[HN Gopher] Your reading should be messy
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Your reading should be messy
Author : ingve
Score : 52 points
Date : 2023-03-26 07:27 UTC (15 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.robinrendle.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.robinrendle.com)
| huijzer wrote:
| I couldn't agree more. I listen to multiple audiobooks sort of
| intermittently plus multiple podcasts and it's great to have such
| a mess. It's about processing the information. What's the point
| of reading a book if you don't plan to remember it! Even fiction
| should be memorable I hope
| exmadscientist wrote:
| In fact, _everything_ should be treated this way. Yes, you
| shouldn 't abuse stuff (which is a very fine line -- sometimes
| being very harsh on a tool can save your ass, is that abuse or
| just the tool rising to the occasion?), but it's always meant to
| be used. Objects fall into two categories:
|
| 1. Things meant to be preserved so future generations can have
| them, just as you have them now.
|
| 2. Things meant to be used.
|
| (A third category, things meant to appreciate in value, is so
| close to #1 that it's not worth separating out.)
|
| Use your stuff. That's what it's for. Who do you respect more,
| the mechanic with a toolbox full of pristine tools without a
| single scratch, or the one with a box full of battered, dinged-up
| tools? This article's library full of factory-new books, or one
| full of creased, dog-eared, broken-spined books? Which child's
| toy had the better life, the one that's indistinguishable from
| new or the one that's indistinguishable from a pile of scraps and
| fluff?
|
| Use. Your. Stuff. It's what it's for.
| GlumWoodpecker wrote:
| Category 3: Anything that isn't disposable or a tool. Most
| stuff can be of value to others once you are done using it. I
| treat all my stuff with care, because some day I might want to
| sell it, or give it away to someone. Whether it's a book,
| electronics, kitchenware, or furniture doesn't really matter;
| The value of the item (in money or in usefulness to the
| recipient) will always be higher the better condition something
| is in. You also are less likely to have to buy replacement
| items if you are careful with them in the first place. I agree
| in that you shouldn't treat everything like porcelain, but
| there is definitely value in treating your things with care.
| pessimizer wrote:
| I think you meant for 2, "Things meant to be used up." You use
| the things in category 1, too.
|
| For me, category one includes all of my books. Category two
| consists almost entirely of food, cleaning and hygiene
| products, and most bedding and underwear.
|
| I got most of my books after they had been purchased and
| probably read, I don't know why I should assume I was the end
| of the line. [edit: I mean, I have books and things that I know
| have had multiple owners; I've got books from Bell Labs'
| library that were lent out a few dozen times and touched by
| many more hands. Why should I scribble in them and treat them
| like shit again? Instead of treating them like shit, I'd rather
| just destroy them in a careful scanning process.]
|
| > Who do you respect more, the mechanic with a toolbox full of
| pristine tools without a single scratch, or the one with a box
| full of battered, dinged-up tools?
|
| If by "respect" you mean would rather hire, I'd rather hire the
| third guy with the well-used, very well-taken care of tools.
| Why would I hire a slob that isn't maintaining their equipment?
| catiopatio wrote:
| I use my stuff, carefully, and it lasts.
|
| My childhood toys were often nearly indistinguishable from new,
| but that's not because I didn't spend eons playing with them.
|
| When I outgrew them, they were passed on and enjoyed just as
| much by the next child.
|
| In my experience, there are two different potential meanings
| behind the saying "stuff is meant to be used":
|
| (1) Stuff is meant to be used, so don't sweat the minor
| scratches, dings, and wear that comes from using it well.
|
| (2) Stuff is meant to be used, so don't criticize me for my
| absolute lack of care when I use things.
|
| I'm very much in camp (1), and I don't have a lot of respect
| for camp (2). It's wantonly wasteful, and prevents passing down
| and reusing possessions.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| Some books are not good enough to be messy with. But those that
| are good enough are either scribbled in everywhere or left in
| pristine condition while taking notes elsewhere to not disgrace
| the masterpiece.
| cutler wrote:
| Disagree completely. My copy of "Programming Perl" 4th edition is
| still in pristine condition after two readings and I prefer it
| that way. My favourite tech books all have plastic jackets which
| I ordered individually for each book.
| pessimizer wrote:
| I actually disagree _except_ in the case of programming
| /software books. Unless the book is for an unusual example or
| early version of a language or piece of software, it's going
| into the landfill in 5 years no matter what.
| cardanome wrote:
| Books are expensive.
|
| Sure, I am currently earning enough money to be able to afford
| messing up my books if I wanted to but it feels so wasteful.
| Feels so weird to purposely vandalize your own stuff. I prefer
| making notes in a separate medium and keeping my books clean.
|
| I like being able to gift or sell my books to other people. Plus,
| I might want to re-read them and I really dislike having any
| annotations in them. I feel like it would stop me from having a
| "fresh read".
| cocacola1 wrote:
| I feel the opposite. Writing in a book is the final step in
| really making it mine. Not writing in it seems to be an insult
| to the author, that what they wrote isn't important enough to
| engage with (though some are that bad).
| cardanome wrote:
| How did you grow up that you could develop that habit though?
|
| Thinking about my childhood, the vast majority of the books I
| read were from libraries. School books were also all lend
| from school. Sure, I also owned plenty of books myself but my
| parents would have been pretty pissed if I vandalized them as
| my siblings might want to read them.
|
| For me books where always something to share not something to
| own. Never got the need to make them "my own".
| pessimizer wrote:
| I take pride in _not_ making them my own, and that other
| people will have them after I 'm dead, and the books will
| be _theirs._ I 've been taking care of some books for 40
| years now. Plenty of those I got because someone else took
| care of them for 40 years before me. If anything, I feel
| guilty when I accidentally buy bad books that no one in the
| future would want to read.
|
| Honestly, when people who take care of their things die,
| it's like an explosion of wealth. The things in my place
| range from the mid-19th century to today. If you let people
| pick through my shit and take something that looks cool, my
| death could result in 1000 smiles.
|
| edit: I even take care of the things that I've _made._ They
| 're no doubt _mine_ , but some of those things will make
| someone else just as happy as they've made me.
| pedrosbmartins wrote:
| It seems you are mistaking the actual book (a story, an
| exposition of a subject, etc.) for the printed set of cover
| and pages, which is only a physical instance of the book
| itself. Writing your notes in a separate medium is _just as
| much engaging_ with the book as writing in the margins of a
| physical copy. It 's a matter of taste really, but definitely
| not an insult to the author!
| DDayMace wrote:
| I think it really depends on the book, type of printing and its
| purpose. You might have a first edition you never open and read
| the kindle instead, have a cheap paperback for the beach that has
| sand and water wrinkles, or you might have a well used out of
| print tech book that you are gentle with in the hopes it will
| last longer than you do. If someone wants a display quality
| hardback to line their living room bookshelf to impress guests or
| accent their video meeting background, so what?
|
| Life is too short to read everything. Read what keeps your
| interest, page by page. If a book bores you, don't finish it.
| Sell it, give it to a friend, drop it off at goodwill, let it
| gather dust. So what? Just my two cents.
| namaria wrote:
| I've always felt that the contents of books are precious. I
| always go for the cheapest copy I can find so I can get my hands
| on as many books as possible. And the more worn a book is, more
| of it's content has made its way into my brain =)
| Ferret7446 wrote:
| I think we should break down this topic further.
|
| One of the key contention points is whether one respects the
| book/author by keeping the book pristine vs marking it (or
| whether the book as a physical object deserves respect). This is
| purely subjective, and has a historical precedent. Books used to
| be freaking expensive, so of course you would want to preserve
| it. Now, most books can be printed cheaply, but some people still
| like to keep their possessions clean. There are many other
| examples of this divide, like how people use their tools, pots,
| kitchens, cars, laptops, etc.
|
| The other is whether actively engaging with the book helps with
| understanding and recall. I don't think there is much
| disagreement on this point, but this does not require marking the
| physical book. You can use post-it notes and such, but in the
| digital age, arguably marking a physical book is inferior to
| annotating a digital copy and cross-hyperlinking it with other
| books and your personal knowledge base. Unfortunately both the
| technology and copyright law is lacking in this area as far as
| I'm aware, but rather than debating whether to write in physical
| books, I think everyone would benefit from innovating on the
| digital side of things.
| igloo_ghost wrote:
| I make highlights in Calibre and export them as markdown to
| make it part of my knowledge management system
| the_af wrote:
| If you scribble one of my books, I'll kill you. I don't
| understand people who do this.
|
| Other than that, I agree that books want to be handled. I read a
| lot of books and I also re-read a lot, and my books look worn. I
| also accept bending pages to remember where you left the story; I
| never have bookmarks handy.
|
| But scribbling? No, you're banned from my house.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > I also accept bending pages to remember where you left the
| story; I never have bookmarks handy.
|
| I decided about 20 years ago I wasn't going to use bookmarks
| anymore. If I can't find where I was, I need to reread from
| whatever I recognize. If I can't figure out a place to drop in
| and understand what's going on, I should just start over from
| the beginning (it'll probably be faster the second time
| anyway.) I also really hate dogears; they crack off in about 10
| years or so.
| cocacola1 wrote:
| This seems to be about scribbling in your own books though, not
| someone elses.
| the_af wrote:
| Yes, I understand. I disagree with scribbling in your own
| books because (I found) scribblers often forget and do it in
| the books I lend them. Also, I inherited books from my aunt,
| who was a heavy scribbler, and it annoys me. It has a factor
| of having a connection to her, which I appreciate... but I
| also find her scribblings distracting.
|
| Plus "your own books" are never truly just your own. In the
| example from the author of TFA, they are _his family 's_. I
| wouldn't have wanted my brother's or parent's scribblings in
| books from our family bookshelves!
| iamerroragent wrote:
| Writing in the margins is a thing I believe many a scribe has
| done for many generations
|
| It's recognized as a study aid. Especially if you're re-
| reading or studying a lot of material on a subject and need
| to go back. You can easily see what your past self was
| thinking or maybe quickly find a part you found interesting.
|
| It's fundamentally useful to write up your own books.
| the_af wrote:
| I never found useful to write up my own books. I find it
| ruins them for other people, too.
| iamerroragent wrote:
| Suit yourself.
|
| It is just one tool among many for the acquisition and
| retention of knowledge.
|
| I like used books with notes in it. It's interesting to
| see what someone previously reading felt was important or
| to glimpse into the past life of book itself.
| catiopatio wrote:
| I keep my own notebooks for my own notes. I don't need to
| scribble all over a book and ruin it for the next reader.
| dustingetz wrote:
| buy a 500 pack of bookmarks on amazon and sprinkle them around
| at all your reading spots, all of my books get their own
| bookmark
| the_af wrote:
| I usually get a free bookmark with every book I buy, but soon
| misplace them. Bending pages is the one sin I allow myself
| without much guilt. The damage is very light anyway.
| lfciv wrote:
| My personal take is books read better when they're "read". That
| is, when they've been used time and again. I tried switching to
| Kindle, but I found that I read less.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| My pepere has a worn copy of _On the Road_ by Kerouac near his
| chair that he often opens to an random page and begins reading.
| lfciv wrote:
| Funny I sometimes do the same with my copy of _The Hitchhiker
| 's Guide to the Galaxy_
| photochemsyn wrote:
| If you really like a book, you can get a nice archival copy on
| printed on acid-free paper and only read it while wearing special
| gloves, and also a working copy that you outline in and scribble
| in the margins and spill coffee on.
| ghaff wrote:
| Yeah. Not to criticize anyone else's take but, unless something
| is some variant of a "coffee table book" meant to be
| appreciated in part for its form, anything is fair game. Most
| cookbooks I regularly use have scribbling in the margins as
| well as reference books of other sorts. I have zero issue with
| taking notes in a paperback. Perhaps obviously, I like/prefer
| ebooks for a lot of purposes too.
|
| The form of some books is a lot of the experience and in
| general I won't mess that up by writing in them. But most are
| about the words and I don't consider the form sacrosanct in any
| way.
| oweiler wrote:
| Me and my son had a lot of fun "reading" this book
|
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/428862.Wreck_This_Journa...
| slickdork wrote:
| When I was a teen, I heard an author say they loved signing
| clearly well worn copies of their books. Not only did it mean it
| was not likely going to be resold, but it also meant it was well
| loved. I've always treated my books roughly since then.
|
| I always carry a paperback in my back pocket, and it's often
| margin written and beer stained. My favorite books get the worst
| treatment.
| cocacola1 wrote:
| The only books I do treat pristinely are those from the library -
| then, I write on a different page, as well as special copies e.g.
| I have an annotated and illustrated _The Hobbit_ , as well as an
| old paperback. The latter would be written in.
|
| But for books I own, I almost always annotate, highlight, mark
| up, write in, etc. however I want. I forgot who said it -
| probably Mortimer J. Adler - but writing in a book and engaging
| with it is the highest compliment you can pay to an author. T
| gerdesj wrote:
| The article does not capitalize all the words in its title.
| Reading is in Berkshire, reading is a gerund.
| ZoomZoomZoom wrote:
| The fact that you treat your books with respect by using them
| properly doesn't mean you're not going to read and maybe even
| love some of them.
|
| Knowing how to open a new book, how to turn pages properly,
| keeping your hands clean when you handle them, knowing how to
| wrap a book in a protective cover when you take it with you, and
| keeping the notes in your notebooks where they belong is
| essential. Little things like that is what human culture is made
| of.
| jjice wrote:
| > is essential
|
| I like the sentiment, but I think there is a healthy middle
| ground and really the right answer is for the owner of the book
| to treat it however they feel brings them the most job.
| sbaiddn wrote:
| "knowing how to wrap a book in a protective cover when you take
| it with you, "
|
| Did you grow up in a poor country? My mom used to do that when
| I was a kid. After we moved to N America I only saw it done
| once.
|
| Its actually quite lovely.
| stametseater wrote:
| When I was a kid my mother used to help me wrap all my
| textbooks, although we didn't do that with other books. It
| seemed typical at the time (in America btw) but it might be a
| dying practice as textbooks go digital and schools give kids
| ipads instead.
| pessimizer wrote:
| I don't know how old everyone is, but in the 80s (in the
| US) we would make covers for our textbooks with brown paper
| grocery bags. It wasn't affectionate; at the end of the
| year they charged you for damage (it was before modern
| hyperdisposable capitalism, and the same books would be
| used for years and multiple students.)
| sakras wrote:
| People who write in books: what do you write? I remember being
| forced to write on sticky notes in high school, and trying
| several times afterwards, and I just don't get it. I see the
| phrase "engaging with the writing" thrown around by proponents.
| What does "engaging" mean here?
|
| In regards to letting books get scuffed up, I must say I disagree
| as well. I like to keep all of my things shiny and new, and my
| books are no exception.
| japhyr wrote:
| I have a few different ways of marking up a text. In one
| approach, I make a small vertical line in the margin next to a
| line I find significant. Sometimes that vertical line extends
| down a few lines to mark a longer passage. If it's really
| important, I add a second line, and sometimes I'll even add a
| third line.
|
| For many books, this is just a way of mentally noting something
| and letting it go enough to move on. But if I end up wanting to
| write a review of a book (usually a blog post, not a bookstore
| review), I just skim through these marked up sections. That's
| usually enough to guide my write up. The triple-marked sections
| usually end up quoted in the review.
|
| I also write a capital R in the margin next to things I'd like
| to research further. Sometimes I put a question mark next to a
| section I'm skeptical of.
| Transfinity wrote:
| I don't usually write in fiction, but with nonfiction and
| especially technical writing (like O'Reilly books) I find
| taking notes helpful, and the book itself is the most
| convenient place up do so. I'll underline important words or
| phrases, ask questions, raise concerns, recall definitions from
| earlier.
|
| I find doing this helps keep me honest about whether I'm
| understanding what I'm reading or just glossing through it, and
| it helps pace my engagement. If I can't come up with one
| question or comment per page, I've probably lost focus.
| skydhash wrote:
| Engaging means thinking about the author's words as in you're
| in a debate/discussion. You may agree, but notice something you
| need to research more about. You may disagree and not down why
| you do. You may want to summarize the point he is making. You
| may want to link it to another work. For myself, I don't really
| do it if I'm new to the subject, maybe a few lines about each
| chapter. But once I've read a few different books, I'm starting
| to form my own opinion or try to link concepts across books.
| This is what my notes are about.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Why would you write those notes _in_ the book? To find the
| note, you 'd have to find the thing you were writing the note
| about (i.e. the passage on the page), so then what do you
| need the note for?
| voltaireodactyl wrote:
| The idea is when you return to that idea, you already have
| some context of where it lead you last time you read.
| Returning to that later allows you to keep building.
| examplary_cable wrote:
| Has anyone here heart of "incremental reading"?
|
| The concept of breaking a book into "chunks" and then
| individually scheduling those chunks to be read via an spaced
| repetition algorithm. The thing is that incremental reading is
| much harder to do with physical books. And you would have to
| either calculate the next schedule(hard) or use a simple leinter
| box system(loss of efficiency).
|
| I wonder if normal reading is this "pristine" reading and
| incremental reading being the "messy" reading.
| [deleted]
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Is this a good time to mention I replaced my library with a
| kindle some time ago? ^^
|
| (Someone was going to say it.)
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