[HN Gopher] Adobe Firefly: AI Art Generator ___________________________________________________________________ Adobe Firefly: AI Art Generator Author : adrian_mrd Score : 612 points Date : 2023-03-21 13:55 UTC (9 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.adobe.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.adobe.com) | NaN1352 wrote: | What's interesting to me is how this only works because of prior | art. | | BUT, when prior art will be AI-assisted if not 99% generated art, | from a pool of prior human art ever so slowly diminishing... | where is this going? | | For one, "art" can only lessen in value. Perhaps physical art | will grow in value as digital art's "made by without AI" tag | becomes unprovable and meaningless. | | I think it's bad. Whomever provides these tools is not refilling | the pool of prior human art, only muddying it up. Therefore | everything will converge. It was quite obvious already the way | eg. most webapps nowadays have the same boring design... but this | is worse. | | But I don't know it must be the inevitable evolution, perhaps | this is how we will end our differences... as human's "collective | mind" becomes more and more evident. | Thorentis wrote: | As an accelerationist, I can see an upside. Human culture has | been in decline for decades, with mainstream art (of all kinds) | rapidly declining in creativity and value. There are always | exceptions, but I think this was and is the trend. | | This AI trend will turn our attention back to what it truly | means to be an artist. From the muddy waters of AI art will | shine the true works of art that only humans are capable of | producing. This will raise the barrier to entry and increase | true arts value. This imo will be a good thing. | joe_the_user wrote: | This could be a problem but it seems to like Adobe and other | stock image owner may be in a better position to deal with it | than companies scanning things from the open net. | | Lots of arts/craft are kept alive because they form the basis | for more automated processes and this may well continue with | simple painting and photography. | faizshah wrote: | At this point someone is going to make a startup off just | managing your AI waitlists. (Kidding) | turnsout wrote: | So tempted to throw GPT4 at this problem and launch it today. | petargyurov wrote: | Will there be a waitlist? | turnsout wrote: | Of course, that would be at least 50% of the joke! haha | neoromantique wrote: | AI Waitlist Management Solutions (AWMS) is a startup that | aims to streamline and manage the ever-increasing demand | for AI services by providing a one-stop platform for | tracking and managing AI waitlists. Leveraging the | advanced capabilities of GPT-4, our service will analyze | the market, monitor AI waitlist positions, and provide | customers with real-time updates on their status. | Additionally, AWMS will offer recommendations on | alternative services and provide estimated wait times for | better decision-making. Our target audience includes | businesses and individuals who require AI services and | are looking for a way to efficiently manage their place | in multiple queues, as well as AI service providers | seeking to optimize their waitlist management processes. | | To further enhance our value proposition, we will | incorporate a waitlist for our own platform, adding a | sense of exclusivity and generating buzz around our | service. This humorous, self-referential twist will serve | as a unique marketing strategy, setting us apart from | competitors and attracting potential clients. Our revenue | model will include a tiered subscription plan, offering | various features and services at different price points | to cater to a wide range of customers. With a strong | focus on customer satisfaction and continuous | improvement, AWMS will strive to become the go-to | solution for managing AI waitlists and revolutionize the | way users access and interact with AI services. | nathanasmith wrote: | And they say AI can't be funny. | yieldcrv wrote: | There were/are airdrop farmers doing that in the crypto space | | Airdrops can be very lucrative (5, 6 figures with market depth | supported by VCs allowing easy conversion to cash) | lelandfe wrote: | From that page's FAQs: | | > trained on a dataset of Adobe Stock, along with openly licensed | work and public domain content where copyright has expired | | > We do not train on any Creative Cloud subscribers' personal | content. For Adobe Stock contributors, the content is part of the | Firefly training dataset, in accordance with Stock Contributor | license agreements. The first model did not train on Behance. | | Not sure what "first model" means there. | | Also interesting: | https://helpx.adobe.com/stock/contributor/help/firefly-faq-f... | | > During the beta phase of Adobe Firefly, any Adobe Firefly | generated assets cannot be used for commercial purposes. | | > _Can I opt [my Adobe Stock content] of the dataset training?_ | | > No, there is no option to opt-out of data set training for | content submitted to Stock. However, Adobe is continuing to | explore the possibility of an opt-out. | spookie wrote: | I strongly suggest everyone to read this: | https://techcrunch.com/2023/01/06/is-adobe-using-your-photos... | | I hope it's fair to say that they do train on your work. | mesh wrote: | We dont. More info here: | | >The insights obtained through content analysis will not be | used to re-create your content or lead to identifying any | personal information. | | https://helpx.adobe.com/manage-account/using/machine- | learnin... | spookie wrote: | Thanks for the response. This and the proposed compensation | for stock contributions demonstrate that you are taking the | right and correct path. | | I hope you do continue doing so. I'm all but disappointed | in others' approaches in this area, and it paints a very | bad image for the potential of AI as tools. | theFletch wrote: | > trained on a dataset of Adobe Stock, along with openly | licensed work and public domain content where copyright has | expired | | As someone who has contributed stock to Adobe Stock I'm not | sure how I feel about this. I'm sure they have language in | their TOS that covers this, but I'm guessing all contributors | will see nothing out of this. Fine if this is free forever, but | this is Adobe. | judge2020 wrote: | Still on the fence for whether or not you should be able to opt | out of training (I'm sure many artists would love to "opt out" | of humans looking at their art if the human intends to, or | might, copy the artists' style at some point). | egypturnash wrote: | hi, I'm an artist, I do not give a shit about other humans | looking at my work, I am _delighted_ when a younger pro comes | to me and thanks me for what they learnt from my work. That | tells me they were fascinated enough with it to _look_ at it | and _analyze_ it again and again. I made a connection with | them via my drawing skills. | | I am catastrophically unhappy at the prospect of a | corporation ingesting a copy of my work and stuffing it into | a for-profit machine without my permission. If my work ends | up significantly influencing a generated image you love, | _nobody will ever know_. You will never become a fan of my | work through this. You will never contribute to my Patreon. | You will never run into me at a convention and tell me how | influential my work was to something in your life. Instead, | the corporation will get another few pennies, and that is | all. | teaearlgraycold wrote: | Is there a license that exists that you could put on your | work to prevent its use in model training? | egypturnash wrote: | Not as far as I know. There needs to be one, and | internet-scrapers need to be able to be sued for | ludicrous amounts of money if they violate it, IMHO. | Training AI models feels way outside the scope of what I | think "fair use" should cover. | judge2020 wrote: | They do not currently operate on the basis of fair use. | Operating as a human by looking at images and learning | how to draw or paint is not 'fair use', it's a right | given to you by either God or Mother Nature, so the legal | basis for neural nets learning from other art is that | it's learning like a human and creating new art from just | knowing what art human think is good and optimizing its | creation of art to mimic if not borrow the same qualities | while still making something new. | egypturnash wrote: | As far as I know there are no religions or legal systems | that posit that there are _any_ rights inherently given | to machines. | astrange wrote: | Non-commercial internet scraping for model creation is | explicitly legal in the EU; the result of a model trained | on a billion images really has nothing to do with anyone | in particular's art. Although the model would likely work | pretty well without ever seeing any "art" images. | judge2020 wrote: | If, as I alluded to, you and the SCOTUS (and other | courts) interpret AI art as similar enough to humans | where the 'training' process is analogous to a human | looking at art and learning how to create good art (or | even copy another artist's style), then the license you | apply to art does not matter, because it'd just be | "learning" about how art works, and not any actual usage | of the original work. In this case the AI would be | considered a human for the purposes of copyright | infringement, where it would infringe on the original | work if it recited or recreated any single work from | memory without any substantial changes to turn it into | either a parody (fair use) or its own work separate from | the images it has learned from, even if it mimics the art | style of any single artist (since artists can't copyright | their styles). | BornInChicago wrote: | I'm an artist as well. I think this can happen whenever | anyone sees your art anywhere online. They can copy it. | They won't tell you about it. They might copy it really | well. And they might copy not just your technical style, | but what your art says and how it says it. | madeofpalk wrote: | Should Github Copilot be trained on private, closed-source, | proprietary code? | grondo4 wrote: | Yes, AI should be trained on every piece of information | possible. Am I allowed to become a better programmer by | looking at private, (illegally leaked) closed-source, | proprietary code? | mrelectric wrote: | You're obviously not | grondo4 wrote: | Is that a joke? | | Yes you are allowed to read closed-source, proprietary | code and become a better programmer for it. | | I've decompiled games to learn how they structure their | code to improve the structure of games that I program. I | had no right to that code and I used it to become a | better programmer just like AI do. | | That's not copyright infringement. You have a right to | stop me from using your code, not learning from it. | Dalewyn wrote: | Now granted most EULAs and Terms of Service documents | aren't legally enforced, most software licenses | explicitly prohibit decompiling or otherwise | disassembling binaries. | | So, yes: They have a right to stop you from "learning" | from their code. If you want that right, see if they're | willing to sell that right to you. | grondo4 wrote: | > They have a right to stop you from "learning" from | their code. | | They absolutely do not, and as pedantic as it may be I | think it's very important that you and everyone else in | this thread know what their rights are. | | If you sign a contract / EULA that says you cannot | decompile someone's code than yes you are liable for any | damages promised in that contract for violating it. | | But who says that I ever signed a EULA for the games I | decompiled? Who says I didn't find a copy on a hard drive | I bought at a yard sale or someone sent me the decompiled | binary themselves? | | Those people may have violated the contract but I did | not. | | There is no law preventing you from learning from code, | art, film or any other copyrighted media. Nor is there | any law (or should there be any law IMO) that stops an AI | from learning from copyrighted media. | | Learning from each other regardless of intellectual | property law is how the human race advances itself. The | fact that we've managed to that automate human progress | is incredible, and it's very good that our laws are the | way they are that we can allow that to happen. | Alchemista wrote: | This is a pretty extreme stance. There is a fine line | between "learning from" proprietary code and outright | stealing some of the key insights and IP. Sometimes it | takes a very difficult conceptual leap to solve some of | the more difficult computer science and math problems. | "Learning" (aka stealing) someone's solution is very | problematic and will get you sued if you are not careful. | skeaker wrote: | If you think that's extreme, wait until you hear my | stance that code shouldn't be something that you can own | (and can therefore "steal") to begin with. | [deleted] | madeofpalk wrote: | No https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design | grondo4 wrote: | I didn't ask if can I use other people's proprietary | closed source code, obviously they have the right to that | code and how it's used. | | I asked if I can learn from that code, which obviously I | can. There is no license that says "You cannot learn from | this code and take the things you learn to become a | better programmer". | | That's exactly what I do and it's exactly what AI do. | ghaff wrote: | If you study a closed source compiler (or whatever) in | order to write a competitive product, and the company who | wrote the original product sues you for copying it, as | the parent suggests, you're on shaky legal ground. Which | is why clean room design is a thing. | nickelpro wrote: | A clean room design ensures the new code is 100% | original, and not a copy of the base code. That is why it | is legally preferable, because it is easy to prove | certain facts in court. | | But fundamentally the problem is copyright, the copying | of existing IP, not knowledge. grondo4 is completely | correct that there is no legal framework that prevents | _learning_ from closed-source IP. | | If such a framework existed, clean room design would not | work. The initial spec-writers in a clean room design are | reading the protected work. | ghaff wrote: | >The initial spec-writers in a clean room design are | reading the closed-source work. | | Right. And they're only exposing elements presumably not | covered by copyright to the developers writing the code. | (Of course, this assumes they had legitimate access to | the code in the first place.) | | Clean room design isn't a requirement in the case of, | say, writing a BIOS which may have been when this first | came up. But it's a lot easier to defend against a | copyright claim when it's documented that the people who | wrote the code never saw the original. | | Unlike with patents, independent creation isn't a | copyright violation. | nickelpro wrote: | I don't understand what your point here is. The initial | spec-writers learned from the original code. This is not | illegal, we seem to be agreed on this point. grondo made | the point that learning from code should not be | prohibited. | | What are you contesting? | ghaff wrote: | My point was that, assuming access to the code was legit, | and the information being passed from the spec-writers to | the developers wasn't covered by copyright (basically | APIs and the like), it's a much better defense against a | copyright claim that any code written by the developers | isn't a copyright violation given they _never saw_ the | original code. | bioemerl wrote: | I think you're missing the one big flaw here. How exactly | do you have access to closed source code? | | Did you acquire it illegally? That's illegal. | | Was it publicly available? That's fine, so long as you | aren't producing exact copies and violate normal | copyright law. | supermatt wrote: | > I asked if I can learn from that code, which obviously | I can. | | Did you actually read the link you were given? Clean room | design is because you may inadvertently plagiarize | copyrighted works from your memory of reading it. | | i.e. the act of reading may cause accidental infringement | when implementing the "things you learn" | grondo4 wrote: | > i.e. the act of reading may cause accidental | infringement when implementing the "things you learn" | | Surely you know this isn't the case right? Maybe you're | confused because we're talking about programming and not | a different creative artform? | | Great artists read, watch and consume copyrighted works | of art all day, if they didn't they wouldn't be great | artists. And yet the content they produce is entirely | there own, free from the copyright of the works they | learned from. | | What's the difference then in programming? Why can an | artist be trusted not to reproduce the copyrighted works | that they learned from but not the programmer? | supermatt wrote: | > Why can an artist be trusted not to reproduce the | copyrighted works that they learned from but not the | programmer? | | They cant. which is why that quote "Good artists copy, | great artists steal" exists. | | AI has already been shown to be "accidentally" | reproducing copyrighted work. You too, can do the same. | | Its likely no-one (including yourself) will ever be aware | of it - but strictly speaking it would still be copyright | infringement. This is the relevance and context of the | link you were given. | nickelpro wrote: | If everyone is infringing copyright, no one is infringing | copyright. This is a dead-end thought. | waboremo wrote: | Artists get into trouble all the time for producing works | very close to something that already exist. That's like | the number one reason artists get shunned in the | communities they were in. | nickelpro wrote: | Every filmmaker watches movies | | Every author reads books | | Every painter view paintings | | Unless you're arguing that every single artist across | every field of artistic expression is constantly being | jeopardized by claims of copyright infringement, this is | a nonsensical point to make. | waboremo wrote: | But they're not creating similar works, unlike AI which | IS. Why is this so complicated for you? | BornInChicago wrote: | I would seriously question if this happens all the time, | these days. The whole copyright thing is way behind the | digital and internet revolution. Look at what the Prince | case did for transformation copyright fair use. | astrange wrote: | The process of online artists shaming each other doesn't | really have anything to do with the legal system, though | they all act like it is. | nickelpro wrote: | Sure but the infringement is the problem, not the ideas | themselves. | | You're describing thought crime right now. It's not | illegal to learn things. | supermatt wrote: | And if you "learn" something and accidentally rewrite it | verbatim? Thats what clean-room design is to protect | against | nickelpro wrote: | Rewriting the code verbatim and distributing it would be | a copyright infringement, yes, you do not have a write to | distribute code written by other people | | That's completely different from reading and learning | from code, which is what grondo described. | | Clean room design _relies_ on this, in a clean room | design you have one party read and describe the protected | work, and another party implement it. That first party | reading the protected work _is learning from closed- | source IP_. | supermatt wrote: | > That's completely different from reading and learning | from code, which is what grondo described. | | AI (e.g. copilot) has already been shown to break | copyright of material in its training set. Thats the | context of this whole thread. | nickelpro wrote: | Perhaps, but not of Grondo's point. | | If an AI infringes on copyright then it infringes on | copyright, that's unfortunate for the distributors of | that code. | | Humans accidentally infringe on copyright sometimes too. | It's not a unique problem to machine learning. The | potential to infringe on copyright has not made | observing/learning/watching/reading copyright materials | prohibited for humans, nor should it or (likely) will it | become prohibited for machine learning algorithms. | supermatt wrote: | > Perhaps, but not of Grondo's point. | | Grondo said that AI should be given access to all code, | including private and unlicensed code. | | He was given a link to Clean Room Design demonstrating | the problem with the same entity (the AI) reading and | learning from the existing code and the risk of | regurgitation when writing new code. | | He goes on to say thats what he does, which doesn't | change that fact. | | > Humans accidentally infringe on copyright sometimes | too. | | Indeed we do, and its almost entirely unnoticed, even by | the author. | | > nor should it or (likely) will it become illegal for | machine learning algorithms. | | If those machine learning algorithms are taking in | unlicensed material and then they later output unlicensed | and/or copyrighted material, then they are a liability. | Why would you want that when you can train it otherwise | and be sure it NEVER infringes others IP? Its a no- | brainer, surely. Or are you assuming there is some magic | inherent in other peoples private code? | nickelpro wrote: | > If those machine learning algorithms are taking in | unlicensed material and then they later output unlicensed | and/or copyrighted material, then they are a liability. | Why would you want that when you can train it otherwise | and be sure it NEVER infringes others IP? | | Because it could produce a better model that produces | better code. | | You're now arguing a heavily reduced point. That a model | that trained on proprietary code is _at higher risk_ of | reproducing infringing code is not a point under | contention. The clean room serves the same purpose, it is | a risk mitigation strategy. | | Risk mitigation is a choice, left up to individuals. | Maybe you use a clean room design, maybe you don't. Maybe | you use a model trained on closed-source IP, maybe you | don't. There are risks associated with these choices, but | that is up to individuals to make. | | The choice to observe closed source IP and learn from it | shouldn't be prohibited just because some won't want to | assume that risk. | ClumsyPilot wrote: | > Am I allowed to become a better programmer by looking | at private code? | | Your argument is based on the idea that you and AI should | have the same rights? | | I do not see how this works unless AI going to be | entitled to minimum wage and paid leave? | | Otherwise it is just a money grab | sebzim4500 wrote: | He's not saying that he and the AI have the same rights, | rather that he and the person running the AI have the | same rights. | omoikane wrote: | One motivation for artists to create and share new work | is the expectation that most people won't just outright | copy their work, based on the social norm that stealing | is dishonorable. This social norm comes with some level | of legal protection, but it largely depends on a common | expectation of what is considered stealing or not. | | Once we have adopted the attitude that we can just copy | as we please without attribution, it would be much more | difficult to find motivated artists, and we would have | failed as a society. | spoiler wrote: | It's not quite the same... And I'm not sure how people on HN | of all places are failing to grasp that these algorithms | aren't sentinet, much less people. | | I think this is incredibly cool technology, but using other | people's property without their consent is stealing (I'm not | talking about legality, but morality here). | | The second reason why it's not the same is that people can't | look at X million pictures and become proficient in | _thousands_ of different art styles. So, again its not | legality but more about ethics. | | I guess different people have lower moral standards than | others, and that's always been part of the human condition. | | With all that out of the way, I think artists won't get | replaced, because these tools don't really produce | anything... Substantial on their own. An artist still needs | to compose them to tell a story. So, all this nonsense about | how it will replace artists is misguided. It can only replace | some parts of an artist's workflow. | | I know there was an art competition where someone won with a | piece that was AI-aided, but honestly it looked like colour | sludge. The only thing that was really well executed in it | was the drama created by the contrast from sharp changes in | values near the centre of that work, and something vaguely | resembling a humanoid silhouette against it. You could've | called it abstract art if you squinted. | jonahrd wrote: | But these stock image artists provided consent when signing | a contract and selling their work to Adobe. The contract is | pretty clear that you basically don't own the work anymore | and Adobe can do whatever they want with it. | | If you don't like it, don't sign the contract. | spoiler wrote: | Oh right, sorry. I was talking generally, not | specifically to Firefly. | | Yeah, I think Adobe is a publisher and as such, you give | it distribution rights. So, I agree with you on this | case. | | Slightly tangential, but Imagine a singer or actor's | voice of face being used without their consent just | because the publisher has rights to distribute their | performance. That probably wouldn't fly very well, and I | assume this doesn't fly with some artists either (even | though they signed a contract). | | I assume publishers will probably have an AI consent form | soon. | | It's all very exciting, and I hope we don't ruin it with | greed and disregard for the works of the very people that | made these technologies so successful. Like, if it | weren't for the scraped works, the AI feats would've been | both much more underwhelming and and much more expensive | to train. | ryanjshaw wrote: | I'm curious, do you hold the same beliefs about text? | | Do you think ChatGPT should not be allowed to read books | and join ideas across them without paying the original | authors for their contribution to the thought? | spoiler wrote: | I do! If they aren't in some way public domain, then the | authors should have a say, or be if the work is | purchased. | | I have a bit of cognitive dissonance on the subject of | blog posts or articles in general, since those are kinda | public domain? But I still think it should be opt in/out- | able. | | I realise I'm also a bit of a hypocrite since I've | enjoyed playing with these AI tools myself, and I realise | they'd be nowhere as cool if they didn't have access to | such large datasets. | lelandfe wrote: | IANAL: Authorship is protected in the US by default | https://www.copyright.gov/engage/writers | | In order for blog posts (or other written works) to be in | the public domain, authors must explicitly waive those | rights. But, not that it needs saying, copyright's | applicability in training data is basically the entire | subject of debate right now. | https://creativecommons.org/2023/02/17/fair-use-training- | gen... | spoiler wrote: | Ah, I had no idea that was protected too! That's good. I | think the reason I was morally on the fence was that | people already put blog posts out with the intent of | sharing their knowledge with the rest of the Internet... | | So my assumption was that anything trained on it will | just help further expand that knowledge. | | Although I do realise now as I'm typing this--AI could | diminish their audience, clout and motivation, which | isn't what I'd want. | dahwolf wrote: | "I guess different people have lower moral standards than | others, and that's always been part of the human | condition." | | Instead of lower morality, I'd say it's selective morality. | | I bet quite a few artists (rightfully) feeling threatened | by this phenomenon would have absolutely no problem | watching a pirated movie, using an ad blocker, read | paywall-stripped articles, the like....whilst this is | principally the same thing: taking the work of others | without consent or compensation. | throwthrowuknow wrote: | > I'm sure many artists would love to "opt out" of humans | looking at their art if the human intends to, or might, copy | the artists' style at some point | | I'm pretty sure that would be a death knell for art. Where | are these mythical artists who have never looked at anyone | else's art? | omoikane wrote: | It's the same problem with fake copies of Van Gogh and so | forth, except historically those fakes were produced at a | much slower rate because of the time needed to master the | skills to produce those fakes. With modern tools, those | fakes could be mass produced, while the original artists | are still alive. | judge2020 wrote: | > It's the same problem with fake copies of Van Gogh and | so forth, except historically those fakes were produced | at a much slower rate because of the time needed to | master the skills to produce those fakes. With modern | tools, those fakes could be mass produced, while the | original artists are still alive. | | Those people got in trouble for recreating specific | works, or creating new works in his style and defrauding | people by saying they were originals. Safe to say that | not disclosing "this is not actually a work created by | <artist>, just in their style" would be grounds for | fraud, especially if you were to sell it. | zirgs wrote: | I can train a LORA on my own PC in less than an hour. Good | luck opting out of that. | waboremo wrote: | What does that matter? Generate as much as you want for | your own personal reasons. | | It's about actually being able to use that content legally | (and commercially) that matters to most in this | conversation. | zirgs wrote: | AI training is a one-way operation - you can't | reconstruct the dataset from a model/lora/ti. Unless it's | something really blatant like real people, widely | recognised copyrighted characters like Batman or Iron Man | - it's going to be hard to prove that someone used your | art to train an AI model. I'm not required to publish my | model or the datasets that I used anywhere. | madeofpalk wrote: | I can trivially torrent movies at home also. But then going | out and selling them is widely accepted as being "wrong". | smrtinsert wrote: | I would not be surprised if behind the scenes they are starting | the lobbying engine to safely mine whatever they want. The | universe of existing content out there is simply too enticing | and out there. This is Google Search vs authors all over again. | tonmoy wrote: | From Adobe's reddit post[1]: > We are developing a compensation | model for Stock contributors. More info on that when we release | | If they can properly compensate the stock contributors based on | usage then I think this is a very fair approach. | | [1] | https://www.reddit.com/r/photoshop/comments/11xgft4/discussi... | theFletch wrote: | I didn't see this before I posted, but I'm glad that's the | case. In fact, it might be great for contributors that don't | have a large library or aren't ranked as well. | kitsunesoba wrote: | It's also worth considering is that there are quite a number of | fraudulent images on Adobe Stock, which means that the Firefly | dataset without a doubt contains some amount of unlicensed | material. | rchaud wrote: | LLM-based AI is tech's equivalent of mortgage-backed | securities. Lump in the bad stuff with the legitimate, hope | no one notices, and when they do, blame the inherent black- | box nature of the product. | [deleted] | villgax wrote: | Wow zero mention of any competition, these guys will get | decimated with proper local tooling for editing. | daveslash wrote: | When I look at older magazines, photos, billboards, and | advertisements -- today's world of media is so much more colorful | and vibrant than it was in the 60s & 70s. E.g. This [0] vs. this | [1]. | | With the race to the bottom for generating high-quality, | scalable, rich and colorful illustrations at almost no cost in | massive quantities, I'm envisioning the world is about to get | even more colorful and vibrant. | | [0] | https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0050/4252/files/carros_ant... | | [1] | https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MzMrYtY_Ooo/US_iZSd3noI/AAAAAAABC... | Bjorkbat wrote: | I won't argue with you that they have gotten more colorful, but | I feel like they've also lost a lot of originality as well. | Advertising in the 60s and 80s seemed more fun and witty, and | you had commercial artists like Andy Warhol giving ads a wholly | unique style, despite the limitations of the craft back then. | | Nowadays, we have Corporate Memphis | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Memphis). | | Funny really. Despite creative tooling opening up new | possibilities, I see the end result as a net loss in quality. | Cheap generally wins out over great. | | Ever the optimist, I like remind myself that in a world where | good loses out to mediocre every single time, it's easier to | stand out for being great. | rchaud wrote: | Counterpoint: BYTE Magazine artwork (1980s) compared to macabre | SVG libraries of wavy modular body parts stitched together to | show human activity. | | [0]: https://api.time.com/wp- | content/uploads/2014/04/bytecover.jp... | | [1]: | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ee/Co... | timeon wrote: | It seems to me that at one point people were fed-up with | vibrant style of 90s. Reaction was minimalism and later flat | design and Corporate Memphis. | | Now the pendulum is swinging back. | varispeed wrote: | Race to the bottom is only when it comes to wages. | | Companies are making profits not seen before. | | We had a blip in the history where everyone could participate | in the economy - from building prototype in a garage to | becoming relatively wealthy. | | Now we have wage slavery and access to market gatekeeped by VC | and banks. | | Not a great future. | furyofantares wrote: | Alright so why's your first example look so much more colorful | to me? | daveslash wrote: | You're right. I think I chose the wrong terms with | colorful/vibrant. Perhaps better words would have been | busy/detailed/intricate/textured. | | These older advertisements might have as much color, but | they're pleasing in their simplicity. Even a solid color can | be bright and beautiful, but it's not nearly as busy as a | collection of overlapping gradients. I walk back my use of | the word color in favor of the word busy. Thank you for | pointing that out. | mschuster91 wrote: | > With the race to the bottom for generating high-quality, | scalable, rich and colorful illustrations at almost no cost in | massive quantities, I'm envisioning the world is about to get | even more colorful and vibrant. | | Counterpoint: The world may get "more colorful and vibrant", | but also it will go toward uniform styles as AI will take _all_ | the commercial high-paying jobs and leave all but zero | opportunities for actual artists. | ghaff wrote: | I'm not sure it's commercial high-paying so much. If you're | going to do a rebrand, you're still going to hire an agency | that will fuss with the tiniest details. | | At least initially, the impact will probably be more on the | type of thing that even a junior designer can do in their | sleep but is a lot harder for someone who isn't a designer to | do. | ghaff wrote: | Even pretty routine graphics and illustrations for books and | presentations are pretty hard for the average person to do by | themselves and there's often no budget to have someone else, | whether internal or external to a company, to do them. Tools | have improved a lot in the past few decades but it still takes | a degree of talent to produce even routine polished work. | m3kw9 wrote: | This will supercharge artists, it won't replace them because | details matter and when you need to get it just right, you cannot | just keep rolling the dice by "prompting better" | ghaff wrote: | I actually find the artwork/design generative AI a lot more | interesting than the text. (Don't really have an opinion on the | code generation.) While it's obviously early days, something | like Stable Diffusion can, with a bit of work, generate artwork | that neither I (nor I assume the vast bulk of the population) | could. On the other hand, the text it generates might pass | muster for content farms or a starting point for a human editor | familiar with the topic but certainly isn't producing anything | I could use out of the box. | worrycue wrote: | Not everyone requires "just right" though. There are no wrong | answers in art. | | Although in this case, it's an adobe product, the only people | who will use it are artists. | bulbosaur123 wrote: | ControlNet has entered the chat. | petilon wrote: | Yes, but by "supercharging" artists, each artist will be able | to do more, which means fewer artists will be needed. | lmarcos wrote: | That artists will be able to do more not necessarily mean | that fewer of them will ne needed. I bet the opposite | actually. Companies will want to produce more (with more | resources) not the same (with less resources). | int_19h wrote: | But do the companies actually _need_ more art? | | I guess a better way to rephrase that: would it make them | more profitable to produce more art? Or to keep producing | the same amount but paying fewer people to do so? | golergka wrote: | When something becomes much cheaper than it was before, | people tend to find much more uses for it. In game | development, for example, amount of money that could be | spent on art almost always amount and quality of content; | if art becomes 10 times cheaper, a typical indie game | will have 2 times more different pieces of content with 5 | times variants of each. | ModernMech wrote: | Maybe, maybe not. | | For instance, I'd like to make a game. But I don't have | enough money to even hire an artist to help with concept art. | So I don't get to the point where I can raise money off that | art, and hire an artist to make game assets. | | Now I can generate all the concept art I want for free, and I | can raise money off of that (wallets open faster with pretty | pictures than with words). What am I going to do with it? | Hire artists! They will probably be better at using AI art | generators than I am, and they have the skills to actually | work with the generated results, unlike me. | [deleted] | Riverheart wrote: | Except now you're competing for the attention and | disposable income of everybody else doing that. How are | consumers going to tell your stuff apart from all the other | AI placeholder games that will flood the market? | ModernMech wrote: | I guess what I'm trying to say is that in the course of | developing anything, one goes through various stages of | development. Depending on the expertise of the | individual, they will be able to take a project further | before bringing on more people. If an idea is well- | trodden, then it's easy to get people on board without | much convincing. If an idea is brand new and far out | there, it will take a lot of work to convince people | before they get on board. | | For someone like me, I can do a lot, but not everything. | I've managed to get my own project to a stage where I had | felt I would have to bring on more people to advance it | much further. But I had lacked the funds to do so, and | it's hard to get people to do things for free when they | don't believe in it. It's also hard to get people to | believe in something without seeing it. My project was | very likely. | | So that's where tools like stable diffusion and chatgpt | come in. I'm now suddenly unstuck; I have a cheap tool to | do work I wasn't capable of before, so I can now take the | project further than I could have otherwise. Whereas | before I might have abandoned it, now I can take it | further and maybe get it to the point where I _can_ hire | people. The question now is: how many projects are now | going to take off? Is there funding out there for them? | Can they hire more artists than are displaced? | PaulHoule wrote: | There are interfaces where you can not just "prompt better" but | change the image with a tool like Photoshop and then feed that | back into the diffusion model. | | Also there are people who really don't care about quality. | There have always been different tiers of art: it's one thing | to have clip art for a throwaway blog post (royalty free | stock), it's another thing to base a marketing campaign around | images (rights managed stock) because you don't to have all | your competitors choose the same image. | | https://cxl.com/blog/stock-photography-vs-real-photos-cant-u... | | The bottom feeders will be very happy to accept the problems of | A.I. art and in fact you might not have the embarrassing | dogpiling problem that the above blog post describes. | deelowe wrote: | I wonder what happens over time as more and more workflows use | AI generated content as the starting point? Will all images | slowly start looking the same? | spoiler wrote: | Agreed. | | I think it will decrease iteration time during an exploration | phase for new artists or when you're not quite sure what you | want and want to explore your idea space more quickly (and | maybe even get new ideas as you iterate). | | It's similar with these coding AIs. A lot of the time it's | great for the "blank page" phase of a project where you have to | do all the "boring" stuff out of the way. Another great example | (I think it was a blog post here) where the AI recommended a | method the author didn't know about that yielded a crazy | performance boost. | | I tried to get some help from copilot on writing a shader the | other day, and it was really an amazing experience. One still | needs to have a pretty deep understanding of what needs to be | done to use these tools. | | I imagine it's similar for writers. Maybe they want some help | to reword a sentence to be more succinct, but the ideas will | still come from their heads. | | I can't predict if this will one day be so sophisticated that | you can have it do both low level and high level "thinking" | when exploring ideas, but if that day comes I don't think it | will mean an end to jobs, just that some jobs will become more | accessible, or that it won't be so much about nitty-gritty work | and more about higher level idea-level work (which to me sound | good, not bad). | | Obviously there's people who enjoy the nitty gritty (as a | developer, and amateur painter who does enjoy _the process_ ), | and I don't think that will fully go away, just become more of | a creative/artisan field maybe. Who knows, though? I may be way | off, but I don't think it's as bleak as some people fear. | ghaff wrote: | As a writer, I find ChatGPT can provide some vaguely useful | scaffolding. On the other hand, I'm not someone who finds a | blank page especially difficult to start writing on--and, in | fact, I generally want to start off with something non- | formulaic to draw a reader in. Still I can see it being | helpful in a way that automated spellchecking and grammar | checking is. | curioussavage wrote: | Im a generalist who has been trying to kick an obsessive | habit of perusing tech news and trying new/old tech for 8 | years. You made me realize that may be one reason I feel like | this tool i have just enough depth in many areas that I'm | able to scrutinize the output and it's making up for the lack | of depth all over the place. | d0100 wrote: | I hope this means that the next generation of Manga & Comics et | al will be daily serializations | | No more waiting 30 days for the next episode, hurray | illwrks wrote: | Unless of course you were to work in that area. If I did, I | would be terrified. | O__________O wrote: | Anyone able to comment on where in their opinion the measure is | for current state of copyright law when generative AI is a subset | of an image? | Spivak wrote: | It's currently unknown, but copyright law is really political | in nature and companies are hopping on using AI like crazy and | delivering real value so my expectation is that it will be | granted fair use for no philosophical reason but because US | legislators don't want to put their boot-heel on American | business. | | Because if they stifle this is will basically cement China is | the world's AI powerhouse who will give zero shits about | copyright. | | This is gonna be interesting times for copyright because this | is the first time copyrighted works are actually useful in | building tools. I think it's a very neat real-world example of | how universities are actually right to make engineers take | humanities courses because your code writing AI is actually | better for having read Vonnegut. | nstj wrote: | ``` Copyright Registration Guidance: Works Containing Material | Generated by Artificial Intelligence | | A Rule by the Copyright Office, Library of Congress on | 03/16/2023 ``` | | https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/03/16/2023-05... | O__________O wrote: | Aware of the ruling, reviewed it when it was released, though | it does not appears to cover any aspect related to for | example layout, color select, etc -- and to me targets one- | shot generative art; poorly so at that. | | As is, landscape photographers for example, control camera | angle, timing of photograph, camera type, lens type, etc -- | but they rarely create the landscape itself or for that | matter the equipment and related technologies. | | Even "found object" art is covered by copyright: | | https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Found_object | | At this point, to me, it's unclear author of that ruling even | understands technology used to create the outputs that were | the subject of that ruling. | superbatfish wrote: | There are at least two potential issues pertaining to copyright | law here, and it's not clear which one you're asking about. | That's why the responses you're getting here seem to be | answering different questions. | | 1. Are the AI systems violating the copyright protections of | the images they were trained on? If so, are users of such AI | systems also in violation of those copyrights when they create | works derived from those training images? | | Answer: That's not yet settled. | | 2. If you make an image with an AI system, is your new image | eligible for copyright protection, or is it ineligible due to | the "human authorship requirement"? | | Answer: The US Copyright Office recently wrote[1] that your | work is eligible for copyright if you altered it afterwards in | a meaningful way. Here's a quote: | | >When an AI technology determines the expressive elements of | its output, the generated material is not the product of human | authorship. As a result, that material is not protected by | copyright and must be disclaimed in a registration application. | | >In other cases, however, a work containing AI-generated | material will also contain sufficient human authorship to | support a copyright claim. For example, a human may select or | arrange AI-generated material in a sufficiently creative way | that "the resulting work as a whole constitutes an original | work of authorship." Or an artist may modify material | originally generated by AI technology to such a degree that the | modifications meet the standard for copyright protection. | | [1]: | https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/03/16/2023-05... | O__________O wrote: | As I am sure you're aware, already posted response US | Copyright's ruling related to authorship here, so will not be | repeating myself: | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35247377 | | Will say that post you linked to also states, "17 U.S.C. 101 | (definition of "compilation"). In the case of a compilation | including AI-generated material, the computer-generated | material will not be protected outside of the compilation." | -- the problem is that unlike say for example a compilation | of recipes, where the individual recipes are not protected, | but the compilation is, there is no clear delineation within | a singular work of art such delineation. As such, injecting | such delineations is counterproductive and shows no | understanding of the nature and spirit of the rule of law. | Further, while their opinion appears to be a prompt is | somehow a recipe and not a novel expression that merits | copyright, clearly photographs of the output of a recipes are | commonly photographed and given copyright protection. | | Sure others have made far more compelling arguments against | the ruling, but to me, the ruling lacks merit as is. | danShumway wrote: | > a prompt is somehow a recipe and not a novel expression | that merits copyright | | People keep bringing up photographs, I think the better | analogy is commissions. And in fact, the copyright office | points towards commissions in its explanation of its | policy. | | Under current copyright law, if I work with an artist to | produce a commission by giving that artist repeated | prompts, pointing out areas in the image I'd like changed, | etc... I don't have any claim of copyright on the artist's | final product unless they sign that copyright over to me. | My artist "prompts" are not treated as creative input for | the purpose of copyright. | | I would love to hear an argument for why prompting stable | diffusion should grant copyright over the final image, but | prompting a human being doesn't grant copyright over the | final image. Directing an artist is just as much work as | directing an AI, and in many ways will put you much closer | to the creative process and will give you more control over | the final product. You can direct an artist in much more | specific detail than you can direct stable diffusion. You | can be a lot more involved in the creative process with a | human artist. And just like with an AI, if you take that | artist's final drawing and do your own work on top of it, | you can still end up with something that's covered by | copyright. | | But despite that, we've never assumed you intrinsically get | any copyright claim over the artist's final picture that | they give you. | | So the "prompt as a recipe" analogy seems to hold up pretty | well for both AI generators and human "generators". All of | the same questions and tests seem to apply to both | scenarios, which makes me feel like the copyright office's | conclusion is pretty reasonable: prompt-generated art isn't | copyrightable, but prompts may be protected in some way, | and of course additional modifications can still be | covered. | | Yes, there's grey area, but no more grey area than already | exists in commissioning, and the creative industry has been | just fine with those grey areas in commissioning for a long | time; they haven't been that big of a deal. | ClumsyPilot wrote: | > a prompt is somehow a recipe and not a novel expression | that merits copyright | | Is it not? Does typing in 'cat' in SD, as millions of | people will, count as novel expression? | ghaff wrote: | Basically, no one knows. But the IP lawyers I know are | generally of the opinion that, manufactured possible violations | notwithstanding, it's probably OK for the most part. | linuxftw wrote: | What I love about this AI generative art is it will finally put | the right price on computer generated art: $0. | | It will be interesting to watch the entire Hollywood and | associated creative industries lose control to AI. Entire movies | will be created in small basements. Same with AAA video games. | Vespasian wrote: | I hope we will see much bigger universes with intricate and | detailed lore where human steers parts of storylines and | visuals to make them interesting and fit together but AI fills | in the blanks. | | Gamedev example: If NPCs lines can be generated quickly, maybe | it's possible to develop open world games that change their | character throughout the game. | | Way to often addons and expansions are carefully cordoned off | from the main game because no one wants to redo all that work. | linuxftw wrote: | Will any of these meaningfully enhance gameplay? Sure, there | could be more features, but what is the marginal utility? I | think people assume more immersive, more expansive is better | for games, but I'm not sure this is the case. | Vespasian wrote: | Good point. | | I was thinking of enhancing existing capabilities to | develop open world games of smaller teams or to buff out a | main storyline with "world chatter". | | This would act as a multiplier for writers to better use | the available budget/time. Sure it may not write a | brilliant and engaging story (without human editing) but | given the "lore" of a village and it's | geographical/political position in the world I can | definitely see it being useful to "set the tone" of | otherwise generic background NPCs. | | PS: Maybe this is me trying to find use cases for current | LLMs (with their known capabilities and weaknesses) that | don't involve dismissing them out of hand or "the | singularity". | Nevermark wrote: | Dungeons & Dragons demonstrated that intelligent open world | is so attractive people will crank through it with all the | friction of paper character sheets, rule books, | encyclopedias of creature stats, dice, dungeon masters prep | and problem solving... | | I would love to collect a group of human and NPC players | and attempt a heist from an actually intelligent dragon in | an environment where no action was guardrailed | | Encounter creatures and cultures with no documentation but | what you learn my interacting with them | | And with beautiful scenery to boot | Pxtl wrote: | I personally find it infuriating that the jobs we're closest to | automating right now are the ones that we dreamed of doing as | youths. | | Who dreamed of cleaning bathrooms or flipping burgers? Too bad, | that's still done by manual humans. | | But who dreamed of being an artist or a writer? Great, we've | figured out how to replace you with a generative algorithm! | usrusr wrote: | Not just dreamed of doing as youths, they are also exactly | the jobs that AI positivists promised we would be doing | instead when robots took away all the boring "make rent" | crap. | bufferoverflow wrote: | And digital art in general. If you can't tell the difference | between human made and AI made art, they will cost the same. | Near $0. | TylerE wrote: | Creative people are paid to be creative, not enter keyboard | shortcuts all day. It's the idea and vision that are the real | differentiator. | usrusr wrote: | Kids at street corners have idea and vision, no shortage in | that. What matters is putting together idea and vision with | execution. And for anything that is beyond basement scope, | execution further subdivides into craft and access. Access to | the means, and that is true for Hollywood as much as it is | true for the smallest-time painter who might not be good at | making friends with gallerists. The outliers are those that | learn the craft, network into a position of access and still | retain _some_ trace of idea and vision through all of that. | xsmasher wrote: | Kids at street corners have idea and vision, but may lack | TASTE - the ability to discern the good from the bad. If | the button-pushers have great AI but lack taste they will | still produce a terrible end product. | TylerE wrote: | Kids on corners have ideas. Very few of them are GOOD | ideas. Anyone can say 'Make a movie with lots of aliens and | lasers'. It still takes Ridley Scott to make _Alien_. | usrusr wrote: | Yet at the same time that "Pinback chased by the beach | ball monster" scene that eventually evolved into _Alien_ | is hilariously deep in "kids on street corner ideas" | territory | easyThrowaway wrote: | They won't. They own the hardware, the distribution channels | and the datacenters. | | For comparison, despite making professional music is even | easier (a copy of Ableton Live Lite and a few hours of studio | recording for the vocals makes for less than 300$) every single | music chart is still dominated by music made by corporations | (Universal Sony / Time Warner, mainly). | | On the other hand, music is less valuable than ever. From | 20$/unit (the price of a CD) to 0.0004c for stream. Or you get | lucky and somehow someone buys your music during bandcamp | friday. | | Just a subset of Musicians are still around because they're | famous enough to get an audience for their tours and/or dj | sets. Visual artists have nothing comparable to sustain | themselves. | irrational wrote: | When is Getty Images going to release their own AI Art Generator? | user3939382 wrote: | Adobe has lost any good sentiment I had for them with their | forced subscriptions and dark patterns. I use their products | begrudgingly, it's a sunk cost fallacy from decades of muscle | memory. | | My reaction to seeing any announcement from them is, yeah | whatever Adobe. | aceazzameen wrote: | Agreed. Adobe has lost my complete trust and I've learned to | avoid their tools. I honestly don't know what they can do to | win me back. They're a damaged brand. | roflyear wrote: | Agreed. Greedy company, no longer associated with cool | creators. I hope people start to move away from their products. | pcurve wrote: | Once you get stranglehold of the market place, you can pretty | much do whatever you want. Adobe... Microsoft... Apple... | Google... all pulling the same lever. | roflyear wrote: | At least with all of those (except Adobe!!) you can cancel | your subscription using the same interface you bought the | subscription on! | danShumway wrote: | > Once Firefly is out of its beta stage, creators will have the | option to use content generated in Firefly commercially. | | The reason this sentence exists is because Adobe wants to create | the impression among readers that it owns the output and that | it's _Adobe 's_ choice how creators use those images. But under | current copyright interpretation, Adobe doesn't own those images. | So it's nice that it's giving permission, but that's not Adobe's | permission to give -- so thanks but also heck off Adobe, nobody | needed to ask you for permission in the first place. You can use | any AI image commercially because AI images are not under | copyright. | | Of course, Adobe would _love_ to have a world where most art is | generated algorithmically and Adobe is in charge of deciding how | that art gets used and what gets generated because it controls | the tool. So it 's in Adobe's best interest to pretend that it's | granting artists a permissive right, rather than recognizing that | it doesn't have any real legal argument to make that artwork | generated through Firefly is owned by Adobe (or by anyone for | that matter). | | And that's good! It's not anti-AI to say that, because what you | have to realize is that what companies want from AI image | generation is a model where every single artist goes through them | in order to build or generate anything. They want a model where | creative tools are a _service_ , for the same reason why Adobe | wants its tools to all be subscription based. No SaaS company is | getting into generative AI with the goal of _increasing_ | accessibility of art. They are (Adobe especially) interested in | closing down that accessibility. They are all drooling at the | opportunity to turn your workflow into a SaaS business that can | only be run on extremely expensive hardware clusters. | | So yes, the denial of copyright for AI-generated images does make | it trickier to monetize those images, but denying that copyright | has the much more important effect of making harder for these | companies to lock out competitors and build services where they | control/monopolize an entire creative market. You can still use | AI during a creative process and end up with a thing that can be | copyrighted. But Adobe can't release a tool and later on start to | argue that nobody else can train competing generators using that | tool, or that the tool can only be used in a particular way, or | that everything the tool can generate is owned by Adobe. That | matters. | | It means that competitors can use Adobe Firefly output to train | their own models (including locally run models like stable | diffusion). It means that there's a limiting factor in place that | keeps Adobe from making lazy grabs to assert ownership over large | numbers of images. It means that you can pull images generated by | Firefly into other pipelines without asking Adobe permission. | | You can see the same thing playing out with ChatGPT. OpenAI's TOS | states that you're not allowed to use OpenAI to help build | something that competes with OpenAI. That's going largely | unquestioned, but my strong suspicion is that it's only a TOS | violation to break that rule, because again, OpenAI does not own | the copyright on anything that GPT generates. So if you're not | signing that EULA, it's not clear to me that OpenAI has any legal | right at all to restrict you from using output that you find | online as training data. As far as I can tell, current copyright | consensus in the US is that the text that comes out of ChatGPT is | public domain. But that's not what OpenAI wants, because if | anyone can build anything using ChatGPT's output, then how is | OpenAI going to build a moat around their service to block | competitors? How are they going to eventually turn profitable by | closing off access and raising prices once people start to rely | on their service? So just like Adobe, they stick the language in | and hope nobody calls them out on it. | aschearer wrote: | While this is very exciting it's worth pointing out most of the | page falls under "WHAT WE'RE EXPLORING." That is to say, these | are from the marketing department and it's impossible to know | whether they are strictly aspirational or just around the corner. | | From the page: | | > Looking forward, Firefly has the potential to do much, much | more. Explore the possibilities below ... We plan to build ... | We're exploring the potential of ... the plan is to do this and | more ... in the future, we hope to enable. | | All that being said, shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg! | sebzim4500 wrote: | They do a highly rehearsed live demo here: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3z9jYtPx-4 | | It's mainly just text to image, but the results are extremely | impressive IMO. Probably best in class for a lot of usecases. | mesh wrote: | Yeah, we are being a little more open, a little earlier, in | part because this space is so new, and we really want feedback | / direction from the community. | | Currently in the beta, there is text to image, and text | effects, and will have vector recoloring in the next couple of | weeks. | aschearer wrote: | Keep up the good work. I raise my point solely because people | are comparing these trailers against Stable Diffusion and the | like, when in reality the examples are artists renditions. | There's no point in comparing. | | I hope someday y'all get to the point where we can change a | video's season, time of day, etc. and have things work | seamlessly. That would be quite incredible! | RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: | One thing that disturbs me is the push to censor the AI output. | | Photoshop is used to produce a ton of porn, but Adobe doesn't try | to stop that. | | In terms of "safety", models Photoshopped to impossible standards | have helped create impossible beauty standards causing depression | and even life threatening eating disorders in teenage girls. | | Yet, Adobe and all the others will carefully censor the output of | these generative models. | zirgs wrote: | Photoshop runs on the user's machine. This AI is running on | Adobe's servers - that's the difference. | postsantum wrote: | That would be the job of AI ethicists to ensure models | generated to be all across the BMI spectrum | bestcoder69 wrote: | Any relation to GigaGAN? Page doesn't seem to mention what kind | of NNs are used. | mk_stjames wrote: | I found the little sketch-to-vector-variations part interesting | and surprising- this is something that is solidly not done via a | diffusion model unlike everything else shown. Although I note it | says "We plan to build this into Firefly" implying that... this | isn't something already finished. | Bjorkbat wrote: | I'm intrigued as well, but especially with regards to how it | would perform in the real world given that I've also observed | that diffusion models aren't great with vectors. | | I suspect the example they used might have been cherry-picked | alexwebb2 wrote: | I imagine this would use "in the style of a line drawing" | prompts under the hood to produce line-esque raster images | suitable for vectorization, with the resulting vectorized | images being what's shown to the user. | mk_stjames wrote: | That was also my first instinct, but is vectorization from a | line sketch really that smooth and reliable now, though? It | has been some time since I've used modern tools, but last I | tried any raster-to-vector on line drawings that weren't | super basic, the results left a lot to be desired. Jittery, | under- or over-fit, etc. | oidar wrote: | The high compute costs for training and legacy software foothold | seems that it may encourage rent seeking in the big tech | companies. I hope the huge costs and compute demands won't only | enrich the big tech companies that can afford to run the models | on heavy duty hardware. If it does, it will potentially lead to | the rich companies, individuals, and persons greatly outpacing | their peers. | brucethemoose2 wrote: | These models _can_ be run locally, but I see far too many | businesses and bloggers resign themselves to renting OpenAI 's | cloud instead of tinkering with LLaMA/Alpaca, the community | Stable Diffusion finetunes and such. | | Adobe does have a legal edge here, which is interesting and | perhaps actually worth a subscription if needed. | int_19h wrote: | The problem is that GPT-3.5 is so cheap, and the results that | you get out of it are still quite a bit better than | LLaMA/Alpaca. There just doesn't seem to be any solid | economic reason to run it locally except to keep inputs | and/or outputs private. | brucethemoose2 wrote: | That is not sustainable though. OpenAI is in the "burning | money to gain market share" phase. | LegitShady wrote: | I wonder about how companies are approaching letting their | customers understand what is and isn't copyrightable with the | results of these ai models. | | The us copyright office has made it clear that elements of | designs that lack human authorship cannot be copyrighted. A | prompt is not enough - the same way if you provided a prompt to | an artist while commissioning a work does not grant you copyright | to that work. The results (including specific elements) of these | ai models cannot be copyrighted which has extreme implications to | commerical art in general. If you have your ai models come up | with a character you cannot claim copyright of that character. If | your ai models comes up with a composition you cannot claim | copyright on that composition. | | If you use the ai to generate an idea and then have a human | develop the idea, the elements of the design that the ai came up | with cannot be copyrighted because they lack human authorship. | | Commercial operations that care about ip beware. | stravant wrote: | I don't see how this will possibly be relevant. | | AI generated content is about to sprint so far ahead of the | existing legal framework that something will just have to give. | LegitShady wrote: | on the opposite - existing legal frameworks protect human | works, and altering them to allow corporations to own any | idea they can provide a prompt for is directly harmful to | society and the future of intellectual property in every | country. | | using ml is already powerful and fast. protecting ideas from | mass corporate ownership so that your grandchildren will be | allowed to think freely is more important than chat gpt or | stable diffusion or whatever algorithm replaces them next | week. | s1k3s wrote: | Wow, what a waste of time for Adobe to implement something like | this. Who's even going to use this since all the artists said AI | is bad and everyone who uses it should be put in prison? | | Sorry, couldn't resist. | codetrotter wrote: | Imagine paying for Adobe products. | | I did that once. Never again. What a shit company. Cancelling the | subscription was a total drag. Fuck you Adobe, I hope you go | bankrupt sooner rather than later. | acomjean wrote: | Lamentably adding their training set will make Adobe's value | proposition much higher. | | Open source creative alternatives have a even harder time | (Blender, inkscape, krita, Gnu Image Manipulation Program)... | | Since Adobe lack of Linux support holds it back significantly | with creatives, this makes opens source more of a challenge. | CyanBird wrote: | What they did to allegorithmic, the substance suite and the on | boarding process to even learn the system is a travesty | | Substance Designer used to have a platform called substance | share where anyone could share and open source knowledge of | complex parametric textures for free to anyone with a substance | account, obviously the first draft for how Adobe would get the | money back from their purchase is to monetize the entire | learning processes by shutting down that website and adding pay | walls to near every single interaction to even learn the | software, it is just so horribly shortsighted and these ideas | can only be approved and implemented by sheer rentiers managers | nvr219 wrote: | https://sniep.net/adobe.png | bitL wrote: | Generative AI with ClipSeg/ControlNet is the main way to make | Adobe products obsolete. No wonder they are pushing it into | production ASAP but their investments to advanced tools they had | edge over competition like e.g. intelligent background filling | can be easily replicated/overcome now. We might see a quick | commoditization of Adobe image processing tools. | sebzim4500 wrote: | Yeah but Adobe will presumably outspend | stability.ai/midjourney/the stable diffusion community 10 to 1, | plus they have access to better datasets. I think if they play | this right this could end up building them a moat rather than | filling it in. | saberience wrote: | Yes but Adobe tools are both expensive and their subscription | system and website are full of horrible dark patterns. | There's a reason Figma users were upset and pissed to hear | Adobe was buying them. Adobe used to be a loved company, but | this was many many years ago at this point. | open-paren wrote: | Adobe employee, not in Creative Cloud. | | We got access to this in beta a week ago and it was an instant | hit across the whole company. | | This is just the tip of the iceberg and there is a lot of really | cool, in-house products around generative AI. The team is going | to great lengths to make this ethical and fair (try and generate | a photo of a copyrighted character like Hello Kitty or Darth | Vader). I'm excited to see the final product of all the internal | work that has been going on for so long. | ftxbro wrote: | > The team is going to great lengths to make this ethical and | fair (try and generate a photo of a copyrighted character like | Hello Kitty or Darth Vader). | | imagine doing something as unethical as drawing hello kitty | worrycue wrote: | What if you need to generate a picture of Hello Kitty for an | article someone is writing about the art style of Hello Kitty | or something? I.E. Fair Use cases. | skybrian wrote: | Copy it? Use a different image generator? | | This is just one tool. It doesn't need to be fully general. | airstrike wrote: | _> The team is going to great lengths to make this ethical and | fair (try and generate a photo of a copyrighted character like | Hello Kitty or Darth Vader)_ | | are you saying it won't work? if that's the case, that seems | really silly. actually, it goes against everything I believe in | (as well as my understanding of even the kindest meaning of the | word "hacker"). it drives me up the wall, it makes my blood | boil | | who is going to stop me from drawing hello kitty myself? | | it's not the tool's job to regulate my creativity. the law | exists to regulate the use of my art, not the act of creating | the art. I can draw hello kitty all I want and leave it in my | drawer, if it floats my boat | | limiting the tool just makes me never want to use it. you're | like Sony fighting digital music in the 2000s. the future is | right in front of you but you just can't see it. | [d8][d78][d78][d7] | [d678])g7[d378][d8][d678][d3678]0[d2368][d7] | [d68][d1234567]cccg77633[d2345678]f | [d8][d78][d14578][d1234678][d17] [d12345678] | [d4568][d1237] [d4568][d12347] | [d123468][d345678]fcd[d23568]tg][d2378] | [d4568][d123678]2 ][d23678][d3678][d367][d1234568][d7] | [d8][d345678][d1235678] [d1345678] [d345678]b | cd[d12348][d147]a[d678][d234567][d12378] | [d568][d12347] dfc [d124568][d7] | [d78][d678][d345678][d123678][d3678] [d78][d7] | [d78][d7] "6[d124568][d123457]h3 | @[d1235678][d78][d7] ^=l [d8][d78][d78] =q | 4[d2345678]8[d368] fd[d123678][d78][d7] ^8#b | [d368][d345678][d123478] | [d8]0j][d12368][d378][d78] [d78][d3678]tcch | @cgg777[d235678][d3678][d35678][d23567]77qgc | emptybits wrote: | > "it's not the tool's job to regulate my creativity. the law | exists to regulate the use of my art, not the act of creating | the art. I can draw hello kitty all I want and leave it in my | drawer, if it floats my boat" | | This is very well said. Thank you! | balls187 wrote: | This runs into the core problem with technology--we answer | "What can we do" before "Should we do it" and "What are the | impacts" | | Let's say you take your hello kitty dot art, and make a | poster promoting a commercial event. You then take it to | FedEx Kinkos and use a self-service copy machine to make 1000 | copies. You could reasonable argue that you are violation of | copyright infringement, and the photocopier / FedEx kinkos | isn't. | | Now instead, you have AI generate a poster, and it generates | a very similar image to hello-kitty. It's arguably so similar | than a reasonable person would say it's a copy. You take that | poster and again make 1000 copies. Is there copyright | infringement? If so, who if anyone, is liable for damages? | airstrike wrote: | Whoever put the poster up for display and reaped some | reward out of it is liable for damages. Everyone else is | just doing their job in the supply chain. We want supply | chains to work for the good of the economy, which is a | proxy for increasing availability and reducing prices of | "goods and services" to the average person. | balls187 wrote: | Imagine a paying Adobe CC customer. | | They use Firefly to generate a poster, and unbeknownst to | them, the image it generated is a reasonable facsimile of | a copyrighted/trademark character. | | The person has inadvertently committed copyright | infringement. | | So does Firefly need to come with a warning? | | The safer solution, to the chagrin of another commenter, | is for Adobe to neuter the tool by only training on data | in which Adobe has express permission to use. | whatarethembits wrote: | A simple warning that what's been generated looks similar | to something that's copyrighted is not a bad idea. Then | it's up to the AI user to do their due diligence if they | intend to use the resulting work for commercial purpose. | Neutering the tool from the get go is a step too far. | codeyperson wrote: | People accidentally recreate other companies logos in | Adobe Illustrator all the time. | airstrike wrote: | Surely with all our contemporary AI prowess we can train | a model that identifies "reasonable facsimiles of | copyrighted/trademark characters" after generating them | and alert the user that it could be argued as such. | Still, let the user decide. | | We _do not_ need creative technology to regulate | observance of copyright law. | | (By the way I think the chagrined other commenter was | yours truly ;-)) | freedomben wrote: | GP works for Adobe, and Adobe's bread and butter are the | professional creators who would love a world where there is | hardware DRM on your eyes and you can't even _see_ their | creations or a likeness of them without paying a royalty (and | one to "rent" the memories of the visualization, not to | "own" the memories like we do now). While I largely agree | with you, the GP post is exactly what I would expect from an | Adobe person. | vdfs wrote: | I forgot for a second that this Adobe, the top stories on | HN about Adobe are almost all negative | unreal37 wrote: | There will be open source tools replicating this within | months. You can build your own model based on billions of | images on the web or use someone else's or contribute to one. | danShumway wrote: | To expand on this, what we're seeing with LLaMa is that you | can fine-tune your model _using other models_. | | It's not clear that the quality will be exactly the same | (in fact it will very likely be worse), but working | generators are essentially ways to quickly generate | training data. And I can't think of a legal argument for | why generated output from a model would be _less_ legal to | use as training data than an unlicensed photo off of | DeviantArt. | | Nobody has really called out OpenAI on this, but OpenAI has | a clause in it's TOS that you won't use output to build a | competing model. But that's... just in it's TOS. If you | don't have an OpenAI account, it's not immediately clear to | me (IANAL) why you can't use any of the leaked training | sets that other people have generated with ChatGPT to help | align a commercial model. | | Certainly if someone makes the argument that generators | like Copilot/Midjourney aren't violating copyright by | learning from their sources, it's very hard to make the | argument that Midjourney/Copilot output is somehow | different than that and their output can't be used to help | generate training datasets. | HeavyFeather wrote: | I hate limitations as much as the next person, but these | tools are viewed as generators _by company xyz._ You don't | want Disney to sue Adobe because the tool can circumvent IP | and abuse it. | | "Draw a Disney logo but for adults" | | That image now lives on Adobe.com | airstrike wrote: | What if I draw the logo with a regular 2B pencil? | | I want to see Disney sue Faber-Castell for making great | pencils I used for my deviant art | | Also IANAL but even then there's probably fair use rights | in parodying their logo | dragonwriter wrote: | > You don't want Disney to sue Adobe | | No, _you_ don't want Disney to sue Adobe. | dragonwriter wrote: | So, the above was somewhat flip and terse, but the kind | of lawsuit being avoided is also the kind of thing that | provides clarity on legal issues and removes spaces of | doubt. This can be broadly beneficial. | | Giants battling it out can result in a clearer | environment for everyone else that couldn't afford legal | risk in an environment of doubt. | roflyear wrote: | I know why, but why do you guys make your subscription | management such an awful experience for users? I used to like | Adobe, now I hate the company and will go as far as suffering | massive inconvenience to avoid Adobe products. | | Last time I canceled a subscription (can't do it through your | website, only by talking to support) when I finally got in | touch with someone it took several hours to actually convince | them to cancel. | Filligree wrote: | One of the great aspects of open-source stable diffusion | (civitai.com et al.) is there's a model for every purpose. | | Does your inpainting model work with _every_ style? Or is it | going to have trouble matching the content for e.g. specific | fanart? | jdc0589 wrote: | is civitai.com literally just 90% japanese porn? | mesh wrote: | It would have trouble matching on trademarked styles, or | individual artists / creators styles. | | One of the primary goals for Firefly is to provide a model | that can generate output that respects creators and is safe | for commercial use. | | (I work for Adobe) | Filligree wrote: | So that means it would have trouble matching my style, too. | mesh wrote: | Yes. Although we are working on allowing you to train on | your own content. | saberience wrote: | Sounds like a good way of making it useless or otherwise | 100X less useful than Stable Diffusion. | klabb3 wrote: | I understand the intent but the result will clearly sway in | the direction of protecting big brands, artists, and | individual styles. There's simply no way that it couldn't. | At some point in the pipeline, there's a blocklist for | copyrighted works of a finite size that's decided by | employees, no? | krsdcbl wrote: | I don't really understand the negative comments on this. | Though a hacker by heart, I'm a designer first and foremost | | And I'm extremely eager to get my hands on AI tools that | let me extend my capacities based on _my own_ styles & | context, and that is focused enough on this scope to evade | future legal obstacles when used in production | | Very excited to try this tool! | iddan wrote: | Finally a big player is talking about image to vector using | generative AI. This will make the lives of graphic designers so | much better. No reason that humans will continue to trace images | in this day and age | nuc1e0n wrote: | Man, Adobe knows what they're doing. This is the right response | to image generative AI, to integrate it into workflows. | [deleted] | turnsout wrote: | How long do we think this "big company gates access to an | impressive AI model" moment will last? | | I wonder if generative models will become such a commodity that | they cease to be a revenue driver or differentiator. | layer8 wrote: | There will be moats around training data (Adobe probably has | huge amounts of high-quality training data that isn't available | to the public), and around fine-tuning for specific fields. The | more specialized the application, the less of a commodity it | will be. | | And it remains to be seen how long it will take until there is | an open-source model on the level of GPT-4. It may be harder | than many expect, and the commercial offerings may be on yet | another level by then. | Someone1234 wrote: | Exactly, and the moats largely boil down to: "Why is there no | Open Source replacing for Google Search?" | | Big AI's advantage is still being made. Every time a user | hits "Feedback" they're fine-tuning this proprietary model. | You can absolutely make an Open Source model with enough | compute, but if it is only e.g. "95%" good relative to the | paid one at "97%" or "98%" are you going to prioritize it? | How many of you use Google because it is 2% better than Bing | for example? | turnsout wrote: | If it's 95% as good and it can be rolled into every product | at basically zero cost, then yeah, the paid version will | die. | | There are plenty of proprietary technologies that are | better than say Postgres, or JPEG, or JSON. And some | businesses need that marginal edge. But if the open source | option is free, standardized, has great tooling, and is 95% | as good, that's a real problem for OpenAI and their peers. | epups wrote: | It doesn't seem to do be able to do anything that Stable | Diffusion cannot do, and I bet they put a ton more restrictions | too. Other than OpenAI, most of these closed-source AI | developments are quite underwhelming. | mesh wrote: | Not specifically in comparison to Stable Diffusion, but in | general our approach is to provide a model that is really easy | to use, can be used commercially, and has deep integration with | our our creative tools. | | On this last point, we have really only shared about the model | and "playground" which is a web based interface to play around | with Firefly. We are working on initial integrations in the | tools, and will have more info on that in the coming weeks / | months (particularly for Adobe Express and Photoshop). | | While you can do a LOT with plugins in tools like Photoshop | (which may be enough for some users), we can do much deeper | integration into the tool, and integrate it in ways not | otherwise possible. | | (I work for Adobe) | EZ-Cheeze wrote: | Did you see how it accurately put the snow on the surfaces | where it would accumulate? I don't know how to do that with SD, | but I'll try it later with ControlNet. | robg wrote: | Is this all Adobe developed or they are relying on partners? | rcarmo wrote: | Obviously requires an Adobe account, which hints at it being | folded into their subscription pricing. I wonder if this is a | customer retention move given the number of third-party plugins | to use Dall-E, SD, Midjourney, etc. with Photoshop. | | (I also wonder who is powering this or if it's an in-house | solution -- that should be telling...) | | Edit: Why, they've trained this on Adobe stock images. OK, this | may be very interesting for publications worried about copyright. | olejorgenb wrote: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35247630 points to | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35089661 from Adobe | Research. Maybe it's based on that? | joelfried wrote: | Their blog about their methodology[1] implies to me it's an in- | house solution. They also talk at length about maintaining | provenance, ethics, and transparency. I found it a much more | informative read than the product announcement. | | [1] https://blog.adobe.com/en/publish/2023/03/21/responsible- | inn... | sourcecodeplz wrote: | Actually, when signing up for the waitlist, they don't ask for | your Adobe account. | biccboii wrote: | it's only a matter of time i'm sure. I don't think you can | use any adobe product today without Adobe Creative Cloud(tm) | ghaff wrote: | There are a variety of consumer products (and Adobe Reader) | that are still non-subscription. There also subsets of | Creative Cloud. But, yes, this will presumably be part of | their subscriptions at some point. | KineticLensman wrote: | > I don't think you can use any adobe product today without | Adobe Creative Cloud | | The Elements versions of Photoshop and Premiere are paid | for with a one-off purchase and are not part of a cloud | subscription. | | I use Creative Cloud photoshop but a while ago purchased a | separate Premiere Elements license for video editing - this | was cheaper than extending my CC subscription to include | Premiere Pro. But I switched to (the awesome) Davinci | Resolve for video editing when my copy of Premiere elements | wasn't able to open video clips from just-released cameras | and phones. | UberFly wrote: | Adobe will need to allow the importing of custom models, or else | their product will be too limited. That then allows the | "unofficial" use of copyrighted material for image generation. | They're definitely starting from a place of advantage leveraging | their already vast open-license stock portfolios. | 29athrowaway wrote: | If you use oh-my-zsh, enable the zsh plugin (after installing | zsh). | whywhywhywhy wrote: | It's a trap. They already have you locked in for photo and video | work, AI is the chance to escape them. | inductive_magic wrote: | Photopea considered, is PS still as prevalent? | [deleted] | ben174 wrote: | Closed beta. Requesting access requires filling out a four page | form. Product page is a bunch of hand-selected images. | | Nothing to see here. | mesh wrote: | You can see it in action here: | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkTXyY9cnEs | | and there is a live stream later today here: | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3z9jYtPx-4 | vecinu wrote: | Did you bother to browse the entire page? There are videos | showing live editing and changing a backdrop. This is a teaser | of a live product that is actually working remarkably well. | germinalphrase wrote: | Can anyone speak to company culture/QoL of working at Adobe? | dharmab wrote: | I worked for 5 years at Adobe on an infrastructure team. My | team and management was amazing and it was a genuinely good | workplace. But it is a very large company and many of the usual | tradeoffs if large companies still apply (eg small cog, big | inscrutable machine). People's experiences varied across teams | and I seemed to be on one of the better ones at the company. | endisneigh wrote: | Looks pretty polished honestly. I wonder who they're partnering | with for the GPUs. Does Adobe have their own data centers? | dharmab wrote: | Yes, Adobe has their own datacenters as well as very large | infrastructure on both AWS and Azure. | | Source: I was on Adobe's container infrastructure team | 2017-2021, most of that time as a lead. | lancesells wrote: | Adobe is an ad network, stock house, analytics, etc. They | probably have the resources to do this. | motoxpro wrote: | Interesting that the large company AI products (this, Microsoft | copilot, etc) are so much more compelling than any of the | startups I've seen. | | Makes me think that we haven't seen what true innovation looks | like in this space. Right now, AI is a feature, not a product. | | Edit: Not talking about the models themselves (stability, mid | journey, GPT-x), talking about what is built on those models. | ghaff wrote: | In Adobe's case, it absolutely makes sense it would be a | feature of Photoshop, Illustrator, and Premiere. They've been | adding various "smart" masking features and the like over time | already. | akira2501 wrote: | > Interesting that the large company AI products (this, | Microsoft copilot, etc) are so much more compelling than any of | the startups I've seen. | | This is an indicative signal. It's amazing how easily it is | ignored. | | > Makes me think that we haven't seen what true innovation | looks like in this space. | | It's interesting that a bunch of product add-ons could be | considered "innovation" in the first place. | MrScruff wrote: | Isn't almost everything on this page concept stuff though? | Seems like the only thing they're shipping is text to image and | the results they show look pretty underwhelming. | | Seems like all these big companies are pushing amazing looking | concept videos more than anything. | time_to_smile wrote: | > AI is a feature, not a product | | Part of the reason for this is that very often the best | applications of AI are really invisible to the user, making | everything a little bit better, quietly behind the scenes. | | The same is true for software in general. The best software | products automate loads of stuff behind the scenes so from the | user perspective they just click a button and the thing they | want to happen, happens. | | Perhaps the most successful and important AI product is a great | example of this: the spam filter. I bet most younger email | users don't even realize how much value this old AI tool | provides them unseen. | | But the trouble is making effective AI products is not "sexy" | right now, and if your team ships one it won't get any credit | in a big company. I've had my PM instantly shoot down plenty of | interesting applications of AI that wouldn't be very visible to | the customer or larger product-org. | Dalewyn wrote: | I don't fundamentally disagree, but if spam filters are "AI" | then my bloody toaster is also artificially intelligent. | time_to_smile wrote: | You must have a smarter toaster than I do. My toaster is a | completely deterministic mechanism that knows nothing about | my past toasting experience, nor makes any inference about | future toast. | | A spam filter: | | - Is provided historic information about the problem | | - Learns from this information to construct a basic model | of language | | - Is then provided unseen information | | - Then makes a probabilistic decision based on a degree of | uncertainty. | | The exact model behind the spam filtering can be extremely | simple (naive Bayes) but could easily (and probably will | without you even realizing it) expand to include things | like GPT. | | A spam filter is making decisions under uncertainty with | new information based on patterns it learned from previous | information. If this doesn't fit your definition of "AI" | then I think if you understood what was happening under the | hood I don't think you would consider GPT to be AI either. | | If you toaster does learn your toast preference over time | from your toasting behavior (unlike mine) then I would | consider that AI as well. | tensor wrote: | Microsoft is just licensing their technology from OpenAI, which | is still a small company, if not still a startup. | motoxpro wrote: | ChatGPT is not nearly as good of a product as what was demoed | by Microsoft if you want to make that comparison. | | Not talking about LLMs/underlying model. I don't think adobe | makes their own either. Talking about the interface to it. | l33tman wrote: | I would consider both Stable Diffusion and MidJourney to be | startups and both are better by far than the established | companies like OpenAI, and there are dozens of LLMs soon | catching up with GPT3/4. As you say, it will be a very | interesting next 6-12 months.. | saiya-jin wrote: | I played around (till free account expired) with MidJourney | and what one can produce out of blue is mind-boggling. Indie | devs can with a bit of effort generate much of their art via | this for peanuts (the only problem may be consistency from | what I've seen, basically every image is like from another | artist, even in same batch) | GaggiX wrote: | The biggest problem is that you can't do much if not | conditioning the generation with your prompt and maybe | image embeddings, if you are an indie dev you would | probably find much more useful Stable Diffusion. | andybak wrote: | Dall-E is still ahead of the competition for some tasks. | Midjourney has a very polished look but it lacks the depth of | understanding that Dall-E can manage. I regularly hit prompts | that I need to jump into Dall-E for. | sebzim4500 wrote: | For playing around, sure. For serious work though you | probably need control-net in some way, otherwise you end up | with a bunch of images which are great on their own but | make no sense together. | Kye wrote: | Stable Diffusion is a thing you can run on your computer for | free and train models for. It's from a research university. | Is this one of those more expansive definitions of startup? | sebzim4500 wrote: | Presumably he means stability.ai is a startup. | motoxpro wrote: | I wouldnt consider stable diffusion, mid journey and Open AI | products. Little bit too low level, they seem to be more | platforms that the products are built on. Not to say they | aren't amazing, just that the productized versions (one level | up) are being executed really well by the big companies. | aleksandrm wrote: | A little bit too late to the market for a company of their size. | Sirikon wrote: | Yeah, Adobe, release a competitor of your own clients, they'll | love it. | sebzim4500 wrote: | They'll have to buy it (or something like it), they won't have | much of a choice. Artists that use this kind of tool will be so | much more productive than ones that don't, that they simply | won't be able to find employment otherwise. | msoad wrote: | Based on my experience with the podcast product they released | recently I am excited to see what this would look like. I think | they can execute on UI for working with generative AI much better | than others. | sourcecodeplz wrote: | Wow is all I can say. | O__________O wrote: | Possible this is not significant, appears that within the feature | set is a text-to-vector image generator that produces editable | vectors art. There's no direct link I was able to find, but | feature is listed here: | | https://firefly.adobe.com/ | | Is anyone aware of any similar open source or services that | handle text-to-vector generative AI? | olejorgenb wrote: | Very short demo of the feature(?): | https://youtu.be/c3z9jYtPx-4?t=180 | themodelplumber wrote: | > services that handle text-to-vector generative AI | | I think I used one...maybe Kittl or Illustroke. Not FOSS | though. In the FOSS world there are some really brilliant tools | like potrace at the very least. That one is still built into | Inkscape, I believe. | elietoubi wrote: | If anyone wants to do the same thing on Figma, I built a plugin | just for that. https://www.magicbrushai.com | wappieslurkz wrote: | That's awesome! Thanks. | DizzyDoo wrote: | How is this 'Firefly Model' trained and sourced? Will it be on | the contents of the stock.adobe.com library? | | Clicking through the available pages it seems like a lot of | 'coming soon' talk, so there's not really any detail about any of | the underlying process. | m_ke wrote: | I'm sure it's all of their content plus half of the web. The | proprietary data they get from Behance, Lightroom, Photoshop | and Illustrator (and soon figma) has to be a great advantage | for them though. | mesh wrote: | Does not include Behance data or user data. | | https://helpx.adobe.com/manage-account/using/machine- | learnin... | | "The insights obtained through content analysis will not be | used to re-create your content or lead to identifying any | personal information." | olejorgenb wrote: | For what kind of model it is, another poster pointed to | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35089661 (a GAN) as a | possibility. | rcarmo wrote: | all you've asked is in the FAQ, right at the top. | timdiggerm wrote: | > The current Firefly generative AI model is trained on a | dataset of Adobe Stock, along with openly licensed work and | public domain content where copyright has expired. | | https://www.adobe.com/sensei/generative-ai/firefly.html#faqs | jonplackett wrote: | Anyone know what underlying tech this is using? | dopeboy wrote: | What this reinforces is that unlike with previous big innovations | (cloud, iphone, etc), incumbents will not sit on their laurels | with the AI wave. They are aggressively integrating it into their | products which (1) provides a relatively cheap step function | upgrade and (2) keeps the barrier high for startups to use AI as | their wedge. | | I attribute the speed at which incumbents are integrating AI into | their products to a couple things: | | * Whereas AI was a hand-wavey marketing term in the past, it's | now the real deal and provides actual value to the end user. | | * The technology and DX with integrating w/products from OpenAPI, | SD, is good. | | * AI and LLMs are capturing a lot of attention right now (as seen | easily by how often they pop up on HN these days). It's in the | zeigeist so you get a marketing boost for free. | adam_arthur wrote: | Creating AI models has proven to simply be easier than other | past innovations. Much lower barrier to entry, the knowledge | seems to be spread pervasively within months of breakthroughs. | | People seem to take offense at this idea, but the proof is in | the pudding. Every week there's a new company with a new model | coming out. What good did Google's "AI Talent" do for them when | OpenAI leapfrogged them with only a few hundred people? | | It's difficult to achieve high margins when barrier to entry is | low. These AI companies are going to be moreso deflationary for | society rather than high margin cash cows as the SaaS wave was | ftufek wrote: | It's easier for large rich companies with infrastructure and | datasets. It's very hard for small startups to build useful | real world models from scratch, so you see most people | building on top of SD and APIs, but that limits what you can | build, for example it's very hard to build realistic photo | editing on top of stable diffusion. | unreal37 wrote: | Someone was able to replicate GPT 3.5 with $500. The | training of models is getting very cheap. | | [1] https://newatlas.com/technology/stanford-alpaca-cheap- | gpt/ | ftufek wrote: | I've tried it, sure it's good, but not even close to the | real thing. But yes it's getting cheaper through better | hardware, better data and better architectures. Also it | builds on Facebook's models that were trained for months | on thousands of A100 GPUs. | adam_arthur wrote: | Most of the cutting edge models are coming from companies | with a few dozen to a few hundred people. Stability AI is | one example. | | Training an AI model, while expensive, is vastly cheaper | than most large scale products. | | This wave will be nothing like the SaaS wave. Hyper | competitive rather than weakly-competitive/margin | preserving | ftufek wrote: | I wrote it from the perspective of a small startup (<10 | people, bootstrapped or small funding). I think it's far | cheaper and easier to build a nice competitive mobile | app/saas than to build a really useful model. | | But yes I agree, it will be very competitive with much | smaller margins. | sebzim4500 wrote: | That's not really true though. 4 months on and no one else is | close to matching the original ChatGPT. | | It's too early to say how hard this is, for all we know no | one but OpenAI will match it before 2024. | onlyrealcuzzo wrote: | > * Whereas AI was a hand-wavey marketing term in the past, | it's now the real deal and provides actual value to the end | user. | | The skeptic in me thinks it's more: | | * The market is rewarding companies for doing X (integrating | AI), so companies are doing X (integrating AI). | | Song as old as time. | hn_throwaway_99 wrote: | I think you're missing a fundamental reason: adding AI | functionality into products is simply easier. | | That is, these companies are largely _not_ doing the hard part, | which is creating and training these models in the first place. | The examples you gave of of cloud and iPhone have both huge | capital barriers to entry, and in iPhones case other phone | companies just didn 't have the unique design talent | combination of Jobs and Ive. | mesh wrote: | >That is, these companies are largely not doing the hard | part, which is creating and training these models in the | first place. | | fyi, for Adobe Firefly, we are training or models. From the | FAQ: | | "What was the training data for Firefly? | | Firefly was trained on Adobe Stock images, openly licensed | content and public domain content, where copyright has | expired." | | https://firefly.adobe.com/faq | | (I work for Adobe) | egypturnash wrote: | I am definitely glad to see attention being paid to ethical | sourcing of training images but I am curious: did the | people who made all those stock images get paid for their | work being used for training? Did they check a box that | explicitly said "Adobe can train an AI on my work"? Or is | there a little clause lurking in the Adobe Stock agreement | that says this can be done without even a single purchase | happening? | unreal37 wrote: | Nobody owes creators who have been paid fully for their | work "extra" compensation just because AI is involved. | Assuming they have been paid, the work belongs to Adobe. | ttjjtt wrote: | Defining how "fully" paid a creator has been is the | entire point of license agreements. It defines the extent | of how much the rights have been purchased away from | them. | | It merits investigation as to have these creators been | "fully" paid to the extent that they have no claim to any | future royalties and can have no objection to their work | being used as training data. | webnrrd2k wrote: | I'm not sure it true that creators are owed nothing | further... It seems analogous to a musician signing over | rights for one thing, like recording rights on wax disks, | records or whatever. Then along comes radio, after the | artists signed away a smaller set of rights. The radio | companies claim that they owe the artists nothing. But is | that true? | | And that's a different question from whether or not they | _deserve_ extra compensation. Is it moral or ethical to | use their work to directly undercut them via ai | 'copying' their work? | justinclift wrote: | Heh Heh Heh | | Half the problems with music is because of record | companies magically inventing new ways to try and extract | more money from each other and their supply chain. | | "Oh, your band looked at some hookers they passed on the | way to the recording studio? Well, they obviously owe | those hookers a cut of the royalties now for | inspiration..." | | Trying to use AI as an excuse to be paid a 2nd time (for | previously fully paid works) seems like another attempt | at rent seeking in a similar manner. | jacobr1 wrote: | The prior deal was based on royalties for use. Adobe pays | you 33% percent of anything they make. It is consignment. | So if someone uses a specific photo for $20, you get paid | $6.60, no money us paid upfront. | | So what should adobe pay you for using the data in | training? Some kind of fraction of the overall revenue | they generate from the new product? The license currently | used for their stock program make it seem like they don't | have to pay anything at all, because this use cases | wasn't understood previously. Adobe reserved to rights to | do it, so legally they can - but if they want to continue | getting contributions they will need to figure out some | kind of updated royalty sharing agreement. | krisoft wrote: | > Assuming they have been paid | | That is the question we are asking, yes. Based on the | reading of the contributor agreement it sounds like Adobe | doesn't have to pay a cent to the creators to train | models on their work. | | Does that sound fair to you? | stale2002 wrote: | And I am sure that you use your computer for work, to | make money, and yet you based on the reading of the | contributor agreement it sounds like [The computer | buyer/you] doesn't have to pay a cent to the [computer | creator] for all the money you make using that computer. | | Does that sound fair to you? | | See how stupid that sounds? | TheOtherHobbes wrote: | It sounds stupid because it's a completely different | thing. | | A tool maker does not have a claim on the work made with | a tool, except by (exceptionally rare) prior agreement. | | Creative copyright explicitly _does_ give creators a | claim on derivative work made using their creative | output. | | That includes patents. If you use a computer protected by | patents to create new items which specifically ignore | those patents, see how far that gets you. | | I expect you find this inconvenient, but it's how it | works. | stale2002 wrote: | > Creative copyright explicitly does give creators a | claim on derivative work made using their creative | output. | | No actually, not for this situation. They don't if they | sold the right to do that, which they did. | | > except by (exceptionally rare) prior agreement | | Oh ok. So then, if in situation 1, and situation 2, there | is the same exact prior agreement on the specific topic | of if you are allowed to make derivative works, then the | situations are exactly same. | | Which is the situation. | | So yes, the situations are the same, because of the same | prior agreement. | | Thats why the situation is stupid. The creator sold the | rights to make derivative works away. Just like if | someone sold you a computer. | | And then people used the computer, and also used the sold | rights to make derivatives works for the art, because | both the computer and the right to make derivative works | were equally sold. | | > which specifically ignore those patents | | Ok now imagine someone sells the rights to use the patent | in any way that they want, and then you come along and | say "Well, can you considered that if the person didn't | sell the patent, that this would be illegal?" | | That wouldn't make any sense to say that. | unreal37 wrote: | I don't know if there is a concept in copyright that | prevents someone from viewing your work. | | Like, if you created a lovely piece of art, hung it on | the outside of your house, and I was walking on the | sidewalk and viewed it. I would not owe you money and you | would have no claim of copyright against me. | | Copyright covers copying. Not viewing. | | So an AI views your art, classifies it, does whatever | magic it does to turn your art into a matrix of numbers. | The model doesn't contain a copy of your art. | | Of course, a court needs to decide this. But I can't see | how allowing an AI model to view a picture constitutes | making an illegal copy. | dragonwriter wrote: | > Of course, a court needs to decide this. But I can't | see how allowing an AI model to view a picture | constitutes making an illegal copy. | | Memory involves making a copy, and copies anywhere | _except_ in the human brain are within the scope of | copyright (but may fall into exceptions like Fair Use.) | flangola7 wrote: | ChatGPT trained on my GitHub code and I wasn't paid | anything at all. Is that preferable? | ClumsyPilot wrote: | "Since someone screwed me, they should screw you"? Crab | bucket mentality? | jacobr1 wrote: | It might also be wrong, yes. I have plenty of code | licensed under very permissive licenses that still | requires attribution. It is an open question of how much | the AI system is a "derived" work in a specific, | technical sense. And it probably will remain hard, since | the answer is probably on a continuum. | krisoft wrote: | > Is that preferable? | | I don't see why you are asking this. Which part of my | comment made you think it is preferable? | TheOtherHobbes wrote: | Some very strange responses in this sub-thread. | | When the agreement was signed no one was even able to | imagine their work being used for AI. As far as they knew | they were signing a standard distribution agreement with | one particular rights outlet, while reserving all other | rights for more general use. If anyone had asked about | automated use in AI it's very likely the answer would | have been a clear "No." | | It's predatory and very possibly unlawful to assume the | original agreement wording grants that right | automatically. | | The existence of contract wording does not automatically | imply the validity of that wording. Contracts can always | be ruled excessive, predatory, and unlawful no matter | what they say or who signed them. | krisoft wrote: | > If anyone had asked about automated use in AI it's very | likely the answer would have been a clear "No." | | Maybe. Maybe not. Very clearly there is a price point | where it could be worth it for the artist. Like if adobe | paid more for the rights than they recon they will ever | earn in a lifetime or something. But clearly everybody | would have said "no" at the great price point of 0 | dollars. | irrational wrote: | If they signed the contract, then yes. | yoden wrote: | The creators of these images assigned the rights to | adobe, including allowing Adobe to develop future | products using the images. So yes, this is perfectly | fair. | | It's completely different than many (most?) other | companies, which are training on data they don't have the | right to re-distribute. | krisoft wrote: | > So yes, this is perfectly fair. | | I think you are making a jump here. I'm not a lawyer, but | your first sentence seems to be about why it is legal. | And then you conclude that that is why it is also fair. | I'm with you on the first one, but not sure on the | second. | | The creators uploaded their images so adobe can sell | licences for them and they get a share of the licence | fees. Just a year ago if you asked almost any people what | "using the images to develop new products and services" | mean they would have told you something like these | examples: Adobe can use the images in internal mockups if | they are developing a new ipad app to sell the licences, | or perhaps a new website where you can order a t-shirt | print of them. | | The real test of fairness I think is to imagine what | would have happened if Adobe ring the doorbell of any of | the creators and asked them if they can use their images | to copy their unique style to generate new images. | Probably most creators would have agreed on a price. | Maybe a few thousand dollars? Maybe a few million? Do you | think many would have agreed to do it for zero dollars? | If not, then how could that be fair? | krisoft wrote: | I'm not a lawyer and I don't work for Adobe. :) | | The contributor agreement linked from here[1] is this: | [2] | | "You grant us a non-exclusive, worldwide, perpetual, | fully-paid, and royalty-free license to use, reproduce, | publicly display, publicly perform, distribute, index, | translate, and modify the Work for the purposes of | operating the Website; presenting, distributing, | marketing, promoting, and licensing the Work to users; | developing new features and services; archiving the Work; | and protecting the Work. " | | I guess this would fall under the "developing new | features and services". | | What is funny is that "we may compensate you at our | discretion as described in section 5 (Payment) below". :) | I like when I may be compensated :) | | And in section 5 they say: "We will pay you as described | in the pricing and payment details at [...] for any sales | of licenses to Work, less any cancellations, returns, and | refunds." | | So yeah. Sucks to the artist who signed this. They can | use your work to develop new features and services, and | they do not have to pay you for that at all, since it is | not a sale of a license. | | 1: https://helpx.adobe.com/stock/contributor/help/submiss | ion-gu... | | 2: https://wwwimages2.adobe.com/content/dam/cc/en/legal/s | ervice... | pradn wrote: | The terms seem like legalese for "you pay me money now | and get to do anything with it". It doesn't seem far- | fetched for training AI models to be a valid use-case. | This is way better than scraping the whole internet, for | art by artists who have had no commercial arrangement | with Adobe. | wwweston wrote: | I'm starting to think that use of works in a training set | is a category not covered well by existing copyright law, | and it may be important to require separate explicit opt- | in agreement by law (and receipt of some consideration in | return) in order to be considered legitimate use. | | The vast majority of copyrighted works were conceived and | negotiated under conditions where ML reproduction | capabilities didn't exist and nobody knew what related | value they were negotiating away or buying. | musicale wrote: | Derivative works or remixes usually require a license. | Artists could very reasonably argue that AI-generated | images are derivative works from their own images - | especially if there is notable similarity or portions | appear to be copied. They could also point out that their | images were used for commercial purposes without | permission and without compensation to generate works | that compete with their own. | | For example, even a short sample used in a song usually | has to be licensed. Cover versions of songs may qualify | for a compulsory license with a set royalty payment | scale. | | However some reuse (such as transformative use, parodies, | or use of snippets for various purposes, especially non- | commercial purposes) may be considered fair use. AI | companies could very reasonably argue that use of images | for training AI models is transformative and qualifies as | fair use, that no components of the original images are | reused in AI-generated images, and that AI-generated | images are no more infringing than human-generated images | which show influences from other artists. | | Absent additional law, I expect the legal system will | have to sort out whether AI-generated images infringe the | copyright of their training images, and if so what sort | of licensing would be appropriate for AI-generated (or | other software/machine-generated) images based on | training data from images that are under copyright. | AJ007 wrote: | I propose that it is impossible to prove that any content | created after 2022 did or did not utilize ML/AI during | the process of its creation (art, code, music, audio, | text.) Thus, anything produced after 2022 should not be | eligible for copyright protection. Everything pre-2022 | may retain the existing copyright protection but should | be subject to extra taxes on royalties and fees given the | exorbitant privilege. | | Though this sounds extreme, enforcing the alternative | would break any last remnant of human privacy. It would | kill the independent operation of computing as we know it | and severely cripple AI/ML research when we need it most: | human alignment. | | It is possible that a catastrophic event occurs and halts | the supply chain of advanced semiconductors in the near | future, in which case the debate can be postponed | indefinitely. | novok wrote: | If this kind of abstract copyright regime of 'I had the | idea first, and anyone who uses a derivative of my idea | must pay me money!' is a very sillpery slope of anyone | who makes art or music of any genre needing to pay a | royalty to sony/disney, because that is where these | 'flavor copyrights' will end up going. The right kind of | ambitious amoral lawyer in a common law regime will | leverage an AI royalty law into a generic style copyright | law because that is what will be needed to write this law | properly. | | And on top of that, it will become a spotify where each | creator gets a sum total of $0.00000000001 per AI their | media item was trained on and maybe a few dollars a | month, while paying a greater tax to apple-sony-disney | whenever their AI style recognizers charge you a royalty | bill for using whatever bullshit styles it notices in | your media items. | | Copyright should stay in it's 'exact duplication' box, | lest we release an even worse intellectual property | monster on the world. | roughly wrote: | > They can use your work to develop new features and | services, and they do not have to pay you for that at | all, since it is not a sale of a license. | | And in this case, to develop new features and services | that specifically undercuts your existing business, viz. | selling stock photos for money. Sucks to the artists, | indeed. | [deleted] | anigbrowl wrote: | I'm sure that's a no. When you license a stock image you | license it for any use whatsoever. You don't get to | complain if it becomes the background to a porn movie or | an advert for a product or person you despise. Songs can | licensed on a case-by-case basis but images are so | plentiful as to be a commodity. | wahnfrieden wrote: | Simply untrue, legally and socially | ghaff wrote: | Not quite. For example, this is one thing Adobe says in | their FAQ: Images showing models can't be used in a | manner that the models could perceive as offensive. (For | example, avoid using images with models on the cover of a | steamy romance novel or a book about politics or | religion, etc.) | | There are also a few other more Adobe-specific | restrictions. | mesh wrote: | We are working on a compensation model for Stock | contributors for the training content, and will have more | details by the time we release. | | The training is based on the licensing agreement for | Adobe contributors for Adobe Stock. | | (I work for Adobe) | roughly wrote: | I would be very, very interested to see a compensation | system that took into account the outputs of the trained | model - as in, weights derived from your work are | attributable to X% of the output of this system, and | therefore you are due Y% of the revenue generated by it. | It sounds like Adobe is taking seriously the question of | artist compensation, and I'd love to see someone tackle | the "Hard Problem" of actual attribution in these types | of systems. | astrange wrote: | That is impossible. You might be able to do it if you | invented a completely different method of image | generation, but the amount of original images present in | a diffusion model is 0% with reasonable training | precautions, and attributing its weights to particularly | any of its input is nearly arbitrary. | | (Also, it's entirely possible that eg a model could | generate images resembling your work without "seeing" any | of your work and only reading a museum website describing | some of it. Resemblance is in the eye of the beholder.) | brookst wrote: | I've looked a few times, but have not seen any research | on assigning provenance to the weights used in a | particular inference run. It's a super interesting space | for a bunch of reasons. | | But the naive approach of having a table of how much each | individual training item influenced every weight in the | model seems impossibly big. For DALL-E 2's 6.5B | parameters and 650m training items, that's 4.2 | quadrillion associations. And then you have to figure out | which weights contributed the most to an output. | | I would love to see any research or even just thinking | that anyone's done on this topic. It seems like it will | be important in the future, but it also seems like a | crazy difficult scale problem as models get bigger. | bash-j wrote: | Could you not use tags used to label the image? If your | image contains more niche tags that match the user input, | your revenue share will be higher. Depending how much | extra people earn for certain tags, it might incentivise | people to upload more images of what is missing from the | training data. | brookst wrote: | That's interesting, but I'm not sure it works. I think | that works out to "for any given prompt, distribute | credit to every source image that has a keyword that | appears in the prompt, proportional to how many other | source images had that same keyword". | | If I include the tag "floor", do I get some (tiny) | percentage of every image that uses "floor" in the | prompt, even if the bits from my image did not end up | affecting model weights much at all in training? | | Worse, for tags like "dramatic lighting", it's likely | that the important source images will depend on the other | words in the prompt; "sunset, dramatic lighting" will | probably not use the rely on the same weights or source | images as "theater interior, dramatic lighting". | | And then you get the perverse incentives to tag every | image with every possible tag :) | | I'd love to be convinced otherwise, but I'm not seeing | prompt-to-tag association working. | bash-j wrote: | The tags could be added by a model rather than the user | submitting the image. Maybe do both and verify the tags | with a model? Users could get a rating based on how | reliably they tag their pictures and are trusted to add | more niche tags at higher ratings. You could even help | tag other pictures to improve your rating. | gradys wrote: | https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.04730 | | > How can we explain the predictions of a black-box | model? In this paper, we use influence functions -- a | classic technique from robust statistics -- to trace a | model's prediction through the learning algorithm and | back to its training data, thereby identifying training | points most responsible for a given prediction. | brookst wrote: | Oh thank you! Will go read and digest. | jamilton wrote: | I think the naive approach of just dividing revenue | equally across all contributors could be acceptable, and | would have lower overhead costs. | egypturnash wrote: | Thanks! I am delighted to know that Adobe's got plans on | that front. | hn_throwaway_99 wrote: | Thanks for correcting my bad assumption, appreciated. | jokethrowaway wrote: | Sure but are you standing on the shoulders of Stable | Diffusion or not? | | Fine tuning Stable Diffusion with your own images is way | easier than creating Stable Diffusion in the first place. | | If you're creating your own I stand corrected and that's | some serious investment. | irrational wrote: | Where did you read that they were using Stable Diffusion? | astrange wrote: | Stable Diffusion 1.x isn't original work either; it uses | OpenAI CLIP. | | But training your own is pretty doable if you have the | budget and enough image/text pairs. Most people don't | have the budget, but at least Midjourney and Google have | their own models. | leet wrote: | This is not based on just fine tuning Stable Diffusion. | samstave wrote: | Ha, I didnt even need to read the article to assume this! | | I instantly thought of how bitchin' their library of images | must be. | | Can you tell us how many images/size of set? | Vt71fcAqt7 wrote: | Adobe in particular, however, has been more twords the | forefront of AI research. I'm pretty sure they aren't just | using SD here. They might not even be using transformers at | all. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35089661 | capableweb wrote: | They also have the resources to build a huge training set, | together with people who willingly upload their art and | photos to them, which they can use to make the training set | better than publicly available data. | mesh wrote: | Just to be really clear what we do and do not train on: | | Firefly was trained on Adobe Stock images, openly | licensed content and public domain content, where | copyright has expired. | | https://firefly.adobe.com/faq | | We do not train on user content. More info here: | | https://helpx.adobe.com/manage-account/using/machine- | learnin... | lelandfe wrote: | One step further, they already have a huge training set. | Stock libraries have the luxury of the hard part already | being done: labeling. As of today, that's >313M labeled | images they can use with no fear of legal woes: https://s | tock.adobe.com/search/images?filters%5Bcontent_type... | | Stable Diffusion was trained on _billions_ of images, of | course. But having explored some of LAION-2B, it 's clear | that Adobe Stock has far better source images and labels. | boplicity wrote: | They also know most of their business customers already | have GPUs, and often have high-end GPUs, so they're able to | tailor solutions to the hardware their customers already | have. For example, the speech to text feature in Adobe | Premeire runs on local hardware, and is actually pretty | good. | | Hopefully they'll continue to push the potential for | locally run models. | joe_the_user wrote: | _That is, these companies are largely not doing the hard | part, which is creating and training these models in the | first place._ | | No, there is no real "hard part" to AI current. Training is | simply "the expensive part". | | It seems "the bitter lesson" has gone from reflection to | paradigm[1] and with that as paradigm, the primary barrier to | entering AI is cash for cpu cycles, other things matter but | recipes is relatively simple and relatively available. | | [1] http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html | zwaps wrote: | I get your point, but please do read the training logs for | Meta's OPT, it's some Greek drama I tell ya | exac wrote: | I don't think they missed it, their second point is that the | DX (developer experience) is good. | usrusr wrote: | > That is, these companies are largely not doing the hard | part, | | Are they the hard parts though? The short time it took from | the first waves of public excitment around DALL-E to stable | diffusion being the well established baseline looks more like | the class quantity of problems that can be reliably solved by | shoving enough resources at it. What I consider hard problems | are those full of non-obvious dead ends are where no matter | how much you invest, you might just dig yourself in deeper. | brookst wrote: | The hard part is building a product customers want, | delivering it at scale, and iterating on product value and | revenue. | | The rest is just technology. | usrusr wrote: | And that had been true enough even before the "quantity | matters!" of ML entered the stage. | quitit wrote: | Also missed: All these big tech companies were already | invested in AI and using it in their products: it just | happens that the latest batch of AI tools are far more | impressive than their internal efforts. | samstave wrote: | I think you are _both correct_ | | But this phrase from GP is pretty darn salient: | | >>" _They are aggressively integrating it into their products | which (1) provides a relatively cheap step function upgrade | and (2) keeps the barrier high for startups to use AI as | their wedge._ " | bredren wrote: | I attribute it more to open source and free plugins into | existing Adobe products like Photoshop. | | People are already using these plugins to do inpainting etc | with Stable Diffusion. Adobe is trying to provide official | support simply to keep up. | | To me, the most novel thing is the data source being free of | licensing concerns. | | But that, too, will be eroded as more models appear based on | datasets with straightforward licensing for derived works. | | Image stock collections (and prior deals around them) seem more | valuable now than they did before all this. | balls187 wrote: | It's important to note that this is _generative_ AI. | | As pretty much everyone on HN is aware, AI is a broad term for | a variety of technologies. | | AI has been in our everyday lives for quite some time, but not | in a way that generated (no pun intended) such buzz. | | Having my iphone scan emails and pre-populate my calendar with | invite suggestions is far less newsworthy as the ability to | generate a script for an Avengers film where all the members | are as in articulate as the Incredible Hulk. | | If anything, with generative AI being so buzzy, this latest | round of AI integration is more marketing. | cmorgan31 wrote: | I can't think of a company more suited to take advantage of | the generative AI hype. If firefly is built into the adobe | stack you'll have a rather elegant composition and refinement | toolkit to modify anything you dislike about the generative | output. | DantesKite wrote: | > It's in the zeigeist so you get a marketing boost for free. | | I never thought about it that way, but now that you mention it, | it makes so much sense. | luke_cq wrote: | I think what we're going to see is that all the small startups | going for big, broad ideas ("we do AI writing for anything", | "your one-stop marketing content automation platform", etc) are | going to flat out lose to the big companies. I predict that the | startups we'll see survive are the ones that find tight niches | and solve for prompt engineering and UX around a very specific | problem. | wouldbecouldbe wrote: | Except for Chat GPT I havent yet seen super impressive | implementations. Dall-e, codepilots, text to speech etc. are | still all not good enough to use for more then playing around. | | However this landingpage looks amazing. | | Any good other tips? | danielbln wrote: | Midjourney v5 might be ready for prime time, in most cases it | seems to have solved faces, hands, etc. The difference | between version 1 from exactly one year ago and v5 now is | rather striking: https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c | _limit,f_webp,q_... | ShamelessC wrote: | This is effectively DALLE-2 (apparently retrained on | different data) with a native frontend designed by | experienced designers. | | You don't see the value in effectively not needing any | art/design skills to make aesthetically pleasing | logos/mockups/memes? Even just for "playing around" - I bet | there's a large market of people who want to add "fun edits" | to their existing personal photo library. | | Focus less on landing pages and more on the implications a | technology brings. Then you'll see where things are headed. | wouldbecouldbe wrote: | I've tried to use DALL-E for practical purposes such as | generating icons, art etc. for commercial products but most | of it is unusable. | criddell wrote: | > I attribute the speed at which incumbents are integrating AI | into their products to a couple things | | And also it's something many companies have been working on for | a big part of the last decade. Kevin Kelly in particular has | been talking about it for at least the past 7 years. In 2016 he | released a book titled "The Inevitable: Understanding the 12 | Technological Forces That Will Shape Our Future" and the | addition of AI to _everything_ is covered in that book. | wongarsu wrote: | Another point is that many of the incumbents have seen the | trend for far longer than the general public, and had time to | gather inhouse talent. For example this isn't Adobe's first | stint into generative AI, back in 2016 they announced (and | quietly dropped after the backlash) Adobe VoCo, "photoshop for | voice". | Pxtl wrote: | Right? Adobe was first to market with properly integrated AI- | based photo editing features with stuff like Content Aware | Fill back in 2015 iirc. | dopeboy wrote: | This is a great point. It appears the success of OpenAPI has | validated their approach, specifically around (1) using the | web as a training set and (2) using transformers. | | I imagine a lot conversations with in-house AI folks is | around deploying these methods. | MarcoZavala wrote: | [dead] | nvr219 wrote: | > * Whereas AI was a hand-wavey marketing term in the past, | it's now the real deal and provides actual value to the end | user. | | Ehhh.... Sometimes. It's still a hand-wavey marketing term | today. Almost every sales call I'm in either the prospect is | asking about AI, or more likely the vendor is saying something | like "We use our AI module to help you [do some function not at | all related to AI]". Also, even when it's "real" AI (in the | sense that we're talking about here), it's not always providing | actual value to the end user. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it | isn't. | aardvarkr wrote: | Like a toothbrush with "AI" that tells you when you've | brushed enough | jstummbillig wrote: | Yes, not everything AI is working out - never has, and never | will. The same is true in any field. And yes, there will be a | display of incompetence, delusion and outright fraud. Again, | in any field, always. | | However, with AI in general, we have very decidedly passed | the point where it Works (image generation probably being the | most obvious example of it) | | Even if, starting now, the underlying technology did not | improve in the slightest, while adoption rises as it is going | to with any new technology that provides value, anyone who | does not adopt is going to be increasingly uncompetitive. It | quite simply is too good already, to not to be used to | challenge what a lot of average humans are paid to do in | these fields. | Hard_Space wrote: | I wish these schemes would stop using Discord. It's just a cheap | grab at building a community where one might not gather | naturally, and the generative grunt that goes into public Discord | prompts would be just the same in a logged-in API such as | ChatGPT. | jonifico wrote: | IMHO,it was only a matter of time before the big names started to | include AI generations on their software. I'm guessing if most of | the AI design tools that are being launched everyday and which | relies mostly in consuming a public api could be easily absorbed? | daveslash wrote: | People have been talking about things like ChatGPT Doing code, | but I just realized... something like ChatGPT could be | _incorporated_ right into your IDE. | | Think Clippy, for Code... " _I see you 're trying to write a | recursive function to compute finocacci. Would you like help?_" | | Or Code Reviews / Static-Code-Analysis: "Hey Visual Studio. | I've written a RESTful API for my application. What do you | think of the approach, architecture, and adherence to best | practices? What can I do to improve it?" | | Or instead of scratching your head going _" why doesn't this | work?"_, just typing that question directly into your IDE.... | rafram wrote: | That's just Copilot. | clpm4j wrote: | This is kind of like Copilot inside of VSCode right now. | rubyron wrote: | Clippai(tm) | Nevermark wrote: | I was just going to downvote you, but really, this deserves | some very public shaming! Ugh!!! /h | | But it does appear that we are all doomed to spend our | lives with assigned clippai's | | Dystopia. Dystopai? | johndhi wrote: | this is very cool. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-03-21 23:00 UTC)