[HN Gopher] Hardware microphone disconnect (2021)
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Hardware microphone disconnect (2021)
        
       Author : janniks
       Score  : 549 points
       Date   : 2023-03-07 15:28 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (support.apple.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (support.apple.com)
        
       | coldacid wrote:
       | How about a disconnect even when it's open?
        
         | harry8 wrote:
         | Remember when iSight firewire external laptop cameras had a
         | physical iris opaque shutter?
         | 
         | I can't think of a reason not involving TLA conspiracy that has
         | everyone so allergic to a physical switch that disables
         | microphones and a shutter that the camera cannot see through.
         | Cheap, easy, reliable, desirable. Pick any four yet nobody,
         | absoutely nobody does it and if they do they drop it almost
         | immediately.
         | 
         | Lenovo T series have a physical switch that _moves_ the camera
         | in the lid to turn it off, whole camera slides sidways a little
         | but doesn 't cover the lens.
        
       | AlbertCory wrote:
       | (this is about phones as well as laptops)
       | 
       | Not only HW disconnect of the mic, but the speakers as well. I
       | want a switch on the side that does the equivalent of taping over
       | the camera. No software can use them when they're off, period.
       | 
       | Take back your privacy.
        
       | kylehotchkiss wrote:
       | I had no idea about the iPad microphone disconnect. That's cool
       | enough to justify getting a new case. I wish they'd address some
       | of their other products. Optionally enable hardware microphone
       | disconnect on phones when placing upside down with their lockdown
       | mode. No idea how the watch microphone could be disabled.
        
         | worksonmine wrote:
         | > No idea how the watch microphone could be disabled.
         | 
         | Not everything has to be a futuristic gesture you know, could
         | just have a hardware switch like on the librem phones. Also
         | more reliable than the sensors, and that's something I would
         | like for a privacy feature. Knowing that it's disconnected and
         | can't be tampered with.
        
       | al_be_back wrote:
       | a physical switch would be ideal - akin to Ring/Silent feature on
       | iPhones
        
       | bambam24 wrote:
       | [dead]
        
       | teeok2023 wrote:
       | Thanks you
        
       | O__________O wrote:
       | Anyone have an explanation of how Apple actually decides what
       | merits security and what does not?
       | 
       | (For example, it's my understanding that turning turn off a
       | iPhone, it's bluetooth, etc -- does not actually completely turn
       | them off. Also appears hardware/OS specs vary from jurisdiction
       | to jurisdiction; for example, it is my understanding China limits
       | a number of iPhone's hardware/OS specs for domestic iPhones.)
        
         | meatmanek wrote:
         | When you bring up the option to turn off your phone, there's a
         | toggle to let you turn off "Find my iPhone", with a decent
         | description:
         | 
         | "iPhone Findable After Power Off >"
         | 
         | > iPhone Remains Findable After Power Off > Find My helps you
         | locate this iPhone when it is lost or stolen, even in power
         | reserve mode or after power off. > > The location is visible in
         | Find My on your other devices, and to people in Family Sharing
         | you share location with. > > You can temporarily turn off Find
         | My network and it will resume when this iPhone is powered on
         | again. > > OK > Temporarily Turn Off Finding
         | 
         | If you click Temporarily Turn Off Finding, you need to enter
         | your passcode. This is to prevent phone thieves from just
         | turning off your phone to make it untraceable.
         | 
         | My expectation is that if you Temporarily Turn Off Finding, the
         | bluetooth radio is fully off.
        
           | O__________O wrote:
           | Understand your point, though doesn't match my experiences
           | turning a iPhone off fully charged before sleeping (including
           | configuration you mentioned) -- and then leaving it off for
           | the night only to find the battery drained significantly in
           | the morning upon turning it on. Beyond that, unlike the OP
           | article that's subject of this thread, not aware of any Apple
           | support article that clearly states off is off if XYZ is
           | done. Obvious solution would be a switch that physically
           | disconnects the battery, drains capacitors, etc. -- though it
           | would likely require redesign of how the system clock pulls
           | power, though might be wrong:
           | 
           | - https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/87580/how-does-
           | an-...
        
       | Reptur wrote:
       | Should just be a hardware switch you can flip. We should be able
       | to decide whether the webcam or mic is physically connected.
        
         | edgartaor wrote:
         | Exactly. Its like companies are allergic to phisical switches.
        
           | surteen wrote:
           | Except HP, Lenovo, Framework, Purism...
        
       | bobleeswagger wrote:
       | Me at 14: WTF APPLE IT'S MY MICROPHONE
       | 
       | Me at 30: Cool.
        
       | ouid wrote:
       | if only this also disconnected the speakers
        
       | 54bg45b45b wrote:
       | So nice of them to give more privacy features when closing the
       | laptop.
       | 
       | Here is a fun thing that happens if you keep your laptop on to
       | play some music or maybe run a light server with the lid closed.
       | 
       | The backlight of the LCD turns off, but the LCD does not turn
       | off.
       | 
       | This causes screen burn in. There is no way to turn the screen
       | off when you shut certain model mac laptops.
       | 
       | So on one hand, we have a company offering neat privacy gimmicks
       | and on the other, deploying anti-consumer practices at every
       | corner of their product.
       | 
       | Privacy is the bait that will trap you into their money sucking
       | ecosystem. Manage it yourself or companies will always find a way
       | to use it to exploit you. Even when they are not busy actively
       | violating your privacy.
        
         | 7v3x3n3sem9vv wrote:
         | im gonna disagree with this take. I've seen thousands of
         | MacBooks come and go from early 2016 all the way through
         | current models and screen burn in is just not something I've
         | ever seen. hardware/firmware bugs, bloated batteries, keyboard
         | keys rubbed onto the screen, etc sure, but display defects from
         | normal usage? not once.
        
           | 54bg45b45b wrote:
           | I may not have been clear and you may have misunderstood. If
           | you use the laptop as apple intends, there is no issue
           | usually. But the problem is what apple intends is very rigid
           | and there is no room for edge cases at all.
           | 
           | So, to replicate you only need to ensure the laptop stays on
           | while the lid is closed. In my case I was using the laptop as
           | a white noise machine for months.
           | 
           | A few weeks in I opened the lid and noticed burn in. I tried
           | to find ways to manually turn the LCD off but I could find no
           | verifiable way to do this. The only solution I ended up with
           | was running that screen saver with the wavy colors.
           | 
           | The LCD screen does NOT turn off when the lid is closed. Only
           | the backlight, which will NOT prevent burn in.
           | 
           | I am positive all mac laptops are suicidal.
        
             | kaba0 wrote:
             | They are not good at being suicidal given that they have a
             | blooming second/third-market and many people happily use
             | them for years-on-end.
        
       | WalterBright wrote:
       | The microphone/camera disconnect must be a physical switch that
       | physically disconnects it. Absolutely not a software switch.
        
         | tantalor wrote:
         | ... isn't that what is described here? What is the point of
         | this comment.
        
           | WalterBright wrote:
           | I misunderstood. Sorry.
        
       | behnamoh wrote:
       | I wish Apple would think about MacBook screens when the lid is
       | closed. Too many times I've had to wipe clean the display after
       | opening because the keys leave shapes on the monitor.
        
         | kylehotchkiss wrote:
         | Step 1: Clean your keyboard with some Whoosh!
         | (https://www.gearpatrol.com/tech/a38814800/apple-secret-
         | clean...)
         | 
         | Step 2: Don't work while eating or use your external keyboard
        
         | pb7 wrote:
         | I'm curious, what do you propose here? The keys leave imprints
         | because the screen flexes from pressure applied presumably in
         | your bag or similar. MacBooks already have some of the most
         | rigid screens on the market. This is pure physics at play and
         | the imprints come from your oily fingers. What's your
         | suggestion?
        
           | t344344 wrote:
           | Not OP, but I would share my opinion.
           | 
           | Too many compromises were made to make macbook thin
           | (unreliable keyboard, cooling, power delivery, battery,
           | ports, non removable SSD...). Apple should make a model that
           | is a bit thicker without those compromises!
           | 
           | And my Asus does not have key fingerprints on screen...
        
             | pb7 wrote:
             | Does your Asus have a glass screen? Do you carry it in a
             | backpack where there is pressure on the screen? Mind you,
             | this isn't a well known issue. I've had it happen to me
             | once in a decade of owning and frequently traveling with
             | these and my backpack was stuffed to the point that it
             | might damage the screen.
             | 
             | I disagree about making it thicker. The newest MacBook Pros
             | are already extremely thick and heavy. I don't want to be
             | carrying around a brick just because some people don't wash
             | their hands or clean their keyboards every once in a while.
        
               | smoldesu wrote:
               | > Does your Asus have a glass screen?
               | 
               | God I'd hope not. For programming, I cannot think of a
               | single reason you'd want a glass display over a matte
               | one. Maybe if you program in direct sunlight? Even
               | still...
               | 
               | I'll go ahead and agree with the other commenter. Part of
               | why I no longer buy Apple hardware is because of these
               | compromises that they assume I want. Trying to bridge the
               | gap between a "creator-class" laptop and a programming
               | machine hasn't worked out hardware-wise (see: Touch Bar).
               | Paying $500 extra for nano-textured glass that shatters
               | the same from a waist-height fall isn't a solution,
               | either.
        
               | pb7 wrote:
               | I program and I prefer glass displays. It's more uniform,
               | easier to clean, colors are more vibrant, and is easier
               | on the eyes. I opt to not use an external display because
               | most reasonably-priced ones are matte/non-glass and have
               | awful color uniformity.
        
               | smoldesu wrote:
               | I find the glare and reflectivity of glass displays to be
               | more difficult on the eyes and less uniform. Also, since
               | I don't do much color-sensitive work, I've never really
               | run into calibration issues. If anything, it makes the
               | device much harder to use in low-brightness scenarios.
               | 
               | It doesn't bother me since other manufacturers fill this
               | gap, but I'd like to see more options regardless.
        
               | t344344 wrote:
               | Screen on my Zenbook has touch layer, that makes glass a
               | bit thicker I guess. And yes I keep it in stuffed in
               | backpack and sometimes drop it. It is a tool, not museum
               | exponate!
               | 
               | I had other laptops that left fingerprints. But Macbook
               | Air had glass so thin it would randomly pop from
               | temperature difference (well known issue)!
               | 
               | Nobody is forcing you to carry brick around. But some
               | people like to carry brick and Apple should make a new
               | model just for them (MacBrick). Is "wash your hands
               | before use" mentioned in macbook manual?
               | 
               | And how do you even clean keyboard on Macbooks? That
               | thing falls apart with a bad look, and it costs like $800
               | to replace. I can not imagine removing key caps just to
               | clean it up!
        
               | pb7 wrote:
               | >sometimes drop it. It is a tool, not museum exponate
               | 
               | Yeah, why can't it double as a hammer too?
               | 
               | >And how do you even clean keyboard on Macbooks
               | 
               | The same way you do it on any other laptop.
               | 
               | >That thing falls apart with a bad look
               | 
               | No it doesn't.
               | 
               | >But some people like to carry brick and Apple should
               | make a new model just for them
               | 
               | No they shouldn't, go buy your brick from someone else.
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | smoldesu wrote:
               | > No they shouldn't
               | 
               | Allow me to present the sexiest-ever evidence to the
               | contrary: The G3 "Wallstreet" Powerbook.
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_G3
               | 
               | Apple has made excellent portable dev workstations in the
               | past. After the release of the Unibody Macbook Pro
               | though, the focus of their hardware and software focues
               | far, far away from developers. The new 14"/16" lineup is
               | a good return to form, but in the context of how
               | developer-unfriendly modern MacOS is it feels pyrrhic.
               | 
               | If you don't relate to someone's opinion, you don't have
               | to justify Apple's stance against it.
        
               | pb7 wrote:
               | >developer-unfriendly
               | 
               | This is where you lose me. Go to any tech company with
               | pockets deep enough to afford whatever hardware its
               | employees want and the vast majority will have MacBook
               | Pros running macOS.
        
               | smoldesu wrote:
               | Sure, and I've seen it. I've also been responsible for
               | writing the Mac-specific workarounds, and it's not very
               | fun sourcing the correct version of bash from the
               | incorrect install location, or fighting Homebrew
               | consistency across different arches.
               | 
               | MacOS is simply shit for development. Even garbage
               | proprietary Unix like Oracle Linux come with uniform
               | packaging and up-to-date coreutils. MacOS had it's chance
               | to be a developer platform (Xserve) and it just
               | highlighted the most greedy, dysfunctional parts of
               | Apple. It needs tough love to improve, because as-is it
               | feels like Apple is ignoring the industry.
        
               | kaba0 wrote:
               | I do agree with you that pretty linux is the only sane
               | developer environment, but it's not exactly rocket
               | science to make proper linux available for OSX, while
               | still benefiting from the all-around apple ecosystem.
        
         | riffic wrote:
         | wash your hands
        
         | fwlr wrote:
         | I found this with my first MacBook Air. Ever since, I keep the
         | little paper insert that comes with a new MacBook. It stays in
         | my laptop case, solves this issue perfectly.
        
         | kitsunesoba wrote:
         | YMMV, but in my experience this happens mainly when the MacBook
         | has been sitting under something else or packed tightly in a
         | bag. I never see it if the laptop has been closed with nothing
         | applying pressure on the lid.
         | 
         | Not that this isn't a design oversight, but it might be
         | mitigable until Apple makes design tweaks to fix it.
        
           | gorbypark wrote:
           | It's been a thing for 10+ years, I don't think Apple has any
           | interest in design tweaks. I have seen the marks on my new
           | MBA M2 after just closing the laptop and carrying it in my
           | hand for 2 minutes. I wasn't gripping it tightly or anything,
           | just carrying it like a normal human would carry it.
        
             | kitsunesoba wrote:
             | Interesting. I wonder if maybe the smaller models (Air, 13"
             | and maybe 14" Pro) are more prone to this? I've had very
             | little trouble with it on 15" models from 2015 onward or
             | with the 16" M1 Pro.
        
               | lotsofpulp wrote:
               | I have never seen this in my 2015 13in MacBook Air.
        
               | gorbypark wrote:
               | I got the marks all the time on my 2016 13" MacBook Pro,
               | too. I even had the keyboard (and by extension battery)
               | replaced in that machine, and Apple "professionally
               | cleaned" the screen. There were still some permanent
               | keyboard marks on the screen after the cleaning. It's not
               | just oil, but permanent abrasion marks after a while.
        
           | Maxburn wrote:
           | I don't think there is anything to tweak. It's probably
           | designed to have less than 1mm when closed normally and the
           | pressure of being in a book bag will easily flex the aluminum
           | that much, if not bend it. As other said leave the original
           | packing cloth in it and use a hard shell carrying case that
           | won't put pressure on the laptop.
        
           | j45 wrote:
           | Maybe Apple wants it this way to ensure their machines are
           | handled gingerly and reduce warranty claims
        
         | alin23 wrote:
         | I've gone back to using a thin waxed paper _(like the ones you
         | find in shoe boxes)_ between the keyboard and the screen when
         | closing the lid.
         | 
         | It's a bit annoying, but I'm sick of getting delamination after
         | 1 year. I got this M1 Max with the thought that it will be
         | relevant for app development for at least 5 years, and I still
         | want to be able to work outside in the sun until then.
        
           | j45 wrote:
           | Wax paper is a much better idea than some of the keyboard
           | covers I've used in the past, they can dig into the lcd in
           | other ways but are convenient too
        
       | lovehashbrowns wrote:
       | They have this feature but closing the lid on a MacBook or even
       | putting it to sleep allows Bluetooth devices to stay connected.
       | Heck, a MacBook even while in sleep mode will connect to
       | Bluetooth devices. As far as I can see, this requires a third-
       | party app to fix. Can an application still use the microphone on
       | a Bluetooth device that's connected?
        
         | zamfi wrote:
         | Not just Bluetooth but Wi-Fi too. It's literally on the network
         | while asleep and unplugged. Not 100% of the time, but very
         | often.
         | 
         | Drains the battery fast too.
        
           | tagyro wrote:
           | This is (most probably) the Power Nap feature that
           | periodically checks for email, update calendar events etc.
           | You can disable Power Nap from the Settings > Battery.
        
             | zamfi wrote:
             | Yep! Apple doesn't seem to provide a way to disable the
             | bluetooth behavior, but there are tools like bluesnooze
             | that can...
        
         | lxgr wrote:
         | > Can an application still use the microphone on a Bluetooth
         | device that's connected?
         | 
         | I don't see why not, given that it's also possible to use
         | external wired microphones in clamshell mode.
        
         | x3n0ph3n3 wrote:
         | Check out Sleepwatcher [1]. I have ~/.sleep and ~/.wakeup
         | defined to disable and enable bluetooth.
         | 
         | ~/.sleep: /opt/homebrew/bin/blueutil -p 0
         | 
         | ~/.wakeup /opt/homebrew/bin/blueutil -p 1
         | 
         | 1. https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/sleepwatcher
        
         | captainkrtek wrote:
         | Found this, https://github.com/odlp/bluesnooze/ looks to solve
         | this problem.
        
           | asmor wrote:
           | If you need something more selective, BetterTouchTool (which
           | you might already have) has a sleep trigger that allows you
           | to disconnect specific devices.
        
         | babypuncher wrote:
         | Wouldn't this be because BT perhipherals like mice and
         | keyboards need to be able to wake the machine up?
         | 
         | Also FindMy relies on BT to work.
         | 
         | An option to disable BT when the lid is closed might be nice,
         | but it shouldn't be the default. I think _most_ people do not
         | want that.
        
           | lovehashbrowns wrote:
           | I can understand that if I'm just closing the lid but my
           | MacBook shouldn't be connecting to BT devices when it's in
           | sleep mode. My Windows laptop won't do that when it's in
           | sleep mode. This feels counterintuitive to me. There should
           | at least be a setting where I can disable that without having
           | to install a third-party app, y'know? 'Cause I can understand
           | for the need to keep a device connected if I'm just closing
           | the lid, but the laptop isn't going into sleep mode.
           | 
           | It's also really funny how fast all my Apple devices "steal"
           | a BT connection. Both my mb air and my tablet beat all my
           | windows machines at taking over a BT device no matter what I
           | try. I should try to race my tablet and the Air to see which
           | one wins.
        
         | snarf21 wrote:
         | Agreed, why can't the user override the rules for mice/keyboard
         | vs microphone/speaker or overall? I never use my MacBook in
         | clamshell mode. I would prefer that closing it cancels _ALL_
         | Bluetooth connections and prevents reconnect as well.
        
         | Ensorceled wrote:
         | The best part is that closing the lid seems to put it into a
         | "supershitty Bluetooth" state: I can be listening to
         | music/podcast/audiobook from my phone, which is in my pocket,
         | close the laptop and suddenly start getting "Connection <long
         | pause> Lost" every 20-30 seconds until I go back to my laptop
         | and turn off bluetooth.
        
         | mrexroad wrote:
         | It also allows thieves to figure out which cars have a laptop
         | in the trunk.
        
         | altairprime wrote:
         | Yes, I videoconference regularly from a closed-lid MacBook with
         | a Bluetooth headset.
        
         | alexpetralia wrote:
         | And the MacBook is so "greedy" that it will always connect to
         | my Bluetooth devices before anything else can, forcing me to
         | take out the MacBook, open the lid, sign in and disable
         | Bluetooth.
        
         | tagyro wrote:
         | That is actually meant to keep the connection to a Bluetooth
         | keyboard/mouse when using the computer in clamshell mode.
        
           | rpledge wrote:
           | Apples clamshell mode support is super confusing IMHO. This
           | is once thing Windows does better at least by default.
           | Perhaps Macs can be configured to what I expect but I
           | personally have struggled with getting it to work in a way
           | that satisfies me.
        
             | datagram wrote:
             | I feel the opposite way. Trying to get Windows laptops to
             | keep outputting to an external display with the lid closed
             | has always been a hassle for me.
        
               | ChuckNorris89 wrote:
               | _> Trying to get Windows laptops to keep outputting to an
               | external display with the lid closed has always been a
               | hassle for me_
               | 
               | Can't concur with this. My windows laptop is has its lid
               | closed and is outputting to a display. Only thing I do is
               | uncheck the default behavior of putting the laptop to
               | sleep when the lid is closed. This should be enough. Did
               | you do this?
        
             | zamnos wrote:
             | For those of us without both in our lives, can you be more
             | specific on the differences that makes Window's system
             | better?
        
           | mrinterweb wrote:
           | It would be great if certain types of bluetooth devices could
           | remain connected. Physical input devices only would likely be
           | a good default. There is little reason, IMO, for speaker
           | connections to be active. In clamshell mode, I would expect
           | all bluetooth connections to be active, but while suspended,
           | please drop nonessential connections. Being able to override
           | the default disconnect rules per device would be ideal.
        
             | tagyro wrote:
             | > There is little reason, IMO, for speaker connections to
             | be active.
             | 
             | A few comments down:
             | 
             | > @asveikau: I think you should be able to play music while
             | the lid is closed. That seems like a reasonable use case.
             | 
             | Also, wouldn't having a different behaviour, based on
             | specific classes of devices, create more confusion for
             | users?
             | 
             | Oh, and, all together now: Bluetooth sucks!
        
           | wyager wrote:
           | They don't let me use an HDMI display without external power
           | while closed, so why let me use bluetooth without power?
        
             | shortcake27 wrote:
             | The opposite is also true. You can't officially use a
             | Macbook in clamshell mode (eg, as a headless media server)
             | even when connected to power. When you close the lid
             | without a connected display, the official MacOS behaviour
             | is to put the computer to sleep. You need a third-party
             | tool to prevent it from sleeping.
             | 
             | Yet when my Macbook is asleep in my bag with no peripherals
             | attached, my headphones will connect and wake the Mac.
             | 
             | The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.
             | It literally makes no sense.
        
               | wyager wrote:
               | I think we're agreeing - my point is that it doesn't make
               | sense to allow bluetooth when they won't even allow a
               | display (no power, laptop closed). What are you going to
               | use the bluetooth for, moving a mouse you can't even see?
        
           | porbelm wrote:
           | ...and they could make it so it stays on only of there's an
           | external display connected, but then communication could be
           | disabled by the person who stole your laptop. So Find My
           | would not be able to find and more importantly report a
           | location.
        
             | tagyro wrote:
             | > ...and they could make it so it stays on only of there's
             | an external display connected
             | 
             | Not always, my monitor goes to sleep and turns off. At this
             | point, macOS should turn Bluetooth off? How would I wake
             | the computer then? I would have to open it.
             | 
             | > Find My would not be able to find and more importantly
             | report a location.
             | 
             | That might be another reason why Bluetooth stays on. On a
             | laptop, I'd rather have Find My working in clamshell mode
             | (given the theft risk).
        
               | Namari wrote:
               | I wonder if there are more people like you or more into
               | turning it off.
        
               | falcolas wrote:
               | +1 for using a MacBook in clamshell mode most of the
               | time.
        
               | sethammons wrote:
               | I exclusively use it with the lid closed. However, I use
               | wired everything. I use external speakers, monitor,
               | keyboard, mouse, wacom, and dslr camera for webcam. The
               | only thing wireless is my wifi connection.
        
               | shortcake27 wrote:
               | > Not always, my monitor goes to sleep and turns off. At
               | this point, macOS should turn Bluetooth off? How would I
               | wake the computer then? I would have to open it.
               | 
               | So I'm not sure about turning off bluetooth entirely, but
               | waking via bluetooth should be turned off when the laptop
               | is closed without a display attached. There is no use
               | case for waking via bluetooth without a display.
        
         | asveikau wrote:
         | I think you should be able to play music while the lid is
         | closed. That seems like a reasonable use case.
         | 
         | Set computer up on a table, pair Bluetooth speaker, put on your
         | favorite streaming service, close the lid and walk away, the
         | music filling the room. Totally reasonable.
        
           | exitb wrote:
           | That's a different topic really. There are tools that can
           | prevent going to sleep when the lid is closed with no
           | peripherals attached. When not used, most users would expect
           | for the laptop to go to sleep, even if it's playing something
           | at the time.
           | 
           | What this is about is engaging Bluetooth devices while
           | asleep, which doesn't make any practical sense.
        
             | asveikau wrote:
             | > When not used, most users would expect for the laptop to
             | go to sleep
             | 
             | I think part of the problem here is that defining "in use"
             | is actually very difficult, and it's literally something
             | where two different users (or even the same user at
             | different times) could have different expectations for the
             | same circumstance as defined in code.
        
         | causi wrote:
         | God I love having a laptop with proper S3 standby.
        
           | tracker1 wrote:
           | Yeah, even Windows/Linux laptops have started moving away
           | from this... if the startup time isn't too bad, I've gotten
           | in the habit of just completely shutting down when traveling.
           | Nothing worse than a dead battery when you open your laptop
           | because of some background BS trying to run.
        
             | causi wrote:
             | Laptops will even play tricks on you with full shutdown. I
             | had a Thinkpad that, despite being "shut down" kept popping
             | up on my desktop as "available for streaming" on Steam.
        
             | vel0city wrote:
             | I go both ways on this being a feature and a bug.
             | 
             | On one hand, its kind of nice for my trip from my home
             | office into the main office. Opening up my laptop at the
             | other location its already properly connected to the WiFi,
             | applications are already "warming up" and syncing their
             | statuses to the things that changed, bluetooth keyboard and
             | mouse can actually wake the device from "sleep", etc. It
             | gives a far more seamless experience moving from one place
             | to the other.
             | 
             | But I also get the pain of this too. Pulling out my laptop
             | on the airplane and seeing it already at like 93% battery
             | since I left earlier that morning isn't great.
             | 
             | I remember back in the late 90s and early 2000's the dream
             | of having some kind of low power notification screen on the
             | lid or edge of the laptop. I always wanted that: being able
             | to quickly see some of the info without fully booting up or
             | accessing music from the computer while on the go. Of
             | course, smartphones became a thing and have mostly
             | eliminated needing the laptop to do those tasks.
        
         | eligro91 wrote:
         | Happens to me as well. when I'm turning on my wireless
         | headphones and trying to match with my phone, the closed
         | macbook is connecting to it first. this is annoying and
         | requires me either to: 1. pair from scratch 2. go to the
         | macbook, open it, turn off bluetooth.
         | 
         | annoying
        
           | a9h74j wrote:
           | Sadly or happily for me: one device, one specific pair of
           | bluetooth headphones. I've started getting the $15 ones.
        
         | elzbardico wrote:
         | The problem here is that people that use external keyboards and
         | mice over BT expect to be able to wake their MacBooks connected
         | to external displays even with the lid closed.
        
           | andoma wrote:
           | Nah, Makes no sense. I can manually disconnect the BT audio
           | headset while having keyboard and mouse still working fine
           | over BT.
        
             | hackmiester wrote:
             | I do not think this is as simple as you believe it is.
             | Would the average user not find this really confusing?
             | 
             | You plug your laptop into your dock and close it, and
             | suddenly your AirPods stop working, even though the rest of
             | the computer works fine?
        
               | andoma wrote:
               | I'm totally fine with it keeping BT audio active when
               | it's connected to anything else (even the charger I
               | guess). The annoying thing, for me at least, is when it
               | decides it absolutely has to take over my Bose Headphones
               | while closed in my backpack, not playing any audio, and
               | I'm out traveling with it and my iPhone.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | dvirsky wrote:
         | This has to be the most annoying thing in MacOS. My laptop,
         | soundly sleeping in my backpack, takes over my bluetooth
         | headphones all the time.
        
           | dom96 wrote:
           | I have gotten used to switching off Bluetooth on my mac
           | before closing the lid because of this. Infuriating.
        
           | copperx wrote:
           | Mine connects to the goddamn car, overriding my cell phone.
        
           | gnicholas wrote:
           | I don't understand why the bluetooth-stealing happens so
           | often. I'll literally be in the middle of a podcast on my
           | phone, and my iPad in the next room (on which my kids have
           | been watching something) will take over my headphones.
           | There's no change in state on either device (not
           | stopping/starting), and I haven't moved close to the iPad
           | (and the iPhone is much closer, in my pocket). I just have to
           | turn off bluetooth entirely on the iPad to avoid this.
        
             | kaushikc wrote:
             | I suspect the problem could be the bluetooth technology
             | itself.
        
             | disgruntledphd2 wrote:
             | Bluetooth is basically the devil though. My Bose speaker
             | cant handle the fact that I always want my Android phone,
             | and keeps insisting that I really want my child's IPad.
        
             | TheBozzCL wrote:
             | It's a generalized problem in Apple devices.
             | 
             | I use a USB/bluetooth headphone DAC/amp. Most of the time,
             | I plug it into my work laptop and listen to videos/music
             | while I work. Sometimes, if a video ends or if I pause
             | playback, my iPhone (which INSISTS on connecting to the
             | amp) will take over and start playing music.
             | 
             | I really wish you could turn off auto-connect to bluetooth
             | devices.
        
           | supermdguy wrote:
           | I hate that this isn't configurable by default, but
           | bluesnooze solved this for me:
           | https://github.com/odlp/bluesnooze
        
             | chenghuzi wrote:
             | [dead]
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | jbj wrote:
             | this comments reminds me about owning a mac and installing
             | a github repo to allow mouse scrolling direction to not be
             | tied to touch pad scrolling
             | 
             | [edit] just following up, it was UnnaturalScrollWheels,
             | which have been notarized: https://github.com/ther0n/Unnatu
             | ralScrollWheels/releases/tag...
        
               | jdlyga wrote:
               | We typically use LinearMouse for this. Allows you to even
               | set scrolling direction, scroll speed, acceleration
               | profile, etc per mouse.
               | 
               | But yeah, MacOS is a little like Gnome Shell. It requires
               | a few basic apps to make it usable, but after that it's
               | pretty excellent.
        
               | johnmaguire wrote:
               | Thanks for mentioning LinearMouse. I've previously used
               | Scroll Reverser so it's nice to hear of other options in
               | this space.[0]
               | 
               | [0] https://pilotmoon.com/scrollreverser/
        
               | gligorot wrote:
               | Do you have a list of helpful apps?
        
               | jraph wrote:
               | Hello 2005 GNU/Linux!
               | 
               | Installing random packages to fix OS stuff that should
               | work out of the box was fun for a while :-)
        
               | naikrovek wrote:
               | here's the thing, though: "working as intended" and
               | "working as you intend" are _very different things._
               | 
               | no operating system ever has arrived on a user's computer
               | completely configurable to any given user's preferences.
               | 
               | you're complaining about something that simply isn't
               | possible without third party software and time spent by
               | the user in question.
        
               | ChuckNorris89 wrote:
               | _> "working as intended" and "working as you intend" are
               | very different things._
               | 
               | You're holding it wrong
        
               | 0cVlTeIATBs wrote:
               | I was surprised by needing to do this when switch to
               | MacOS. So many things _don 't_ "just work" despite all
               | that I've heard about it.
        
               | JohnBooty wrote:
               | Overwhelmingly, it does "just work" as Apple intended.
               | 
               | However, it's often quite opinionated. So Apple's
               | intended functionality may or may not jive with _your_
               | preferences. This is neither a defense nor criticism of
               | Apple, and it 's not a defense or criticism of your
               | preferences either.
               | 
               | I will point out that anecdotally, I don't hear too many
               | people wanting their mouse's scrolling to work in the
               | opposite direction as their trackpad. I think Apple's
               | probably got well over 99% of the userbase covered with
               | the defaults and opinions here. From a software/QA/UX
               | perspective things get wild pretty quickly if you cover
               | every < 1% use case.
        
               | ChuckNorris89 wrote:
               | _> I think Apple's probably got well over 99% of the
               | userbase covered with the defaults and opinions here._
               | 
               | The vast amount of MacOS apps built by the community to
               | undo Apple's terrible and backwards UX choices, and the
               | amounts of sales those apps get, disproves your theory
               | that over 99% of people are fine with the defaults Apple
               | forces on its users.
        
               | mtrower wrote:
               | Does it? Or is it possible that 1% is still pretty large?
        
               | ChuckNorris89 wrote:
               | Maybe it's bigger than 1%.
        
               | gumby wrote:
               | The existence of such programs merely says there are
               | enough users willing to install such programs that it's
               | worth making them available (and that macs have the
               | affordances -- APIs -- to make these kinds of changes,
               | which ios does not have). There are so many macs in use
               | that a tiny percentage is enough.
               | 
               | I suspect the same is true in the general case in the ios
               | app store: that there is a long tail of apps used by a
               | tiny %age of users, but with an enormous user base that's
               | enough to make a free or even paid app.
               | 
               | And after about 35 years of mousing and about four years
               | of iphoning I expected to want to revert apple's change
               | to mouse-gesture-scrolling with Lion, but after only a
               | few seconds I was sold. YMMV, of course, but I agree with
               | the "99%" hypothesis.
        
               | goosedragons wrote:
               | That setting is particularly terrible because they mirror
               | it in both "mouse" and "trackpad" settings or at least
               | that's how they used to do it. So it SEEMS like you can
               | have independent settings for a mouse and trackpad but
               | they control the same thing (which is equally weird, does
               | any other setting do that?).
        
               | serf wrote:
               | > Overwhelmingly, it does "just work" as Apple intended.
               | 
               | that's a creative re-wording of "you're holding it the
               | wrong way."
               | 
               | Not all Apple fans have been on board with the slow morph
               | from general purpose computer to walled-garden console --
               | although admittedly that audience is probably mostly
               | gone, anyway.
        
               | karaterobot wrote:
               | FWIW, I think the phrase "just works" implies that you,
               | the user, should expect it to work without any tweaks or
               | workarounds. So, the user's preferences are implied.
               | Saying that it just works in _many cases_ , or that it
               | just works _for Apple_ is not what is implied by that
               | marketing. It 's a strong promise that was chosen for a
               | reason, and in many cases they do not live up to it.
        
               | JohnBooty wrote:
               | you, the user, should expect it to work without any
               | tweaks or workarounds
               | 
               | I think that, for any reasonable definition of "it just
               | works", it would clearly refer to essential functionality
               | and not the extremely long tail of niche tweaks that at
               | least one user out of millions might want to perform.
               | 
               | For example on Apple devices I've often wanted a feature
               | that would let me skip PIN/FaceID authentication when
               | connected to my home network. No such feature exists. But
               | I'd say there's a clear distinction between a missing
               | feature and "not just working."
               | 
               | Of course, "it just works" is a vague marketing phrase
               | that they haven't used in a long time, perhaps a decade
               | or more? So, whatever. You have the power to decide it
               | means whatever you want it to mean, and then decide if
               | Apple meets your made-up standard or not. I freely admit
               | that's what I'm doing.
        
               | karaterobot wrote:
               | > I think that, for any reasonable definition of "it just
               | works", it would clearly refer to essential functionality
               | 
               | Really? I always heard it as something more like "we've
               | thought of everything, all the details, and you don't
               | have to fiddle with our products like with Windows." I
               | think essential functionality is _always_ implied, with
               | any product, but with Apple, it seemed like their promise
               | was for a higher level of user experience than that.
               | 
               | Acknowledged that this is an old marketing statement (I
               | believe it was a Jobs-ism, which dates it), but please
               | look at the context of the thread.
        
               | taneq wrote:
               | Do they still use that line? While some of their newer
               | stuff does meet that standard, a lot more "just works if
               | you already know what it does" (eg. AirPods need to be in
               | the case to pair... why?) and still more seems kinda
               | random (fk you iOS keyboard.)
        
               | karaterobot wrote:
               | I don't think they do, but I was responding to a comment
               | about the applicability of the phrase to current Apple
               | products. Maybe "it just works" is like Google's "do the
               | right thing": both make sense if you append "(for us)" to
               | the end.
        
               | addandsubtract wrote:
               | The zoom scroll is disconnected from the scroll direction
               | as well. I'm not sure if they fixed it by now or if I
               | just got used to it, but it was super disorienting when I
               | noticed it.
        
           | tbarbugli wrote:
           | I had the same, switching to Airpods "fixed" this problem. I
           | doubt Apple will ever do something about this, bt audio works
           | fine as long as you use iPhone, Macbook and Apple pods
        
             | mgkimsal wrote:
             | 'audio' mostly does, unless that audio involved answering a
             | call (posted about this in a separate thread). The
             | experience of listening to music on a mac with airpods,
             | then trying to answer an incoming call _on the phone, and
             | using the airpods_ , is abysmally slow, in my experience.
        
             | cortesoft wrote:
             | I have AirPods, but the experience still sucks with
             | multiple devices.
             | 
             | I have my phone, my laptop, my iPad, and two iPads for my
             | kids, all on my account. I literally am unable to make my
             | kid's iPads forget my AirPods, because it is tied to the
             | apple account. If I have the iPads forget them, it forgets
             | them on all my devices. It is annoying as hell, I have to
             | leave Bluetooth off on my kids iPads.
        
               | zamnos wrote:
               | Umm, your children's accounts are on children accounts
               | and not literally your account though, right? Because
               | that could cause problems down the line.
               | 
               | https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/set-up-a-childs-
               | devic...
        
               | hamburglar wrote:
               | "Ummm" aside, this is not at all obvious. I have an iPad
               | from before I had kids. When setting it up, I was asked
               | to enter my Apple ID, so I did. Then came kids and a new
               | use for this iPad, and a second iPad, which obviously
               | needed the same apps, and a third. No, it never occurred
               | to me to set up appleids specifically for toddlers. It
               | did eventually prompt me to set up a new "iPads" appleid
               | when I switched from android to iPhone and suddenly
               | discovered that all my text messages were being delivered
               | to my children. But the ipads are family devices, not
               | per-child, and if apple thinks I'm going to give each kid
               | an appleid, they aren't paying attention to how people
               | actually want to use their devices.
        
               | cortesoft wrote:
               | Not sure if you have kids, but the devices didn't start
               | out as being theirs. It was my iPad, they started using
               | it more as they got older, and eventually I got a new one
               | for me. I should set it up properly, but it happened
               | gradually and I have not gotten around to changing it...
               | and now all the apps and accounts and settings are tied
               | to my Apple ID.
        
               | ehPReth wrote:
               | The kids iPads should be on their own managed kids Apple
               | IDs, should they not? https://support.apple.com/en-
               | us/HT201084
        
               | giobox wrote:
               | Emphasis on _should_ here. In the  "real world" with real
               | family pressures a lot of the time good account hygene
               | goes out the window. In my experience account sharing is
               | rife on "kid" iPads, especially as many of them are often
               | hand-me-down devices that people don't want to have to go
               | through the pain of reinstalling everything again for a
               | new user.
               | 
               | The ideal solution is iOS on iPad gets multiple user
               | account support (like general purpose Macs and PCs have
               | had for decades....), and you could just quickly throw on
               | a new kid account, but Apple clearly like forcing you to
               | buy one iPad per user account and reinstall _everything_
               | every time it gets a new user - shared devices aren 't as
               | great for the company bottom line.
               | 
               | The sad thing is this support is largely there in the OS
               | already built; its just locked to schools/businesses and
               | is a PITA to setup for private owners:
               | 
               | https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/shared-ipad-
               | overv...
               | 
               | Honestly, the lack of multiple user accounts is
               | borderline criminal in my opinion, especially on the high
               | spec expensive M1 iPad models that cost as much as a
               | multi-user laptop.
        
               | ehPReth wrote:
               | I agree; it's really a shame that they don't have multi-
               | user support unlocked for iPads with Family Sharing,
               | especially for those with kids! It's right there and
               | probably wouldn't take too many engineering resources..
               | 
               | I'd be worried that little Timmy would accidentally turn
               | on photo sync or something for the adult's account and
               | see... certain pictures he should not be seeing kinda-
               | thing. Or iMessage and send something to someone. Though;
               | if you're strict about the restrictions feature or guided
               | access you should be safe?
        
               | chrisfinazzo wrote:
               | For the average person, they (Apple) probably feel like
               | Family Sharing is the right mechanism to address these
               | issues. Education and Business customers have Shared iPad
               | because of the different environments they operate in
               | where the use case is clear.
               | 
               | In a world where (generally speaking) people are
               | expensive and hardware is cheap, Apple probably thinks
               | each person having their own device is easier than trying
               | to shuffle around - potentially - 1 TB home directories
               | for each person.
               | 
               | We're getting closer, but storage and networks need to
               | get even better before the majority of regular people can
               | do this and will tolerate it, not just the power users.
        
               | giobox wrote:
               | > hardware is cheap
               | 
               | There is nothing cheap about iPads, especially the models
               | that have the same M1 processors and similar pricepoints
               | as a MacBook. It's laughable they don't have multiple
               | user support today, and is solely to protect sales of the
               | devices.
               | 
               | I'm genuinely surprised someone would defend this
               | behaviour. Imagine you bought any other computer for
               | north of 1000 dollars and you could only log one person
               | in at a time - its unheard of, and was solved decades
               | ago.
               | 
               | Again, iOS is already a multi-user OS - Apple just choose
               | to artificially restrict how you can use it.
               | 
               | > potentially - 1 TB home directories for each person.
               | 
               | This is just being silly - people log families and many
               | users into drives far smaller than this _all the time_.
        
               | jmbwell wrote:
               | Creating AppleIDs for your kids through Family Sharing
               | and using those AppleIDs on those devices would solve
               | this. You as organizer can view and manage all devices;
               | all purchases are paid through your account (but are tied
               | to the purchaser), and you can set restrictions and
               | require permissions for many activities (including in-app
               | purchases). Plus, all the bluetooth devices remain per-
               | user. And it keeps your stuff out of their stuff and vice
               | versa (though selected items can be shared).
               | 
               | https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201088
        
               | cortesoft wrote:
               | I should do this for my kids, yes, but it is still
               | annoying just for my own devices. I don't want to use my
               | AirPods on all my devices, just one... why can't I do
               | that?
        
               | miskin wrote:
               | On the device you do not want them to connect to
               | automatically go to Bluetooth settings, find your
               | AirPods, click on (i) and change "Connect to this iPhone"
               | from "Automatically" to "When Last Connected to This
               | iPhone".
        
           | lrem wrote:
           | Microsoft does the same. My Bose QC35s keep going "surface
           | connected", "surface disconnected" every couple minutes.
        
           | tcmart14 wrote:
           | This is the exact headache I have.
        
           | georgelyon wrote:
           | I've long desired form my AirPods to operate in a "play any
           | sound from any of my devices" mode. This seems like a no-
           | brainer and such phantom connections would as a result have
           | no user-visible impact and you could do things like listen to
           | music coming from your phone while hearing sounds from your
           | MacBook.
        
             | mgkimsal wrote:
             | Unsure if I would love or hate that, but it might be more
             | natural than the iphone/airpods/mac "incoming call" fiasco
             | I face regularly.
             | 
             | Airpods/MacOS - listening to background music. Phone call
             | comes in... VERY LOUD facetime 'ring' announces on mac that
             | I'm getting a phone call.
             | 
             | Pick up phone to answer it... holy tamole - it's minimum 8
             | seconds between clicking 'answer' and... eventually airpods
             | switching over to phone - most of the time. To the calling
             | party, I've 'answered', but they can't hear me - or... can
             | sort of hear me, but I can't hear them. The speed at which
             | the 'switch' takes place, and the visual delay (air pod
             | icons turning on, then off, then on again, then a floating
             | top notification saying "airpods connected"...)... this is
             | always minimum 8 seconds. Usually 10-11.
             | 
             | I just say "hang on, i'm switching my earpiece over..." and
             | wait. Annoying. Given that this is _all_ in their
             | ecosystem, I expect this to get better, not worse. I 'd
             | rather this sort of experience get fixed vs more emojis, or
             | 'sidecar' or whatnot.
        
               | leipert wrote:
               | Honest question: Why don't you answer the call from the
               | Mac? Or do you have that continuity feature disabled?
        
               | chrisfinazzo wrote:
               | This was one of the first things I disabled with
               | Continuity. As for why, it's not that complicated.
               | 
               | 1) It's a distraction. I am also one of those people who
               | turned on "Silence unknown callers" to send everyone I
               | don't know to voicemail. If it's important, you'll get a
               | message there. My phone either lives in my pocket or is
               | on the desk next to me, so it's very unlikely I'd miss
               | something.
               | 
               | 2) At least with AirPods, although I have "connect
               | automatically" turned on, I will never intentionally
               | connect them to more than one source at a time.
               | 
               | Therin lies madness and bugs.
        
               | officeplant wrote:
               | Idk how you live without silence unknown callers. I get
               | an upwards of 20 spam calls a day interrupting me
               | otherwise while using the phone.
        
               | chrisfinazzo wrote:
               | I _do_ use it, not sure how that was unclear.
        
               | officeplant wrote:
               | Ah sorry, My brain completely fumbled your sentence.
        
               | chrisfinazzo wrote:
               | No worries,
               | 
               | I had to reread my own sentence to make sure I wasn't
               | being a complete moron.
               | 
               | NOTE TO SELF: COFFEE COFFEE COFFEE
        
               | mgkimsal wrote:
               | I _usually_ want to walk away from the computer. I sit at
               | the computer enough already. If a call comes in, I want -
               | sometimes need - to be able to walk away.
               | 
               | The long/short of it is, both devices 'know' about the
               | airpods. Call comes in to phone, during an answer, having
               | airpods switch to the phone _quickly_ - like, under 2
               | seconds - is what I 'm expecting. I'm not sure that's an
               | unreasonable expectation (maybe it is?). At some point, I
               | would think, given all the neural-core-AI stuff in the
               | phones and ecosystem, it should know that I always switch
               | airpods to phone to talk... maybe do it automatically at
               | some point?
               | 
               | The phone now knows my daily routine, giving me traffic
               | updates 10 minutes before I normally leave to hit the
               | gym. Yet... the 'fill in your email' prompts on the phone
               | suggest 'my' email address is something I have not
               | actively used in 11 years. I don't understand the 'why'
               | behind some of these things. If the device is going to
               | learn... when will it learn I don't use that email
               | address any longer? Obviously separate issue, but... as
               | has gone on for decades - we get loads of new features,
               | but often little attention paid to clean up and refine
               | last year's new features.
        
               | sroussey wrote:
               | Why have the Mac ring if you don't answer from the Mac? I
               | turned that off in settings. Still text via Mac though!
        
               | mgkimsal wrote:
               | "settings" was vague. I looked in system settings -
               | nothing there. Apparently, it's a 'facetime' setting?
               | Will this make switching 'audio from mac via airpods' to
               | 'audio from iphone via airpods' any faster?
        
               | givinguflac wrote:
               | You should be able to tap the speakerphone icon on your
               | iPhone, choose AirPods, and they'll switch immediately in
               | my experience
        
               | freemanofthewan wrote:
               | This "why" has been growing since Steve passed. I have
               | been an Apple user for 20+ years. The experience has been
               | slowly going downhill for the last 5 years. I think they
               | survived on Steve's vision for the first couple of years
               | after his passing. The brains behind Apple are still
               | there, clearly, M1, M2... the vision is missing. The
               | why's you mention seem to be those unpolished pieces
               | Steve would never have allowed the release of.
        
               | mgkimsal wrote:
               | This is why I (and many others) I think still have some
               | fond memories of Snow Leopard, marketed as 'bug fix'
               | release. That feels like the last time there was a united
               | push to polish up existing stuff without throwing in
               | 'new' things.
        
               | officeplant wrote:
               | I just remember being glad it was only $29.
        
               | RulerOf wrote:
               | I've often said that Airpods are the best bluetooth
               | headphones I've ever bought, and they still suck.
        
               | leipert wrote:
               | That makes sense! I don't use my AirPods with my work
               | MacBook, as I have separate Apple IDs. So the continuity
               | feature doesn't work for me anyhow.
               | 
               | Also: I don't get a lot of calls anyway. But when I do, I
               | tend to wander around as well. So it makes complete
               | sense.
        
               | zakki wrote:
               | I feel many objections to Apple's products behavior are
               | responded with "a suggestion " to just follow Apple way.
        
               | leipert wrote:
               | Oh. I wasn't objecting. I am not getting many calls,
               | maybe one a week, but the explanation of "picking up and
               | wandering around" makes complete sense.
        
               | AdamGibbins wrote:
               | I disabled that as it has some very confusing and
               | undesired behaviour. For example if you're listening to
               | Spotify on your Mac, then get a call on your iPhone you
               | hit pause on your keyboard media keys so you can pick up
               | the call - and it hangs up.
        
           | yamtaddle wrote:
           | Seems like a hard choice between two kinds of behavior that
           | will annoy two different sets of people, and are mutually
           | exclusive.
        
             | shortcake27 wrote:
             | There used to be a option to disable bluetooth devices
             | waking a Mac. It was removed a couple years ago. I can kind
             | of understand because this would also prevent a
             | keyboard/mouse waking the Mac, which isn't ideal. I assume
             | a lot of people were turning this setting off then
             | complaining their Mac won't wake.
             | 
             | However, if a Macbook is sleeping and closed with no
             | peripherals attached, I can't see any use case for waking
             | from bluetooth. It doesn't make sense.
        
               | yamtaddle wrote:
               | Sleeping but plugged into a monitor, while closed, would
               | be one. For other cases, I suspect it's more about making
               | sure the device(s) can be used almost instantly after
               | waking.
               | 
               | Does seem like it'd be nice if the behavior were
               | something you could toggle, though.
        
           | cj wrote:
           | Similarly, whenever I'm working at my kitchen table I always
           | "lose" my mouse as if there's another monitor connected.
           | 
           | I realized a couple weeks later MacOS display continuity (or
           | "sidecar"?) was connecting to my Mac Mini located directly
           | upstairs using it as a 2nd monitor while I'm downstairs.
           | 
           | My apple watch also regularly unlocks my Mac Mini when I'm
           | downstairs (Mac Mini in a bedroom upstairs).
           | 
           | All of these features pose serious security issues if your
           | physical location isn't secure/trusted.
           | 
           | There really should be a "Travel Mode" for MacOS that
           | disables features like these. No one wants airport security
           | to open a laptop and have the apple watch immediately unlock
           | it for them while standing 20 feet away (or in another room).
        
             | sroussey wrote:
             | You should spend a few minutes in setting. Continuity
             | allows a mouse and keyboard to run multiple macs and iPads.
             | You move the cursor all the way over to the end of the
             | screen. It stops but if you push more it will switch to the
             | neighboring Mac. Easy to disable in settings. You can
             | unlock your other Mac this way (I think), and Apple Watch
             | will unlock if you are close by. All changeable in
             | settings.
        
               | cj wrote:
               | Problem is I like Apple Watch unlocking. But not randomly
               | when I'm downstairs cooking dinner!
        
               | highwaylights wrote:
               | I don't really trust it. The sports bands (which I find
               | most comfortable) are especially vulnerable to being
               | "scooped" off the wrist with two fingers in a single
               | motion without interrupting the presence detection.
        
               | sroussey wrote:
               | For sure!
               | 
               | Now that I have an apple silicon Mac and a keyboard with
               | touch id, I turned that feature off.
        
             | JustSomeNobody wrote:
             | > There really should be a "Travel Mode" for MacOS that
             | disables features like these.
             | 
             | Sadly that is not the Apple way. We'll have to wait years
             | for them to come up with a "solution" that doesn't involve
             | a disable button. If they even decide to work on it.
        
               | sneak wrote:
               | Simply powering off the laptop already enables what the
               | user is asking for. Apple has thought of this.
        
               | naikrovek wrote:
               | your optimism is contagious
        
             | unxdfa wrote:
             | I've disabled unlock with Apple Watch and bought a touch ID
             | magic keyboard. This is a far better solution!
             | 
             | It was neat for a couple of days until I was walking out of
             | the room and my mac unlocked itself.
        
               | kingkawn wrote:
               | FYI the feds can legally compel you to use biometric
               | scanning to open your device, but cannot compel you to
               | give up passcodes.
               | 
               | Last I heard
        
               | scarface74 wrote:
               | Because law enforcement always follows the rules and they
               | don't employ rubber hose decryption.
        
               | unxdfa wrote:
               | Feds is not an attack vector that concerns me. My
               | coworkers or kids changing my wallpaper or getting access
               | to my kit is.
        
               | kaba0 wrote:
               | Can't they just touch the sensor like 3 times and then
               | make you tell the password?
        
               | krastanov wrote:
               | I think you got this backwards. The 5th amendment means
               | that the state can not force you to share information you
               | have in your head, e.g. you can not be forced to give a
               | password. But the state can force you to give a physical
               | key, harware token, or a biometric read.
        
               | TeMPOraL wrote:
               | Can they force you to give up the post-it on which you
               | wrote down your password? If yes, are there any real
               | limits to how much pressure they can apply before they
               | give up? If no, what's stopping them from giving you a
               | pencil and a stack of post-its, and letting you know
               | they'll keep applying pressure until you produce _a_
               | post-it with the password on it, which they  " _know_ "
               | you have " _somewhere_ "?
               | 
               | Point being, I feel this is getting into xkcd://538
               | territory.
        
               | kaba0 wrote:
               | Oh yeah, for some reason my brain reversed the logic,
               | thanks! :D
               | 
               | Though certain EU courts can "make you give up" your
               | password, as far as I know. Nonetheless, security is only
               | good when it is used -- widely-used biometrics with a
               | potentially stronger password (due to not having to enter
               | it all the times) is statistically safer for the
               | population over everyone having "password1" as a secret.
               | Especially with a good fallback like emergency mode on
               | iphone/apple watch. Afterwards only the password can
               | unlock the device, and it is a single long press of two
               | hardware buttons.
        
             | jackson1442 wrote:
             | Definitely should be an os-level feature to disable all
             | that, similar to using panic mode on ios to disable
             | biometrics.
             | 
             | I personally boot my laptops to the filevault screen and no
             | further when going through the security checkpoints. Keeps
             | the disk encrypted and requires my password to continue.
        
               | highwaylights wrote:
               | "Would you like to enter the password before or after I
               | check in the back to see if we have any latex gloves
               | left, sir?"
        
               | mikepurvis wrote:
               | Doesn't look like Filevault has a duress option--
               | otherwise it'd be pretty nice to have a separate password
               | that boots you to a dummy partition showing a fresh
               | desktop install with apparently nothing on it. For bonus
               | points, you could have the dummy OS kernel-patched so
               | that it doesn't even show the other partitions as
               | existing, and just pretends it's occupying the whole disk
               | with mostly empty space.
               | 
               | "That computer? Oh yeah, I just picked it up, officer;
               | was going to start configuring it when when I arrive at
               | my destination."
        
               | actionfromafar wrote:
               | Rookie mistake. It should have a shitload of random stuff
               | on it, recently updated, _including_ something mildly
               | embarrasing1 on it.
               | 
               | 1: it depends on the person what that is, but it should
               | be believable, "in character" so to speak.
        
             | thomaslkjeldsen wrote:
             | > There really should be a "Travel Mode" for MacOS that
             | disables features like these.
             | 
             | Have you tried macOS Lockdown Mode?
        
               | mattpavelle wrote:
               | macOS Lockdown Mode is not intended to be used by casual
               | travelers to prevent unintended macOS unlocks.
               | 
               | Per Apple, "Lockdown Mode is an optional, extreme
               | protection that's designed for the very few individuals
               | who, because of who they are or what they do, might be
               | personally targeted by some of the most sophisticated
               | digital threats. Most people are never targeted by
               | attacks of this nature."
        
               | lostlogin wrote:
               | That seems a crazy way to keep mines mouse attached.
        
             | sneak wrote:
             | Powering off the computer will do that. The passphrase is
             | always required on cold boot.
        
           | unxdfa wrote:
           | Mine doesn't do that at all (M1 14" MBP). Are you on an M1
           | macbook or an Intel one out of interest?
        
           | lancesells wrote:
           | Keyboard Maestro and Shortcuts.app can turn it on and off on
           | Sleep and Wake.
        
           | _a_a_a_ wrote:
           | This is hilarious. And people wonder why I'm such a Luddite.
        
             | 867-5309 wrote:
             | the best bit is when they want to squash features
        
           | hamburglar wrote:
           | This comment section is a sheer delight to anyone who's ever
           | said they prefer wired headphones because of the flakiness of
           | Bluetooth and had a chorus of people respond that they must
           | be doing something wrong because Bluetooth "just works."
        
         | vosper wrote:
         | There's a thing called Kill Bluetooth on Sleep (KBOS) that
         | works perfectly for me (2015 MacBook Pro)
         | 
         | https://github.com/alb12-la/KBOS
        
         | prepend wrote:
         | I like how sleep works on my MacBook in that I can close my
         | screen and open it back up to work in less than a second. On
         | windows this doesn't work. Half the time my dell or Lenovo
         | freeze up and the other half it hangs for seconds.
         | 
         | However, I notice that it sleep mode it will have tons of
         | network traffic and I wish there was a setting to make it
         | really turn off when the lid is closed and not do anything.
        
         | gligorot wrote:
         | And you can't turn bluetooth off without logging in first, a
         | feature which is available for WiFi. Horrendous UX decisions by
         | Apple.
        
           | threeseed wrote:
           | > a feature which is available for WiFi
           | 
           | I am not able to disable WiFi from the login screen.
           | 
           | I think it would be a horrendous decision to allow random
           | people to do this.
        
           | porbelm wrote:
           | Well if you have the Find My Device functionality enabled,
           | not being able to turn off Bluetooth (and WiFi) is a _good_
           | thing, since a thief cannot disable location deriving and
           | reporting features by turning them off.
        
             | 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
             | Surely the Bluetooth beacon/Find My Device workflow could
             | be separated from the user accessible headphones use.
        
             | gligorot wrote:
             | I don't think those are connected...or at least it would be
             | silly for that to be the case. Say your laptop was stolen
             | when your BT was off for some random reason - does that
             | mean you won't be able to find it?
        
               | threeseed wrote:
               | Bluetooth is a fundamental part of the Find My and
               | broader Location Services stack.
               | 
               | Low power devices like AirTag rely entirely on Bluetooth
               | LE and the Find My network to determine their location.
        
           | joshstrange wrote:
           | > Horrendous UX decisions by Apple.
           | 
           | Is there any OS that offers that by default? I don't remember
           | ever seeing that on Windows or any linux distro I used.
        
             | gligorot wrote:
             | Whether other OSs do by default is irrelevant. Are you
             | saying that I just be content with the ability to turn off
             | WiFi?
             | 
             | Besides, MacOS is cherished by many as a UX/UI masterpiece,
             | yet there are many annoyances that need to be fixed by the
             | user. For example window management is a big one, I simply
             | haven't been able to achieve the comfort of i3 on my work
             | Mac. (tmux comes close, but I can't run Firefox in there)
        
       | I_am_tiberius wrote:
       | In general they should finally open source the operating system.
       | A close source system should not be called safe, private or
       | secure.
        
         | dev_tty01 wrote:
         | First, Apple does open source the core OS as Darwin. I
         | appreciate your perspective, but I am curious why anyone would
         | think that open sourcing the rest of it is even a remote
         | possibility?
         | 
         | As far as closed source being safe, I don't think open source
         | is safe either. We have seen some horrendous exploitable bugs
         | which lived in open source code for years. Just because
         | something can be thoroughly audited, doesn't mean it is.
         | 
         | I've personally been around a lot of years, and I'm just no
         | longer convinced that a handful of sincere and enthusiastic
         | volunteers can be better at security than a highly motivated,
         | well paid, staff of competent engineers. These systems are just
         | too complex nowadays. I get the concept of open source and
         | having the ability to review the code, etc., but in practice
         | stuff happens anyway in either case. Sorry for the rambling,
         | but I guess I'm just not so convinced any more about the
         | absolutist arguments concerning the relative merits. Maybe I'm
         | just getting too cynical...
        
       | rob-olmos wrote:
       | Another annoying mic feature was older macbooks (before T2 I
       | think) didn't have any built-in way to plug in the 3.5mm jack for
       | a mic, and the usual sound output still be the internal speakers.
       | Or an easy way to set the mic to monitor mode like in Windows.
        
       | Waterluvian wrote:
       | On the topic of closing and opening your MacBook, has anyone else
       | had an issue where with an M1 any time they open it from sleep
       | the cursor moves at like 20hz until you close it and open it
       | again?
       | 
       | It's been driving me mad and I can't find anything about it
       | online.
        
         | ryanianian wrote:
         | My M1 often wakes from sleep only to beachball and 20hz-screen-
         | refresh for 120-150 seconds. I think it's a thing with the
         | memory-management. I have to restart the machine to fix it or
         | it will happen every time I close the lid.
         | 
         | Oh, and the machine forgets its audio settings when this
         | happens, too. Always tries to revert to built-in speakers while
         | it's closed despite having a CalTech hub with speakers I've
         | selected dozens of times.
         | 
         | I don't understand why laptops continue to have such weird
         | power-management problems. I thought we fixed this stuff ages
         | ago.
        
         | BeenAGoodUser wrote:
         | I have this issue when my MacBook Pro wakes up after its
         | battery went empty, even once charged it doesn't go away and
         | you have to restart it
        
         | gjsman-1000 wrote:
         | I had an issue that drove me mad where if the battery went to
         | 0% (and macOS went into hibernate), I would then plug it back
         | in and the mouse cursor would be quite... jittery. Almost to
         | the point of unusable at the worst of it.
         | 
         | macOS 13.1? appears to have solved this problem. Better late
         | than never.
        
           | whitepoplar wrote:
           | Same here
        
           | Waterluvian wrote:
           | Oh!! I just finally updated to 13.1. I should test it out.
           | Thanks for the reminder.
        
           | renewiltord wrote:
           | Oh I had the same jittery pointer but couldn't figure out the
           | cause. Seems gone now so maybe it was fixed in the update.
        
         | possiblelion wrote:
         | Holy crap, same! I had the issue on my M1 MBP and now am having
         | the same issue with my M2 MBA. Please anyone help if they know
         | how to fix it.
        
         | jarboot wrote:
         | What fixed this for me was disabling siri
        
           | ezekg wrote:
           | If this really is the fix, I really need to know _why_.
        
             | worksonmine wrote:
             | She's using all resources to cleanup after the party she
             | had while you were gone.
        
         | tornato7 wrote:
         | I have the same exact issue on my M1 MacBook Air. You can find
         | plenty of others online with the same issue if you search
         | 'cursor lag' - however I haven't found a working solution. If
         | you figure it out please let me know!
        
           | Waterluvian wrote:
           | I'm finding results now. How did I not find these earlier?!
           | Thank you.
        
       | FollowingTheDao wrote:
       | I am getting more and more frustrated with all the things Apple
       | thinks I want my computer to do.
        
         | FollowingTheDao wrote:
         | I am glad you all disagree with my personal feelings. :^/
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | pulse7 wrote:
       | Please, just add a physical switch to disconnect the microphone
       | and camera and even battery! Why the hell do we need special
       | chips to do this? Every chip can be hacked... internet hackers
       | can't turn on physical switches...
        
         | kylehotchkiss wrote:
         | It doesn't sound like a special chip, it sounds like an optical
         | relay hooked up to a Hall effect sensor. If magnetic connection
         | is available, the optical relay will disconnect the microphone
         | entirely. They just started doing this with T2+ models.
        
         | notfed wrote:
         | Is closing the lid the only way to do this? I never use my
         | camera or mic. I'd be happy opening my laptop and switching a
         | dip switch. Does one exist? Does anyone know?
        
         | hermanb wrote:
         | It is not disconnected by "a chip". It is disconnected by
         | something that closely resembles a physical switch.
         | 
         | This is the point of the article. There is no software
         | involved. It can't be hacked.
        
       | amsterdorn wrote:
       | Too bad your phone doesn't have a privacy feature like this! The
       | advertisers are always listening.
        
         | rationalist wrote:
         | While it's plausible and certainly a risk, I don't think anyone
         | has presented any good evidence of it yet.
        
         | supriyo-biswas wrote:
         | Apple would have to make a foldable for such a feature to be
         | acceptable for their target demographic.
        
         | kaba0 wrote:
         | Anyone claiming that is just not familiar with the processing
         | requirements that would entail.
         | 
         | Especially that you leave more than enough data for advertisers
         | by simply using facebook/messenger and interacting with other
         | people, or just searching google, it simply wouldn't make
         | economic sense to create such a software/hardware which would
         | drain batteries like no tomorrow, and open them up to serious
         | backlash.
        
       | iamspoilt wrote:
       | Does that mean MacBook microphone cannot work while operating in
       | Dock mode?
        
         | havefunbesafe wrote:
         | Imagine how terribly it would work, given that the mic is
         | adjacent to the speakers.
        
         | jaysinn_420 wrote:
         | Yes, that is exactly what it means.
        
         | amf12 wrote:
         | This is an interesting use case that is worth mentioning. This
         | feature would make MacBook unusable for me unless I use a
         | Bluetooth headset.
        
         | iLoveOncall wrote:
         | Yes, and it's incredibly annoying.
        
           | mrtksn wrote:
           | I guess this fits the situation: https://xkcd.com/1172/
           | 
           | It probably wouldn't work well due to the obstruction anyway.
        
       | m3kw9 wrote:
       | When will Europe say they can do this?
        
       | CryptoBanker wrote:
       | This title is slightly confusing. I was thinking that closing my
       | MacBook disables this privacy feature
        
         | O__________O wrote:
         | Title was updated, but for context, prior to editing by HN
         | mods, HN's title for the post read, "Closing your MacBook
         | hardware disconnects microphone, safety/privacy feature" -- was
         | confusing edit made by OP; current title now mirrors title on
         | Apple.
        
       | rileymat2 wrote:
       | I know some of the reasoning, but I find it really obnoxious the
       | way it kills the wifi when switching users. I often am bouncing
       | back and forth, I get the reasoning, but it would be nice if
       | there was a setting to stop that.
        
       | unscrew5430 wrote:
       | I wonder whether one would be able to do passive sound
       | reconstruction using the laptops camera, as it isn't being
       | deactivated. I guess you would only be able to extract sounds
       | lower than ~30Hz if the camera records at 60Hz, but that should
       | be enough to detect steps for example. Not that this has real
       | privacy implications, but I think that would be a fun way of
       | disproving that no sound can be recorded.
        
       | janniks wrote:
       | I was recently trying to figure out whether the microphone is
       | usable when using my notebook in clamshell-mode. Turns out Apple
       | added a privacy/safety feature to all Apple silicon-based Mac
       | notebooks and Intel-based Mac notebooks with the Apple T2
       | Security Chip. It will hardware disconnect the microphone when
       | the lid is closed, based on the lid sensors.
       | 
       | Pretty cool safety feature!! Even though I'm sad I can't use my
       | mic in clamshell mode
        
         | dheera wrote:
         | And how are we supposed to trust Apple that this is in fact
         | what's happening?
         | 
         | With a Framework laptop I have a hardware physical switch and I
         | can actually open it up and see the PCB trace and verify that
         | it disconnects the microphone.
        
           | kaba0 wrote:
           | Hardware physical switches are a gimmick feature - if you
           | can't trust your OS to that degree, then you surely have
           | bigger problems than your microphone.
        
             | dheera wrote:
             | Of course I can never trust a closed source OS like MacOS.
             | 
             | Linux is a little better. But it's not just the OS. I might
             | be in a Google Meet call where I have given microphone
             | access, but can I trust the mute button? I'd rather have a
             | physical mute.
        
           | zamnos wrote:
           | At the point that you're opening up the laptop and chasing
           | traces, you can do the same thing with Apple devices (with a
           | bit more difficulty). It's not like they're made with
           | rainbows and moonbeams. If you're at that level of paranoia
           | (no judgement if it's justified or not) and have the skill
           | to, just open up the Apple device and chase PCB traces. If
           | you go down that route, iFixit's a good resource with lots of
           | helpful pictures. (But still sometimes not enough.)
        
             | dheera wrote:
             | If it's in-chip, it won't be with PCB traces, it would be
             | solid state inside the chip and you wouldn't be able to
             | verify without inspecting the wafer, which is way outside
             | my area of expertise. It doesn't sound like there's a
             | mechanical relay that they are using for this.
             | 
             | There's also that if it's inside the chip, there is a risk
             | that malicious software or buggy firmware can still enable
             | it against your permission.
             | 
             | With a Framework laptop you can peel back the bezel and
             | it's right there in plain sight. If the switch is in the
             | off position it's a hard physical break to the microphone
             | circuit. There is no possible software that can enable the
             | microphone.
        
               | zamnos wrote:
               | Nothing can beat a physical switch but even if it's solid
               | state, unless it's in the CPU itself (it isn't) there
               | still need to be traces in/on the PCB to bring the data
               | from the microphone to the rest of the system, so just
               | probe those traces when the lid is open vs closed. Or
               | learn how to decap chips. There are some really awesome
               | videos out there about that on YouTube!
               | 
               | More importantly though, Apple learned their lesson with
               | the iSight which had a software-based activation LED.
               | They assumed a random script kiddie wouldn't have the
               | smarts to be able to hack the kext kernel module to turn
               | the camera on without also turning the LED on.
               | Unfortunately they learned about the Internet shortly
               | thereafter where random script kiddies were able to get
               | instructions on how to modify that kext, leading to some
               | embarrassing moments, for some (possibly naked) high
               | school teens, and for Apple.
               | 
               | Thats why the linked article is very careful to
               | specifically mention that even having root and being able
               | to manipulate kexts is not enough to silently use the
               | microphone while closed.
               | 
               | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35059224
        
           | ademup wrote:
           | I would really like to know why this comment was down voted.
           | It is a perfectly valid question with a rational explanation.
           | Indeed, I was surprised to have needed to scroll down so far
           | to find it, as it was the very first question that popped
           | into my head as well.
        
             | sixothree wrote:
             | People are willing to put their love of Apple products over
             | their values for open and verifiable hardware.
        
               | manv1 wrote:
               | One could say that, given the market share, that the vast
               | majority people don't care a whit about open and
               | verifiable hardware.
        
               | sixothree wrote:
               | Agreed. But Framework does seem to prove there is _some_
               | interest. Regardless. I find it strange that people flock
               | to Apple products when Microsoft clearly embraces open
               | source in more ways than Apple.
        
         | r00fus wrote:
         | Just use a headset or external mic. If you're in clamshell
         | you're probably at your desk/home office so that's quite
         | reasonable.
         | 
         | Also nice - if I'm WFH and one of my family walks in with some
         | drama, I close the lid, go clamshell mode, and I am quite sure
         | any corporate spyware isn't listening in.
        
           | dividedbyzero wrote:
           | I wish there were good quality webcams without microphones.
           | My external microphone has a mute switch but my Streamcam mic
           | is still available to any corporate spyware.
        
             | reductum wrote:
             | I wish the same. In the meantime, I like using these
             | physical USB switches to easily disconnect my webcam when
             | not in use: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07X82661H
        
         | itslennysfault wrote:
         | [flagged]
        
         | crazygringo wrote:
         | The microphone is located inside the left speaker grille
         | anyways, so it would be terribly muffled in clamshell mode
         | anyways.
         | 
         | Note this is in contrast to previous models where the
         | microphone had a tiny hole on the left edge (next to USB-C
         | ports) and it could be used in clamshell mode.
         | 
         | Which at first I thought felt like a downgrade... but the
         | reality is that your laptop isn't usually in a good position
         | for mic pickup when it's closed anyways -- people often keep it
         | off to the side or something, under a monitor riser, etc. While
         | the speaker grille location, being front-facing rather than
         | side-facing, is far better for picking up voice when using the
         | laptop normally. And that anybody using a mic in clamshell mode
         | usually already has one in their webcam or AirPods or headset
         | or a dedicated mic anyways.
         | 
         | So all in all it seems to work out pretty well.
        
           | bilekas wrote:
           | The 2015 pro model i have is an absolute nightmare for the
           | fan as the mic was picking up the noise of the fan and so the
           | CPU was working overtime to cancel the noise leading to
           | cascading fan and heat noise.
           | 
           | Ended up just disabling it completely permanently. Was a
           | particularly bad design i think.
        
           | philsnow wrote:
           | > The microphone is located inside the left speaker grille
           | anyways, so it would be terribly muffled in clamshell mode
           | anyways
           | 
           | I don't think the hardware disable is meant as a UX
           | convenience ("let's always disable it in clamshell mode
           | because it sounds terrible"), as that could have just been
           | done in software. It's meant for people privacy-conscious
           | people who want to see a closed laptop and be able to assume
           | it's not recording.
           | 
           | Meanwhile, I'm looking at this throwaway aside in the
           | article:
           | 
           | > (The camera isn't disconnected in hardware, because its
           | field of view is completely obstructed with the lid closed.)
           | 
           | and thinking to myself that somebody is going to figure out
           | how to record audio given just the "completely obstructed"
           | view of the camera.
           | 
           | There's a long history of attackers reliably detecting
           | logging keys with audio using just inter-keystroke latency
           | and some histograms, or easily figuring out PINs tapped out
           | on a phone screen because the OS doesn't bother putting
           | access to accelerometers or gyroscopes behind an app
           | permission. Attackers get very creative, especially when
           | they're told that something is "impossible".
        
             | zamnos wrote:
             | Recording sound from a video-only device that has been
             | covered, with no hardware modifications would be a really
             | really neat trick! Using Van Eck phreaking against all
             | sorts of hardware is fascinating to me. FM radio broadcast
             | from how RAM gets accessed and things like that. Maybe
             | noise in the camera sensor can be used to pick up noise
             | from the microphone on the motherboard (which is where the
             | microphone is on Apple Silicon devices). I'm not going to
             | say it's impossible, but it seems highly unlikely given
             | everything else in play.
        
             | __MatrixMan__ wrote:
             | > There's a long history of attackers reliably detecting
             | logging keys with audio using just inter-keystroke latency
             | and some histograms
             | 
             | I wrote some fiction about this. The cosmic microwave
             | background is hiding an audio signal. It's the sound of a
             | keyswitch. Humanity uses the radio astronomy equivalent of
             | these techniques to discover which keystroke caused the big
             | bang.
        
           | prettyStandard wrote:
           | Can confirm with my older MacBook that anytime I try to use
           | the microphone with the lid closed people always complain.
        
           | j45 wrote:
           | I have leaned on the clamshell mode mic from time to time as
           | well.
           | 
           | Tbh getting a simple but high quality mic has been nice.
           | 
           | It picked up a Steelseries Tusk.
           | 
           | It was the highest recording quality I could find for in ear
           | headphone with a small boom mic for the dollar.
           | 
           | Easy to leave one each in my bag and desks if I like it. I'm
           | considering finding a way to use the mic only.
           | 
           | It doesn't hurt to be the clearest sounding person by a long
           | shot on most calls.
           | 
           | https://www.amazon.com/SteelSeries-Tusq-Mobile-Gaming-
           | Headse...
           | 
           | https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/steelseries/tusq ..
           | the recording quality section is of interest.
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | The correct solution would be to have a hardware kill switch
         | for the microphone (and camera). This is exactly what Purism
         | laptops offer.
        
           | kube-system wrote:
           | When it comes to privacy, for the vast majority of users,
           | sane defaults are better than requiring the user to take
           | manual action.
        
             | victor106 wrote:
             | Exactly!!!
             | 
             | This might seem like I am an Apple fanboy but I am not, I
             | have plenty issues with Apple products but when it comes to
             | Privacy Apple is the only company amongst the big tech we
             | can trust.
             | 
             | Microsoft, Google, Facebook are all anti-privacy and just
             | about using dar patterns to steal users info. It's
             | disgusting.
        
               | kube-system wrote:
               | I wouldn't leap that far, I'm just talking about the lid
               | switch on a laptop here.
        
               | fsflover wrote:
               | > when it comes to Privacy Apple is the only company
               | amongst the big tech we can trust
               | 
               | No, it's not:
               | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34299433,
               | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261,
               | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26644216.
        
           | j45 wrote:
           | Even if it was configurable to disable either.
        
           | matthewmacleod wrote:
           | No, that's not the "correct solution". It's _another valid
           | solution_ , with a different set of costs and benefits.
        
           | 908B64B197 wrote:
           | I'd rather have an LED on the same circuit as the microphone.
           | If it's live, it has to send current through it. Easy to
           | observe.
        
           | sdfhbdf wrote:
           | Probably not in Apple's "it just works" design philosophy.
           | Also that's another moving piece that can break.
        
             | JamesSwift wrote:
             | I mean... it doesnt seem uncommon to have people dock a
             | closed laptop so I would argue it doesnt "just work".
        
               | dymk wrote:
               | How would a microphone work with the lid closed anyways?
               | It'd be muffled. If you're docking your laptop closed,
               | you've got an external webcam / mic if you need those
               | inputs.
        
               | JamesSwift wrote:
               | The same way it used to work, by putting the input on the
               | external facing portion of the case. Or even better, have
               | both so that it can optimize for the current clamshell
               | mode.
        
               | orangepurple wrote:
               | Two+ tiny holes at the top of the lid facing upwards when
               | the lid is open and at you when the lid is closed
        
               | brutusurp wrote:
               | The position of the mic on the newer laptops is
               | unmuffled. It's actually a very high-quality signal that
               | can't be muffled. The only way to quiet it is to "kill"
               | it; disconnect it.
        
               | vbezhenar wrote:
               | Why would I need to get mic if I have it in laptop? It
               | makes very little sense to me.
        
               | dymk wrote:
               | So then you dock it with the lid open, in which case the
               | mic and camera work fine and aren't muffled...
        
               | OmarAssadi wrote:
               | For the same reason you might have other external
               | peripherals. A laptop, realistically, can only fit
               | something so decent inside of it. The 2020+ MacBooks do
               | have surprisingly OK internal mics, but that's about all
               | they are: OK.
               | 
               | Maybe I'm just an extra-big baby about it all. But what I
               | find a little annoying with the COVID-era of work-from-
               | home and distance learning is how few people seem to care
               | about audio. Even as a teenager on TeamSpeak, rather than
               | getting a more expensive graphics card or whatever, I
               | spent my money on an SM7B. Now it is more important than
               | ever.
               | 
               | Maybe this isn't reasonable, but I feel like if not for
               | yourself, to prevent "sorry, can you repeat that?"
               | moments, you kind of owe it to the people who have to
               | listen to you. Like as an autistic person, hearing a
               | dozen people's overlapping background static, tinny
               | compressed audio, etc, it really, truly slowly drives me
               | nuts. I can't deal with that level of auditory sensory
               | stuff all day. If someone has a bad microphone, I want
               | out of the call ASAP.
               | 
               | A Shure SM58 will last you a lifetime, fit on your desk,
               | cost <$100, and no one will ever complain about sound
               | again.
        
               | dividedbyzero wrote:
               | People don't know how bad they sound. It's as simple as
               | that I think, there is no easy monitor functionality in
               | Teams and friends like the preview image for camera, so
               | there is no urgency.
        
               | slavik81 wrote:
               | The laptop microphone will pick up whatever noise is in
               | the room. It's easier to filter out background noise with
               | a microphone that is closer to your mouth.
        
           | dymk wrote:
           | This is a hardware kill switch, in the form of a (set of)
           | transistors
        
             | fsflover wrote:
             | Can it be reprogrammed?
        
               | jeffbee wrote:
               | No. It is bare logic.
        
               | fsflover wrote:
               | Interesting. Note however that my comment was a reply to
               | "I can't use my mic in clamshell mode". A normal kill
               | switch would solve this.
        
           | earlyam wrote:
           | A cool feature on laptops would be a jumper you could
           | physically disconnect, and a tiny window (on say, the bottom
           | of the laptop) to verify it hasn't been reconnected.
        
             | kube-system wrote:
             | If you need a window on the case of your laptop to verify
             | that your hardware hasn't been tampered with, you've got
             | bigger problems.
        
               | meltyness wrote:
               | You're against transparent technology?
        
         | alin23 wrote:
         | In case you or anyone else needs to disable the MacBook screen
         | and still use the mic, camera, keyboard, trackpad etc. I added
         | a feature called BlackOut in my Lunar app that can do that
         | (https://lunar.fyi/#blackout).
         | 
         | This allows "clamshell mode" without closing the lid.
         | _(although some people might want to close the lid for desk
         | aesthetics, this feature is not for them)_
         | 
         | On Apple Silicon with macOS Ventura the feature can really
         | disconnect the screen by Command-clicking the power button:
         | https://shots.panaitiu.com/x52NJxpR
         | 
         | There's also a write-up on how I reverse engineered this
         | feature: https://alinpanaitiu.com/blog/turn-off-macbook-
         | display-clams...
         | 
         |  _On older systems, BlackOut mimics a disconnect by setting the
         | screen to 0 brightness and mirroring it to avoid windows
         | getting trapped there._
        
           | Firmwarrior wrote:
           | haha, that was a really interesting writeup. It looked a lot
           | like the process I end up following when I try to reverse
           | engineer something
           | 
           | The whole way through I kept wondering "Wow, I wonder how
           | he's going to tie this all together in the end!" .. and then
           | I got to the end
        
           | cscharenberg wrote:
           | This is incredible software. Thank you for linking to it. It
           | has features I've long wished for in a laptop!
        
         | samstave wrote:
         | >> _" Apple silicon-based Mac"_
         | 
         | What does "silicon-based" - mean? What other computer is not
         | 'silicon-based'?
         | 
         | --
         | 
         | Is there a way to mechanize the HW detachment of microphone
         | connections at will while using the machine open?
         | 
         | That would be great - if you had a physical switch on the side
         | of machine, which physicall moves the mic wire a mm away from
         | the contact.
         | 
         | ---
         | 
         | Weird thing - I put tape over my webcam at all times, unless in
         | use, obv.
         | 
         | After some time I received a pop-up alert on windows 11 and it
         | lasted briefly, and went away - but freaked me out: " _You
         | should unblock your webcam_ " or something to that effect, I
         | dont have the exact wording - but it was an alert telling me to
         | unblock visibility of my webcam - I think it may have mentioned
         | something about UX reasons - but it happened so quick I missed
         | all the wording.
         | 
         | Yeah - tape over your cams.
         | 
         | ----
         | 
         | It would be cool to have a phone case where is the case screen-
         | facing-flap is closed, it pulls the wool over the eyes of the
         | front-facing cams, so even in 'sleep' mode when the case is
         | closed, the phones cams are all covered... but the mic is a
         | different creature.
         | 
         | ------
         | 
         | Remember when NSA was intercepting cisco equipment to install
         | HW back doors in devices shipped to 'enemy' states.
         | 
         | We have known forever about NSA HW backdoors...
         | 
         | but a case that can manipulate the HW MIC switchoff mechanism
         | of a phone with such capability would be cool.
         | 
         | Else ; we need 100% trustworthy ability to disable our Spy-
         | Pilots.
        
           | weberer wrote:
           | "Apple Silicon" is the brand of processors.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_silicon
        
             | samstave wrote:
             | Ah, thank you.
        
           | hoosieree wrote:
           | Silicon-based, not to be confused with those nice vintage
           | germanium-based Apple products from the '60s.
        
           | sirsar wrote:
           | > >>"Apple silicon-based Mac" > What does "silicon-based" -
           | mean? What other computer is not 'silicon-based'?
           | 
           | Read as (Apple silicon)-based.
        
             | samstave wrote:
             | Thank you. Wasn't aware.
        
         | sixothree wrote:
         | I assume clamshell mode would affect heat dissipation through
         | the keyboard.
        
       | sam0x17 wrote:
       | If I'm reading correctly, this also removes one of the 20
       | potential issues with clamshell mode. Unfortunatley there are
       | still plenty of other issues with clamshell mode :/
        
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       (page generated 2023-03-07 23:00 UTC)