[HN Gopher] An Open-Source Espresso ___________________________________________________________________ An Open-Source Espresso Author : lxm Score : 125 points Date : 2023-03-26 23:12 UTC (23 hours ago) (HTM) web link (hackaday.com) (TXT) w3m dump (hackaday.com) | amelius wrote: | I can't handle coffee anymore :( | | Please invent a drink that is like it but not as toxic. | all2 wrote: | You might enjoy matcha (especially with toasted rice in it), or | ground and brewed cacao nibs. Both are earthy, a tad bit | bitter, and very delicious. | yeswecatan wrote: | Yerba mate as well | diego_moita wrote: | It also contains caffeine. | | Depending on the variety and if it comes from male plants | it can have almost as much as coffee. | LesZedCB wrote: | This is a relevant watch by James Hoffmann on how open source | espresso machines kinda turned into Decent Espresso. (edit: ok, | on rewatch i guess it wasn't open source, it was kickstarter, | however philosophy was the similar - use off-the-shelf components | and software) | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKA2COJRt6M | | For what it's worth, i've had a Decent DE1+ for about 2 years, | and while it's very unlikely i'll change, i am excited to see | what other options crop up in the coming years. for me | personally, there is no competition, mainly from a quick-to-heat | and pressure/flow profiling perspective, both of which are quite | important to me. | | my understanding is the hardware side for accurate flow-profiling | really is quite hard with off-the-shelf components, so the open | source espresso machine is unlikely to become a widely available | commodity, unlike say 3d printers which can easily be homebrewed | and work amazingly well. | ackfoobar wrote: | This reminds me of the story of ZPM. It tried to use off-the- | shelf components and custom software to make it work well. | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKA2COJRt6M | | The world of atoms is so much harder than the world of bits. | sho_hn wrote: | The hardest part of hardware is mass production and support. | For a lot of things doing a good one-off is merely expensive | and time-intensive, but great as a hobby. That's why a lot of | DIY efforts are super impressive and have satisfying results, | even if you could never scale and productize them. | buildbot wrote: | Right, my theoretical one off hacked espresso machine might | be perfect, but requires troubleshooting or programming | skills or soldering to keep it working perfect - pretty much | a no go for most consumers. | mongol wrote: | In wonder how hard they tried, really. Feels like they more or | less took the money and called it quits | hn_throwaway_99 wrote: | Wow, this is so unfair to them. I followed the project with | intense interest from day 1, and "Feels like they more or | less took the money and called it quits" is total BS. | | To be clear, I think the original ZPM gang got in _waaaay_ | over their heads - one of the biggest problems is that the | kickstarter was just far too successful: the ZPM team had to | go from building a prototype to actually worrying about how | they were going to manufacture these at a sizable scale. I | think it 's totally fair to say they handled things quite | poorly as it became clear they were struggling, and if I were | a backer left with very little to show for it I'd probably be | mad, too, but to say "they more or less took the money and | called it quits" is not, at all, what happened. | malermeister wrote: | Seems like they tried pretty hard. Here's James Hoffman, the | authoritative Internet Coffee Weirdo, reviewing a prototype: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKA2COJRt6M | intrasight wrote: | I'd say my stovetop espresso maker is pretty open-source. And has | worked fine with no changes except new gaskets for 5 years now. I | did just have to replace it with a steel one since I now have | induction stovetops. | hn_throwaway_99 wrote: | I don't consider what a moka pot makes to be "espresso", and | neither do most coffee experts like SCAA. | intrasight wrote: | It's plenty strong for me. Wouldn't want it any stronger. | | I got it after using one in Italy for several days, and | couldn't go back to drip. | hn_throwaway_99 wrote: | I think that's a misconception about moka pot coffee vs. a | well-made espresso. Espresso isn't really "stronger" than | moka pot coffee. Moka pot coffee is actually brewed at a | higher temperature, but a lower pressure, than espresso. | Espresso temperature is not even boiling (200 F is a common | temp), but under much higher pressure by means of an | electric or manual lever pump (9 bar is the common | definition). | | The result, to me at least, is that espresso has a much | "thicker" mouth feel, but much less bitterness, than moka | pot coffee. | fellowmartian wrote: | This is neat, but I wish we'd move from retrofitting Gaggia | Classics to something more modern. Decent Espresso showed us that | boiler machines for home use are a dead end, because they have | too much thermal mass for rapid switching between brewing and | steaming. This is why I initially considered buying a Gaggia and | modding it, but ultimately got a Breville Infuser as it basically | comes pre-modded and is thermocoil-based, so you can quickly | switching to steaming. It's not the fastest steaming in the | world, but I think it's actually good for beginners to learn how | to steam on a slow machine. | newsclues wrote: | I hope this is more of a proof of concept. | | I think this is an example of part of the future of | manufacturing. | | Some things will be built from COTS parts. Others will be built | as custom one offs. Obviously there will be products made with | a hybrid of methods of building things. | | But increasing there will be an industry of people taking | products and modding or rebuilding them. From people who | upgrade cars, to modding watches for a unique look. Or taking a | common product like an expresso maker and make it open like | this, which could end up creating a market for COTS parts | instead of modding old products. | | As much as people are excited about 3D printing and high end | technology for manufacturing, rebuilding and upgrading old junk | has huge potential, as companies converting old cars into EVs | have found. | prpl wrote: | Lelit is the counterpoint to that - I have a Lelit Elizabeth | which, while expensive, is a fraction of what a Decent costs - | So I'm not sure "don't use boilers" pans out. | pnut wrote: | Another vote for Lelit, I have an Anna PL41TEM with the PID | controller, have made 2-3 perfect espressos every day, 7 days | a week, since 2017 like clockwork. | | That's >4,000 shots and counting... A very solid piece of | kit. | mixedCase wrote: | Yep, even the Lelit Bianca which is a dual-boiler and has | both flow control and a pressure knob is still cheaper than | the cheapest Decent despite the much more robust build. | eirikbakke wrote: | Switching from brewing to steaming takes about 4 minutes on a | single-boiler Rancilio, during which I can prepare the rest of | the breakfast or empty the dishwasher. For home use, this is | very practical. Besides, a single boiler means less work to | descale the machine, and fewer components that can break. | [deleted] | [deleted] | eschneider wrote: | I'll admit to being a complete heathen and warming milk in the | microwave and frothing it with a $10 hand wand before pouring | it over my moka pot brewed expression, but I'm happy with my | coffee. | nicolaslem wrote: | > Decent Espresso showed us that boiler machines for home use | are a dead end. | | Do you mean single boiler machines? Many home machines have no | problem switching because they just use two boilers, one for | brewing and one for steaming. | horsawlarway wrote: | Yeah, double boiler is very, very worth it IMO. | | Our machine has a 300ml boiler for brewing the shot, and a 1 | liter boiler for the steam wand and hot water wand, and it's | great. | | I can pull shots quickly after turning the machine on because | the 300ml boiler heats up fast. Steaming takes a few minutes | to heat up, but once there it'll keep going for a long time, | and I can keep pulling shots at the right temp in the mean | time. | | Way happier with the double boiler machine than I was with | the single boiler we used to use. Much less planning required | for my own use and I can actually serve several guests a nice | espresso/latte/cappuccino from the machine in a reasonable | time. | nicolaslem wrote: | I agree, having the two parts of the machine working | independently from each other makes a big difference even | at home. | | Dual boilers are more common but the same concept applies | to machines with dual thermocoils, like the one I picked. | fatnoah wrote: | Jumping on the double-boiler fan train. My family likes | lattes and I like espressos. I make them one at a time, and | it's nice to go from pulling the shot, to steam, next shot | & steam, etc. | nullityrofl wrote: | Dual boiler machines have been a perfectly fine solution to | this problem for a very, very long time. | | Decent's offering is good but vastly overcomplicated for the | majority of people who don't want a tablet on their coffee | machine in their kitchen. I much prefer the tactile experience | of using a traditional espresso machine. | stouset wrote: | You could also use a single boiler (which are better at | temperature regulation) for espresso pulls and a thermoblock | for steam. | | That said, boilers are pretty niche for home use. In order to | maintain good thermal regulation you need a decent sized mass | of water. That means a long time to preheat and a lot of | wasted energy. | | This isn't a dealbreaker for some, but for a casual consumer | who pulls one or two shots per day, it's pretty lacking in | convenience. | esperent wrote: | > Dual boiler machines have been a perfectly fine solution to | this problem for a very, very long time. | | A fine, but expensive and mechanically complex solution. Dual | boiler machines generally cost thousands even for small home | machines. Commercial dual boiler machines will set you back | at least $10-30k, easily. | | Besides that, there's the warm up time. Often 30+ minutes on | a commercial machine, then the electricity cost of keeping | several litres of water and heavy blocks of metal at boiling | point too. | | It's high time espresso machines got a mechanicals simpler, | cheaper, more environmentally friendly update. On the home | front, Breville and Decent are doing this, while commercially | I think some Ascaso machines use the same tech as Decent (not | 100% sure on that though and when I reached out to them about | it when considering one of their machines they just told me | "work with your local dealer". There's exactly one Ascaso | dealer in the country and they don't speak English so that | wasn't much help). | | Not to dismiss dual boilers or even good heat exchangers. | Both of them are beautiful technological designs. But they | basically haven't changed since the sixties. | nullityrofl wrote: | > A fine, but expensive and mechanically complex solution | | I'm not sure I agree that they're mechanically complex. | They're engineering 101. A pump, a heater and a thermostat. | They're rather mechanically simple. | | > Dual boiler machines generally cost thousands even for | small home machines. | | The _cheapest_ Decent is $3500. | | > Commercial dual boiler machines will set you back at | least $10-30k, easily. | | You don't need a $10k-$30k machine to get a competent dual | boiler. If you look at something like a Lelit Bianca, a | dual boiler with preinfusion and flow control while $500 | cheaper than the cheapest Decent, you can pull your first | shot in 10 minutes. A home brewer making espresso on a | Bianca isn't going to notice the difference on a $10k or | $30k machine because at that price point what you're paying | for isn't the ability to pull a shot, it's the ability to | pull thousands of them every day of the year. | | > But they basically haven't changed since the sixties. | | That's true but I argue they don't need to. We don't need | to iterate on everything. Technology doesn't always make | things better. | esperent wrote: | > You don't need a $10k-$30k machine to get a competent | dual boiler | | Commercially, you do (I own a small cafe chain so I can | claim some knowledge here). The Lelit Bianca is a | beautiful home machine but you can't use it commercially | - first of all, due to safety certs (not sure about the | Bianca specifically but most small home machines don't | have commercial certs). But also because it just isn't | built to handle a morning rush of customers. I don't | think you could make more than 10 or so lattes in a row | before it would lose steam. | | > I'm not sure I agree that they're mechanically complex. | They're engineering 101. A pump, a heater and a | thermostat. They're rather mechanically simple | | I think that list is missing a _few_ of the components | that make up an espresso machine :) | | https://66.media.tumblr.com/2a1cfb37655e5ddc1dfa820b15eef | ca9... | | But nonetheless I agree, there are far more complex | machines in regular use. My complaints are more about | warm up time, hard limits on how many coffees you can | serve in a row, and electricity use. | | > That's true but I argue they don't need to. We don't | need to iterate on everything. Technology doesn't always | make things better. | | I partially agree with this but again, from a commercial | perspective I guess I have different goals. Actually at | home I use a Flair 58 manual lever machine and a hand | grinder. Beautifully simple and I could heat water using | a wood fire and make it work. | | But commercially, I want the tech I use to improve. I | want better efficiency, better reliability, and lower | energy use. I don't have the numbers for our yearly | electric bill just from the coffee machine, but it's a | lot and a good chunk of the day it just sits there | reheating water over and over. | | It's the same as saying you should never need to upgrade | your work laptop. Wasn't the 720p screen you had in 2005 | perfectly adequate? Why do you need more than 1gb RAM? | roflyear wrote: | Decent has awful software, and the owner is also kind of a | backwards-thinking stuck up dude, so... | malermeister wrote: | Could you share more details on the owner? | LesZedCB wrote: | most of the bad stuff is interpersonal drama caused by | the fact that John (Decent Owner) is fully committed to | TCL for app and firmware development. | | some prominent community members have rewritten a lot of | the front end using python and JS. | | when disagreements and call outs arose between this group | and the owner, well, access to the company Basecamp is | controlled by the owners. there are big personalities all | around. | | as somebody who enjoys a bit of the popcorn but is | uninvested in the outcome, it's not a big deal as a | consumer of the machine. if you want to hack on the | software, his personality is probably going to affect you | a little more. | | of course, somebody else may step in to give a different | historical account. | mometsi wrote: | No, and I do not even know him, but it irritates me to | hear him everywhere called 'the Decent'. | WastingMyTime89 wrote: | > Decent Espresso showed us that boiler machines for home use | are a dead end, because they have too much thermal mass for | rapid switching between brewing and steaming. | | I will hasard that most espresso machine owners are like me, | just like espresso and never steam. I can count on one hand the | number of time I used my Silvia steam wand in the past five | years. | | I think regular milk drinks are mostly an American thing. | klausa wrote: | I would be very surprised if that was the case; you'd see | much more machines out there that omit the steaming wand | entirely. | | While _I_ mostly drink espressos when making coffee for | myself, I think overall I made more flat whites for my wife | and any friends that come over, then I did shots just for | myself on my machine. | marcosdumay wrote: | If you have two machines with very similar price and | quality, but one was espresso-only, and the other had a | steamer, what do you think the people that only drink | espressos would buy? | | Zero marginal cost features have some very unusual | economics. | dkasper wrote: | Absolutely not. Lattes and cappuccinos were invented in Italy | after all. | mastazi wrote: | > Lattes and cappuccinos were invented in Italy | | This is a commonly held belief, I'm Italian and I would | like to clarify a bit. | | - I have worked at a bar (1) in Italy and more than 90% of | the coffee drinks ordered during any given day were single | shot espressos. Cappuccino orders however were not uncommon | in the morning. | | - Cappuccino was invented in Austria, however it was | popularised in Italy and it still is very popular to this | day. It is consumed only in the first half of the morning, | for the rest of the day Italians prefer to drink | exclusively espresso shots. | | - The drink that is known in the Anglosphere as "latte" | doesn't really exist in Italy except in some touristy | areas, normally, if you ask for a "latte" in an Italian | bar, they'll give you a glass of milk. | | We have however two drinks that are similar to what you | call "latte": | | - Caffe latte, which is similar to the French cafe au lait | but the coffee is made in a moka pot. This is usually | consumed at home. | | - In bars you can order a "latte macchiato" which is | similar to what you call "latte" but the coffee is added at | the end, on top of the milk, and it is much weaker than a | latte (this is reflected by the name "latte macchiato" | which means "stained milk" i.e. all milk with just a dash | of coffee). | | PS Latte macchiato is not to be confused with caffe | macchiato which is what is known internationally simply as | "macchiato" i.e. almost all coffee with just a dash of | milk. | | (1) An Italian "bar" roughly corresponds to what English | speaking people refer to as "cafe" although it will also | serve alcoholic drinks. Actual cafes are not popular in | Italy and they are only found in touristy spots. | cpach wrote: | So far I've only visited Italy once, but your account | rhymes well with what I've read about Italian coffee | culture. | | One thing I'm curious about: | | Is ristretto and lungo popular in Italy? Or is that also | mostly for tourist spots? | boomskats wrote: | In case you're looking for advice: I went from being a daily | HX machine (rocket) user to a Cafelat Robot at the beginning | of the pandemic & haven't looked back. It has zero warm-up | time and I make better espresso with it more consistently | than I ever could with the e61. | | I'm not sure I agree with you about 'most espresso machine | owners', but if you do only care about the spro, I can highly | recommend the manual approach. | ace2358 wrote: | Hello from Australia! Not only are most coffee orders with | milk, Aussies drink a load of milk at home. Like I used to | easily smash a litre of milk a day (cereal, coffee, tea, just | drinking it from the fridge). | | I now don't drink milk at all and have black coffee at home | and out and I am not the norm. | crazygringo wrote: | I use the steam wand every single morning. It's a cappuccino | to start the day, then regular espresso after that. | | Cappuccinos are quite popular at breakfast in Italy, which is | where espresso is from. I don't know what makes you think it | has anything to do with America. | valarauko wrote: | Context of the comment was in modding machines. Are modders | more likely to be American or Italian? | carlob wrote: | These 5k espresso machines (or a DYI project where you | spend the equivalent in time) don't really make sense in | a country where an average salary is 1.5k and the average | coffee is 1. | inasio wrote: | I've been meaning to upgrade from a Breville Bambino, but key | for me is a machine I can turn on and brew coffee right away on | a whim (small footprint would also be nice), but I haven't | found any options between the Brevilles and the Decent. | cjrp wrote: | I have my Gaggia Classic connected to a smart plug. Okay, | it's not _instant_, but I can decide I want a coffee, turn on | the machine from my phone and it'll be heated by the time I | go and make it. | inasio wrote: | I know this is how many people do it, it strikes me as | surprising that you don't need this compromise at the very | low end (Breville Bambino), nor at the high end (Decent), | but there's nothing in between | roflyear wrote: | Have you seen: https://meticuloushome.com/ seems to be what | you're looking for. Not on market yet. | boomskats wrote: | Not for another couple of days! | naet wrote: | I've been wanting an Espresso machine recently but it seems like | they're a lot more expensive than I hoped for a decent one. I was | spoiled by the one my Italian American parents had that was very | nice but probably cost them a pretty penny to buy. It was a | beautiful old metal machine with none of the digital bells and | whistles that seem to plague the newer machines. | | Sometimes I use my moka pot which isn't the same but still | produces very nice coffee when used right. | binarymax wrote: | We were given a Capresso 117.05 as a gift and it's a really | great entry level espresso machine for the price (which I just | looked up). | | I was actually surprised how well it worked, even with a cheap | palm grinder. | stouset wrote: | Yeah, it's definitely not cheap to get into home espresso if | you want any level of control and consistency to the process. | | I got a Bambino Plus, which I'm generally happy with. There are | some flaws, but for "only" $500 it's a pretty competitive | machine for my use-case. Unfortunately that's where the costs | _begin_ , not end. Generally "necessary" upgrades include a | non-pressurized filter basket ($20), a bottomless portafilter | so you can observe your pulls and make adjustments ($50), and a | coffee distributor which will help significantly with | consistent pulls on a consumer-grade machine ($50). You'll also | need a scale ($50). | | And now you need an espresso-capable grinder. A lot of people | use a Baratza Encore ($150), but the stepped grind-size | adjustments can render it impossible to dial in correctly. For | a continuous-adjustment grinder you're talking at least $500. | There are very good hand grinders you could use instead for | $100-$200, but grinding espresso shots by hand every time gets | old fast. | | All in all with taxes, you're talking a _minimum_ of around | $750 for a bare-bones setup that will have a lot of frustration | and difficultly with consistency to about $1,250 for a more | recommended setup that will have you repeatedly pulling decent | shots. | | Obviously I'm being a bit loose with the definition of "bare- | bones", as plenty of people are happy with a Bambino ($350) and | a cheap grinder ($50). But this is what I think would be the | definition someone who prefers third-wave specialty coffee | would use as a competitive alternative to going to their local | coffee shop. | fatnoah wrote: | FWIW, I have a fancier machine, but don't have any of that | optional equipment. I have a decent and consistent burr | grinder, but other than that my optional equipment is the | tamper and a toothpick for distribution. This is mostly | because the biggest variable I seem to deal with is bean | quality and age, and the only way I've really been able to | get consistent results is purely by feel based on how the | beans look in the filter basket after grinding and a quick | stir with the toothpick. The result is that I generally get | the shot spot-on about 9/10 times. As for the 10th, an iffy | shot can be turned into a decent latte. ;) | | In any case, I think all of the extra equipment definitely | helps with consistency, but I think one can get good results | with practice without all of the extras. At the very least, | one could work their way up to that point. | stouset wrote: | Surely you have a scale :) And if you have a fancier | machine, I'm guessing you have a non-pressurized filter | basket as well. At that point you're (I think) only | skipping the distributor and the bottomless portafilter. | anon84873628 wrote: | FWIW I think the Flair brand offers the best price performance | for entry level espresso. It takes more practice to get a | consistent shot, but it can definitely make good coffee. There | are now many good hand grinders that can do espresso grind for | less than $200. Then you just need a kettle. | | The Wacoco products also make a solid shot, but they are even | more inconvenient for home use. | klausa wrote: | Of all the things that I could possibly think of "making a DYI | version of would be fun", a machine that has ~0.5-1.5 liters of | boiling water at significant pressures is on the very very very | end. | | Hats off to you if you feel comfortable with that, but I wouldn't | want to be in the same _room_ as that thing. | hn_throwaway_99 wrote: | Water under significant pressure is not really that big of a | deal. It is largely incompressible, so if there is a leak, it | just, well, leaks. Sure, it can spray, but even then I've been | hit with hot water from my espresso machine and while it was | temporarily painful it didn't burn me. | | Air or steam, on the other hand, is a different story - steam | boilers obviously can fail explosively. The pictures of the | machine makes it look like it has a steam wand but I think | that's just because he salvaged an old boiler - I don't think | he's actually bringing up the temperature in the boiler high | enough to make it a steam boiler. | quijoteuniv wrote: | What kind of pressure are we taking about? This project would | definetely benefit with chating with a barista and understanding | the principle of brewing a coffe shot, or working/getting | experience with a professional machine. Personally i think the | best you can get at home (unless you can afford a pro machine) is | aeropress. Dead serious | pmarcelll wrote: | Pressure is not an issue since a vibratory pump in the most | basic espresso machine can produce 15 bar of pressure quite | easily. In fact, manufacturers have to put an overpressure | valve in their machines to limit maximum pressure to the | optimal 9 bar. | | Also, this project is about sophisticated temperature and | pressure/flow control, something even many/most professional | machines simply can't do. So I really don't think the person | who built this machine lacks experience in brewing coffee. | andrewxdiamond wrote: | Pressure is resistance to flow. In the aeropress, the coffee | and the plastic filter screen resist flow and thus create | pressure. | | Not very much pressure, but there is pressure | qbasic_forever wrote: | Espresso is typically made with 9 bar of pressure. | | An aeropress doesn't actually generate any pressure. It just | moves a column of water through a puck of coffee like a | percolator. You can buy some special add-ons for the aeropress | that cause it to build pressure but it's really just for | generating more foamy/crema brew and not getting a proper | espresso shot out of it. All that said the aeropress is still | awesome and a great way to brew coffee, it's just not going to | replicate espresso shots. | BlandDuck wrote: | About the Aeropress, I guess the question is: When I press it | down (in my case, using the elbow for added pressure) how | many bars can a typical user reach? | anon84873628 wrote: | Maybe 1 bar. You need a big lever or pump to get more than | that. Check out the Flair or Wacoco brands if you want | entry level manual espresso. | DoubleFree wrote: | Let's do a little calculation. For an upper bound, let's | say you press your full weight onto it and the coffee | grounds' resistance is not the limiting factor. That's | maybe 90kg, times the acceleration of gravity, for about | 900 newtons. That force is applied to a pi*(30mm)^2 or | ~3^-3 m^2 area. That gives us a pressure of 900/3e-3 = 3e5 | Pa or 3 bars. | valarauko wrote: | Hoffmann measured this with a pressure sensor modded | aeropress - most typical brews would not exceed half a | bar. | klausa wrote: | Getting over 1 bar gets you to a spray of coffee that | sprays everywhere: https://youtu.be/Qz_GZpzpst4?t=500 | valarauko wrote: | James Hoffmann answered this with a modded aeropress with a | pressure sensor: a typical aeropress brew is in the range | of half a bar. The max he could achieve was 1.5 bars, but | like he says, no one brews like that. He also found | anything past 0.5 bars began to taste awful. | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBXm8fCWdo8 | quijoteuniv wrote: | No. The aim of the aeropress is good extraction , not | foam/cream. And i doubt you get 9 bars from that thing in the | photo. Therefore i suggest an aeropress (and learn about | extraction and taste) instead of building a machine without | understanding the principle of brewing a shot. For which you | need a ceramic grinder by the way. But do not get me wrong, i | am all for open source and building things. It might not be | about coffee though. | anon84873628 wrote: | What? The way you are responding to qbasic doesn't make | sense. | | Their point was simply that the high pressure attachment | only creates the superficial appearance of crema, not | actual espresso. | klausa wrote: | Almost nobody is using ceramic burrs. All the top grinders | you see in people's homes and most cafes will be using | steel burrs. | | Your EK43's, Mythos Ones, EG-1s etc have steel burrs. | falsenapkin wrote: | How do you know this person hasn't had plenty of relevant | experience? And no hard disagree on aeropress. You can make | great espresso at the correct temperature/pressure with non-pro | machines. I make a few a week with a Flair Pro 2 and they're | very consistent. Like <$700 for lever+grinder+kettle. I also | have an aeropress and it's fine but they make different drinks. | ladberg wrote: | Hah, I clicked expecting an open source version of Apple's on- | device ML runtime. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-03-27 23:00 UTC)