[HN Gopher] Paving the Road to Vulkan on Asahi Linux ___________________________________________________________________ Paving the Road to Vulkan on Asahi Linux Author : jiripospisil Score : 485 points Date : 2023-03-20 15:56 UTC (7 hours ago) (HTM) web link (asahilinux.org) (TXT) w3m dump (asahilinux.org) | zamadatix wrote: | Ahhh this is so awesome! I'm now kicking myself for upgrading to | an M2 Max thinking all M2 models were supported already, now I | have to wait to see this massive performance improvement. | Fantastic work by the Asahi team, it's great to see this come | together and the blog posts are excellent summaries of | information I otherwise wouldn't be able to grok. | tomcam wrote: | Sincere, not kiss-ass question here: are they low-key becoming | the best communicators in the Linux world? Or are there equally | well-documented projects that just aren't getting the same heat | for whatever reason? | smoldesu wrote: | My personal favorite is the This Week In[0] series of posts, if | you want a simple way to keep track of notable changes. | Technical blogposts are a pretty common practice among reverse- | engineers, too; the Dolphin emulator has some great | breakdowns[1], along with the people who reverse-engineered the | Nintendo Switch's boot process[2] (and the rest of | LiveOverflow's stuff). | | The Asahi writeups are great, but certainly not all there is. | _Tons_ of reverse-engineering stuff and Linux documentation | gets submit to this website, it just doesn 't generally do as | well in the ranking system. | | [0] https://thisweek.gnome.org/ | | [0] https://pointieststick.com/category/this-week-in-kde/ | | [1] https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/ | | [2] https://youtu.be/Ec4NgWRE8ik | tomcam wrote: | Sweet! Thanks for opening my mind! | kitsunesoba wrote: | I don't follow the space super closely so I may be mistaken, | but the impression I get is that Asahi posts are more likely to | be posted/shared in less niche tech-related spaces, whereas | most other Linux news tends to stay firmly within the Linux/GNU | sphere. So if nothing else, Asahi's communications are more | generally visible. | babypuncher wrote: | I think the Asahi Linux project rekindles some of that | excitement from the earlier days of Linux on PC-compatibles in | the late '90s and early '00s. | | Some people might not remember this, but hardware support for | Linux was a real crapshoot back then, and it's only "mostly | smooth" on PC today because we have a quarter century of work | building out drivers and modules for the platform. | | It's fun watching the breakneck pace at which they are going | through the same processes with a brand new and proprietary | consumer-oriented computing platform. | Phelinofist wrote: | LWN is super great | tomcam wrote: | So true. Thank you. | shmerl wrote: | _> We could add explicit sync to them, but that would break | backwards compatibility..._ | | At some point it would be good to break it and get rid of | implicit sync in the Wayland use case. Keeping it forever is not | worth it. | renox wrote: | Well the question is then do you have to update the Wayland | clients? | shmerl wrote: | Probably. May be it's like Wayland-new and similar transition | as from X? So they do need to coexist at the same time | somehow, but also it can be a separate path. | qalmakka wrote: | Noob question: given that Zink exists and works quite well, | wouldn't it been simpler to implement a Vulkan driver first and | then just use Zink for OpenGL? | risho wrote: | I THINK that I remember marcan addressing this in one of his | youtube interviews: | | This is actually what their plan is long term. That said in the | short term it's way easier to implement opengl, it gives them a | simple way to explore the hardware, and it also makes it so | that real people will be able to run desktop linux on apple | silicon macs way sooner. | wtallis wrote: | I think Zink requires a fairly feature-complete Vulkan | implementation. Starting with a basic OpenGL implementation is | definitely the quicker route to having a way to run and test | some real applications. | kitsunesoba wrote: | To add to this, the faster route to something that runs was | important because it was a goal of the devs to start | dogfooding the distribution as soon as possible. | ThatPlayer wrote: | Zink docs list a bunch of Vulkan extensions you need to | support to be able to run Zink. The Raspberry Pi's v3dv | Vulkan driver doesn't even support all the requirements, | though it is only missing 1 extension. | | Alyssa also works on the panvk Vulkan drivers for ARM Mali | GPUs, which currently don't even support Vulkan 1.0. | | https://docs.mesa3d.org/drivers/zink.html#opengl-2-1 | OptionX wrote: | This gonna sound like but I promise I'm not being facetious or | trying to make a point. I'm genuinely curious. Whats the point of | Asahi Linux? Why buy a Mac to run linux? | | If you're spending money on Mac I assume you want to buy in the | whole MacOS environment, that's Apple value proposition in my | eyes. | | Is it the M1, it that fast and better than similar priced laptops | running an x86-64? Or is it the novelty of using ARM-based stuff? | Is the market for ARM-based laptops still Apple only? | | Also is there relevant limitation on stuff you can't do on MacOS | through homebrew or something and can on a Linux distro (not a | mac user so I don't know). | themadturk wrote: | Speaking as a Mac M1 users, but not a Linux user (I have played | with Asahi, think it's great, but don't need it right now), I | think almost no one (or a very small minority of people) buys | Mac hardware to run Linux. I think it's the inverse, people buy | Apple hardware and then realize Linux is available and want to | run it. | | Yes, I think the general opinion is that Apple's M1 and M2 | platforms are superior to Intel, even at the Mac's (supposedly) | higher price point. | | Though MacOS is a complete Unix system, it is still | proprietary, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to do your | work (or play) on a free OS running on an excellent hardware | platform. Asahi is giving people the opportunity to do that. | | Finally, though I can't speak for the Asahi team, I think also | there's an element of "because it's there". Here is a great new | hardware platform offering a incredibly difficult challenge to | a group of people who live for this kind of thing. Why would | they _not_ want to do it? | nicoburns wrote: | > Is it the M1, it that fast and better than similar priced | laptops running an x86-64 | | That's definitely part of it. You probably need to include | battery life for it to really make sense. There's nothing else | that will give you that performance _and_ close to 20 hours of | battery life in a slim laptop form factor. | | There's also people who are mostly happy using macOS but may | want to boot into Linux for specific tasks. | flohofwoe wrote: | The ARM Macs are seriously impressive hardware, even for just | the build and tactile quality. But macOS is regressing quickly | for professionals, there's too many design compromises to make | the OS attractive and safe for 'casual users' but those same | features are starting to become a hassle for professional | users. Linux is the complete opposite of course, it's a hassle | for casual users, but in exchange gives complete freedom to do | what you want. Personally I'm still ok with macOS, but with | each new macOS release the grass is looking greener on the | Linux side ;) | brightball wrote: | If they make it possible for me to revive old Apple hardware I'm | going to be very excited about this project. | sedatk wrote: | > Now we can run Xonotic at over 800 FPS, which is faster than | macOS on the same hardware (M2 MacBook Air) at around 600*! This | proves that open source reverse engineered GPU drivers really | have the power to beat Apple's drivers in real-world scenarios! | | > Not only that, our driver passes 100% of the dEQP-GLES2 and | dEQP-EGL conformance tests, which is better OpenGL conformance | than macOS for that version. But we're not stopping there of | course, with full GLES 3.0 and 3.1 support well underway thanks | to Alyssa's tireless efforts! | | That's very impressive work. Congrats to Asahi and Alyssa. | mouse_ wrote: | Now that we can see Vulkan is around 4/3 more power efficient | than Metal on the same hardware, I wonder if Apple will budge | on their not-invented-here syndrome and allow for a real | vulkan.kext on upcoming macOS versions. That would solidify it | as not only the best graphical workstation OS, but also the | best gaming OS, in my opinion. Part of me thinks they're | avoiding this in worry of stepping on Microsoft's toes. | brookst wrote: | Vulkan is about 4/3 as power efficient _when rendering at a | lower resolution_ than Metal | | Is that surprising? Fewer pixels usually means faster | rendering. | kuschku wrote: | Metal was rendering at lower resolution than Vulkan here. | rowanG077 wrote: | It's not using Vulkan. It's using opengl. | sebzim4500 wrote: | >Part of me thinks they're avoiding this in worry of stepping | on Microsoft's toes. | | What | jmull wrote: | From the article: | | * Please don't take the exact number too seriously, as there | are other differences too (Xonotic runs under Rosetta on | macOS, but it was also rendering at a lower resolution there | due to being a non-Retina app). | frogblast wrote: | Not the least of which is likely power and clock state | management (both on the CPU and GPU) | babypuncher wrote: | Native Vulkan support could also pave the way for a proper | Mac version of DXVK. That could make Macs a lot more viable | as gaming machines than they are now, even with the Rosetta 2 | overhead. | m463 wrote: | They just won't do it. | | Not that they can't, it would be nice. When they capitulated | and came out with the intel macs around 2007ish, it became | sort of a golden era. You could run macos and windows on | their machines, and the smart computer folks started getting | and usefully using macs. | | But now apple is years into a disappointing inward looking | phase. | | What a decent future would be like... - | vulcan/x - take back xquartz into the fold - | actively pursue other linux graphics apis - apple does | virtualization - maybe like rosetta but for all their | software - run macos9 in a window - apple does | containers - what if there was something like docker | for macos natively? FROM macos:10.3 - apple | actively supports open source projects - open up ios | - let me see the filesystem - let me run a firewall | (true privacy?) | | etc... | pxc wrote: | If Apple did all that, I would buy new hardware from them, | and even leave their OS in place on it, for the first time | in almost two decades. | londons_explore wrote: | If you go work for apple and use development hardware, you | can have many of these things... | | But you lose the ability to talk about it. | jen20 wrote: | The move to MacOS by development and sysadmin types started | long before Intel Macs with the release of OSX, when it was | finally possible to get a laptop with a 5+ hour battery | life that ran a Unix-like OS. | | Edit: The latest macOS has a great virtualization system | built in, that many of the container platforms have already | switched to. | einherjae wrote: | The PowerPC machines never did reach actual 5 hour | battery time, 3 at most, on a good day, with the display | off. | jjtheblunt wrote: | I think my "Lombard" or maybe "Pismo" powerpc powerbook | did longer than 3 by far. And my iBook would go 8 hours | no sweat. | | edit: fixed the nickname | jen20 wrote: | Mine managed 6-8 without too much problem throughout the | time I was in university. And they had removable | batteries so you could just switch them out if you ever | needed to (I had two for my Powerbook, and that would do | a full day on campus without ever having to go near a | power outlet). | ofchnofc wrote: | Not that I disagree with the spirit, X is dead, and someone | demo'd Wayland apps on macOS at NixCon Paris. | spullara wrote: | I wonder if the driver could be ported to Mac OS? | gigatexal wrote: | MacOS has been put on the back burner for Apple. It's all | iPhone and iOS. It's clear that these scrappy hackers are | going to fully utilize the hardware, clearly Apple doesn't | care. | | Off-topic: FreeBSD had an early version of Grand Central | Dispatch ported to it, I wonder if Linux could benefit from | that maybe with some io-uring goodness. | mort96 wrote: | That ... really doesn't seem like the case. The macOS world | has seen soo many big changes recently, with the complete | visual overhaul of everything with Big Sur and then Ventura | (whether you like that or not), the rewriting of a whole | lot of applications and system stuff from AppKit to SwiftUI | (again, whether you like that or not), porting the entire | operating system to ARM, inventing an excellent x86_64 | virtualization layer, overhauling everything related to | booting and system upgrades (even if it's just taking | what's already built for iOS and heavily modifying it to | work for Macs), new window management features, etc etc. | That's a lot of engineering resources invested. | | The sorry state of Apple's OpenGL drivers is a part of | their strategy. They're choosing to not invest in OpenGL, | and have even officially deprecated it. They want you to | use Metal instead. | encryptluks2 wrote: | [dead] | phh wrote: | As far as I know the backend to have the driver running on | macos is already merged in mesa, so it should already work | as-is? | pedrocr wrote: | So ARM Macs in OSX can now or soon have true Vulkan support | with just a custom userspace app code targetting the kernel | interface directly? | nicoburns wrote: | I don't think the vulkan driver exists in a usable state | yet. So far there's only an OpenGL driver. | Ruq wrote: | Sometimes I really get to thinking (more than I usually do) about | how much it sucks that so much hardware is completely | undocumented and must be extensively reverse-engineered to even | function outside of the realm of manufacturer ordained software. | saagarjha wrote: | I'm curious what rendering path Xonotic uses on macOS. Is it | OpenGL? Apple supports that, but they run it on top of Metal, | which leaves it buggy and with performance that's nothing to | write home about. | ElijahLynn wrote: | Wow: | | > So what does this all mean for users of the Asahi Linux | reference distro today? It means... things are way faster! | | > Since the Mesa driver no longer serializes GPU and CPU work, | performance has improved a ton. Now we can run Xonotic at over | 800 FPS, which is faster than macOS on the same hardware (M2 | MacBook Air) at around 600*! This proves that open source reverse | engineered GPU drivers really have the power to beat Apple's | drivers in real-world scenarios! | raphlinus wrote: | The big question I have is whether this can possibly support | mandatory Vulkan features that are not available in Metal. The | one I care about most is device scoped barriers, which in turn | are needed for single-pass prefix sum techniques. | rowanG077 wrote: | From what I read on IRC full Vulkan is definitely the goal. And | with some hacks should be supported by the hardware. | raphlinus wrote: | The specific thing I asked for is very technically | challenging. One of the things I can offer is some tests that | fail in, among other things, MoltenVk, as the mapping to | Metal barriers is imprecise. I'm not sure whether the Vulkan | CTS test will catch it, I've seen it miss memory model | failures on other hardware. I'm always happy to chat about | this if someone from the team wants to reach out. | rowanG077 wrote: | Alyssa and Lina are very responsive on IRC. #asahi-gpu on | OFTC IRC network. You best ask them. Whether metal or | moltenVk supports it doesn't matter. The hardware is | capable of more. | jamies wrote: | Asahi Lina is truly an inspiration for open source reverse | engineering. For those not aware, they also live stream their | coding sessions quite often: https://www.youtube.com/@AsahiLina | | I'm excited for the day that I can easily install SteamOS (the | modern one that runs on the Steamdeck) on an M2 Mac mini for an | insanely powered "Steam console" for my living room TV. | heywhatupboys wrote: | I did _not_ expect the coding live streams of GPU engineering | to be presented by a virtual anime persona with a squeaky | voice. | BenSahar wrote: | Me either. | | I don't really get the V-Tuber thing (other than wanting to | stay anonymous) but having code explained to me by an anime | character is hilarious. | prmoustache wrote: | I don't mind that much thr anime character. But the voice | is simply unbearable. | pja wrote: | Better believe in cyberpunk futures; you're in one. | realjhol wrote: | It's just Marcan being weird and creepy. | TimTheTinker wrote: | Marcan is very busy with a lot of other things, like | upstreaming patches to the Linux mainline and improving | platform support. | | He's been clear that he's not Asahi Lina... and he's also | not a GPU hacker as far as I know. | monocasa wrote: | > and he's also not a GPU hacker as far as I know. | | I'm not really willing to indulge the greater discussion, | but marcan has done some serious GPU hacking before, | reverse engineering the microcode (not shaders) of the | PS4's GPU to fix bugs that the PS4 hacked around in the | drivers. | realjhol wrote: | Asahi Lina has the same spanish-sounding accent as Hector | but pitched up and falsetto. "raider" - the hostname of | the developer machine is that same as the hostname of | Hector's machine. | | He even did a super-cringe "take over" video, where Asahi | Lina "broke into" one of streams: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=effHrj0qmwk | sebzim4500 wrote: | Personally, I was more suprised by the wii sports music and | all the pink. | ozarker wrote: | I wonder how long it's going to take for games to start | generally supporting ARM. Getting Linux running well on | M1/M2/etc.. seems like only half the battle for making a good | gaming machine out of these. | est31 wrote: | Desktop games*. ARM is a major target for gaming already. | Games are 61 percent of app store revenue and 71 percent of | play store revenue. And mobile games are the majority of the | gaming market (51%). | | https://www.businessofapps.com/data/mobile-games-revenue/ | ajvs wrote: | Getting Waydroid to run well on Linux has big issues still | unfortunately if you wanted to use it to play Android | games. Managed to get it working for a few months on a | previous Ubuntu version, now can't get it to work at all. | klooney wrote: | 16k pages is going to make everything hard, I'm not holding | my breath. | nicoburns wrote: | I think the Asahi project will release a 4k kernel version | for those really need/want it at some point. As I | understand there are no technical barriers, they're just | delaying it to push more projects into supporting the 16k | mode (which has better perf). | sophacles wrote: | What role does page size play here, and why is 16K a | problem? | jraph wrote: | Sibling comments said it all, though "The Quest for | Netflix on Asahi Linux", posted on HN [1] as a very good, | detailed explanation of this and is a nice read. | | [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35081510 | gavinsyancey wrote: | The page size dictates the minimum size and alignment | requirements for `mmap`, and also for regions of memory | with different levels of protection (e.g. read-only vs | read+write vs read+execute, etc). If a program expects to | be able to `mmap` in 4kb chunks and can't, it will | probably not work properly. | | On macOS, IIRC the userspace and kernel-space page size | can be different and different userspace programs can run | with diferent page sizes, however on Linux the page size | is currently fixed across the system and set at compile | time. The M1's IOMMU only supports 16k-aligned pages, so | memory regions that need to be shared with other hardware | (e.g. the GPU) need to be 16k-aligned. As such (and | because Linux doesn't currently have great support for | mixed page sizes), the Asahi Linux project has decided to | run with 16k pages globally. However, that breaks a | number of applications that are expecting 4k pages. | | More info: | https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Broken-Software | londons_explore wrote: | Pages have been 4k on a lot of systems for 30+ years. | | That means a lot of software has come to assume that. | | Certain memory buffers need to be page size aligned, or a | multiple of pages long. Code can only be loaded to a page | aligned memory address. Memory mapping and | read/write/execute permissions can only be set on a per- | page basis. | | If all that stuff is hardcoded now, there will be lots of | fixes necessary to make things work properly with a | different page size. | | And those fixes probably will need the software to be | recompiled. And some software is only distributed in | binary form, and getting someone to recompile it may be | nearly impossible. | fulafel wrote: | Linux gaming has been developing in the opposite direction | for a while, moving away from even x86 Linux native ports and | toward running x86 Windows games under emulation. | kccqzy wrote: | They are running x86 Windows games under Wine. Remember | that Wine stands for Wine is not an emulator. | fulafel wrote: | The recursive acronym tradition of course (GNU's Not | Unix, Eine Is Not Emacs etc) traditionally implied the | implementation being superset or better than the thing | it's replacing and referencing in the acronym. | | Wine FAQ concludes | | > "Wine is not just an emulator" is more accurate. | Thinking of Wine as just an emulator is really forgetting | about the other things it is. Wine's "emulator" is really | just a binary loader that allows Windows applications to | interface with the Wine API replacement. | foresto wrote: | Try to remember that hardware emulation is not the only | kind of emulation. | | Wine (written as WinE when I first encountered it, IIRC) | emulates the Windows runtime environment. | nicoburns wrote: | I'd guess that will probably only happen when either windows | gets widespread ARM adoption, or there's a new Xbox or | PlayStation console that uses an ARM processor. Which... | might be a while. | mepian wrote: | There's the Nintendo Switch which does get ports. | cubefox wrote: | The Nintendo Switch console already uses an ARM SoC by | Nvidia. But I'm not sure whether this has meaningfully | increased the probability of porting games to MacOS. The | Switch uses Vulkan, but Apple uses Metal, a proprietary | graphics API. Whether ports make sense probably depends on | how strongly the Mac market share increases compared to | Windows. | jsheard wrote: | The Switch _can_ use Vulkan but it 's unusual in offering | a wide range of APIs, from OpenGL and Vulkan (the | implementations likely derived from Nvidia's existing PC | driver) or a custom low-level API tailored to the | hardware called NVN. From what I gather from the | emulation scene, the majority of Switch titles with non- | trivial performance requirements use NVN. Even idTech, | which famously uses Vulkan on PC, uses NVN instead for | its Switch ports. | smoldesu wrote: | I wouldn't count on many developers going back to update old | games with ARM support. It's more likely that the community | will work to build some sort of Box86 + Proton stack to get | games working, which should get a lot of the classics | working[0]. From there, I think the struggle will be getting | Box86 to run fast enough for modern games. Apple's ARM CPUs | have great IPC, but that can still get annihilated when it's | forced to simulate SIMD/AVX instructions. I assume Apple has | some sort of vector acceleration framework in Apple Silicon, | but it will take time and effort to reverse-engineer and | implement. | | Things are certainly looking better than they did a couple | years ago, but getting ARM to run x86 code faster-than-native | is an uphill battle. Maybe even an impossible one, but I've | been surprised before (like with DXVK). | | [0] Crysis on a Rockchip ARM SOC, for example: | https://youtu.be/k6C5mZvanFU?t=1069 | nicoburns wrote: | > I assume Apple has some sort of vector acceleration | framework in Apple Silicon, but it will take time and | effort to reverse-engineer and implement. | | I'm pretty sure it's just vanilla ARM NEON so I don't think | it will take any reverse engineering. The Apple Silicon GPU | is custom, but the CPU is just minor extensions to (and | compatible with) AArch64. Rumour has it that this is | because AArch64 was designed by Apple and donated to ARM | (who Apple has close relationship with being that they were | a founding member). | saagarjha wrote: | Apple support NEON (and uses it for most SIMD code) but | it also has other proprietary ISA extensions for e.g. | matrix multiply. | smoldesu wrote: | Interesting, that's what I was curious about. NEON is a | bit slow last I checked, but at least Apple is sticking | to spec here. It does make me wonder how much performance | is left on the table for ARM architectures that want to | emulate x86, though. | | ...it _also_ raises the question of how emulated titles | fare against translated ones. It would be fascinating to | see how something like Dark Souls Remastered performs | through Yuzu vs DXVK on Apple Silicon. | kitsunesoba wrote: | It's a little frustrating how it's the norm in the game | industry for companies to toss a binary over the wall and | maybe patch it for a short period after release (not a | given, ports in particular are vulnerable to being forever | stuck at 1.0), with significant technical updates being out | of the question until it's been long enough for them to try | to sell you a remaster. | | Not having any experience in that industry, I wonder what | the driving forces of this are. I suspect it's some | combination of incredibly brittle codebases that cease to | build if glanced at the wrong way and aversion to spending | anything on games post-release. | [deleted] | stonemetal12 wrote: | >aversion to spending anything on games post-release. | | I am pretty sure that is the answer. Unless the game is | Cyberpunk levels of unplayable, there is no money in post | release support unless it is bundled with DLC or GOTY | releases. | | Back in the day it was pretty commonly sited figure that | like 90% of a game's revenue came in the first 3-4 weeks | of release. DLC and "seasons" are an attempt to stretch | it out and make more off a single release, but I haven't | heard how well that works. | masklinn wrote: | > DLC and "seasons" are an attempt to stretch it out and | make more off a single release, but I haven't heard how | well that works. | | That also dates back to back in the days, we just called | it expansion packs. | jacquesm wrote: | I much prefer that model over services that suddenly | disappear. | izacus wrote: | Not to mention the predatory subscription models that are | rampant in mobile for software that is equally as broken, | just costing more. | kitsunesoba wrote: | The "binary abandonment" model can have effectively the | same result, though. | | An example that come to mind immediately is how much of a | mess it is to get games that were built with Games for | Windows Live like the PC port of Fable 3 running on | modern Windows. It's possible, but there's a ridiculous | number of hoops to jump through, none of which would be | necessary if Microsoft shipped a quick and dirty update | that pulled out the Games for Windows Live dependency. | ynx wrote: | Not supporting new platforms is because | | - Total dependency on an engine's build system | | - Lack of official support for uncommon platforms | | - Extremely low expected ROI even if it were possible to | deliver on other platforms | | Gamedevs aren't in the business of building platforms, | they're in the business (mostly) of consuming them and | going where the players are. | | Gamedevs not updating is because | | - The engines themselves are indeed outrageously brittle | at times, with LTS releases sometimes containing | significant bugs that persist against newer releases of | minor and major versions | | - New releases can actually cause dramatic regressions, | not just in terms of bugs, but in terms of features, | stability, binary size, and more | | - AAAs are wasting time chasing the next big thing, non- | AAAs are struggling with few people and need to | constantly be building the next thing because they're | building products, not services | | - Gamedevs are largely media/entertainment companies, | very few act like technology companies | masklinn wrote: | > I suspect it's some combination of incredibly brittle | codebases that cease to build if glanced at the wrong way | and aversion to spending anything on games post-release. | | The primary reason is that there's no money in it. Like | movies, your "one shot" game (without some sort of | continuous billing e.g. mmo, subscription, continuous | stream of DLCs) makes most of its revenue in the first | few weeks, and once the kinks are ironed out what it | makes afterwards doesn't really depend on maintenance. | | Additional maintenance doesn't pay for itself, the | producer doesn't pay the devs for that, and thus the devs | take on the next contract to pay the bills. Not to | mention additional maintenance is a risk. | 58028641 wrote: | The problem with Box86 is that it requires 32 bit ARM, | which Apple Silicon does not support. | [deleted] | rubenfiszel wrote: | I have been a thinkpad + arch devoted user for the last 10 years. | I just want a nice ARM machine now and it seems the best option | at the moment is Macbook Air M2 + Asahi. I do not know how to | feel about it, maybe a bit of sadness, but I wish great luck to | Asahi. | | Also every blog they post are great read! | danieldk wrote: | Why do you feel sad? Apple Silicon Macs are fairly open | hardware, I see it as a win that there are ARM64 machines now | that can run Linux and are competitive with x86_64. | [deleted] | rsaxvc wrote: | Not the commenter, but I'm a little sad ThinkPads didn't keep | up. | | They have an ARM64 offering, but it's PlaySkool premium. | pengaru wrote: | > Apple Silicon Macs are fairly open hardware | | If that were remotely true TFA wouldn't be about _reverse_ | _engineered_ GPU support on Apple Silicon. Nor would there | really be a need for Asahi Linux to be developed in its own | silo while it gets Apple Silicon support hammered out. | Mike_12345 wrote: | ThinkPad also has proprietary undocumented subsystems that | are reverse engineered to work on Linux. Such double | standards versus Apple. | error503 wrote: | Sure it has some undocumented subsystems, but compared to | the Macs, it has a much stronger claim to openness. Apple | has released virtually no information on the internals of | these machines, and they aren't standard PCs like the | Lenovos. Calling them 'open' is absurd, it would be hard | to imagine a publicly released general-purpose computer | that is _less_ open. | Mike_12345 wrote: | > but compared to the Macs, it has a much stronger claim | to openness. | | False. Lenovo hardware contains a lot of proprietary | undocumented parts that required reverse engineering to | get working on Linux/BSD. The parts that didn't require | reverse engineering (Intel GPU) were not made by Lenovo. | | Apple hardware is "open" as far as they don't try to | prevent other operating systems to be installed. | Apparently they made it reasonably straightforward for | the Asahi team. | error503 wrote: | > False. Lenovo hardware contains a lot of proprietary | undocumented parts that required reverse engineering to | get working on Linux/BSD. The parts that didn't require | reverse engineering (Intel GPU) were not made by Lenovo. | | How is it false? Whether the parts were made by Lenovo or | not is irrelevant. It may not be 100% open (and this is | probably not due to parts that Lenovo themselves | created), but it is _substantially_ open, which is far | more than can be said about the Macs, which are virtually | undocumented system-architecture wise, and who knows what | Apple will do in the future to hamstring efforts to use | them outside the walled garden. | | > Apple hardware is "open" as far as they don't try to | prevent other operating systems to be installed. | Apparently they made it reasonably straightforward for | the Asahi team. | | That is not "open", it's just "not openly hostile to | reverse engineering...yet". | Mike_12345 wrote: | > but it is substantially open | | No it is not. I'm amazed that people just don't get this | simple fact. The drivers were reverse engineered. | ThinkPad is not an open platform. It contains some Intel | and AMD stuff that is open, but you can't give credit to | Lenovo for that. | smoldesu wrote: | > Apple hardware is "open" as far as they don't try to | prevent other operating systems to be installed. | | 1. This is not true for "Apple hardware" as a rule. | | 2. Removing support for third-party OSes would be a | shocking product regression for the Macbook. | | 3. If Apple's definition of "Open" excludes any | transparent documentation or explanation, then they have | provided precisely nothing. | | You contradict yourself by praising Apple for keeping | standard features while deriding Lenovo for doing the | same thing. All of this ignores the Linux certification | Lenovo offers on their products, their Linux support | contracts and even the freely-provided firmware updates | through fwupd (something Apple will never provide). | Regardless of whether you characterize "open"-ness as | non-hostility or constructive support, Lenovo is still | the more open company by a country mile. And Lenovo | doesn't even do that much to-boot. | Mike_12345 wrote: | >You contradict yourself by praising Apple for keeping | standard features while deriding Lenovo for doing the | same thing. | | Putting words in my mouth. I never praised Apple and I | never derided Lenovo. I am simply stating the facts. I am | trying to explain that both companies have the same | approach. Neither of them are open source idealists. | Lenovo is not more open than Apple. Apple is not more | open than Lenovo. I am pointing out the double standards | and hypocrisy in this thread. I have owned many Lenovo | and Apple products and I'm not a fanboy of any company. | | > 1. This is not true for "Apple hardware" as a rule. | | It is true for their laptops and desktops. iPhone/iPad | are not relevant to this discussion. | pengaru wrote: | > ThinkPad also has proprietary undocumented subsystems | that are reverse engineered to work on Linux. Such double | standards versus Apple. | | The differentiator for decades now is intel-based | laptops, including thinkpads, have been well-supported by | mainline kernels including GPU support. Support that | Intel has directly funded development and maintenance of. | | Where are the @apple.com commits supporting Apple Silicon | in mainline Linux? | | Even AMD is better as of amdgpu. | Mike_12345 wrote: | Well supported by mainline kernels, thanks to reverse | engineering undocumented proprietary Lenovo hardware. | ThinkPads contain other components besides the GPU. Apple | is not in the business of selling GPUs to other hardware | vendors and the fraction of customers demanding Linux | support is miniscule. Intel supports Linux as a business | decision based on profitability, not open source | idealism. | goosedragons wrote: | What components? Lenovo sells several ThinkPad models | with Linux out of the box. The fingerprint reader is a | source of trouble but it's not a Lenovo part. | Mike_12345 wrote: | [dead] | smoldesu wrote: | > Well supported by mainline kernels, thanks to reverse | engineering undocumented proprietary Lenovo hardware. | | Such as? What "proprietary Lenovo hardware" is | obfuscating my boot process, I'm really curious now. | | > Intel supports Linux as a business decision | | Yes. Intel supports Linux because the concept of selling | Unix doesn't work. Take it from Apple, who gave up on | selling their OS after realizing that people were | _really_ only in it for the hardware. If Intel is the | begrudging neighbor to Open Source software, then Apple | is holding them in a Mexican standoff with their | userbase. Somehow, Intel 's "business decision" manages | to be the more civilized relationship between the two. | Mike_12345 wrote: | [dead] | babypuncher wrote: | This isn't really unique to Apple Silicon. The difference | here is that most proprietary systems Linux has to work | with on PC were reverse engineered many years ago, while AS | is being reverse engineered today. | | The Asahi Linux developers themselves have praised the | openness of Apple Silicon, not because they have access to | documentation or source code that we don't, but because it | seems Apple has gone out of their way to make sure their | platform can securely accommodate third party operating | systems even though they have no incentive to. It's | surprising in contrast to Microsoft, who has been slowly | trying to make booting Linux on PCs that ship with Windows | harder and harder. | | I definitely think calling Apple Silicon an "open platform" | is a bit of a stretch, but it's not the iron clad walled | garden people think it is either. | smoldesu wrote: | > The difference here is that most proprietary systems | Linux has to work with on PC were reverse engineered many | years ago | | Such as what, though? | | Intel and AMD both wrote support for their systems | themselves. Nvidia has long offered a proprietary driver | for Linux users, and even Intel Macbooks were a shoo-in | once the firmware is sorted out. It's been a _long_ time | since someone has approached a full-scale reverse | engineering project like Asahi, and I think | characterizing it as "non-unique" undersells the amount | of bespoke work here. | | Apple made the right move by continuing to allow third- | party OSes, but that's not equivalent to building out | support. The work required to bring up a black-box SOC is | hugely distinct from using first-party drivers to boot | into Linux through UEFI. | cstrahan wrote: | > Such as what, though? | | Drivers for WiFi, audio, Bluetooth, a heap of I2C devices | like keyboards on laptops and temp/fan control, graphics | cards, and much much more. | | Not a single company "built out support" for all these | things. And none of it is covered by some common | interface -- each must be reverse engineered (or | implemented following reference manuals, if they are | available). Intel and AMD did _not_ provide support for | these, because they _can't_ -- the processor architecture | is oblivious of these peripherals. | | I think you're underestimating how much volunteer work | has been done to get Linux to be usable on _any_ machine. | From your wording, I suspect you may think there are some | grand unifying abstractions that, when implemented once, | provide compatibility with most machines, and that Intel | and AMD did just that. But that would be mistaken. | babypuncher wrote: | I'm comparing it more to the state of Linux on PC in the | '90s and early '00s, when most vendors didn't care about | Linux unless you were buying a server. Getting Linux | running on a laptop back then was often a mess of hacky | reverse engineered drivers, sometimes with incomplete or | missing functionality. | | Of course what Asahi Linux has undertaken still feels | like a bigger and more impressive task, I'm just saying | that this kind of work is not entirely unprecedented. The | current Linux ecosystem on Apple Silicon is more | comparable to that of the PC Linux ecosystem from 25 | years ago than from today. | rubenfiszel wrote: | I am neither an Apple lover or an Apple hater. I think Apple | produces extremely well polished products thanks to their | vertical integration and have innovated in hardware pushing | the frontier, especially with the ARM suites. However, they | also have a fairly closed ecosystem in which they are trying | to overprice things when they can abusing their dominant | position. I would feel sad to contribute to its success but I | also selfishly really need the best tool available. | sbuk wrote: | > _However, they also have a fairly closed ecosystem in | which they are trying to overprice things when they can | abusing their dominant position._ | | They have ~16% of the global market. In no way do they have | a dominant position. | rubenfiszel wrote: | Not wanting to start an anti-apple thread but I meant | dominant position in their closed garden. Is that an | abuse or not, I'll let the litigators decide. | smith7018 wrote: | Apple's computers are actually quite competitive when | comparing price-to-performance. Beyond that, they have | great build quality, battery life, components, and support | which all adds up to being a great package for their cost. | Seriously, this whole "Apple is too expensive" talking | point died long ago. When the MacBook Air first came out, | it was $1,800 ($2,500 adjusted for inflation) with a slow | Intel C2D proc. Now you can get an M1 MacBook Air for $1k | or an M2 for $1,200. | nicoburns wrote: | The base models are reasonably competitive. But if you | want to upgrade anything then they become extortionate. | nightski wrote: | I'd argue price/performance is where they are the | weakest. Especially when you want more than the bare | minimum ram or ssd. An Apple replacement for my current | notebook would cost over $5k and I spent a fraction of | that. | | Battery life is really the core differentiator at the | moment. | wtallis wrote: | > An Apple replacement for my current notebook would cost | over $5k and I spent a fraction of that. | | What if you price out a replacement with the full RAM and | SSD capacity you want from the OEM rather than as an | aftermarket upgrade? I think the problem usually is not | so much "Apple over-charges for upgrades" as it is "all | OEMs over-charge for upgrades", with a side of "Apple | uses non-upgradable storage". | tadbit wrote: | > What if you price out a replacement with the full RAM | and SSD capacity you want from the OEM rather than as an | aftermarket upgrade? | | Moot point. Of course if you tie your hands behind your | back your options will be limited. The point, for the | parent, is that they aren't limited by insane markup | pricing. | wtallis wrote: | It's important to correctly identify the underlying | problem and whatever tradeoffs are involved. It's | unproductive to bitch specifically about Apple's | expensive storage and memory upgrades when it's actually | an industry norm. It might be more fruitful to discuss | why OEMs in general are able to get away with such steep | upgrade pricing, and it's definitely more interesting and | appropriate for HN to debate the pros and cons of Apple's | soldered memory and storage. | kaba0 wrote: | Did you take into account the different RAM architecture? | Sure you can get bigger RAM, but that's not nearly the | same as what the M series offers (and it shows on | benchmarks) - you might be better off with a 16GB | MacBook, than a 32GB other laptop. Oh, and it's not like | this form factor/higher quality displays, etc would be | cheap by other manufacturers. | leidenfrost wrote: | A someone with an M1 pro, keep in mind that there's no support | for external monitors aside fron the main laptop display, yet. | tpmoney wrote: | Are you talking about support under Asahi because MacOS | definitely does have support: | | > Display Support | | > Simultaneously supports full native resolution on the | built-in display | | > at 1 billion colors and: | | > | | > Up to two external displays with up to 6K resolution at | 60Hz at over a | | > billion colors (M1 Pro) or | | > Up to three external displays with up to 6K resolution and | one external | | > display with up to 4K resolution at 60Hz at over a billion | colors (M1 Max) | | > | | > Thunderbolt 4 digital video output | | > | | > Native DisplayPort output over USB-C | | > VGA, HDMI, DVI, and Thunderbolt 2 output supported using | adapters (sold | | > separately) | | > | | > HDMI digital video output | | > | | > Support for one display with up to 4K resolution at 60Hz | | > DVI output using HDMI to DVI Adapter (sold separately) | | https://support.apple.com/kb/SP854?viewlocale=en_US&locale=e. | .. | oflebbe wrote: | using an external monitor on an m1 pro at work. | fsiefken wrote: | Does this mean that SteamVR can run on Asahi Linux and macbook | now? | freedomben wrote: | Even if you don't care a lot about Apple, this is still a great | read. | | If you're a layman it can be hard to find information on how | graphics works that is technical enough (uses terms like "user | space" and "kernel"), but simple and high-level enough for | somebody who doesn't know much. There is stuff like that | throughout the piece. | | Here's the first example: | | > _In every modern OS, GPU drivers are split into two parts: a | userspace part, and a kernel part. The kernel part is in charge | of managing GPU resources and how they are shared between apps, | and the userspace part is in charge of converting commands from a | graphics API (such as OpenGL or Vulkan) into the hardware | commands that the GPU needs to execute._ | | > _Between those two parts, there is something called the | Userspace API or "UAPI". This is the interface that they use to | communicate between them, and it is specific to each class of | GPUs! Since the exact split between userspace and the kernel can | vary depending on how each GPU is designed, and since different | GPU designs require different bits of data and parameters to be | passed between userspace and the kernel, each new GPU driver | requires its own UAPI to go along with it._ | derefr wrote: | On a tangent from that quote, I'm curious how much extra perf | we could squeeze from GPUs if the applications driving them | were running in kernel mode (picture an oldschool boot-from- | floppy game, but in the modern day as a unikernel), and | therefore the "GPU driver" was just a straight kernel API that | didn't need any context switching or serialized | userspace/kernelspace protocol, but could rely on directly | building kernel-trustable data structures and handing them off | to be rendered. | | Presumably there was an era of console games that did things | this way, back before game consoles had OSes -- but since that | would be about 10-15 years ago now (the Gamecube + PS2 era) | it'd be somewhat hard to judge from that what the perf margin | for modern devices would be, since the modern rendering | pipeline is so different than back then. | speed_spread wrote: | You could start anew from an OS like TempleOS with a flat | memory space and direct access to hardware. But it will be | hard to compare until you have real world scenarios with | modern apps on both platforms. | MrRadar wrote: | That's the premise behind this amusing presentation: | https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and- | death... | cesarb wrote: | > I'm curious how much extra perf we could squeeze from GPUs | if the applications driving them were running in kernel mode | [...] could rely on directly building kernel-trustable data | structures and handing them off to be rendered. | | Probably not much. Applications already directly build data | structures in userspace and hand them off to be rendered by | the hardware; the kernel intervention is minimal, and AFAIK | mostly concerns itself with memory allocation and queue | management. | monocasa wrote: | Exactly. In fact Mantle/Vulkan/Metal/DX12 is based on the | realization that with full GPU MMUs user space can only | crash its own context, so it's safe to give access to | console like APIs on desktop systems, and only have the | kernel driver mediate user space as much as the kernel | mediates access to the CPU. | dijit wrote: | > On a tangent from that quote, I'm curious how much extra | perf we could squeeze from GPUs if the applications driving | them were running in kernel mode (picture an oldschool boot- | from-floppy game, but in the modern day as a unikernel) | | Presumably you're quite seasoned so I would assume you'd | know: but Windows itself put a lot of its graphics rendering | in kernel-space, they saw considerable performance gains from | doing so but suffered 2 decades of severe bugs in rendering. | endorphine wrote: | And the end goal is to upstream all the work so that we can run, | for example, Debian in Macs? | | Also, is anyone else afraid of the possibility of Apple deciding | to screw us up by imposing restrictions to prevent people | specifically from doing this for...reasons? | kitsunesoba wrote: | As I understand it, while the core pieces required for Linux to | run on Apple Silicon will be upstreamed, there are parts that | smooth the experience out and make it more practical that are | unlikely to be integrated into other distributions, which | necessitates Asahi's continued existence as a distribution. | Wowfunhappy wrote: | It should be noted, Marcan has said that the ultimate, | eventual goal is for Asahi to no longer have to exist as a | distro. That may be a long way off however! | htag wrote: | This is a similar model to the KDE Neon distribution, which | upstreams basically everything but gives some benefit to | developers working on the KDE project. | kaba0 wrote: | > Also, is anyone else afraid of the possibility of Apple | deciding to screw us up by imposing restrictions to prevent | people specifically from doing this for...reasons? | | According to Marcan, Apple explicitly went out of their way to | support secure booting of other OSs as well. | | Also, it's hard to predict, but I think it would only increase | revenue if the small, but rich linux-using software community | would choose MacBooks as "the next thinkpads", and it's not | like most people would not just have both OSs available and | switch between them. | leonewton253 wrote: | I think better time would be spent getting Full Vulkan on MacOS | with proton support. The amount of people wanting to run Linux on | Macs is waaay lower than with Windows PCs. | malermeister wrote: | Hard disagree. Apple Silicon is by far best in class, but the | OS it ships with feels like a toy to me. Can't wait for the | hardware to be liberated. | NexRebular wrote: | Can't wait indeed, they will be excellent BSD machines when | all is said and done. | radicaldreamer wrote: | Why does MacOS feel like a toy? It's the primary OS for a | huge number of developers (at least in the Bay Area) who are | doing plenty of production work on it every day. | | Fully support bringing a well supported Linux distro to the | hardware but MacOS is nothing like ChromeOS or some sort of | thin client operating system. | ofchnofc wrote: | [dead] | sebzim4500 wrote: | Not GP but I also believe that MacOS feels like a toy. | | All the icons are jumping around everywhere, everything is | colourful, it's 2023 and you can't maximize a window or | make it take up half the screen, etc. | | I also hate the touch bar but I'd probably get used to | that. I used a pre-touchbar Air for a few months and going | back to windows felt amazing. | | I am eagerly waiting for Asahi to be usable as a daily | driver, my next laptop will probably run Apple silicon. | daaaaaaan wrote: | Mouse over the green window button, hold down option and | you can maximize, and tile to the left/right of the | screen. | [deleted] | Bloomy22 wrote: | It is also possible to configure the double-click | behaviour on the title bar to zoom the windows without | fullscreen them... | malermeister wrote: | * poor window management | | * no built-in package manager | | * low hackability/customizability | | * constant code signing prompts with 3rd party software, my | OS is fighting me trying to use software | | * constant prompts to please finally sign into icloud | | * deprecated OpenGL | | * general handholding in the OS getting in the way | kouteiheika wrote: | With all due respect, no offense, but I find comments like this | a little bit disrespectful. | | These are a couple of volunteers, working for free, and you're | saying that it'd be better for them to volunteer their time for | the benefit of a huge trillion dollar corporation and work on | something that the aforementioned corporation explicitly does | _not_ want (but could very easily do itself). | DeathArrow wrote: | Mail Apple and ask for Vulkan support. | p_j_w wrote: | Then go ahead and do it, but why should the Asahi Linux people | take this into consideration? The entire point of the project | is to get Linux running on ARM Macs. That's what they | personally want and there's no reason for them to make market | share considerations. | matthoiland wrote: | I love reading things like this that reinforce my belief that I | personally know very little about anything. _back to writing CSS | for me :)_ | ahelwer wrote: | The key to understanding this world is that nearly everybody | does these things full time for their own interest. Trying to | accumulate this level of expertise on nights & weekends is an | express train to burnout. On the other hand if your financial | needs are satisfied (worked at FAMANG for a decade while being | frugal, doing contracts for 1/3 of the year & being frugal, | married a doctor, got into cryptocurrency early, donations if | you're anomalously popular) and you're reveling in the joy of | self-indulging exploration, learning, and tinkering without | having to worry about giving an update at daily standup | tomorrow, it's amazing what you can accomplish. Knowledge is | cumulative. Within a few years many people could be at this | level. This is part of why UBI is so popular within software | engineering circles, because you really don't need _that_ many | resources to just be in it for the love of the game. | | On the other hand having kids is basically anathema to being | able to live this life. So you are choosing work (in a broader | sense of term than conventionally used) over family. | PaulDavisThe1st wrote: | I'm the father to a 27 year old, step-father to a 31 and 33 | year old. I started my journey into audio software when my | daughter was about 2 years old and I was a stay-at-home | parent. I'm often considered one of the most senior people in | audio software development in the world now (a bit of an | illusion caused by the invisibility of people inside | proprietary development processes, but I'll take it). | | I can take you on a deep dive into every aspect of audio | software. My kids and my wife did not obstruct that, and if | anything, having responsibilities towards them forced me to | be even better at the process that got me to where I am | today. | Version467 wrote: | Thanks for posting this. I see kids in my not too distant | future and while I personally don't believe this I see lots | and lots of comments on the internet saying that having | kids basically stops everything else dead in its tracks for | ~2 decades. | | There are so few people with experiences like yours that | it's sometimes hard to not let that get into my head. | | So it's refreshing to see a different opinion. | ahelwer wrote: | A lot of generalities don't really apply to you if you | were one of the two other people building Amazon.com in | Bezos' garage: https://www.wired.com/1999/03/bezos-3/ | Version467 wrote: | I don't know what I expected, but it certainly wasn't | that. Thanks for letting me know. Though I really don't | know what to make of this now (if anything). | PaulDavisThe1st wrote: | Maybe see my reply adjacent to yours in this subthread. | PaulDavisThe1st wrote: | Amzn allowed me to (a) be a stay-at-home parent (b) work | on a FLOSS project for several (maybe 10) years without | needing to generate any revenue. | | It did not have any impact on my curiosity or learning | process during the journey I've been on for the last 25 | years. | | The point is the the presence (or absence) of children is | not determinative of your ability to deep-dive. Or so I | am claiming. | ahelwer wrote: | Right! My original quip about children was more about | financial constraints than anything. Not trying to shame | you or anything, I think using the Amazon windfall to | work on FOSS is absolutely the dream and one of the best | possible ways you could have contributed to the world. | PaulDavisThe1st wrote: | It's a fair point that being able to tinker on FLOSS | while my kid(s) were at school rather than having a full | time job and leaving the tinkering for late at night was | probably quite beneficial. | | Nevertheless, I would still like to claim that kids or | not is not determinative of your ability to do the deep | dive. | | I'd also like to think that some distance in the future, | it will be raising my daughter will turn out to have been | the best possible way I contributed to the world. This | software stuff is, in the end, a distraction for the most | part (especially when there are/were already so many | options in the particular niche that Ardour occupies). | ahelwer wrote: | Sorry, I should have specified: my post was specifically | concerning FOSS development. Of course people inside large | companies developing proprietary software can attain a high | level of knowledge about whatever field even if they have | families, because they're working on it full time over many | years and being paid for it. | | Although it's unclear, perhaps you are talking about FOSS | development (actually looking up Ardour from your profile, | yes you definitely are). That's very impressive, then! So | you did manage to juggle having a full-time job, FOSS | development, and a family? | PaulDavisThe1st wrote: | I was initially financially independent (due to amzn), | playing the role of stay-at-home parent and slowly | expanding the FLOSS project's role; in about 2008, the | FLOSS project became my only source of revenue. | ozarker wrote: | "Since the Mesa driver no longer serializes GPU and CPU work, | performance has improved a ton. Now we can run Xonotic at over | 800 FPS, which is faster than macOS on the same hardware (M2 | MacBook Air) at around 600*! This proves that open source reverse | engineered GPU drivers really have the power to beat Apple's | drivers in real-world scenarios!" | | Wow that's impressive! | dev_tty01 wrote: | It is impressive, but worth noting that the macOS version was | running x86 code under Rosetta. Hmm, I guess that's also | impressive... | carlycue wrote: | It's kind of hilarious how the entire conversation about CPU's | have steered towards Apple's chips. No one talks about or | mentions AMD or Intel chips anymore outside of gaming circles... | grog454 wrote: | Are there server circles? I'd guess they talk about intel and | AMD more than Apple. | LeonenTheDK wrote: | Definitely are, lots of talk of general ARM usage in the | server space in those circles, particularly when it comes to | AWS' Graviton, or other hardware/cloud offerings. | diffeomorphism wrote: | Because it is kinda boring? Just like M2 is much less | interesting than M1. Current gen Intel or AMD chips are like | 10% to 20% faster than apple (which apple acknowledges in their | marketing and hence points at performance per Watt). Intel uses | about the same energy at idle but about double at load. AMD has | about the same efficiency (work per Watthour) under load but | worse idle. And now nothing is happening until the next | release. | | > No one talks about.. | | Yeah, nobody cares unless something new comes out. | sampa wrote: | you live in a bubble | smcl wrote: | I follow Lina, Alyssa and Hector from the Asahi team on Mastodon | and all three were great choices to follow. They all post | interesting stuff regularly, and Lina in particular is great. She | regularly livestreams her coding sessions, announcing what she'll | work on ahead of time so you can set yourself a little reminder. | I'm really in awe of these people. | whatever1 wrote: | Does anyone pay these people for their awesome work ? | | Every time I see their progress in a such undocumented space, my | jaw drops. Huge respect. | dharmab wrote: | Most of them accept donations: | | > If you want to support my work, you can donate to marcan's | Asahi Linux support fund on GitHub Sponsors or Patreon, which | helps me out too! And if you're looking forward to a Vulkan | driver, check out Ella's GitHub Sponsors page! | | Lina also accepts donations on her streams. I think Alyssa is | funded by her employer, but I'm not sure. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-03-20 23:00 UTC)