via, but then - you wind up just | tracking anyone with it. | | Thus you need a "rain" of micro particles in a crowd where | every single particle sets off said "anti-sensors" | | How cyberpunk do you want to get with the designs? | samstave wrote: | Its the double edged sword, the tip of the spear... | https://youtu.be/cpixhDPSl40?t=59 | SeanLuke wrote: | I don't like the idea of a hoodie blasting high power IR which | could easily get into your eyes. Perhaps it'd be better to make a | camera-shy baseball cap. | deeviant wrote: | Privacy is both important and valuable. However, during the | product demonstration, was it truly necessary to have the actor | dressed entirely in black, walking into someone's backyard? What | specific use case do they believe they are showcasing with this | demonstration? | samstave wrote: | Does it have A 100% FARADAY cage pocket to put the biometronomic | tracking device (phone) within in addition to shield that, plus | an array of UV lights to shim cams off? | brk wrote: | This would not be highly effective with most modern security | cameras. First, color low-light video is becoming more common, as | image sensor technology has progressed. When a | digital/surveillance camera is in color mode, there is an IR | filter in front of the lens to remove these wavelengths from | reaching the imager (they cause color tinge issues). | | Even for cameras that are not in color mode in low-light video, | most newer units have good dynamic range, whereas these low-power | IR LEDs would likely not be able to fully obscure a persons face | in the video. | Valgrim wrote: | Not every color camera has an IR filter, many phones and webcam | lack such a filter and can see IR very well (on my phone it has | a distinctive purple hue). | | Probably this tint is compensated for in normal light. | brk wrote: | But phones and webcams don't really seem to be the target | audience for this. | atahanacar wrote: | That distinctive purple hue is a result of the IR filter. | Filters on consumer cameras don't block 100% of IR, which is | visible as that purple color. Useful for checking if remotes | are working properly. | dTal wrote: | I don't think it's because of the IR filter. I have removed | filters from several color webcams and they always see IR | as purpley. I think it's the bayer filter - the different | color channels clearly have different sensitivities to IR. | atahanacar wrote: | Yeah, what I mean is the existence, the visibility of a | _slight_ purple hue. If the camera has no IR filter, you | don 't just see a slight purple hue on the LED itself, | but you see the light just like you'd see a visible | wavelength LED. | | I actually was obsessed with IR cameras and mods for some | reason around 10-12 years ago. I remember using developed | empty photo films to block visible light and let only IR | through after removing the IR filter. | [deleted] | dmillar wrote: | Great 2600 vibe | snshn wrote: | https://www.exer.ai/posts/gait-recognition-using-deep-learni... | m1117 wrote: | Perfect for people in san francisco robbery business! | hyperific wrote: | Also check out: | | https://petapixel.com/2016/07/01/anti-paparazzi-scarf-makes-... | | https://adam.harvey.studio/cvdazzle/ | verall wrote: | Looks like a safety concern honestly, a bunch of bright IR lights | flashing around your face isn't good for your eyes. | brk wrote: | actually no, the 850nm wavelength of common IR LEDs does not | have any adverse affect on your eyes at these power levels. | verall wrote: | Do you have a source or something? I'm not trying to doubt | you but I'm interested in learning further. I work on cameras | with IR emitter and there are many safety protocols, emitter | covers, warning signs, etc. for a simple IR camera that we | are instructed to abide by. | brk wrote: | I work with a company that makes high-power IR illuminators | and we just went through certification testing with some | units that are roughly 100x the output power of this | example and they did not pose an eye hazard. | | There is a bunch of stuff online about exposure to IR-A | wavelengths, which covers the common IR LED/illuminator | wavelengths. You certainly CAN build something which can | cause various kinds of eye damage, but it is going to be a | unit that you can literally feel the heat off of. For | practical purposes, you couldn't make a wearable battery | powered device that would be likely to cause eye damage | without the entire thing being very large and unwieldy, | assuming of course you are using standard incoherent | (eg:non-laser) source. | ldehaan wrote: | [dead] | unxdfa wrote: | Just wear a buff over your face. The batteries don't go flat on | those. | adolph wrote: | Many security CMS at this point use wifi for data. Wouldn't a | network attack with a deauthor or the like be as effective and | less eye catching? | cronix wrote: | Wouldn't the brim of the hat be the best place as it's closest to | the face, and probably more robust than within clothing? | stainablesteel wrote: | if you really wanted this to work you would wear the strobes all | over so they don't pick up arm movements or leg gait, i'd even go | as far as all of your knees, feet, elbows, shoulders, and | wrists/fingers | | if you can eliminate your movements and shape then you're ahead | of the game, otherwise you're identifiable | kabdib wrote: | How much do you have to worry about high-intensity IR damaging | eyesight? | metadat wrote: | Could these IR-LEDs be effective for movie theaters to prevent | pirate cammers from creating viable recordings? Seems like it'd | be pretty easy to implement if the studios really felt threatened | by piracy. | upsidesinclude wrote: | The movie isnt in IR | metadat wrote: | The idea is the IR lighting would be placed up front beside, | below, or above the projector screen, and interfere with the | visual recording device to ruin the captures. In my | experience digital camera sensors are sensitive to IR light | in low light environments. | | I've never tried in a movie theater :p but have noticed this | effect by pointing my phone camera at an IR television remote | and pressing some buttons. The IR LED lights up and is only | visible to the camera and not the naked eye. | | Anyhow, I'm more just curious why studios / cinemas don't | take relatively simple measures like this to prevent pirate | recordings from being created. Perhaps the IR would be too | easy to circumvent via a physical lens filter. | world2vec wrote: | Now that more and more cameras use AI models to detect and infer | things in real time, wonder if a very specific adversarial | t-shirt could render the wearer completely invisible to the AI | (not to humans looking at the CCTV monitors or the video | recordings). I think William Gibson wrote something like that in | the Zero History book, "the ugliest t-shirt in the world" or | something | pixl97 wrote: | Assuming that only one AI model is in use against you.... | thfuran wrote: | There are a bunch of papers about adversarial patterns on | shirts, glasses frames, make-up, etc. The problem is that the | more discreet it is, the more overtuned to specific models | it'll tend to be. If you really want to reliably foil face | recognition, you can walk around in a ghillie suit and camo | face mask, I suppose. | mikece wrote: | Nothing like putting giant flashing sign on yourself that says | "I'm purposely trying to avoid surveillance"... | bobsoap wrote: | > As the hoodie uses IR light, it's [sic] effects are | imperceptible by human eyes when activated, only effecting IR | sensitive equipment. | fsckboy wrote: | > _only effecting IR sensitive equipment_ | | to which it shows up as a giant flashing sign | carlosjobim wrote: | You turn it on when you don't want to be identified by | cameras. | shagie wrote: | So all those digital video cameras that are pointing around | to be used in visible light or low light conditions (like | those for retail surveillance) will now have a person with a | blinking light on them as people look at the closed circuit | feeds during regular business hours. | | https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00025283 | LAC-Tech wrote: | I mean that's what regular hoodies are to me already. It makes | you look like you're going to rob a petrol station for meth | money with a screw driver. | zht wrote: | lol what? | | you think wearing hoodies is an indication that you are ready | to commit violent theft? | gorjusborg wrote: | I also didn't realize that police officers used HN. | officeplant wrote: | Why else would all the stores around here have signs that | say "No Hoodies / No Sagging Pants" /s | | I hate society. | e12e wrote: | Welcome to Peckham? | bluedino wrote: | People wear facemasks in camera footage now, so you have to go by | their pants, belts, shoes, fingerprints.. | TechBro8615 wrote: | Gait analysis is a more surveillable fingerprint anyway, since | it can work with lower resolution cameras. Tag someone on a | high res camera with facial recognition and as long as you've | seen their gait once, you'll be able to identify them again. | jandrese wrote: | Has gait analysis been studied by people other than the ones | selling gait monitoring equipment? It smells to me like bite | mark analysis, blood splatter analysis, polygraphs, and other | "miracle" technologies/techniques that turned out to be | horsecrap. | mcbits wrote: | There are people I know that I can recognize by the way | they walk, so the idea is at least plausible. I think the | main problem is/will be from using the analysis | inappropriately. | | It's one thing to narrow down a city-sized population to a | list of 50 people known to walk with a similar gait, and | then follow up with other forms of investigation before | drawing conclusions. It's another for a cop to look at the | top match and go arrest that guy, as they've done more than | once with facial recognition. | pvarangot wrote: | I don't think gait analysis would hold itself through a trial | or be bought by a jury. Maybe to correlate different videos | of possibly different suspects? But if you are getting | regularly videoed by security cameras while circumventing | rules you are probably already wearing different shoes or | pants and that can go a long way to defeat gait analysis | algos. | devmor wrote: | It's quite literally more accurate than fingerprint or | blood splatter analysis and those send people to prison on | a daily basis - despite being little more than snake oil | techniques. | jamiek88 wrote: | Stones in our shoes, masks on our faces, strobing hoodies a | boring dystopia indeed. | MonkeyMalarky wrote: | An uncomfortable and time consuming one indeed. | TechBro8615 wrote: | Discussed previously, apparently (found via Google search | for `anti gait recognition shoes`, lol): | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18401892 | | I like the comment about the Ministry of Silly Walks. | mananaysiempre wrote: | IIRC stones in shoes as a gait recognition defence were a | plot point in Doctorow's _Little Brother_ (2008). | jamiek88 wrote: | Yeah I read that in a novel too. It's a common idea. | beardedwizard wrote: | Because spies actively use the technique and it's | routinely discussed in that setting. | zirgs wrote: | Here's a handy guide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Minis | try_of_Silly_Walks#/m... | tiagod wrote: | Gait analysis also works surprisingly well and I don't see how | to make it less effective without damaging your body | blobbers wrote: | Show me a security camera that does gait analysis and I will | pay you $1000. | kylehotchkiss wrote: | https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21528835-600-cameras | -... | | I thought I once saw on Reddit that target already uses | this in stores. I could be wrong. | kylehotchkiss wrote: | https://ggbmagazine.com/article/in-the-masked-age- | operators-... Here you go. they use them in China already. | blobbers wrote: | Ah yes, ggbmagazine. Clearly a Hikvision product you can | buy... | aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA wrote: | You're offering to pay a grand to random HN contributors to | wire one up. | dylan604 wrote: | Maybe that's the point? Maybe the person needs one of | these and $1000 is well worth it, and it just needs to be | aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA wrote: | I don't get that sense. | dylan604 wrote: | The person knows no cameras exist doing gait detection, | but wants one. They make a random comment on HN, a forum | known to be read by people that is full of people will | take an idea to completion "over a weekend", as a | challenge to get someone to do something for $1000. | That's a ridiculously low amount for something to come | into existence that would serve their need directly. | Hell, there's probably people here that would do | something like this for the clout. | blobbers wrote: | No, I know that where security cameras are positioned and | the amount of processing they currently have there will | be no gait analysis being done on the camera itself. They | have enough trouble telling one person from another | reliably. | | I was being facetious as I don't believe hackernews | readership is that enterprising. | dylan604 wrote: | I was going to make an edit with something along the | lines of "or the poster was taking the piss out of the | concept being real", but left it alone ;-) | actionfromafar wrote: | Everyone walking around in huge rigid gowns/boxes of uniform | size. | libraryatnight wrote: | The privacy concerned will walk around look like Minecraft | characters. | wstuartcl wrote: | There have been pretty huge leaps over partially obstructed | facial recognition algorithms in the last few years -- I think | state of the art is approaching no meaningful loss of match | mask vs no mask. | blobbers wrote: | Negative ghost rider. | | It is most certainly not, unless you're talking straight on | well lit training data. | wstuartcl wrote: | This is not my understanding, I have read at least 7 or 8 | papers that seem to have for various models and techniques | reduced the delta between masked and unmasked recognition | to be very similar on false positive and positive rates. | | https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/11/16/7310 https://www.scien | cedirect.com/science/article/pii/S240589632... ... | | That said I have no insight as to how many of these | techniques have been found to scale well or have started to | make it into product. It has been publicly reported that | NEC's NeoFace (a system that many police and govt use) | newer versions does indeed have occlusion (mask) | recognition operating at very high levels. | | anyways thats just my understanding as an interested | bystander -- not in the field. | snapcaster wrote: | How could this be true? I don't follow the field but so much | of the signal is being obscured it's hard to imagine how | accuracy wouldn't suffer | flangola7 wrote: | tldr machine learning is magic | | iPhone face unlock has worked while wearing a mask for a | while now. | | You know how you can identify exactly which family member | is walking in the door from across the house, and maybe | even what mood they're in? Or how little clarity you need | to identify your child or spouse on a 480p camera feed? | That's what machine learning makes possible across all | types of sensor input, picking out those little but | distinct patterns. There's really no way to be anonymous in | public once ML surveillance software is widespread. | joering2 wrote: | Our gated community spent $80,000 on upgrading their cameras | system and bought state-of-the-art 5MP surveillance cams (total | of 5 of them) that "lets you read license plates from within 100 | meters" and "does a color-in-the-night type recording". They were | sold on upgrading the whole freaking network of cables to cat 9 | for God only knows reason. And I kid you not - less than 2 months | later, we were hit and 6 cars were stolen. Apparently it doesn't | matter how fancy your camera is, if the perpetrator setup a stand | alone red laser at cost of $6 that shines directly at it... | ec109685 wrote: | Reminds me of the time I was looking at my uncle's AV setup. | Back then, you had multiple ways of delivering video between | components: RCA, Composite and a variety of others. | | The tech person had every possible path wired up with Monster | video cables. A waste of probably $500! | | For your gated community, it seems like a detection for the | video feed going haywire that calls the cops might be useful. | joering2 wrote: | That's another 80 grand, man... | LoganDark wrote: | > state-of-the-art 5MP surveillance cams | | How is that state of the art? My phone from 2015 had 21 | megapixels[0]. | | [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_X_Play#Hardware ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-02-27 23:00 UTC)