[HN Gopher] Leaving China
___________________________________________________________________
Leaving China
Author : jseliger
Score : 168 points
Date : 2023-03-19 18:02 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.persuasion.community)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.persuasion.community)
| xiaolingxiao wrote:
| Can other expats who has since left, or have decided to stay,
| share their experience as well?
| hayst4ck wrote:
| I am not an expat, but I was considering spending several
| months in China.
|
| After Hong Kong, there was a strong message of "Americans
| caused this," likewise after covid there was a strong message
| of "this didn't start in China, this actually started in
| America."
|
| It wasn't just a message of "America is our enemy," but looking
| at how the People in Hong Kong were robbed of due process from
| an impartial justice system it was clear that if there was a
| problem we would also not get due process.
|
| The Canadians arrested without due process in response to
| Huawei leaders being arrested was another story that says
| "China might do bad things to you in response to things you
| don't have control over."
|
| As an American I felt it was made clear that we were the enemy
| and we would not get due process.
|
| I was planning to spend several months in China, but chose not
| to because of Hong Kong. My choice was re-inforced because of
| the covid response.
|
| I am open to the idea that international media was being unfair
| to China, but I had experiences which made me realize this was
| not the case.
|
| - I met a person who just got out of china. She was an early
| 20s English teacher who didn't know why she was put in prison,
| but spent a couple weeks in Chinese prison until the US state
| department said 'give her back, now.' She figured she failed
| some kind of political question she was asked or made a
| statement about Taiwan she shouldn't have. She said she
| probably would still be there if her boyfriend hadn't called
| the US state department saying he hasn't heard from her and
| didn't know what happened.
|
| - Another woman I met on a plane said that the people who ran
| the school she taught at threatened to revoke her visa trapping
| her in China. She said she was leaving for "vacation" but was
| not going to go back. She was also visibly shaken.
|
| - A Hong Kong person I met broke down the way China was
| destroying Hong Kong culture and acting like an imperial ruler.
|
| - Hong Kong went from feeling like a lively place to feeling
| like a dominated place. The energy left the city.
|
| - Seeing the video of Triads in the train station made it clear
| that the Chinese government was in bed with organized crime.
| Seeing triads be the foot soldiers of the CPC was something I
| had never seen before. It made it clear that if China wanted to
| achieve a goal, it would use any method regardless of how right
| or wrong it is. It was just one more element of "our legal
| system is pretext, we will do what we want."
|
| - I spent some time in China with a Chinese woman and she was
| constantly "correcting" me about any implication that Hong Kong
| or Taiwan was a country. It made me realize that I can't just
| hide my beliefs, they will manifest in my language, and that
| will put me at risk.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| > "this didn't start in China, this actually started in
| America."
|
| How did the reasoning work here? Not sure if this speaks to
| poor education, propaganda, something else, or all of the
| above.
| simonh wrote:
| There's a conspiracy theory propagated in China that Covid
| was a biological weapon spread in Wuhan by Americans
| visiting during an international sporting event in late
| 2019.
| dumpster_fire wrote:
| [dead]
| elbigbad wrote:
| Probably the same way conservative media portrays US
| joblessness as starting from other countries and their
| immigrants, and it's clear that people who consume that
| media really buy into that way of thinking. People in echo
| chambers are particularly vulnerable to this sort of
| propaganda I expect.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| I get what you're saying. I haven't seen that example
| from conservative media though. Most of the narratives I
| see center around illegal immigration, drugs, drain on
| social services, etc.
| paganel wrote:
| Based on organisations like the infamous NED [1].
|
| [1] https://www.ned.org/region/asia/hong-kong-china-2021/
| nonethewiser wrote:
| > Another woman I met on a plane said that the people who ran
| the school she taught at threatened to revoke her visa
| trapping her in China. She said she was leaving for
| "vacation" but was not going to go back. She was also visibly
| shaken.
|
| I know someone working as an architect in China and
| apparently his company holds onto his college degree. Hes
| concerned he won't get it back if he doesn't remain on good
| terms. I was told this is a common arrangement.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| What does that mean? College degrees aren't like passports.
| Can't you just order a new copy? I haven't seen my college
| degree in 15 years
| mschild wrote:
| I'm not sure I understand this. How are they holding on to
| his degree? A physical copy? Couldn't he just ask his
| University for another one?
| WheatMillington wrote:
| This reads like it was written by someone cosplaying as an
| adult. A college degree is not an irreplaceable piece of
| paper to be guarded with your life - otherwise it would
| live in a vault somewhere. You can trivially have the
| certificate reprinted.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| Do you think I'm lying? Asking because the cosplaying
| comment. Your reasoning is not lost on me but I see no
| reason to suggest Im being dishonest.
|
| If it's that simple he will be relieved to here it.
| Frankly I'm not sure why it's such a big deal either.
| baybal2 wrote:
| I've been working in, and out of South China since 2009, and
| have called it quit 2019, when it became clear the industry was
| done for, and CoVID mess only reinforced my decision.
|
| I never held any fraternal feelings with the country, even
| though I am ethnic Chinese, nor I had any delusions about
| making long term plans there.
|
| In my years there, I kept seeing rose coloured glasses wearing
| American expats. I met Tim Cook during his first travels to
| China as CEO at some random event in Shenzhen, only to see him
| regurgitate the official drivel.
|
| Since around 2016, I kept seeing more and more Western high
| flyers coming to official events there, seemingly trying to
| network with locals, and only to see them freak out at that.
|
| My regular conversation with them:
|
| - it's a damn communist regime, do your business and get out
|
| - no, it's different! there is no more communisms in China! no,
| it's state capitalism! no, things will change! no, I have a
| special plan from EY China expert!
|
| Most of them lived there for 2-3 years, and got out just as I
| told when the truth hit them. In the end, I outlived all of
| them there.
|
| China is a communist regime, though a very well doing for some
| years.
| chasil wrote:
| You have a decisive level of bravery for your willingness to
| say this.
|
| I applaud you for your clarity on the country of your
| ancestors. It is a shame.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| I see comment chains touching on this topic in nearly every
| post even tangentially related to China, and it's rarely
| ever that the main issue is mentioned. So I'll write this
| for the benefit of any passing reader with a similar
| worldview.
|
| In a country of 1.x billions it shouldn't be surprising
| that there would be at least a few tens of millions of
| hardcore, actual socialists, who genuinely believe in some
| distant future communist utopia.
|
| Even if the entire rest of the population were the most
| perfect paragons of virtue imaginable, it's still likely
| going to be the hardcore folks willing to fight to the
| death en bloc that end up with the actual power. That's
| just how the cookie crumbles in every country.
|
| Whether it's ultra-Maoists in China, or ultra-Hindus in
| India, or ultra-muslims in Islamic countries, ultra-
| Orthodox Jews in Israel, etc..
|
| The real question is whether or not the bulk of the
| hardcore group can be enticed with enough potential rewards
| to moderate their views.
|
| Wealth
| baybal2 wrote:
| The fallacy of "reformed communism" hopers is that with
| development came not their hoped reform, but even stronger
| regime, and harder life.
|
| Way more, many times more rich Chinese are fleeing China now,
| when it reached some level of wealth, and industrialisation,
| than back 10-15 years ago, when China was incomparably
| poorer, and everyday life was incomparably harder.
|
| All of that was easily predictable. You have a terrible
| regime, you give it money, and power. It only becomes
| stronger, and more terrible, not less.
|
| Communism is irreformable.
| yibg wrote:
| I spent 3 years in China before Covid. Happened to be out of
| the country during initial lockdown and that was that. My
| experiences are pre Covid so things may be different now, I
| don't know.
|
| Pros:
|
| - very vibrant, never bored even though when I went I didn't
| know anyone really
|
| - I was paid a Silicon Valley salary so high income compared to
| the typical local. Can afford a very nice lifestyle
|
| - due to demographics and being an "actual" expat, as opposed
| to English teacher, was respected
|
| Cons:
|
| - general quality of life. Traffic, pollution, food and water
| safety etc
|
| - can be hard to make deep connection except with other expats.
| Just different cultures and values.
|
| - lack of freedom and censorship. Vpn needed for everything,
| and even then doesn't always work. Certain topics are avoided
|
| - there is a surface level fakeness that I personally really
| dislike.
|
| It's a fun place to be for a while when you have the income and
| status. But for me at least not a place to be long term.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| You were paid ~150k+ USD in China, from a Chinese employer?
| dumpster_fire wrote:
| [dead]
| tiny_ta wrote:
| It's so interesting to read this perspective since it drives home
| "the grass is always greener.." for me. I've lived a pretty
| charmed life in the US for the past few years (like the majority
| of HN, I imagine) but I find myself longing to move to a country
| with dense cities, affordable housing in the city center, great
| public infrastructure and a modicum of agreement among the
| citizens and China fits the bill pretty great for me. I
| understand that it might come at the cost of some personal
| freedom but I'm willing to pay that price for a great society in
| return. But reading this makes me think this is part of "the
| human condition" - the more time we spend in a bubble in a place,
| the more we either become blind to it's shortcomings or become
| overly rosy about a foreign place that would solve all our
| problems.
|
| As a sidenote, the author says he does not like his kids playing
| "war" in Chinese playgrounds - I wonder how he will feel about
| the active shooter drills that are now part of every kids life in
| the US.
|
| Note: I'm not Chinese.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| You should move to China and buy one of those affordable houses
| in the city center.
| nazka wrote:
| I don't understand. Why not Europe?
|
| There are so many great countries/cities in Europe for exactly
| what you are looking for! And much more. You will avoid all the
| negative points from China that someone listed on another
| comment. While improving your life beyond work. 1-3 hours to so
| many wide destinations from Paris to London, Amsterdam, Oslo,
| Jerusalem... All while beyond guns you will have same to more
| freedom. Less crime. On the health side unless you need the
| best surgeon in the field, you will find overall better
| healthcare across all level. Education is great to on part with
| the best (for kids with countries like Norway or Sweden it's
| definitely the best. Others are catching up). And I can go on
| and on with cost of living compare to major US cities, the
| variety of cultures, landscapes, way of life etc...
|
| I think of Americans are easy to the idea to leave the US and
| sacrifice some things, they will find a wide range of
| interesting opportunities.
| tiny_ta wrote:
| Europe is definitely on my list! Some things like economic
| conditions in the likes of UK and Germany give me pause, but
| I would love to live in all these different places and
| experience life there. Such a short life and so many places
| to be (and such tedious immigration forms)!
| The_Colonel wrote:
| > I understand that it might come at the cost of some personal
| freedom but I'm willing to pay that price for a great society
| in return.
|
| Does China provide that? Honest question, I don't know much
| about it.
|
| I visited Beijing once, and it ranks on the bottom of the
| cities I'd like to live in. Of course, it's just my personal
| impression and Beijing is obviously not representative of the
| whole China.
| askonomm wrote:
| This hits home for me a lot. I've lived in Spain, Argentina and
| Finland, all in hoping to fill whatever gap I thought it would,
| whether that would be life quality, weather, culture or
| whatever. But after the honeymoon period, the cracks started to
| show at every place. I'm now back in my home country, Estonia,
| which I (now) think is the best for me - but that creeping
| feeling of something better being somewhere out there is hard
| to shake, and still with me, even as I try to not think about
| that.
| shanebellone wrote:
| Interesting. Estonia was my top pick in the EU.
|
| In retrospect, were you searching or escaping?
| tiny_ta wrote:
| Thank you for sharing your experience. I'm Indian and I'm on
| my third country I've lived in now. I'm beginning to think I
| should learn to be optimistic and appreciative about wherever
| I live than trying to find that perfect country to settle
| down :)
| chasil wrote:
| There is no place, and no time, where people are better than
| what you see before you right now.
|
| Sometimes, the political system is better.
|
| People? There is nothing new under the sun.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| This a a strange postmodern take. All places and cultures
| are really equal?
|
| Maybe Im missing your point, but to take a hyperbolic
| example, surely you wouldn't live in north Korea and say
| "There is no place, and no time, where people are better
| than what you see before you right now."
| cutemonster wrote:
| I'm afraid your example is not at all hyperbolic --
| instead, such places and worse, are and have been common
| throughout the ages ...
|
| (Agreeing with you btw)
| rdevsrex wrote:
| I don't agree. Yes in one sense people are all the same.
| But differences in each country really do matter. As do
| cultural differences.
|
| I grew up in the US but I've lived in South Africa for
| nearly 10 years. I've also lived in Switzerland and Mexico.
|
| So I've seen enough of a range of how people live to know
| there are better and worse conditions. Maybe there is no
| true perfect country or culture, but there are definitely
| tradeoffs.
|
| You might love the culture and hate the government, or love
| the government but hate the culture.
|
| Like I love how friendly South Africans are, but my God the
| government is so corrupt. I love how the Swiss government
| works, but Swiss people aren't known for being easy to make
| friends with. God forbid you flush the toilet after 10pm.
|
| So depending on what you are optimizing for, some places
| really are better than others.
| precompute wrote:
| That's very interesting, what made you leave those countries?
| Argentina likely has money issues, but the other two come
| very "highly recommended" (high quality of life, law & order,
| etc), especially Finland.
| majormajor wrote:
| In 2014 I worked with a company in Beijing for a few weeks. The
| local engineers all had pretty long and packed subway commutes
| from various outer developments, so my first guess would be
| that "affordable housing in the city center" is long gone for
| most major cities.
|
| The surface-level infrastructure was interesting, it felt like
| Los Angeles - much more than it did Manhattan or SF aboveground
| - just blown up 3-to-5x. Wider streets with more lanes of cars,
| big mega apartment complexes just all four times taller than
| the common 5-story ones, etc.
| livueta wrote:
| +1, at least anecdotally, at least in T1 cities: I spent a
| few months in Shanghai for work in 2018 and all of my local
| colleagues had messed up housing situations of one flavor or
| another. One guy lived alone in a shoebox but when he had a
| free weekend, he'd take the train ~2h out to a smaller city
| where his family lived in a decent house. There were also a
| lot of complaints about apartment quality even/especially in
| new construction.
|
| The drive from central-ish Shanghai (Wujiaochang) to PVG was
| mindblowing because of the scale and frequency of the
| apartment megablocks ringing the city: identical enormous
| tower after identical enormous tower, lining the wide (but at
| the time oddly empty) thoroughfares. Felt like an alt opening
| scene to a Judge Dredd movie.
| majormajor wrote:
| With the folks I was working with it wasn't "messed up" in
| any way, it just was hardly any more relatively affordable
| give local wages than most big cities in the US.
|
| Some fun/awkward differences though. For instance, I had
| imagined it would be easy to find a laundromat - I didn't
| want to pay the hotel prices for cleaning. Ended up almost
| accidentally offending the people I was asking - "why would
| we need to go somewhere to do our laundry, we have laundry
| machines, we aren't poor" - while since a lot of US cities
| are older in the dense parts of town, laundry machines in-
| unit were less common even for sometimes pretty pricey
| places.
|
| One of my big takeaways is that development is a lot easier
| and cheaper than redevelopment. Building a ton of new
| housing? Put in today's amenities! It might be crappy
| quality even in "luxury" new construction (whether here or
| there) but it's gonna be a lot easier than retrofitting
| into a bunch of units from 50 years ago. Want a QR-
| code/app-based payment system to take off? It's gonna be
| easier if you're one of the first widespread options to
| replace cash (like in China at the time) vs if you're
| competing with ubiquitous credit/debit cards in the US.
| Really illustrative of how things are path-dependent - and
| why I'm bearish on "super apps" replacing what we already
| have here.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| I used to think that way about WeChat but I don't
| anymore. The reason stores use credit payment networks in
| the West is because it's better. We have cash
| transferring apps but we don't use them for a reason.
| Meanwhile, China does not have the same type of payment
| networks.
| another_story wrote:
| Ahh yes, China, with its brutal Darwinian rush hour on the
| metro. The experience of needing to shove aside a 70 year old
| women with her grocery trolley who doesn't understand you need
| to wait until people get off before you get on.
|
| That affordable downtown housing which is on par with costs in
| Manhattan, where you'll hear someone renovating until 9pm every
| night and smell the sewage gas wafting from bathroom drains
| because what's a u-trap and inadequate underlying
| infrastructure.
|
| Agreement between citizens that if they can cheat the laowai,
| or any mark really, or cut someone's line then they will.
|
| Try living there for a bit. It's nice enough if you don't mind
| seeing the sun a few weeks a year through the smog.
|
| China is actually fun to live in, but it's not a good place to
| live if you value your health, physical or mental. At least not
| the cities.
| winrid wrote:
| The bathroom drain thing is so true. I documented that in a
| bunch of cities all the way from Xinjiang to Beijing. I don't
| get why they don't install u-traps. There were a couple of my
| hotels that had them, but most did not. This includes
| someone's home I stayed in.
|
| When I asked a local about it they got very angry, like I was
| insulting them. The need to save face in China is real. But I
| get it, "who is this American who thinks they can tell us how
| to do things?"
|
| I didn't find the smog to be bad everywhere, though. Beijing
| was pretty bad in the morning/early afternoon. But from what
| I remember Chengdu was nice smog/weather wise.
| lr4444lr wrote:
| I dunno, man. Net migration numbers don't lie.
| freitzkriesler2 wrote:
| I've lived in China and I can tell you, you will NOT like China
| especially for the reasons you've stated.
|
| China has a ton of problems that aren't readily apparent unless
| you are feet on the ground. The majority of the culture of
| china is, "dog eat dog" in that you will be scammed and taken
| advantage of unless you speak fluent Mandarin.
|
| You will run into problems with excessive Chinese bureaucracy
| both with the government and services you need. The only way to
| break through is with a bribe.
|
| Things we take for granted like food and product safety are
| secondary.
|
| In the first month, I got incredibly sick for a food born
| parasite (this was from a good grocery store too nonetheless).
|
| Don't ever eat from street vendors (google gutter oil).
|
| You also run the risk of getting physically attacked when
| relations with America are rough. I heard stories of a guy that
| got jumped by a group of chinese men after Trump was elected.
| He didn't even vote for him and the police did not care.
|
| China is the type of place you visit, make a bunch of money,
| and get out.
|
| In all honesty, you'd be happier living in a 2nd or 3rd tier
| Benelux or Dach town.
| tiny_ta wrote:
| Thank you for sharing your experience - I appreciate that a
| lot of my views around China (and even DACH where I've also
| considered moving to) may be too rosy. I will definitely
| visit any place a few times before I move there!
| auggierose wrote:
| What is a Dach town?
| kosmos1337 wrote:
| DACH stands for Germany, Austria, Switzerland.
| dEnigma wrote:
| A town in Germany (D for "Deutschland"), Austria (A) or
| Switzerland (CH).
|
| Seems that term isn't common in English.
|
| https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-A-CH
|
| https://www.statista.com/topics/4623/dach-
| countries/#dossier...
| duxup wrote:
| There's a wonderful skit from Portlandia about a couple who
| visit Spain and come back and everything is now a reflection of
| what they saw there. They can't help but talk about it...
| constantly.
|
| I think it's hard to really "know" a place, and frankly your
| experience anywhere will vary.
|
| Granted sometimes people just need a change.
| FpUser wrote:
| >"I understand that it might come at the cost of some personal
| freedom but I'm willing to pay that price for a great society
| in return."
|
| Fuck that. Our freedoms are already getting screwed by various
| acts of governments. Personal freedom is the most valuable
| thing for me.
| jzb wrote:
| Serious question, if you have to sacrifice personal freedom,
| what does the great society look like you are willing to
| sacrifice it for? What freedoms are you willing to give up for
| what societal benefit?
|
| I'm genuinely curious because every person defines personal
| freedom differently. And great society is very subjective.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| Im curious as well because everyone is an individual and no
| one is a society. So who exactly are we sacrificing
| individuality for?
| thefounder wrote:
| Some are selling their freedom quite cheap. It's really
| nothing new/hard to imagine.
| tiny_ta wrote:
| I appreciate your question because I have spent a lot of time
| in the past thinking about this :)
|
| > I'm genuinely curious because every person defines personal
| freedom differently. And great society is very subjective.
|
| I couldn't agree more! I believe that all of us have to give
| up some personal freedom if we want to live in a functional
| society. I may want to blast music from my rooftop at 3AM but
| I must curb that urge out of respect for the society I live
| in. How much of this personal freedom we are willing to give
| up is different for different people. On this spectrum, I
| think I lie towards giving up more if it gives me a
| comfortable society in return.
|
| I am willing to mask up if it means that fewer people in my
| vicinity may "possibly" get sick less. I am okay with video
| cameras and facial recognition in public places if it means
| less crime in my neighborhood. I am willing to pay more taxes
| if it means public infrastructure can be improved and schools
| can get better teachers. I might be wrong though, because
| these things can clearly be taken to an extreme.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| Are you really giving up personal freedom if you're
| consciously deciding not to do something out of
| consideration for others?
|
| Usually it becomes a problem because you are infringing on
| someone else's personal freedom. So it's still about
| maximizing personal freedom in that case.
| claytongulick wrote:
| I appreciate your perspective, because it's one that I've
| so often found confounding.
|
| > I think I lie towards giving up more if it gives me a
| comfortable society in return
|
| It seems like you are very practical minded, which I
| appreciate.
|
| I think the fundamental skepticism that those of us who
| tend to be more "libertarian" minded is whether you're
| actually getting value in return for giving up liberties.
|
| > I am willing to mask up if it means that fewer people in
| my vicinity may "possibly" get sick less.
|
| I think this was the mentality of the majority of people
| who supported universal masking, and I think it came from a
| genuinely good place. The issue that I had with it was the
| lack of evidence to support universal masking, and the
| draconian implementation without regard to potential
| negative consequences. It struck me at the time as being
| the TSA of pandemic response, more theater than effective
| intervention. Time and research seem to have borne this
| out.
|
| > I am okay with video cameras in public places if it means
| less crime in my neighborhood.
|
| Except they don't on their own [1], but they are an
| incredible weapon and boost in power granted to the
| surveillance state.
|
| > I am willing to pay more taxes if it means public
| infrastructure can be improved and schools can get better
| teachers.
|
| The relationship between taxes and education outcomes is
| complex (at best) [2], and you need only live in the North
| East for a short period of time, pay those exorbitant taxes
| and drive 95 and the Jersey Turnpike to understand that
| higher taxes don't necessarily translate to better
| infrastructure.
|
| Drive from New Mexico, through Texas, Louisiana,
| Mississippi to Florida sometime and compare the roads and
| bridges.
|
| I've lived all over the U.S. and experienced the difference
| between many states. They each have unique challenges, but
| I can tell you one rule that's held true in all my travels:
| granting more power and money to the government past a
| certain point doesn't translate into a better quality of
| life for the people.
|
| [1] https://www.mtas.tennessee.edu/knowledgebase/there-
| empirical...
|
| [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2019/01/21/a-c
| onnec...
| kurthr wrote:
| I'd encourage you to study Mandarin for a year or so and look
| into what the non-influencer set is saying about China. My
| first trip to China was in 1999 and my last in 2019. That was a
| time of amazing freedom and growth. Beijing went from bicycles
| to cars to subways and everything was growing. It's not like
| that now, youth unemployment is very high, foreigners are not
| welcome, and you really can't imagine the political and
| economic situation you're walking into. One simply does not
| publicly discuss problems there without considering the
| consequences.
|
| Columbine was 1999. I think he'll be more surprised by the
| level of political division and general impoliteness there is
| in the US.
| tiny_ta wrote:
| Thank you for your balanced view! I will definitely learn the
| language and visit the place a few times before I consider
| moving anywhere :)
| scrubs wrote:
| I'd encourage everyone to read:
|
| https://globalbrief.ca/2020/06/zeal-and-chinas-wolf-
| warrior-...
|
| This goes way further than most to explain "Chinese
| characteristics" (my term usage not link's).
|
| China is very complex and belies any simple summary. I
| definitely think it's a vastly smarter state than Russia...
| who by comparison it must now regard as a baby sitting
| project.
| dirtyid wrote:
| >dense cities, affordable housing in the city center, great
| public infrastructure and a modicum of agreement among the
| citizens
|
| ...
|
| >China fits the bill
|
| All those things may exist but sheer concentration of
| population = QoL / "dynamism" still gets very uncomfortable and
| cut throat. PRC pace = good cities with livable QoL mix rapidly
| develop until they're not. Hence you get expat commends like
| Chongqin reminds me of Shanghai in 2000s. On the otherhand,
| plenty of big cities at varying degrees of development to
| bounce around, but that's a very different life style.
| slowmotiony wrote:
| "As a sidenote, the author says he does not like his kids
| playing "war" in Chinese playgrounds - I wonder how he will
| feel about the active shooter drills that are now part of every
| kids life in the US. Note: I'm not Chinese."
|
| Well obviously, since if you were Chinese you'd know that kids
| in China are doing drills to protect themselves against psychos
| with knives who attack schools. Like actual grownups with
| machetes randomly killing children. Those attacks are happening
| all the time by the way.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| > pay that price for a great society in return
|
| You're not just paying in your own freedoms. You're paying in
| the freedoms of others, like the Muslims that the Chinese
| government have decided aren't compatible with the "great
| society" that you seek.
| thefounder wrote:
| There are worse places for muslims than China as far as human
| rights are concerned. I feel the whole muslim issue in China
| is just a pretext. Have we forgot about Saudi Arabia or
| whatever mess is left in Afghanistan?
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Last week my six year old tried to justify his bad
| behaviour because his little brother did something worse. I
| didn't buy it, and I don't here either.
| thefounder wrote:
| Well, if you would keep signaling your six year old and
| ignore the "deeds" of his little brother I would say you
| are biased and have something against your six years old.
| Also what made you punish the bad behaviour all of a
| sudden?
|
| It's not like China was a beacon of human rights until
| "now". I don't think SA is really a little brother
| either. They still behead people in public squares. The
| whole "human rights" issue in China is really just a
| pretext and use of U.S soft power to isolate China. But
| "everyone" know that at stake is really the economic and
| millitary rivality. The U.S couldn't really care less
| about the muslims in China. Just look how much it cares
| about women in Afghanistan. Let's stop pretending we are
| little children. China is starting to influence our way
| of life and we should push against that but I just hate
| the B.S pretexts. It feels like propaganda and we hate
| propaganda, don't we?
| claytongulick wrote:
| I'm trying to understand the point you're making.
|
| Are you making the argument that because there are things
| that are possibly worse, we should ignore the bad?
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > but I find myself longing to move to a country with dense
| cities, affordable housing in the city center, great public
| infrastructure and a modicum of agreement among the citizens
| and China fits the bill pretty great for me. I understand that
| it might come at the cost of some personal freedom but I'm
| willing to pay that price for a great society in return.
|
| Hope you are white. If so, I'm certain you'll have a great
| experience. You'll be shown the modernity and good side of
| living under the regime, and probably made to believe they are
| the rightful holders of the "Mandate of Heaven". Make sure to
| stay in Han dominated areas, and don't document of film
| anything that could make the regime lose face.
|
| > Note: I'm not Chinese.
|
| Why are you explicitly spelling it out? So we don't immediately
| assume this is propaganda?
|
| Don't worry. If they like you enough, you'll even get paid for
| comments like these!
| hayst4ck wrote:
| Taiwan is everything that is good about China, with very little
| of what is bad.
|
| The drawback of Taiwan is that there isn't nearly the level of
| "white monkey" opportunities and you aren't as exotic.
|
| China is also more extreme. You will have more extreme positive
| experiences and more extreme negative experiences.
| jasonjei wrote:
| I used to travel to China all the time for work during my first
| job in 2008. Those times were super optimistic. Hong Kong was
| filled with Chinese pride, and it seemed inevitable that China
| would absorb Taiwan. China had just hosted the Olympics.
|
| I visited Hong Kong late 2018 after many years of not having been
| there. It was a very different place from the Hong Kong I had
| visited in 2009-2011. The energy was a bit darker. It almost felt
| like another Chinese city. I had even been to HK several times
| when I was in middle school in Taiwan (I was born in America, but
| was a "reverse import" to Taiwan) as well as a mandarin language
| tutor during university, and was always amazed by the richness of
| HK culture from fishing villages in Saikung to bustling life in
| Tsim Tsa Tsui and in Central with relics of British colonialism.
| Now many unique elements of HK life had disappeared.
|
| Meanwhile, Taiwan's value to the Chinese diaspora can't be
| understated--it's a bastion of a mandarin-speaking democracy, or
| in software terms a hard fork of an alternate reality of what
| China could have been. It has cultivated its own culture, and
| retained elements of Chinese culture cancelled during the
| cultural revolution. It has its own identity from the aboriginal
| population, the settlers from the dynastic period, Japanese
| colonization, and influences from the Republic of China refugees
| (or occupiers, depending on your POV, post 1949 Chinese settlers)
| and American forces. And since 2018, I've seen the Taiwanese
| double down on their Taiwanese identity and pride, and in many
| ways Taiwan is the envy of China (also literally).
|
| If I were to live in Asia, it might have once included Hong Kong
| because of its unique British history. Now I would probably live
| in Taiwan and Japan.
|
| Edit: Taiwan hasn't always been a democracy, and the path to
| democracy hasn't been easy (just ask America). It's not perfect
| like any other well-running democracy, but it's the closest
| paragon we have in the Chinese diaspora. The presidency has
| transitioned peacefully to different parties since the 1990s.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| > _and it seemed inevitable that China would absorb Taiwan._
|
| No, it's unrealistic to think the the ROC would ever
| effectively surrender to the PRC however HK's reintegration was
| managed.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Hong Kong was promised to have democracy, human rights and
| access to China. If they had kept those promises, then I
| believe many Taiwanese would have welcomed reunification.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _Meanwhile, Taiwan's value to the Chinese diaspora can't be
| understated--it's a bastion of a mandarin-speaking democracy._
|
| A bastion of democracy which has been a right wing dictatorship
| from its inception until the 90s.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan)
| daemoens wrote:
| So it's still a bastion of democracy?
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > A bastion of democracy which has been a right wing
| dictatorship from its inception until the 90s.
|
| The 1990s being, well, _not now_ , the correct conjugation is
| either "was" or "had been", not "has been".
|
| Which relates directly to why its irrelevant.
| seszett wrote:
| The 90s are now thirty years ago, and Taiwan has undisputably
| been a functioning democracy since then.
| [deleted]
| hayst4ck wrote:
| I watched a Taiwanese election in Taiwan. I observed their
| polling stations. A Taiwanese citizen started a conversation
| and educated me, an American, on democracy and elections.
|
| This Taiwanese person told me that elections are for the
| loser. If the loser does not believe in the validity of the
| election, it serves no purpose.
|
| That's why electronic voting machines are anti-thetical to
| the purpose of an election. Electronic voting machines
| exchange trust for a more efficient election. That is why
| Taiwan does not use electronic voting machines.
|
| That is a pretty impressive insight that was absent from my
| American civic education. I was very impressed with the civic
| education in Taiwan, and I was impressed with the average
| level of education in Taipei.
|
| My subjective experience as an American was that Democracy is
| more healthy in Taiwan than it is in America.
| scrubs wrote:
| For the loser? That's like the mob's take on what practical
| operational control means.
|
| >My subjective experience as an American was that Democracy
| is more healthy in Taiwan than it is in America.
|
| Cause why?
| Aperocky wrote:
| > If the loser does not believe in the validity of the
| election, it serves no purpose.
|
| The idea seems correct, however, unsure how electronic
| voting machine comes into the picture, perhaps only in a
| mental sense, but people have shown that they will not
| believe in the validity of the election regardless of the
| evidence presented.
| scrubs wrote:
| Although off topic from the original post, would you entertain
| this question? What's Taiwan's position on integration with
| China? What does Taiwan want for itself? I'd like to hear more
| about that minus American and Chinese input.
| jasonjei wrote:
| This is an extremely interesting question because I've heard
| various viewpoints. The vast majority want to keep the
| "technical debt" of this uneasy bridge to China--that is
| trade and movement of people between the strait, and
| maintaining the status quo of the "Republic of China"
| government (controlling Taiwan) and PRC (controlling China or
| "mainland").
|
| Many Taiwanese don't want war, but they already are
| functionally independent. The PRC has never governed in
| Taiwan. The ROC, which governed China from 1912 to 1949,
| governs Taiwan and its child islands.
|
| Many young Taiwanese just want to be Taiwanese and left
| alone, but the vast majority want to keep the status quo as
| long as it's tenable (it's not, Xi Jinping has indicated a
| timeline). The big question is how this might be possible
| without poking the bear that resembles Pooh... It's obvious
| to most Taiwanese that China won't keep its promises, since
| it made clear violations of promises made to the HK people
| and UK.
|
| Recent elections have shown KMT party (pro-PRC relations, the
| grandfather of the Republic of China government, and in
| someways the father party of the Communists that forked from
| KMT) gaining ground because people are afraid of war. Nobody
| in Taiwan wants war, but as the saying goes, in order to have
| peace, prepare for war.
| scrubs wrote:
| Well, if China invades it'll have even less incentive to
| maintain anything remotely like pre-invasion. You gave HK
| as the example. That was only paperwork to get in the front
| door.
| duxup wrote:
| >Chinese diaspora
|
| I had no idea how wide it is until a family member married
| someone from Asia and he explained ot me that his family thinks
| of themselves as ethnically Chinese, although they're totally
| disconnected from China.
| dumpster_fire wrote:
| [dead]
| dirtyid wrote:
| >It almost felt like another Chinese city
|
| ...
|
| >If I were to live in Asia, it might have once included Hong
| Kong because of its unique British history
|
| OTOH this attitude is why PRC finally calibrating HK for PRC
| nationals/one-way permits instead of privileged foreign expats
| was long overdue. Mainlanders I know in HK find the new mix
| PRC/HK mix more preferable than UK/HK, less visible
| discrimination etc. Local nativism still exists but less overt
| than pre NSL. Applies to the mainland as well - first exodus of
| privileged discontent expats who thought they were
| indispensable in the mid 2010s - only to be replaced by
| qualified nationals. Think of it as PRC fixing their H1B
| problem. Something many in tech have comparably aligned
| opinions on.
| maskedinvader wrote:
| Can we at HN at-least refer to the author as immigrant as opposed
| to expats? what's an expat anyways ? why does the western world
| to get to make these tiers where they are expats but arabs,
| asians, africans etc are all immigrants ?
| jacooper wrote:
| I think he is an expat, because he is writing from the
| perspective of the west. Also an expat left because he/she
| wanted to, not forced to.
| SalmoShalazar wrote:
| I don't think you can expect the HN crown to be anything but
| western chauvinists. It's who we are.
| panza wrote:
| An expat is not an immigrant. It would be incorrect to call the
| author - who is an expat - an immigrant.
| vgchh wrote:
| Resident Alien - I think that's how USCIS calls people who do
| intend to stay but not immigrate
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| An immigrant hopes to settle down in the host country, have /
| grow a family there, own property and even become a citizen. Of
| course, if the host nation does not have a citizenship program
| for foreigners, then everyone who isn't a citizen is an expat.
|
| An expat hopes, even plans to move back to where they came
| from. They're in their host nation for work reasons only
| because, at least according to the expat, where they're from is
| a "better" place than their host country.
| paxys wrote:
| The author has lived there for 20 years, married there, has
| kids who go to local schools, yet calls himself an expat, and
| everyone here seems to accept that as an obvious truth. At
| some point people have to come to terms that this isn't about
| some technical definition of the term but a deeper prejudice.
| ren_engineer wrote:
| >But in order to live everyday life, most people living in China
| find it necessary to turn a blind eye until it affects them
| directly. That became impossible during the Covid-19 pandemic,
| when the force of China's technocracy was on full display
|
| it's amazing how people were able to delude themselves for so
| long, Tiananmen should have been enough to make people and
| governments realize things weren't going to change
| RedCondor wrote:
| The Western narrative about Tiananmen is frankly detached from
| reality.
|
| Anyone who chooses to believe something like "It was Kent
| State, but bigger and more evil!" is just projecting.
|
| >Probably the most widely disseminated account appeared first
| in the Hong Kong press: a Qinghua University student described
| machine guns mowing down students in front of the Monument to
| the People's Heroes in the middle of the square. The New York
| Times gave this version prominent display on June 12, just a
| week after the event, but no evidence was ever found to confirm
| the account or verify the existence of the alleged witness.
| Times reporter Nicholas Kristof challenged the report the next
| day, in an article that ran on the bottom of an inside page;
| the myth lived on. Student leader Wu'er Kaixi said he had seen
| 200 students cut down by gunfire, but it was later proven that
| he left the square several hours before the events he described
| allegedly occurred. Most of the hundreds of foreign journalists
| that night, including me, were in other parts of the city or
| were removed from the square so that they could not witness the
| final chapter of the student story. Those who tried to remain
| close filed dramatic accounts that, in some cases, buttressed
| the myth of a student massacre.
|
| https://archives.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_myth_of_tiananm...
|
| The idea that it's "covered up" is also, likewise, nonsense:
|
| >Beijing Municipality has checked and double-checked all the
| figures from the Martial Law Command, the Public Security
| Ministry, the Chinese Red Cross, all institutions of higher
| education, and all major hospitals. These show that 241 people
| died. They included 23 officers and soldiers from the martial
| law troops and 218 civilians. The 23 military deaths included
| 10 from the PLA and 13 from the People's Armed Police. The 218
| civilians (Beijing residents, people from elsewhere, students,
| and rioters) included 36 students from Beijing universities and
| 15 people from outside Beijing.
|
| https://redsails.org/another-view-of-tiananmen/
|
| It's just understood differently than how Americans wish it was
| understood. Probably because "heroes" like Liu Xiaobo said
| things like:
|
| >[It would take] 300 years of colonialism. In 100 years of
| colonialism, Hong Kong has changed to what we see today. With
| China being so big, of course it would require 300 years as a
| colony for it to be able to transform into how Hong Kong is
| today. I have my doubts as to whether 300 years would be
| enough.
|
| http://www.open.com.hk/old_version/1011p68.html
| nebukhadnezzar wrote:
| What do you win or get out of the attempts to rewrite
| atrocities like they have never happened in history? What did
| the victims that died that week do to you?
| https://imgur.com/a/q8ZIS
| RedCondor wrote:
| I'm Latin American and very, very happy we have China as an
| alternative to America's tyrannical Monroe Doctrine.
|
| The demonization of China feels incredibly absurd, like
| when someone wearing an exceedingly ugly outfit, lacking
| self-awareness, tries to criticize someone else's fashion.
| nebukhadnezzar wrote:
| Full mask off now, who would want to live in a democracy
| if you can live under the boot of an authoritarian
| narcissistic personality cult.
| RedCondor wrote:
| I'm not gonna engage in some silly atrocity picture-
| sharing exercise with some America enthusiast. The fact
| that you think it's something that America could come out
| ahead of China on is simply absurd.
| meh8881 wrote:
| Are you citing the Chinese government as the best source on
| supposed Chinese government atrocities?
| RedCondor wrote:
| Absolutely.
|
| If the accusation is "the Chinese government denies it!"
| the best way to demonstrate the falsehood is by citing the
| Chinese government not denying it.
|
| It seems pretty straightforward.
| letmevoteplease wrote:
| That's a "limited hangout," like the US government
| describing Abu Ghraib torture as "isolated incidents," or
| the Rwandan state dismissing its genocide as "ethnic
| clashes." It's the default response for any government
| trying to absolve itself of an atrocity.
| FpUser wrote:
| Things do change over the time. And if you are so willing to
| look back I am sure you'll find enough trash in a history of
| your own country.
| simonh wrote:
| They do change, in mainland China they have devolved
| considerably under Xi. I have Family over there, and a lot of
| the optimism of a decade ago was already being squeezed out
| of the country before the pandemic.
| FpUser wrote:
| Yes things devolved, and they might get better over the
| time. Or not. Nobody knows.
| ren_engineer wrote:
| I mean change in the talking point at the time that if we
| just kept throwing money at China they'd magically become a
| democracy. As long as the CCP is in charge that's not
| happening and should have been clear based off Tiananmen.
| Allowing them into the WTO and continuing to trade with them
| just made their power stronger. Going to be seen as a huge
| blunder historically
| shell0x wrote:
| Lots of people used to go to China for work and could do pretty
| much anything they want, but since Jinping took over it went
| downhill fast.
|
| Most people in the expat community I know went to Hong Kong and
| Singapore instead for the following reasons: 1) Easy to do
| business 2) Easy to get your money in and _out_. 3) Low taxes 4)
| Central travel hubs in Asia 5) Less backwards mindset as these
| cities feel more cosmopolitan and are interconnected with the
| outside world
|
| With HK having less and less freedom, Singapore is really the
| only choice for foreigners to have a decent life quality in Asia.
| Tokyo could potentially be an option too, but it's really hard to
| live there due the very different structures in Japanese society
| and taxes are pretty high.
| ersiees wrote:
| Why do we call people expats and not rich migrants or something
| like that?
| jimbob45 wrote:
| Expats expect to come home at some point in their lives.
| Emigrants (the word I think you were looking for) leave for
| good.
|
| https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/97835/difference...
| carlmr wrote:
| >Emigrants (the word I think you were looking for)
|
| Emigrants leave and immigrants come. It's two sides of the
| same coin. You can't emigrate without immigrating. Except if
| you manage to become stateless and remain on international
| territory.
|
| Migrants is just the term without the direction. Which is
| unnecessary if you're not talking about the country they
| leave or move to.
| hahaxdxd123 wrote:
| If he had a family there, it seems to me like he was a
| migrant until the political circumstances forced him out.
| amrocha wrote:
| Because US and EU citizens think that "immigrant" is a dirty
| word for people from poor countries.
|
| To all the other people talking about intent to settle or not:
| read the post. The author lived in China for 20 years and built
| a family there. They're not an "expat" under any technical
| definition of the word.
| lmm wrote:
| > To all the other people talking about intent to settle or
| not: read the post. The author lived in China for 20 years
| and built a family there. They're not an "expat" under any
| technical definition of the word.
|
| And yet he's leaving. He calls the US "home". So evidently he
| was an expat.
| varjag wrote:
| Expat == anglo work migrant
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| There's a legal distinction. At least in America.
|
| An immigrant has an intent to settle, an expat doesn't. In
| America, one could theoretically lose work authorization should
| he refer or present himself as an immigrant.
| cutemonster wrote:
| That's what I've read, too, i.e. intent to settle, or not.
|
| Maybe wanting to move forever (i.e. migrant) is more common,
| if one is from a poorer country, which could explain why some
| others here thought that "immigrant" implied "poor and less
| educated".
| nonethewiser wrote:
| Well, many arent rich for starters
| favaq wrote:
| Immigrants detract from an economy, expats add to an economy.
| varjag wrote:
| You sure your ESL class is a bigger contribution to a host
| economy than a skilled welder?
| favaq wrote:
| China is not as stupid as the West, if they thought you
| weren't contributing they'd kick you in the butt back to
| the US.
| mr90210 wrote:
| - Basketball players are athletes - Not all athletes are
| basketball players
| hayst4ck wrote:
| While there are very jaded views about cultural superiority and
| other things like that. I think the truth is probably less
| cynical.
|
| I can move to japan and marry a Japanese wife, work for a
| Japanese company, pay Japanese taxes, and speak fluent
| Japanese, but I will _never_ be Japanese because my skin is
| white.
|
| People can move to America, and as long as you speak English
| without an accent, there is an assumption that you are
| American.
|
| If the place you move will assimilate you, then I would call
| that migrancy. If the place you move will never accept you,
| then I would call that ex-patriotism.
|
| People who move to civil societies migrate, people who move to
| ethnic societies become ex-patriots.
|
| I strongly recommend reading this:
| https://www.amacad.org/publication/what-does-it-mean-be-amer...
|
| It really puts into perspective conservatism and liberalism by
| showing their contextual effects on immigration.
| dariosalvi78 wrote:
| that's what migrants who are not poor like to call themselves
| paxys wrote:
| TL;DR
|
| 2000 - The government is kidnapping people from their beds in the
| middle of the night but that's a minor inconvenience. I'll just
| shut up and enjoy the economic gains. China is the best!
|
| 2022 - I can't believe the government is coming for _my_ money
| and lifestyle. The tyranny was only supposed to affect the other
| people.
| tomohelix wrote:
| What I find ironic is that as businesses leave China, they move
| into the exact same type of culture in Vietnam and India. Vietnam
| is basically a mini China and India is trending towards the same
| authoritarian regime that most people find distasteful.
|
| The entire western world is so addicted to cheap labor I don't
| know what would happen when there is no more cheap labor to be
| found. There will be a huge social disruption when everyone
| everywhere in the world demands 100k salary a year with social
| benefits. That or AGIs come out and we get a disruption on the
| same scale.
|
| Fun fact, Vietnam is moving from 5 days work week to 6 days work
| week while the rest of us are demanding 4 days work week here in
| the US.
| web3-is-a-scam wrote:
| And many of the Vietnamese factories are owned by China.
| onos wrote:
| I don't believe the average western person would care at all if
| they could afford fewer cheap products. Corporate profits would
| certainly go down.
| _-david-_ wrote:
| >I don't believe the average western person would care at all
| if they could afford fewer cheap products
|
| I don't think this is the case. The average person wants a
| lot of things for cheap. Also, more expensive items like
| computers and phones would increase in price. People like
| having the newest phones, but might be priced out of it if it
| increased.
| FpUser wrote:
| >"The entire western world is so addicted to cheap labor "
|
| This is the only thing that allows rich to get richer while
| still keeping peasants under the boiling point. Without cheap
| labor living standard in developed countries would drop like a
| rock. What comes after nobody knows.
| muyuu wrote:
| India perhaps, in the long term, could challenge the US
| directly - but the idea that Vietnam or Thailand would openly
| challenge the USA in a hot conflict is laughable
|
| culture is not the reason these people are leaving China, but
| an open hostility towards foreigners during recent years that
| is creating a very difficult position for expats living there
| tomohelix wrote:
| Let say China and the US come into open conflict and everyone
| is forced to choose a side, which side do you think Vietnam
| will pick?
|
| China and Vietnam share a long history and culture. They are
| also right next to each other and have the same government
| type. Vietnam has openly showed their desire to work with
| China at the cost of the US. They sent some top diplomats to
| China right after the US diplomats came to visit them. That
| is pretty clear to me which country they prefer more.
|
| Investing in Vietnam is basically the same thing as investing
| in China in the past. It will end the same way, with a
| strengthened opponent in Asia.
| partiallypro wrote:
| A vast majority of Vietnamese view China in a worse light
| than the US, and China and Vietnam have recently had
| quarrels over the South China Sea. They share a lot of
| history...and some of that history includes China invading
| Vietnam several times. I wouldn't count on Vietnam siding
| with China in a global conflict.
| croutonwagon wrote:
| Having traveled to Vietnam AND being a bit of a history buff,
| especially on US war history (and theres a "bit" of an
| intersection there).
|
| Can you explain how? They are a communist government sure and
| to get fairly large as a private company you do have to cut the
| government in (ie: Vin company, Viettel, Sunworld etc) but they
| do appear to be much less repressive and much more open than
| say a china. Especially socially.
| arroz wrote:
| China was also much more open and less repressive 10-20 years
| ago
| tomohelix wrote:
| I think for Vietnam, it is more that they couldn't afford to
| be repressive, not that they don't want to.
|
| They are still relatively underdeveloped. Cracking down too
| hard on dissidents would hurt their FDI from places like the
| US. Not to mention they probably don't have the money and
| manpower to spare on that. China was the same when they were
| at the stage Vietnam is in now. And it is very likely Vietnam
| will do what China is doing now soon enough.
|
| I have been to Vietnam too and I think for the time I stayed
| there, I got to experience a pretty authentic feel for their
| political and cultural systems. And all it reminds me of is
| China, a decade or two ago.
| croutonwagon wrote:
| Thats fair. I have never been to China but have worked witb
| folks that have. They have to take some....extra
| precautions traveling there.
|
| Vietnam seems much more open. Their internet is largely
| open and accessible. Even easy to register sims. They have
| no quarantine or vaccine requirements for entry or visa
| etc.
|
| All in all much more open and light. Similarly in good
| company they would be fairly open about the government and
| problems etc.
|
| It definately isnt on the same level of freedom as America
| but definitely didnt seem as repressive as china and i
| didnt see the will there to move that way. In fact they
| seem like they wanted to remain open for the financial
| benefits of doing business in the west.
| inconceivable wrote:
| indeed. vietnam is run by the communist party of vietnam.
| remember, they won the war. that's why there is no south
| vietnam and north vietnam anymore (unlike korea). there is no
| free speech. there is no rule of law. there is no free market.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Vietnam
|
| i wonder how long it will take before we start hearing "i hate
| the VCP but i love vietnamese people/culture". probably when
| they get powerful enough to challenge the regional US interest
| in anything significant.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| Do you see people endorsing the VCP now? Observing that
| they're better than the CCP doesn't count.
| inconceivable wrote:
| yes, i do. every serious discussion i've heard or article
| i've read about near-shoring and friend-shoring includes
| vietnam.
|
| chinese companies also operate factories in vietnam, that's
| another aspect people just kind of gloss over.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| Again, that sounds like "better than China" and not a
| direct endorsement of the Vietnamese communist party. We
| are talking about global trade here - the proponents
| aren't rooting for communism.
| DiscourseFan wrote:
| The US and Vietnam are very strong allies now, its unlikely
| that will ever happen.
| tomohelix wrote:
| I don't think we have an alliance with Vietnam. AFAIK,
| there is no US base or military agreement or anything
| indicating a higher relationship than trade partner.
|
| In fact, a few times DC sent some diplomats to Vietnam, the
| govt over there responded by sending their diplomats to
| China. Basically saying they prefer China over the US. It
| makes sense to them since China is closer and have higher
| trade value than the US. But because of that I don't see
| how Vietnam can be a "strong ally" to the US.
|
| Can you explain more or cite your sources?
| arroz wrote:
| Only china and India will ever really be able to challenge
| the US
|
| Big countries with big population
|
| Maybe Nigeria and Indonesia too, but it wouldn't happen this
| century
| realusername wrote:
| Unlike China it's not like they can operate in a closed
| environment independently though, they need the outside world
| inconceivable wrote:
| i'm pretty sure you just made that up on the spot.
|
| china imports huge amounts of everything critical to
| manufacturing and food.
|
| https://wits.worldbank.org/CountryProfile/en/Country/CHN/Ye
| a...
| xtian wrote:
| China needs the outside world, too.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative
| ren_engineer wrote:
| >What I find ironic is that as businesses leave China, they
| move into the exact same type of culture in Vietnam and India
|
| most of those are just Chinese shell companies or doing final
| assembly on parts made in China to get around sanctions and as
| a PR stunt by big companies to appease DC by claiming they are
| moving out of China
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| The world will adapt when labor becomes scarce, it will have no
| other choice. The more scarce labor is, the more pricing power
| it has.
|
| Arguing over "what if AGI" is like arguing about nuclear war
| and winter. It might happen, but no plans you form for it will
| survive contact with reality, so there is very little value in
| spending cycles on optimizing for it.
| foobiekr wrote:
| Labor isn't really going to become scarce this century.
| Nigeria, etc.
| [deleted]
| vidarh wrote:
| Fertility rates are dropping across Africa too, and while
| the growth will continue for a few more decades, maybe
| until the end of the century, labour will increasingly be
| scarce _where we need it_. There 'll be significant
| political and social upheaval while countries deal with
| figuring out how to compete for immigrants.
| cute_boi wrote:
| There will always be poor and they will be exploited. I guess
| nature is brutal to keep everyone happy.
| politelemon wrote:
| I have a cynical view (sorry) that labor will always be cheap
| somewhere. It's part of the globalization machine, there will
| always be a decline somewhere, and if there isn't, one will
| be created.
| akira2501 wrote:
| This view seems inconsistent. Artificial manipulation is
| not sustainable in the long term. The ability to
| continually create conditions that lead to cheap labor is
| limited and will eventually fail.
| auggierose wrote:
| With AI+capital on the manipulating side I am not sure
| there are any limits.
| layer8 wrote:
| On the contrary, it seems that increase of income
| inequality is a natural trend.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| What artificial manipulation?
| flextheruler wrote:
| I'm not sure it's globalization. There will always be rich
| countries and poorer countries. Like there will always be
| poor people and rich people. The gap may and should shrink
| between the two but not vanish.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| And if there is not, we either have global poverty or a
| tremendous amount of force applied to the distribution of
| wealth.
| abstractbeliefs wrote:
| China's Belt and Road Initiative suggests that they view
| the under-developed Middle East and African nations to be
| the next in line, the same as the US viewed China as a
| source of cheap labour.
|
| The party has been making deep investments into the regions
| and is developing significant political and social capital
| at the same time that the West is retreating from them,
| cutting foreign aid, etc.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| > China's Belt and Road Initiative suggests that they
| view the under-developed Middle East and African nations
| to be the next in line, the same as the US viewed China
| as a
|
| I think it's more "want" than "see." They might see
| Vietnam as next in line but outsourcing to ME and Africa
| suit their interests better.
| Krasnol wrote:
| It's not as much about "cheap work" but about "cheaper work"
| and there will always be cheaper work somewhere.
| mr90210 wrote:
| One could argue that there is great value on being able to
| operate in different countries rather than centralize
| operations or manufacture in a single country.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-03-19 23:00 UTC)