[HN Gopher] John Deere's ongoing GPL violations: What's next ___________________________________________________________________ John Deere's ongoing GPL violations: What's next Author : pabs3 Score : 294 points Date : 2023-03-16 15:17 UTC (7 hours ago) (HTM) web link (sfconservancy.org) (TXT) w3m dump (sfconservancy.org) | burstmode wrote: | OK, so what exactly are the John Deere programs they think are a | GPL violation ? There's no info about that in the article. | kwiens wrote: | There's more inforation in Sick Codes Jailbreak talk. | https://www.fierceelectronics.com/sensors/sick-codes-jailbre... | | The display is a full blown touchscreen GUI built using Linux | and all sorts of OSS tools. The LTE gateway is another linux | machine. | abotsis wrote: | I think, even if for the pure marketing of it, one of Deere's | competitors should seize the opportunity to offer "open" | equipment. I'm not a farmer, but I did grow up fixing my own cars | and such... I can't imagine any "killer feature" farm equipment | has that Deere provides that would require such a closed package. | Reliability and serviceability could be those killer features. | pacetherace wrote: | Farming equipment is quite expensive and typically what is used | in a particular region depends on the dealer network. And the | dealer network what gives John Deere the power to play these | dirty games. | bacchusracine wrote: | At this point it's starting to seem like the GPL was only ever a | bluff and it's being called on us now.... | | As someone who uses Linux every day this hurts and makes me | wonder what the future will be as hardware gets locked away from | us with the very tools we made to use it. | CatWChainsaw wrote: | It will be grim, since everything will be silos, and monetized, | and perhaps not even interoperable anymore, to really emphasize | the lock-in. | [deleted] | __MatrixMan__ wrote: | It's only a bluff if we do nothing about it. Maybe the | government doesn't have the enforcement spine for the job, but | if they can make it clear who is in violation, well now we have | a list of targets. We just need to create some incentives to | not be on that list. | phpisthebest wrote: | GPL for Linux is not a Bluff, it is a stated fact they (the | Linux Foundation) will not enforce it. Publically stated, and | supported by their corporate overlords... err "sponsors" | SllX wrote: | Can you cite the page? | | I found a page talking about how they won't enforce their | trademark against people who use it, but this is not the same | as not enforcing copyright. | | Thanks in advance! | phpisthebest wrote: | If you know, and followed the enactment of the "Linux | Kernel Community Enforcement Statement " [1] [2] [3] which | started out as an effort to stop a "rouge" developer from | being a copyright toll, then further devolved with | interactions with the core linux group and SFC based on a | fundamental difference in the understanding of the GPL | problem, and what GPL enforcement should be | | SFC wants to use the law as a stick, while trying to get | people to comply with out legal action. Many core members | prefer to not even engage with the threat of legal action | at all, they believe that simply asking nicely will get | companies like VmWare to comply. of course this is rarely | true but..... | | [1] https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/gregkh/ | drive... | | [2] http://kroah.com/log/blog/2017/10/16/linux-kernel- | community-... | | [3] http://kroah.com/log/blog/2017/10/16/linux-kernel- | community-... | acedTrex wrote: | GPL has always been mostly a bluff, it's occasionally attempted | to be enforced but its a drop in the bucket compared to the | ocean of infringement. | hospitalJail wrote: | This gives me hope for using Arduino and LGPL. | | I want to make a product, I don't even mind giving away the | code. I'm just worried since its an embedded system, its hard | to update or whatever. As many times as I read the legal | stuff, its over my head. I can't understand how you can let | someone update part of the code on something compiled. Its | not like I'm going to have a screen on my device to let users | read the code either. | | If someone wants to fight a legal battle, its really due to | my incompetence, not malice. | mfuzzey wrote: | >I can't understand how you can let someone update part of | the code on something compiled. | | You can provide your closed source part as a precompiled | library or object file together with the source code for | the LGPL part and build scripts that let the recipient | relink it with a (possibly modified version of) the LGPL | code to generate a new final binary. | | A pain yes but not impossible. Having a screen or not is | irrelevant, nothing says the recipient has to access the | source on the same device as the binaries run. | jimnotgym wrote: | I think it is their stated aim at sfc to enforce | compliance, not to sue. If they see you are not complying | they will ask you to comply. Doesn't sound like something | to be scared of? | saghm wrote: | IANAL, but I don't think that the part in the GPL about | modification makes any requirement that you facilitate | modifying compiled binaries. My understanding is that the | requirement is essentially that distributing the binary | requires you to distribute the source as well; if someone | modifies that source code you provide and distributes a | binary they compile from that modified code, they need to | share the modifications as source as well. | | This is also my understanding of why the AGPL was created | to try to close the loophole of running GPL code on the | backend; since running code on a server doesn't entail | distributing the server binary to people who access the | service, the GPL didn't enforce any requirements on sharing | any modifications to code that was modified and used as | part of the backend for the service. Some felt that this | went against the spirit of the GPL, so a new license that | made this also explicitly disallowed was created. | | As for the LGPL, my recollection is that it differs from | the GPL in creating an exception for dynamically linking to | the compiled binary; the phrasing of the (non-L) GPL | requires that any "derivative works" of the GPL-licensed | product (I can't remember if that's the exact term, but | it's a something similarly general) must abide by the GPL, | which could be interpreted as applying to something that | dynamically links to a library licensed under the GPL. | Licensing something under the LGPL gives permission for | users to dynamically link to your product without requiring | them to share the code linking to it. | LawTalkingGuy wrote: | For [L]GPLv2 it's super simple - release any changed code | and anything that links closely to it. If you publish all | your source you basically can't fail to do this right. | | For GPLv3, it's that simple most of the time. You talk | about embedded which suggests you may be thinking primarily | of the "tivoization" clauses designed to prevent user | lockout. Again, if you're a fully open source project this | will be hard to fail because the user should be able to | just copy whatever you do in development. It's when you try | to prevent user updates while allowing your own that this | applies. | hospitalJail wrote: | That was basically my thought, I'm just worried that if I | link to the code online, that someone could claim 'Well I | don't have internet'. Bam lawsuit. | h2odragon wrote: | I suspect that publishing it public to the internet is | sufficient. If you really wanna cover your ass offer to | mail someone the source on a CD for "reasonable handling | fees"... which can reasonably be fairly high if someone | demands such service. | zerocrates wrote: | This was changed in GPLv3. To my reading, section 6(b)(2) | means that if you're distributing a physical product, you | can just include a link to a URL where the source can be | downloaded for free. | | You _could_ read 6(b) to mean that you have to offer | consumers the choice between physical-delivery-at-cost | and for-free-download of the source... but I don 't think | that's the right reading. | joezydeco wrote: | I'll chime with my experience in embedded systems. In the | last 2-3 companies I've worked with the directive has been | "no GPLv3/LGPLv3, period. You will be fired if you ship | with it." The legal departments just don't want to deal | with it at all. | colechristensen wrote: | Is there not some sort of legal defense fund organization to | help enforce these licenses? | joe_the_user wrote: | The GPL has been validated in court many times by now. That | doesn't mean they'll win this case but there's a significant | amount of precedent protecting it at this point. | | Edit: It's remarkable to see a raft of uninformed comments | here. What's up with that? Once most people in HN knew the | story of Linux, Gnu and so forth. | ikiris wrote: | The more topics you are knowledgeable about on HN, the more | glaring the mass lack of competence the comments generally | have except for topics like algorithms. Especially on | anything bordering economics, medicine, and some others. It's | similar to knoll's law. The libertarian / austrian | (economics) skews are sometimes wild, and equally wildly | inaccurate, sometimes bordering on conspiracy / delusional | thinking. | joe_the_user wrote: | I don't think I've gotten that much more knowledgeable in | the last few years but maybe I should take that as the | explanation for HN seeming to decline - it's certainly the | most flattering possibility. | sophacles wrote: | Every now and then when I've got some time to kill I'll | go look at old comment sections (particularly when Dang | links previous iterations of a discussion) and compare it | to what I see today. It turns out that the quality hasn't | changed greatly, though viewpoints, popular gripes, etc | may have. I've discovered that a lot of my thoughts about | "hn is going to shit" are usually better phrased as "I | dislike that this viewpoint is popular now" or "I've come | around to seeing that differently". Particularly when it | turns out I preserved my old viewpoint in the form of a | comment on the old article. | | A related thing is: look through places where the crowd | skews young/newb like r/programmerhumor. You'll see | arguments, discussions, etc about things that might make | you think "I thought that was settled ages ago" but in | reality were just things you got experienced perspective | on, and/or grew out of. | | People grow and change - usually in a slow and steady way | that's hard to see in the mirror. I suspect you've picked | up a lot of knowledge and some new perspectives - a few | years is a long time! | spacechild1 wrote: | > The libertarian / austrian | | I am Austrian and I am a bit confused... | ikiris wrote: | sorry, meant specifically austrian school of economics | there. Austrians the people are cool :) | spacechild1 wrote: | No worries! TIL | goodpoint wrote: | HN is becoming the tech sibling of 4chan | return_to_monke wrote: | hn is much more ... extreme | smoldesu wrote: | Who's Unix? I only know Steve Jobs and Jim Cramer. | tssva wrote: | > That doesn't mean they'll win this case | | As of yet there is no case to win or lose. | whateveracct wrote: | This is like saying copyright is a bluff because a corporate | violates a person's rights and that person doesn't have the | resources of a corporation to immediately go after them. | sleepybrett wrote: | It's sad. My grandfather before he passed last year owned and | drove 64 1/2 mustang. Over it's lifetime he's had to repair it | now and again but it's still running great almost 60 years later. | How long until Tesla declares some year of cars no longer | maintainable? How long until they stop pushing software updates? | How long will the deny people the ability to repair their own | cars? | user3939382 wrote: | Related, check out Rossmann's new video on how they've corrupted | the Farm Bureau that's supposed to represent the farmers, and | thereby got their lobby group to surreptitiously lobby _against_ | their own industry by killing meaningful provisions in right to | repair. | | John Deere is a horrible company whose upper management needs to | be wiped from the industry. | WheatMillington wrote: | It really does beg the question, if JD is so bad why do people | keep buying them? Perhaps RTR just isn't as important to people | as the tech crowd thinks. | npteljes wrote: | Buying something is a not a simple issue, there are multiple | factors that go into the decision, and for many, buying | something is not really a decision either, because the odds | are stacked against them. Also, it might be that JD is not | horrible to each buyer equally: some might not perceive these | issues at all. And some might just treat it as a business, | and write off the grievances as business expenses. They are | okay as there are also other things to take care of. Amazon | is also a company with many criticisms, and yet, they are | very popular. And I'm sure the list goes on. | | So from an economic pov: it's a market failure. From an | individual's pov: because purchase is complex. | | Regarding your last point: "Perhaps RTR just isn't as | important to people as the tech crowd thinks." | | I agree, and still think RTR is very important. For a | comparison, take any public health issue. Are, for example, | unhealthy foods popular? Very much so. Is it still worth it | for the people to regulate it? Absolutely. Issues such as | this are not well served by treating it as a popularity | contest, because if it would be up to the children, all of | the meals would be candy. Experts, who have much deeper | insights into the workings of their area can give much better | advice. | freedomben wrote: | JD is still one of the best of the (horrible) options, and in | some areas is the only option. Also, most of the people I | have talked to about it had no idea how bad it was. They've | been buying JD all their lives and some of those purchases | stick around for decades, so many of them have other JD | equipment that is older and much more friendly. They assume | things are still the same. | kerkeslager wrote: | Ah yes, as usual, HN provides the most sociopathic take | possible within the first few comments. | CogitoCogito wrote: | > if JD is so bad why do people keep buying them? | | I guess the logical conclusion is that a company can be "bad" | and yet still have people buy from them. | | Edit: To be clear, I guess I'd just say your question is sort | of illogical. I see no reason one should assume a company | needs to be "good" for people to buy from it. | hajile wrote: | Few alternatives (when looking for equipment beyond a basic | tractor) and most are just as bad. | user3939382 wrote: | This translates to an absurd argument that anything large | companies do is right because if they didn't do right they | wouldn't be large. | | For example: Why do people keep buying BP gas after they were | responsible for one of the biggest environmental disasters in | history? Maybe people don't care about the environment? | | The answer in all cases is that being a wealthy company with | a lot of market penetration doesn't mean your actions are | ethically or morally right, or that your customers agree with | them. | spenczar5 wrote: | Just as nobody was ever fired for buying IBM, nobody was ever | fired for buying a Deere. | ronsor wrote: | Speaking generally and not just about RTR, people often | recognize something is "wrong" and that they're negatively | affected, but they also don't really understand what's going | on, so they can't do much other than complain when they get | screwed over. | inetknght wrote: | > _if JD is so bad why do people keep buying them_ | | Why do people keep buying Samsung or Apple when there are | better products? They certainly don't respect the right to | repair either. | | Likewise, people buy JD because it's a well-known brand. | | If you asked people what they wanted 100 years ago, they | would say they wanted a faster horse. It's hard to advocate | for something that people don't realize they don't have. | MikusR wrote: | There is a better phone with stylus than the one Samsung | makes? | fossuser wrote: | > Why do people keep buying Samsung or Apple when there are | better products? | | Because there aren't better products? Knowing nothing, I'd | suspect the same of JD. | WheatMillington wrote: | Farmers are pretty knowledgeable about the equipment | they're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on. The | idea they're just picking JD because of name recognition is | insulting. | chasil wrote: | I understand that, when they work, the products are | amazing, even up to the point that Deere can obtain | satellite imagery of a farm and work it autonomously, | without the owner of the equipment present. | | Many times, the products do not work, and repair is | locked to approved equipment that is confirmed and | authorized remotely - no authorization, no repair, no | operational equipment. | | The last Defcon conference shattered the control that the | corporation is able to exercise over this equipment, | because of bad security design. There is a major effort | to rethink (and improve) this control, but everything on | the market now is irretrievably broken from the | perspective of the embedded electronics preventing | unauthorized repairs. | | There are other problems, one involving a fatality at a | recent union strike, the GPL violations above, right to | repair, and the (lack of) staff to correctly address said | adversity. | | It will be interesting to see what transpires. | wander_homer wrote: | Maybe I'm just in my small bubble and/or the situation in | Germany is quite different, but when I look at the farms | in the area I grew up in, including my father's farm, | then most of them are absolutely loyal to whatever brand | their family has been using for centuries. My father | didn't even test or look at others brands when he bought | his tractors. | tick_tock_tick wrote: | > Why do people keep buying Samsung or Apple when there are | better products? | | Because most people don't care about the right to repair or | are completely uniformed. Neither of which should apply to | a professional farmer. | mistrial9 wrote: | individual decision makers on farms are systematically | replaced by corporate farming over decades; restricting sales | to authorized dealers, and assigning those dealers exclusive | territory, was done systematically for the last seventy | years. If JD dismantles effective competition in the 1970s, | who exactly is there to provide competitive alternatives? It | is a "captured market" in the USA. "view from the City" | lyubalesya wrote: | [dead] | tcmart14 wrote: | My understanding, most farmers are backed into a corner where | there is not a viable option to go with someone else. JD has | extensively made access to repair facilities convenient and | sometimes for many farmers, it is the only repair center | remotely. If they go with a tractor from a different brand | and it does need to be taken to a repair facility, you may | have to ship it or drive it a long way or wait for a tech | travel to your farm. This might mean your tractor is out of | service for weeks. But JD has repair centers all over and JD | can turn your tractor around in 3 days or less. | | In highschool, I worked a couple seasons picking tobacco. | Farmers love to be able to repair their tractors. Repair and | maintenance work is something that can also give them | something to do over the winter when they are not working the | fields much if they limp along until then. Most farmers | purchase them because as mentioned, there isn't really a | reasonable alternative in the event it is something that | actually does need to "go into the shop." I also would not be | surprised if most of JD's sales were from corporate farms and | smalls farmers are still using their grand daddy's tractor. | The farm I worked on, the farmer was still using a 50 year | old international harvester. Doing all of his own maintenance | and repair work. | fxtentacle wrote: | "Seems to be standard practice for Chinese companies" | | "Stop the sale of products that violate licenses in markets the | US controls" | | It seems Xiaomi is in good company ;) | firstlink wrote: | After two years, the SFC is escalating to "asking publicly". Wow, | they really are great stewards of the copyrights which have been | assigned to them! | worik wrote: | The legal system is glacial | | "Justice delayed, is justice denied " is supposed to be one of | the principles of jurisprudence, it seems to have been | forgotten | zamalek wrote: | How quickly does copyright get addressed when it comes to | e.g. RIAA? | tapoxi wrote: | How is it glacial? This is resolved with a copyright | infringement lawsuit. Filing the suit is entirely on them. | kmeisthax wrote: | Yes, but the endgame of the GPL is not to generate | copyright infringement lawsuits[0]. It's to compel | modifiers of the code to license their changes back and | respect user freedom - i.e. to keep the software | effectively uncopyrighted. | | If you sue in a court of law, they will give you money | damages, and _maybe_ an injunction specifically requiring | the developer delete their copy of the program. Under no | circumstances will a court demand specific performance of | GPL obligations to release source code. But that 's what | the SFC wants. So the only way to get people to comply with | the GPL is to use the threat of a lawsuit to encourage | compliance. | | This is contrary to what we normally think of with | copyright litigation, but that's mostly because the | lawsuits we see are either breakdowns of negotiation, or | against individual infringers and pirate sites that would | _never_ be granted a license under any circumstances | whatsoever. When you want a licensee to actually _do | something_ , you are better off _threatening_ litigation | and negotiating rather than going straight to the nuclear | option. | | [0] Nobody told that to the Lawnmower Man[1] unfortunately | | [1] Larry Ellison | nier wrote: | Did you just anthropomorphize Larry Ellison? | serf wrote: | it sometimes strengthens a metaphor to anthropomorphize | the non human entities. | worik wrote: | > How is it glacial? | | These cases take years | | In other parts of the (in)justice system people languish in | jail, and on bail, waiting for their day in court. | | The legal systems of Western "democracies " have become a | money fountain, and are loosing the sense of justice | SllX wrote: | Filing a suit does not take years. If you know you have a | case, decide if you're going to sue, if yes, then you | bang out the paperwork and file it with the appropriate | court. Trying to fight what ought to be a lawsuit through | PR isn't going to get you any closer to an injunction or | discovery but is a red flag that maybe the one engaging | in the PR battle doesn't feel confident they have a case. | | EDIT: I dug into it a little. SFC appears to be dug into | a lawsuit against Vizio. It makes sense, even law firms | have finite resources, and there's some indication that | the outcome of this lawsuit could give a clearer | indication of the viability of a suit against John Deere. | My original point on the time it takes to file a suit | stands though. | simoncion wrote: | > Filing a suit does not take years. | | Correct. Closing out the suit takes years. As was said: | | > These cases take years | neilv wrote: | I'd prefer something a bit closer to the other end of the | spectrum of defending open software licenses. | | The other end of the spectrum might be an outcome like "Some | GPL library authors find themselves suddenly owning a major | farming machinery company". :) | elkos wrote: | Me too. If the risk of not adhering to a license is minimal, | a for-profit organization has fewer incentives to do so. | | The US copyright law is draconian, copyright violations are | felony violations with 10 years prison and 100k$ fines, the | Aaron Swartz taught us that. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-03-16 23:01 UTC)