[HN Gopher] Depression, Anxiety, and Stress Spread Through Emplo... ___________________________________________________________________ Depression, Anxiety, and Stress Spread Through Employee Mobility (2022) Author : Luc Score : 101 points Date : 2023-03-05 18:13 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (journals.sagepub.com) (TXT) w3m dump (journals.sagepub.com) | thenerdhead wrote: | Is there a simplified term for this similar to Conway's Law? | | Wouldn't the mental health reflect the organization and its | communication style? | kj4211cash wrote: | This is why it's important to shame Amazon and other workplaces | with ludicrous cultures that damage their tech employees mental | health. | closeparen wrote: | Ex-Amazons are valued in Silicon Valley explicitly for the hard | edge that being socialized there is supposed to have imparted. | [deleted] | throwaway8689 wrote: | Need to do this study across a couple of economic cycles because | the last few years have been atypical for both stress and hiring | patterns. | | It reads like Denmark has linked employment and health data so I | guess they can do so for as far back as the records go. | itronitron wrote: | Yeah, I wonder if the study is GDPR compliant. | itronitron wrote: | >> unhealthy organizations (those with a high prevalence of | mental disorders) | | Holy fuck, what an irresponsible thing to research and publish. | coldtea wrote: | Sounds like one of the best things to research and publish in | order to help people. And, oh my god, this comment sounds like | "just let sleeping dogs lie"... | dschuetz wrote: | Usually this goes like "don't hire the _spreaders_ , and get | rid of those who are already employed". It is _very_ | difficult and costly to actually help people, compared to | make it not your problem - that 's capitalism for ya. | | That study reeks of corporate consulting and management. And | it's out there now, research is going on about this. | ebiester wrote: | I absolutely have noticed. In interviews, people coming from | difficult and stressful positions absolutely radiate this in | their interviews! I know that I will feel emotionally drained | after an interview with such people. Further, I have explicitly | worked to de-condition survival behaviors in negative | organizations with new employees multiple times, and it wouldn't | surprise me that these sorts of behaviors could be "contagious" | in other organizations. | azornathogron wrote: | This sounds interesting! If you have time, could you share an | example or two? What survival behaviours are you talking about, | and what kinds of things do you do to decondition these | behaviours? | serpix wrote: | my personal experience as a consultant has been outright fear | of touching the production servers. Fear as in actual fear | response such as nervousness, agitation, facial expressions. | | Other examples would be fear of altering any deeper parts of | the system due to fear of punishment or war room style | crisis. | candiddevmike wrote: | What's wrong with having a healthy fear of touching | production servers? Fear of production is a sign that | person has been through some shit and is probably more | careful, in my experience. | | Touching production is a lot like being an electrician | working on a live circuit. | throwaway5959 wrote: | Sounds like the problem is that it wasn't a healthy fear. | [deleted] | shoo wrote: | I don't have HR or management experience, but I can | speculate: | | - an employee avoids sharing key technical information with | colleagues, either verbally or writing anything down, and | becomes a bottleneck for all changes relating to some system | or component. this could be adapted to maximise tenure at a | previous org that had decided to outsource/"offshore" | technical roles, where sharing key knowledge would result in | you being promptly laid off | | - an employee demonstrates an extreme reluctance to estimate | when any task they are involved with might be done. this | could be adapted to survive in environments where estimates | from individuals are interpreted politically as commitments | to deadlines for unconditional delivery of work, and used to | pressure workers to extract free labor (unpaid overtime) | | - an employee never communicates bad news about schedule | delays, plans not being feasible, designs having serious | flaws, etc. this could be adapted to prior environments where | voicing bad news triggers retribution, and only good news | flows up the org chart | [deleted] | vishal0123 wrote: | I am not the OP, but observed exactly similar behaviour with | a senior hire from Amazon: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25213817. Also the | people who joined from Amazon in our organisation keep | playing blame games, and this clearly spreads to other teams | as well as you have to blame someone back if they blamed you | for what you think are wrong reasons. | cntainer wrote: | Not OP but this definitely rings a bell with me. | | I started my career in a software agency, maybe I was | unlucky, but in this particular agency I overheard the more | senior employees staying after-hours and making fun of the | the junior employees (in their absence) and the quality of | the code they had wrote. There was no actual code review | process but this memory had made me very defensive in regards | to my code. I was always trying to push the perfect code in | one shot, which led me to overthink solution, and if for | whatever reason I had to push a rushed change I felt guilty | and tried to find excuses preemptively. | | At one time I had to onboard the client's new dev team to a | project that I had built alone for about one year. The | product had become successful so the client wanted to invest | in rebuilding it on better foundations to prepare for | accelerating its growth. | | Working alone on the code for a year had subdued my fears of | public shaming but, once I started going through it with a | team of seniors looking over my shoulder, my anxiety went | through the roof. For every new file I was opening I started | my explanation with an apology about the quality of the code | and tried to explain why I didn't have the time during | implementation to write that code properly. | | After the 2nd or 3rd explanation one of the new guys stopped | me and said something like: "You don't have to explain | yourself to us. This code is the result of the context it has | been written in. We are only having this conversation because | the product that you helped build by writing that code is | successful. Because of this success we now have the chance to | spend time and think about how we can improve the code". | | I only realized later, but that was one of the most | liberating things anyone has ever told me. It felt like a | huge weight had just been lifted of my shoulders. People were | looking at my code and discussing it not as a reflection of | my quality as a person but as the output of different factors | and priorities at a given point in time. | | I worked with that team long enough to feel deconditioned | from the previous toxic behavior. | l_theanine wrote: | I've been reading about microbiomes and things like that over the | past year, and I suspect there's a biological aspect to a lot of | mental health issues in workplaces. Certainly the pandemic has | renewed public interest in it, but I think to put it in caveman | terms: sick people leave sick germs where they go. | | I haven't read this paper yet, but it looks pretty cool so far. | The abstract certainly makes it seem worth the read. | | We seem to think ourselves as further removed from meatspace than | we really are. We're a lot more like colonies of ants, I think. | What attacks the ant, attacks the colony. | armatav wrote: | Be very careful who you waste your time working for. | | So many companies are cesspools of mental trauma that are very | inviting places for the unaware, and if you're not strong of mind | you get to subconsciously carry their issues with you for a long | time after. | mistrial9 wrote: | fifteen years ago in California Bay Area, when experienced | programmers showed up a the door of pre-funded companies, and | especially as phones with ads became a huge revenue source, one | internal Human Resources message was "do not hire anyone that | does not have a job already." This conveniently included those | who had their own small business or side-gig priors, as well as | those that did not work well enough with teams, and those newly | graduated without work experience. | | As the raw number of humans with some applicable skills increase | world wide, and the disconnect between pre-funded wealthy | environments and others increases, new invisible "flags" likely | can be applied. | | Not to defend the way business is done in China, but I have heard | that when they assembled teams for an important new company, they | often did not do as the West has done and cast infinitely large | hiring nets with infinitely more nuanced and rare | characteristics, rather in China the rumor is that they just used | who they could find with a reasonable search, and got on with | it.. | | Lastly, it is ironic that the divisive, command and control | environments found in long-term stable business, are actually | very negative to creative and open-minded people who want to try | things.. Yet these "rules" might favor those in the stable | business world, bringing all the anti-communication and top-down | culture from there. odd times | itronitron wrote: | The near term financial security of people making hiring | decisions is dependent on the opinion of only a select few | people. Command and control depends on division. | t344344 wrote: | In my old job I had to fake depression. I lived nice bachelor | life, some coworkers were jealous and toxic. I lied that my gf | left me. I nuked my social media and started posting cats for | adoption...Latter got new girlfriend, 10 years older with two | kids... | | Work become easier. No stress and much less unpaid overtime. | | Workplace culture influences people a lot. | nevertoolate wrote: | Fake it till you make it? | Blackthorn wrote: | Great, as if there wasn't enough just world fallacy bs over | layoffs, now those people have to deal with this too. | oofta-boofta wrote: | >Our findings reveal that when organizations hire employees from | other, unhealthy organizations (those with a high prevalence of | mental disorders), they "implant" depression, anxiety, and | stress-related disorders into their workforces. Employees leaving | unhealthy organizations act as "carriers" of these disorders | regardless of whether they themselves have received a formal | diagnosis of a mental disorder. The effect is especially | pronounced if the newcomer holds a managerial position. | | This sounds sort of like victim blaming to me. I've worked in a | couple of bad environments and felt outright relief when I was | able to go somewhere much better. | | The answer is to do away with toxic work environments, not blame | the person who suffered under them. | mgraczyk wrote: | The point of the paper is that there's more to it than that. | neuroma wrote: | Reminds me of how Psychiatrists have one if the highest suicide | rates of all professions. Seems unusual; like an accountant who's | insolvent, or a mechanics who's car always breaks down. | alana314 wrote: | Interesting but I hope the takeaway isn't demonizing folks that | are depressed or anxious, or having a thought-police toxic | positivity style company culture. | [deleted] | 77pt77 wrote: | Everyone with a bit of life experience can tell that that's | exactly what's happening here. | kayodelycaon wrote: | I think any company who uses this study as hiring criteria is | or will become one of the companies causing the problems. | maximinus_thrax wrote: | Lots of companies are already doing this, with or without this | study. | thuridas wrote: | Let's don't blame people but the toxic learnt behaviors. | whatshisface wrote: | > _Our findings reveal that when organizations hire employees | from other, unhealthy organizations (those with a high prevalence | of mental disorders), they "implant" depression, anxiety, and | stress-related disorders into their workforces. Employees leaving | unhealthy organizations act as "carriers" of these disorders | regardless of whether they themselves have received a formal | diagnosis of a mental disorder. The effect is especially | pronounced if the newcomer holds a managerial position._ | | The study sounds like it is trying to blame the problem on the | suffers (the "contagion" of their depression), but the obvious | explanation of this is that by hiring from organizations with | high stress, you're likely to be hiring perpetrators. That | explains why it is not more likely to happen when the individual | being hired is diagnosed ("Employees leaving unhealthy | organizations act as "carriers" of these disorders regardless of | whether they themselves have received a formal diagnosis"), and | also why it is more likely to happen when they enter a position | of power ("The effect is especially pronounced if the newcomer | holds a managerial position."). | | I am also not sure if the social contagion model has a lot of | evidence for it. If you apply epidemiological models to any data | you will get fits for epidemiological model parameters, and those | will have a built-in epidemiological interpretation - but without | prior knowledge that mental disorders are contagious (I thought | most were definitely not?) you would just be making blind | nonlinear curve fits to generic functions with many possible | explanations. | nerdponx wrote: | How is it blaming the victims? The initial depressed person | that "spreads" their depression to three other people around | them is as much a victim as anyone else. | xyzelement wrote: | // The study sounds like it is trying to blame the problem on | the suffers (the "contagion" of their depression), but the | obvious explanation of this is that by hiring from | organizations with high stress, you're likely to be hiring | perpetrators | | Really strong disagree. In every company I've worked at (4 so | far) the level of mental illness I can observe among coworkers | is directly related to who was hired, not what we do with them. | | As an obvious example, I worked at a hedge fund that strongly | filtered for resilience, ability to overcome obstacles, and | desire to grow through tough feedback. Almost everyone I worked | with there was rational, calm, and sane as a consequence. | | At other places where mental attributes weren't considered (so | let's say a pure tech interview that doesn't amp up the | scenario) you could watch the "crazy" come out of the woodwork | there moment something triggered it. And I think specifically | you could see them feeding on each other's anxiety in the Slack | hangouts, blind, etc. | | At some point, seeing 400 people have a meltdown about the | layoffs that happened, on daily basis for months, takes a toll | on you that's heaving than the impact of the layoff itself. So | yes I see the chorus of crazies impact everyone negatively. | PuppyTailWags wrote: | Yes, I'd be curious to know if they identified perpetrators vs | victims of toxic workplaces. Someone who is leaving Blizzard | because of a scandal where their assaulting other co workers | became public is extremely different from someone leaving | Blizzard because their manager assaulted them. | 77pt77 wrote: | > I'd be curious to know if they identified perpetrators vs | victims of toxic workplaces. | | Simple. | | The perpetrators are successful and therefore well adjusted, | whereas the victims are defective and have to be excluded | lest there be "social contagion". | | The conclusion is its own justification. | | Or, as it's fashionable nowadays, the "just world fallacy". | | A tale as old as time. | closeparen wrote: | It also sounds like it's a bad thing. But one of the standard | plays for startup executives is to deliberately create an | influx of people and culture from Amazon, in order to inject | fear and grind into an organization they see as too fat and | happy. Not only do they believe this effect exists, they lean | into it. | swatcoder wrote: | I don't think you realize how anti-scientific an attitude | you're expressing here. | | If there is "evidence for the social contagion model", this | kind of analysis would be a natural step in developing | hypotheses about where and how to look for it. And if there's | none to be found, those hypotheses will eventually fail to | hold. That's the method. | | If you choose not to collect data or test hypotheses because | you think a question is "most definitely" settled, then you're | not practicing science. | | You may be saving wasted effort or managing some kind of socio- | political dynamic, which may be more important to you, but some | people appreciate science specifically for its ability to upend | "most definite" knowledge now and then. | whatshisface wrote: | Which part was anti-scientific, offering an alternate | hypothesis, or questioning the applicability of the | methodology? | golergka wrote: | You have an implicit assumption that people in toxic | organizations are split into two binary categories of | perpetrators and victims. In my experience, in toxic orgs | everybody thinks of themselves as victims, and everybody | perpetuates toxic behaviors to some extent. | | Also, your comment is talking about value judgements (talk | about blame), whereas the quoted text doesn't have them -- it | is not saying who's the bad guy, it's just saying what will | happen, statistically speaking. | [deleted] | steponlego wrote: | Is it unreasonable to suspect that depressed people can spread | their attitudes to other people? The concept of purely social | diseases is centuries old at this point. | girvo wrote: | Yes it is unreasonable, because depression is not an | "attitude". | wjnc wrote: | Same question but without the DSM-5 diagnosis? I do | recognize that work cultures differ and that people after a | few years internalize the work culture. Some firms have | massively worse performance on absence, sickness and | probably all other kinds of metrics related to well being. | So my prior would be one of "totally true". But keeping an | open mind. The same set of observations could fit other | explanations like that extraverts with people skills switch | jobs more often and that there is clustering of likewise | individuals on certain negative traits. | [deleted] | Negitivefrags wrote: | Clearly it's possible for depression to be affected by | discussion with people around you. | | If that were not possible, then how could therapy have an | effect? | johnchristopher wrote: | > Clearly it's possible for depression to be affected by | discussion with people around you. | | > If that were not possible, then how could therapy have | an effect? | | Because therapy is more than discussion. | jjcon wrote: | I mean it 100% is ultimately discussion no matter how | much one wants to shroud it in academic ivory tower BS. | SketchySeaBeast wrote: | If we reduce it to an incredibly basic form, sure, in the | same way that surgery is just ultimately stabbing with | medical ivory tower BS. | squeaky-clean wrote: | No, therapy usually involves lots of homework as well. | The talking part of it is essential to get there, but if | you just go to therapy to talk it won't help much. | johndunne wrote: | What makes you want to apply reductionism at level 100%. | A discussion might help. | Lalabadie wrote: | This is similar to saying a hiring interview is only | discussion, and any acknowledgment of employee skills or | hiring techniques is just bs managerial posturing. | nerdponx wrote: | I think it does depressed people a disservice to refuse | to accept the possibility that depression might be | contagious, in order to protect them from being demeaned. | Swizec wrote: | Genuine question: how is therapy more than discussion? | Afaik therapists use nothing but words to effect their | treatment. | | I am specifically referring to therapy as distinct of | psychiatry (which uses meds) | johndunne wrote: | Therapy is only as good as the therapist, and it's | difficult to gauge if a therapist will be any good for | one particular person. Getting the right therapist is | critical for therapy to 'work'. Same applies for meds. | But generally, it's about helping a person help | themselves. | johnchristopher wrote: | Look into CBT, which would usually give the patient some | tasks (jotting notes when the problem they seek help for | happens and how problematic/stressful it is on a 1-5 | scale, what happens when they apply some breathing | techniques to cope with it, what happened before/after, | etc.). Also, phobia treatment where the therapist can | walk with you on a bridge to help you overcome fear of | height, etc. | | More broadly though, the conversation you can have with a | therapist has a lot more going on than a regular | discussion. Without getting into the details of every | school I think it's fair to say that these conversations | are guided in subtle and not subtle ways to lead the | patient to introspection and self-reflection much more | than a drink between buddies at a bar would (which is | usually what people on HN tend argue when criticizing | talk therapies). Therapists have to assess where the | patient stands and feel how far the patient can be pushed | to change their outlook on a situation or accept it. | | Put in another way: a debate is also more than a | discussion, same applies to therapy. | Swizec wrote: | Got it. Sounds like the distinction hinges on how one | defines "discussion" | | To your point at the end: the dictionary on iOS defines | discussion as "a conversation or _debate_ about a certain | topic" | | I can certainly agree that therapy is a guided discussion | :) | smohare wrote: | [dead] | ipaddr wrote: | depressed people does not mean clinical depression | joshuamcginnis wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference | cm2012 wrote: | Most human behaviors are contagious to some extent - | depression, obesity, definitely anorexia, etc. | leonidasv wrote: | Sure, but it has triggers. What if those actions act as a | trigger for other pre-disposed people? | mantas wrote: | Clinical depression is not an attitude. But in vast | majority of cases some attitudes was the cause. | cies wrote: | So we should help identify and fix attitudes, instead of | "anti-depressing" them with medication -- sounds | plausible. | wnkrshm wrote: | Though to be fair, the authors argue that in consequence, | companies should actively on-board employees to reduce anxiety | from uncertainty and unknown expectations. | itronitron wrote: | Hmm, I wonder why that wasn't the headline? | thfuran wrote: | Because you can't fit a whole paper in a headline. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-03-05 23:00 UTC)