[HN Gopher] Iceland long term visa for remote workers
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Iceland long term visa for remote workers
        
       Author : simonebrunozzi
       Score  : 155 points
       Date   : 2023-03-28 15:32 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (island.is)
 (TXT) w3m dump (island.is)
        
       | diego_moita wrote:
       | Iceland? Ouch!
       | 
       | People are lovely and awesome but the place is barren, cold,
       | windy and desolated.
       | 
       | I'd take a lot of places in southern Europe, instead.
        
       | connectsnk wrote:
       | I am afraid I will get downvoted for this heavily. But in my
       | experience Iceland (just like its name) is a desert with no
       | vegetation and consequently has minimum biodiversity.
       | 
       | No matter what is the carrot being hung, I would not wish to be
       | in this land.
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_f90pXw5sQ
        
         | seanhunter wrote:
         | I could not disagree more. I absolutely love Iceland and would
         | love to return. I cannot recommend it strongly enough. My
         | experience was beautiful scenery (with plenty of vegetation),
         | stunning glaciers and hot springs etc, and very friendly and
         | welcoming people.
        
           | atoav wrote:
           | But very high beer prices.
        
         | darknavi wrote:
         | I think it's really just a matter of opinion.
         | 
         | Would I like to live there forever? No way. Would I work
         | remotely there for 3-6 months to explore a unique,bio diverse
         | island? Hell yea!
        
           | Reubachi wrote:
           | As OP said, iceland is about as un biodiverse as it gets.
           | I've been a few times and it's as close to the moon as
           | possible. That said it is beautiful and kind of feels
           | like....you're on a giant desert island surrounded by
           | mountains that's very cold, and very expensive.
        
             | sidewndr46 wrote:
             | My secondhand understanding of Iceland is that the entire
             | island is grazed by herds of domesticated animals. It's
             | like a small, cold, remote version of Texas.
        
             | throwaway1777 wrote:
             | Well not quite, Antarctica is a bit closer.
        
         | paul7986 wrote:
         | Have you visited it's such a cool/unique place and it's really
         | not crazy cold there (20 to 45 F in the winter on average). The
         | wind is intense, but the cold is not like something like
         | Fairbanks, Alaska.
         | 
         | Things I love about Iceland compared to the US
         | 
         | - Almost zero crime
         | 
         | - Police, I only saw three cars in nine days
         | 
         | - No one can carry a gun
         | 
         | - All citizens (free healthcare) well paid compared to US
         | 
         | - Hot water from a faucet comes directly from the ground
         | 
         | - Geothermal govt run bathhouses in each neighborhood for after
         | work socializing.
         | 
         | - Hike to an active volcano or to a hot river to bathe in
         | 
         | - Beautiful outdoor scenery
         | 
         | - The Northern Lights
         | 
         | One negative is it's expensive i.e. a large pizza from a
         | pizzeria here in the states will run you $12 to $15 while there
         | it's $21 to $25.
        
           | runarberg wrote:
           | Note that it is not this rosie in reality. Iceland has issues
           | like any other places:
           | 
           | - There are still crimes, particularly against women during
           | the nightlife which isn't investigated and reported in crime
           | statistics.
           | 
           | - Police just acquired permission from the minister of
           | justice to carry stun guns. There are recent cases of racial
           | profiling which are particularly worrysom
           | 
           | - Gun laws are increasingly un-enforced and gun crimes are on
           | the rise. Iceland has one of the largest per capita gun
           | ownership in Europe.
           | 
           | - The healthcare system is increasingly underfunded, wait
           | lists for healthcare are getting longer. A recent immigration
           | bill denies health care to asylum seekers.
           | 
           | - Hot water is a plenty so this is mostly true.
           | 
           | - The swimming pools are amazing places to socialize and
           | still relatively cheap... So this is also true
           | 
           | - The volcano has stopped erupting, this last one was indeed
           | very approachable. More likely volcanoes form way in the
           | highlands and are not approachable unless you can charter a
           | plain or a helicopter.
           | 
           | - The outdoor scenery is relative. I much more favor the
           | trees in the pacific north west where I live now over the
           | mossy lava-fields where I grew up.
           | 
           | - The northern lights are cool but light pollution is a
           | problem in and around the city or any town and village.
        
             | paul7986 wrote:
             | Compared to the US there is barely is any crime!
             | 
             | There are no school shootings yet here there's almost one a
             | day it seems.
             | 
             | Seemed as safe as Norway where moms leave their babies out
             | in their carriages bundled up for fresh air while they go
             | into their house to clean. A mom who did that here would be
             | possibly arrested
             | 
             | So Iceland is paradise if you are a tired of seeing all the
             | crime in America. I didn't know it was that bad here til my
             | dates (locals) I met and talked with at one of the
             | neighborhood family bathhouses pointed it out. How scared
             | they are of going to the US. Which I replied it's not that
             | bad not everyone has a gun yet once I was home I had a
             | crazy gunman who shot police hiding in the woods of my
             | backyard and we were told to shelter in place. Sure that's
             | not happening in Iceland cause even and only police only
             | have stun guns!
        
           | haliskerbas wrote:
           | where in the states? In LA, NY or SF, the Iceland price seems
           | pretty on par for a large pizza
        
             | paul7986 wrote:
             | Baltimore city and surrounding counties.
             | 
             | Iceland is one the more expensive European cities for food
             | at least.
        
         | micromacrofoot wrote:
         | Do you normally decide where to travel based on the
         | destinations biodiversity?
        
         | Quarrelsome wrote:
         | > But in my experience Iceland (just like its name) is a desert
         | with no vegetation and consequently has minimum biodiversity.
         | 
         | Yes, although don't let the bus out from Keflavik fool you, the
         | south west tip of the island is lava flats and it does look a
         | bit like the moon. The rest of the country is a lot more
         | interesting than that.
         | 
         | However you _never_ go to Iceland for the biodiversity, same
         | way you don't go to Bangladesh for the diarrhoea. You go for
         | the pristine wilderness, the ice and glaciers, the volcanism,
         | the aurora borealis, the perma-day in the summer, the people
         | (they're amazing!), the partying, the new year celebration
         | (most households fire a firework at 00:00) or the language
         | which is as close to ancient norse as you can get.
         | 
         | Also what is unique to Iceland is its size and culture, it is
         | very Anglosphere, and a curious blend of European and American
         | in culture (due to the legacy of the US base) Reykjavik has
         | elements of both city and village life in a single spot and its
         | an interesting test bed for services or products as a
         | consequence.
        
       | BigCryo wrote:
       | Iceland is too expensive I would imagine.. go Latin America or
       | Southeast Asia, problem is that it's hard to get to stay there
       | long-term unless you go through the bureaucracy.. some expats
       | have speculated for years that America uses its influence
       | overseas to prevent Americans from moving overseas permanently to
       | cheap Nations like the third world
        
         | IntelMiner wrote:
         | Reminded me of an ancient King of the Hill joke
         | 
         | "Hank and I used to go to Mexico every time they devalued the
         | peso!"
         | 
         | "Yeah, that got old fast..."
        
         | mrleinad wrote:
         | I'm curious. What prevents an American from living in Argentina
         | long term? I believe the country is quite friendly in terms of
         | long term visitors. Have you done some research on that?
        
           | Aachen wrote:
           | That they don't like you to get a salary in USD and the Peso
           | has crazy inflation, would be one consideration. But then
           | I've heard Buenos Aires can be quite like any rich country
           | city (probably for most people here: normal city) and life's
           | definitely a lot cheaper there so it might be worth it
        
           | BigCryo wrote:
           | The speculation says that America uses its power to coerce
           | cheap Nations to throw up bureaucratic obstacles and
           | restrictions that prevent Americans from moving overseas
           | easily.. America protects this financial capital for moving
           | overseas but it also protects social capital for moving
           | overseas by keeping Americans here and stopping them from
           | taking their savings and moving to cheap countries and
           | therefore robbing America of social capital... Let me be
           | specific.. it would financially benefit third world countries
           | to allow Americans with money to move in easily and without
           | restrictions without Visa time limits and so forth.. and when
           | I say any American with money I mean any person who's had a
           | job and worked and saved the money from the job... I'm not
           | talking about rich people ...
           | 
           | the idea is that America uses its power against the third
           | world Nations to coerce them to throw up restrictions to
           | moving easily overseas
        
             | kylehotchkiss wrote:
             | No, the "bureaucratic obstacles" are often what people
             | living with these countries deal with on a normal basis.
             | The only thing you're adding to that is being on a visa
             | instead of a citizenship.
             | 
             | Don't forget many third world countries are former colonies
             | of western countries and don't necessarily want large
             | amounts of westerns residing there again.
             | 
             | > it would financially benefit third world countries to
             | allow Americans with money to move in easily and without
             | restrictions without Visa time limits and so fort
             | 
             | It financially benefits third world countries when
             | Americans with money _try_ to move in. Via bribery etc.
             | Also many of these countries have high end hotels where
             | they can get the same money from somebody who stays a week
             | or two and leaves and never makes a fuss about local
             | issues!
             | 
             | You should see what "bureaucratic obstacles" exist for
             | people in third world countries that want to visit USA. The
             | US tourist visa has no publically-known requirements beyond
             | "shows intent to return home after trip". This is quite
             | arbitrary and the visa officers at embassies abroad are
             | given the final say in visa issuance. (To be fair, if there
             | were bank balance requirements, people would both photoshop
             | their statements and ask for friends/family to borrow the
             | amount to pad their account before their visa interview).
             | If you are rejected, they only tell you to "try again
             | later" without ever telling you the reason of rejection.
             | People who can afford to visit relatives and intend on
             | returning at the end of their trip will have their visa
             | applications denied on a regular basis. There's just so
             | many applicants to be more through.
        
             | jrmg wrote:
             | The USA does this in secret? That does not seem plausible.
             | Think of the coordination required.
        
             | carlosjobim wrote:
             | It makes much sense, considering that European emigrants to
             | America were the force that conquered Europe during WWII.
             | Maybe the American government doesn't want that to happen
             | to them.
        
             | yourapostasy wrote:
             | If that was true, wouldn't countries that are hostile
             | towards the US like North Korea, Iran, Russia, Cuba, _etc._
             | be enacting visa regimes to undermine the US?
             | 
             | Having dealt with various nations' bureaucracies, I'm more
             | inclined to believe most simply haven't been convinced it
             | is worth their administrative overhead trouble to capture
             | the financial benefits of welcoming digital nomads for
             | longer stays. They're quite well aware digital nomads exist
             | and many desire longer stays. It is still considered a
             | pretty niche population compared to regular tourism and
             | likely not worth catering to yet. With RTO spreading, it
             | likely will remain so until WFM becomes more mainstream in
             | the future.
        
         | slaw wrote:
         | Latin America and Southeast Asia are opposite in terms for long
         | term stay. You can stay easily up to 180 days in Latin America,
         | not to in SE Asia.
        
       | beardedman wrote:
       | ...long term visa for high earning remote workers...
        
       | FpUser wrote:
       | >"it is not your intention to settle in Iceland"
       | 
       | I assume one can be working remotely and at the same time
       | applying for permanent residence. What is the problem with that?
        
         | meheleventyone wrote:
         | You'd need a different visa presumably.
        
       | mataug wrote:
       | Having visited Iceland previously, I'd love to work there over
       | the summer.
       | 
       | > you can show a foreign income of ISK 1,000,000 per month or ISK
       | 1,300,000 if you also apply for a spouse or cohabiting partner.
       | 
       | > you do not need a visa to enter the Schengen area
       | 
       | Unfortunately this ^ disqualifies me, despite meeting the income
       | requirements, since I need a visa to enter the Schengen region.
       | This seems to be an odd requirement, they are already issuing a
       | visa, why require people to have powerful passports as well ?
        
         | anon98356 wrote:
         | Because Iceland is a member of the Schengen zone. It's possible
         | to travel between countries in the Schengen area without going
         | through border control (although I don't know about the
         | specifics of travelling to/from Iceland).
        
           | itslennysfault wrote:
           | I traveled from US to Iceland to France without knowing this
           | and honestly thought I somehow bypassed customs when I got to
           | France. So, this is correct you can go from Iceland to other
           | Schengen zone countries without any checks (I didn't show my
           | passport or do customs at all)
        
           | mataug wrote:
           | That was part of my earlier point, they are already issuing a
           | visa, and a visa to Iceland is a Schengen Visa. This seems to
           | imply that they only want nationals from certain countries.
           | 
           | Contrast this with Spain's digital nomad program, where they
           | don't require someone to have a powerful passport, all they
           | seem to care about is having a job outside spain.
           | 
           | https://prie.comercio.gob.es/en-
           | us/paginas/teletrabajadores-...
        
         | jck wrote:
         | This is essentially just a way for people from the Americas to
         | legally work from Iceland for a few months.
        
           | unsupp0rted wrote:
           | Or Australians... or Malaysians... or Japanese...
        
             | iso1631 wrote:
             | Or Brits, presumably just the 75% that did not vote to
             | reduce their right to live and work in dozens of countries
        
               | throwaway049 wrote:
               | Iceland is not in the EU either.
        
               | iso1631 wrote:
               | Iceland is in the EEA meaning EU citizens can work there
               | without a permit for upto 3 months
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | ilrwbwrkhv wrote:
         | No third world countries.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | scottyah wrote:
           | Iceland is expensive, it would be very unkind to let someone
           | live there for an extended time yet not be able to enjoy a
           | good quality of life.
        
             | ecedeno wrote:
             | They already have an income requirement. How does this
             | contribute to better enjoying a good quality of life?
        
             | Aachen wrote:
             | Also discussed in this subthread
             | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35344437. My take
             | (having been there two weeks and done all the tours and
             | seen all the things) is that you'd need (less than?) half
             | of that income requirement for a normal comfort level that
             | I also have in my home country (currently Germany).
             | 
             | It's not a cheap country but 7k/month as "minimum income"
             | is not a requirement out of necessity or kindness.
        
           | rauljordan2020 wrote:
           | I'm from Honduras and don't need a Schengen visa. Many other
           | poor countries can also get in without one
        
             | narag wrote:
             | Probably the reason is more political and cultural than
             | economic.
             | 
             | FWIW, the origin of "third world" is political, being the
             | NATO and the Warsaw Pact countries the first and second.
             | The poverty implication came later.
             | 
             | Is a visa needed to enter Spain from any Spanish-speaking
             | country? (Spain is in Schengen)
        
               | cromulent wrote:
               | Yeah, Finland and Switzerland are 3rd world countries, in
               | the Schengen, but not developing countries.
        
           | jersak wrote:
           | Guess I'm the exception to this rule, then. Although I don't
           | live in my home country anymore, my third world country
           | passport is allowed.
        
           | sabellito wrote:
           | You are misinformed, the list is mixed:
           | 
           | https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/who-needs-schengen-visa/
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | vegardx wrote:
         | I think it's because Iceland can't issue long-term visas due to
         | the Schengen-agreement, only short term tourist visa or full
         | residency.
         | 
         | Contrary to popular belief, at least within the Schengen-area,
         | it's hard to immigrate into the Schengen-area from the outside.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | realworldperson wrote:
         | [dead]
        
         | yohannparis wrote:
         | that's CAD 10k per month, not pocket changes indeed.
        
       | r00f wrote:
       | I have always been blown away by money requirements for such
       | visas, in many countries. Show monthly income of 1000000 ISK.
       | Over 7k USD. Why?
       | 
       | I used to live in Dubai, which is considered pretty expensive
       | place, and never spent over 2500 per month, despite dining out
       | almost all the time. Maybe 3000 if I needed some purchases like
       | clothing or hobbies stuff. I get it, Numbeo says Iceland is 13%
       | more expensive, but 7k? What exactly kind of lifestyle are they
       | expecting from humble nomad?
       | 
       | Not all nomads work remotely for FAANG. Some live happy nomad
       | life with much lower income.
        
         | sidewndr46 wrote:
         | Why would a tiny exclusive island ever want anyone other than
         | high income individuals to move there?
         | 
         | If it weren't the fact that US cities cannot restrict the free
         | migration of individuals, almost all of them would ban anyone
         | moving there who didn't make above the average income for the
         | area. Hawaii's last Republic governor tried every possible step
         | to kick out the Marshallese, which is fucking hilarious
         | considering how few of them there are globally.
         | 
         | If it wasn't for the US constitution you'd have giant slums in
         | the interstitial space between cities, with a few zones
         | stylized after the Jewish Autonomous Oblast here and there as
         | well.
        
         | starik36 wrote:
         | > Over 7k USD.
         | 
         | I don't think you understand how ridiculously expensive Iceland
         | is. Practically everything has to be shipped/flown in.
         | 
         | Just to give you an idea, a small completely unremarkable
         | burger at a fast food place will be around $20-25. It will not
         | make you full.
         | 
         | 7K a month is realistic. Our vacation was still fantastic
         | despite the cost.
        
           | Aachen wrote:
           | That's realistic if you are there as a tourist who wants the
           | premium experience on everything.
           | 
           | Staying in hotels and eating out daily, we didn't spend 7k
           | when extrapolating our two weeks to a month. Heck, it's still
           | below 7k if you include all one-time purchases like the way
           | there and back, clothing, new expensive hiking boots, etc.
           | I've got a problem with most waterproof fabrics so I didn't
           | have a raincoat, but reading about Iceland, I figured it's
           | worth finding one that works for me, so that's another
           | purchase I count towards my Iceland expenses. All in all
           | still below 7k after extrapolation. (Edit: oh and I forgot
           | that this is for 2 persons. You can't divide by two of
           | course, but some correction factor should be applied.)
           | 
           | I fully agree with anyone saying Iceland is expensive, but if
           | you stay in an actual apartment instead of hotels, don't do a
           | number of guided tours every month, don't rent a vehicle for
           | the whole time you're there (and drive around, though fuel
           | was a surprisingly small part of the final expenses), you'll
           | definitely not need 7k per month.
        
             | lazyasciiart wrote:
             | They have absolutely no interest in sponsoring visitors.
             | This visa program is intended to bring in well-off
             | professionals who will have plenty of cash to live a
             | comfortable lifestyle and cover a disastrous broken leg or
             | two and still be able to fly back home if they lose their
             | job. That $7k is before taxes, before retirement savings,
             | before health insurance, before your assumed flight home
             | once every month or two...
        
         | seanhunter wrote:
         | > Show monthly income of 1000000 ISK. Over 7k USD. Why?
         | 
         | I'm not familiar with the reasoning for Iceland specifically
         | but in another country (Switzerland) I was in the position of
         | having to apply for long-term work visas for myself and some of
         | my employees. There they justified the high income requirement
         | because they wanted to know you weren't going to bring in cheap
         | foreign labour and thereby undercut local wages. So you had to
         | show that the wages were high in absolute terms and that you
         | weren't paying less than the national average.
        
           | dagurp wrote:
           | Expect to spend a third of that on rent
        
         | Pmop wrote:
         | Isn't Iceland inhabited by like 340k people? Maybe they're
         | testing the waters or trying to limit how many people end up
         | moving there.
         | 
         | Overall I agree. DNs would use Portugal's D7 to move in (in an
         | exception of what the visa was originally intended to), but
         | then Portugal introduced a DN visa which now requires a much
         | higher income than what D7 requires, I think 4x times more than
         | D7.
        
           | MrDresden wrote:
           | Iceland is in Schengen. Effectively the whole of Europe could
           | move here tomorrow if they wanted. This is not due to
           | immigration control.
        
             | foldr wrote:
             | It's in the EEA, more to the point.
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | EduardoBautista wrote:
           | D7 was minimum wage, if I recall correctly, around 800 euros
           | per month. I don't think 4x minimum wage is at all
           | unreasonable if it makes the process smoother, since they
           | make the D7 application process as horrible as possible.
           | 
           | I had an awful experience applying for D7, so I am now
           | happily living in Dubai instead which has the best residency
           | process I have seen for ANY country.
        
         | triceratops wrote:
         | They want rich nomads who will spend lots of money in the local
         | economy.
        
         | slaw wrote:
         | Only high earners are welcomed.
        
         | ashconnor wrote:
         | Your FAANG job probably wouldn't allow you to work from Iceland
         | anyway.
         | 
         | Still the requirements are less strict than Thailand's remote
         | work visa [0] but that lasts for 5 years renewable for another
         | 5.
         | 
         | In Thailand's case the existence of a work-from-Thailand visa
         | also clarifies that working remotely on other visas (Tourist,
         | Non-O, Non-B) is not permitted.
         | 
         | [0] - https://kpmg.com/th/en/home/insights/2022/11/legal-news-
         | flas...
        
         | zerr wrote:
         | Seems like a lawful way to say "North Americans Only".
        
           | noodlesUK wrote:
           | Basically because you already need to have visa free entry to
           | Schengen (and if you're an EEA/CH citizen you can already
           | move there) this is only available to North Americans,
           | Aussies/Kiwis, and other rich countries like Japan, as well
           | as us Brits mourning our FOM.
        
         | whichfawkes wrote:
         | Well, of course they're going to set the requirement high
         | enough that they can be confident you'll survive without them
         | needing to pay to deport you.
         | 
         | Beyond that though, they want you to spend your money in
         | Iceland - why else?
         | 
         | Presumably you aren't paying any income tax. So the only
         | advantage to letting you into the country is that you'll spend
         | money on goods and services.
        
         | mytailorisrich wrote:
         | They want to attract high value individuals because they are
         | doing this to benefit their country and economy while limiting
         | number of people, not to make foreigners happy.
        
         | MrDresden wrote:
         | Local tech worker in Iceland, and this is the going rate for a
         | midrange software worker.
         | 
         | Wages here have grown ~25% (for the whole country) over the
         | last ~4 years (if my memory from the reporting on this is
         | correct).
         | 
         | Everything has to be imported, and what little that isn't is
         | heavily reliant on imported goods.
         | 
         | Living here is mightily expensive.
         | 
         | Ofcourse you could live more frugally, and obviously most here
         | do. Tech workers here are in the top income bracket like in
         | most other places.
         | 
         | Not sure why digital nomad visas should have lower restrictions
         | though. We want foreigners that come here and spend their
         | money. No need to make it easier for the frugal tourist to come
         | here for longer.
        
       | xwdv wrote:
       | We shipped our 4x4 to Iceland and went off roading for several
       | months while working remotely. Truly an incredible lifetime
       | experience that I would recommend to anyone if they love nature.
       | Unfortunately I have never really been able to see the beauty of
       | my urban surroundings again ever since spending all that time in
       | Iceland.
        
         | runarberg wrote:
         | Please don't do that.
         | 
         | Icelandic flora is very vulnerable and driving off roads will
         | cause sever damage that will last for decades. It is highly
         | illegal to drive off roads except for glaciers and beaches. In
         | fact there is a huge social stigma against off road driving.
         | Tourists that get caught regularly get ridiculed on national
         | television, and rightly so.
        
           | biftek wrote:
           | I assumed he meant driving on the F roads
        
           | xwdv wrote:
           | We're not "tourists", we're expeditionists, and Iceland has
           | incredible off-road trails to see. Ridiculous.
        
             | runarberg wrote:
             | * * *
        
       | bmelton wrote:
       | Took a vacation to Iceland for this past new year's, and am
       | thrilled to hear any news that might allow me to stay there for
       | longer. When I left Iceland, it felt very much like I was leaving
       | a fairy tale.
       | 
       | I was delighted by the whales off the coast, and the northern
       | lights felt like a spiritual event, but (at least according to
       | lore) the Vikings invented the modern new year celebration by
       | considering it a good enough time for everyone to dispose of
       | their old flares and replace them with new, and so new year's in
       | Iceland was better than the greatest fireworks show I'd ever
       | witnessed, despite exactly 0% of the fireworks having been
       | municipally provided. It felt like every member of every home had
       | spent their life savings on fireworks and were setting them all
       | off for hours. Impossible to describe, but here's some drone
       | footage (not mine) that captures about 10 minutes of what went on
       | for hours, and the experience from the city center on the ground
       | was even more encompassing.
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAnQ7ECC2LA&t=245s
        
         | exar0815 wrote:
         | Been on Iceland on NY21/22 as well, NYE from the Perlan was
         | absolutely mindnumbing. Vik was absolutely beautiful. Polar
         | Lights left me completely speechless.
         | 
         | Most beautiful country in the world. Even though the winter was
         | harsh. Perfect if you love photography, the whole day Golden
         | Hour basically.
        
         | mixmastamyk wrote:
         | What is the temp on a winter night? I once spent NYE in NYC and
         | froze my butt off... much preferred my time in Rio DJ. :-D
         | Would love to try Iceland in the summer.
        
           | bmelton wrote:
           | Depends on the night, obviously, but "very cold" is a safe
           | assertion.
           | 
           | The first day there I had a hard time, thinking that my
           | casual cold-weather gear would keep me comfortable was a
           | mistake I learned the hard way tracking the northern lights
           | on a mountaintop at 2 in the morning on the coldest night
           | they'd had in 50 years.
           | 
           | But, the next day I picked up a pair of (expensive)
           | sweatpants to act as a third layer, and I was just fine.
           | Toasty enough that at night times I'd casually take off a hat
           | or some gloves.
           | 
           | If you absolutely hate cold weather, maybe check it out in
           | summer time. If you're willing to layer (and not just throw
           | on dumb layers like I did) then it's totally manageable.
           | 
           | I found the magic combo to be:                 * Thermalsilk
           | top and bottom base layer       * An intermediate layer for
           | very cold nights (https://www.icewear.is/us/fodurland-wool-
           | underwear-baselayer)       * I got away with those two and a
           | pair of Amazon Basics chinos, but a hard shell outer layer is
           | probably smarter if you're trekking through snow
           | 
           | Otherwise, normal layering rules apply. Have a scarf and
           | gloves (ideally, with liners) and a good hat, then
           | Thermalsilk and a winter coat were all I needed, but I would
           | often have a niceish sweatshirt layered in there as we often
           | had dinner plans and I didn't want to violate any dress-code
           | norms.
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | Pretty similar to NYC in winter (because Gulf Stream). But
           | then, I don't consider NYC especially cold for the most part;
           | it's basically mid-Atlantic relative to New England much less
           | northern Midwest.
        
             | mixmastamyk wrote:
             | Was a bit colder than normal now that I think of it. Big
             | jacket wasn't enough because the legs got cold without long
             | undies.
        
         | danudey wrote:
         | Iceland was absolutely fantastic. Iceland Air started doing
         | direct flights from Vancouver and my wife and I got on the
         | inaugural flight, despite her being several uncomfortable
         | months pregnant.
         | 
         | Some highlights:
         | 
         | * We saw geysir, the first geyser known to modern Europeans and
         | the source of the name "geyser" [0]
         | 
         | * We went inside of a volcano [1]
         | 
         | * We did _not_ get fooled by Icelandic polar bears [2]
         | 
         | * We (well, I) ate an average of two hot dogs per day [3]
         | 
         | * We saw a viking home which they unearthed during construction
         | and then built a museum around [4]
         | 
         | * We boiled ourselves like happy lobsters [5]
         | 
         | * We had te og kaffi, which smelled and tasted like the best
         | cafe I'd been to in years [6]
         | 
         | We went in April and were really glad we'd bought sleeping
         | masks for the flight as the midnight sun did throw us for a
         | loop. We were walking down the street one day wondering why all
         | the stores were closed already, then saw a group of young women
         | in glittery dresses and platform heels walking down the street.
         | Checked my phone and it was 11 PM on a Saturday. Oh, okay,
         | clubbing. Right, it's bedtime. Okay.
         | 
         | When we got back from Iceland, my wife was starting a new
         | position at her company where she had to show up at 6:30 AM, so
         | we ended up keeping the same sleep schedule and getting up at
         | 3:30 every morning to have breakfast and commute together.
         | Working in tech meant I had about six hours alone in the office
         | before anyone else really showed up, which was quite peaceful.
         | 
         | Highly recommend Iceland, even if you don't go for New Year's!
         | 
         | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geysir
         | 
         | [1] https://insidethevolcano.com/
         | 
         | [2] https://fooledbyiceland.tumblr.com/
         | 
         | [3] https://theculturetrip.com/europe/iceland/articles/how-
         | this-...
         | 
         | [4] https://reykjavikcitymuseum.is/the-settlement-
         | exhibition/exh...
         | 
         | [5] https://www.bluelagoon.com/
         | 
         | [6] https://goo.gl/maps/QCDLW6DPyLSeKumF9
        
           | amatecha wrote:
           | Nice, glad to hear you went to Iceland as well! I went in
           | 2020, not sure when the YVR<->KEF direct flights started
           | though! We just snuck in before COVID got crazy, and in fact
           | our flight home got canceled the night before we were due to
           | leave -- ended up getting booked a replacement flight through
           | LHR though it required a bunch of stressful calls to Iceland
           | Air.. that was an interesting finale to the trip. On the
           | upside, all tourist attractions were basically empty and we
           | had an even more "isolated" and otherworldly experience than
           | planned! A+++ would visit Iceland at the start of a pandemic
           | again :)
        
           | bmelton wrote:
           | I did not go inside of a volcano, but did climb a glacier.
           | Otherwise, while I thought the hot dogs were pretty neat, the
           | wife didn't care for them, so we stuck to the one and then
           | engaged in more of their fine dining options.
           | 
           | Dill and Ox were phenomenal. One of them has a Michelin star,
           | but I can't remember which. Kol was also pretty great.
           | Otherwise, it was great snacking on stupid gift-shop snacks
           | like smoked salmon and capers as a dramatic contrast to the
           | typical American gift shop snacks of corn chips.
           | 
           | The settlement exhibition we saw as part of a walking tour,
           | and absolutely adored, but somewhat overshadowed by the
           | "Bureaucrat" statue across the street from it[1].
           | 
           | Didn't have te og kaffi, but did enjoy Skyr (which is a
           | cheese that you can DRINK).
           | 
           | On the whole, I enjoyed it more than I could have thought
           | possible. You mentioned Iceland Air, and one thing I thought
           | was really smart was that they've positioned themselves as a
           | destination layover going from North America to Europe. We
           | usually travel to Europe for vacations, but this time we
           | "punted" and chose Iceland as our preferred accommodations in
           | London were unavailable, and now I am keen to make a
           | tradition of stopping over in Iceland everywhere I can.
           | 
           | [1] https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/monument-to-the-
           | unknown-...
        
           | jersak wrote:
           | I was sold when you said "direct flights from Vancouver". One
           | of the biggest pain points for me is having to get connecting
           | flights in the east coast for most destinations we plan to go
           | to.
        
       | melenaboija wrote:
       | Spain also provides a nomad visa:
       | 
       | - Digital nomads (Official) [1]
       | 
       | - 'Digital nomads' can now live in Spain with their families --
       | if they earn enough [2]
       | 
       | [1] https://prie.comercio.gob.es/en-
       | us/paginas/teletrabajadores-...
       | 
       | [2] https://www.immigrationspain.es/en/visa-for-digital-nomads/
        
         | outworlder wrote:
         | Portugal too.
        
       | lr4444lr wrote:
       | What's the incentive here? A rotating cast of high income earners
       | paying state and local taxes without the benefit the pension
       | system(s)? The country has about 1.73 births per woman with a
       | barely positive net migration. Maybe they should think about
       | getting interested people on a citizenship path.
        
         | carlosjobim wrote:
         | Those people would not be Icelandic. The purpose of a nation is
         | to serve their people, not to replace them with other people.
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | ericmay wrote:
         | > Maybe they should think about getting interested people on a
         | citizenship path
         | 
         | One thing you'll find out is that the EU member states (along
         | with Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc.) are really not very
         | friendly or welcoming in terms of "path to citizenship".
         | 
         | One thing I'd like to see actually is open immigration and
         | potentially _more_ free trade between the US, Canada,
         | Australia, New Zealand, and the UK. I 'd add Ireland but I
         | think EU status would be a problem.
        
           | robocat wrote:
           | > along with Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc.) are really
           | not very friendly or welcoming in terms of "path to
           | citizenship".
           | 
           | About 30% of New Zealand and Australia's populations are
           | immigrants. I don't think we could let many more in! As a
           | comparison, the US is about 15% population of immigrants -
           | and look at the stink over there about there being too many!
           | The places with more immigrants than NZ/Oz by percentage are
           | mostly either small island populations, or Arab states (where
           | you are not actually an immigrant, since you don't have
           | citizenship rights, and slave labour conditions are rife).
           | 
           | One resulting issue is that some major parts of the NZ/Oz
           | housing markets are already some of the most unaffordable in
           | the world (think San Franscisco, but earning less so even
           | less affordable)! The five most expensive cities in the world
           | by unaffordability are Hong Kong, Vancouver, Sydney,
           | Auckland, Toronto : e.g. Sydney: average monthly income of
           | $6,100 with median house price of $1.4 million. Auckland
           | median house price is $1.1 million, whereas the average
           | individual monthly income is $4,269. We have the land, we
           | just need to build a lot of houses to keep up.
        
           | ygjb wrote:
           | I don't know about other countries, but immigration targets
           | in Canada are trending towards attracting 500,000 immigrants
           | per year by 2025. Just because we have alot of openings
           | doesn't mean it's easy though... there are several paths, and
           | most of them are designed to favour folks who will integrate
           | well socially and economically (and that doesn't just mean
           | rich white folks, it means more along the lines of skilled
           | labour and the means to sustain your family while they get
           | settled).
        
           | umanwizard wrote:
           | It is way easier to get a work visa (and later citizenship)
           | in any of the countries you named than it is in the US.
        
         | rocket_surgeron wrote:
         | >A rotating cast of high income earners paying state and local
         | taxes without the benefit the pension system(s)?
         | 
         | Did you expect something different?
         | 
         | That's literally the goal of every "DiGiTaLnOmAd" (you're a
         | migrant worker, dickhead) visa scheme everywhere in the world.
         | They want short-term renters eating out every night and racking
         | up airport fees.
         | 
         | edit: unless you're super-wealthy in which case "Velkominn,
         | Willkommen, iratsushiyaimase, Bem-vindo, Huan Ying , Bienvenu,
         | Tere tulemast, etc...."
        
         | meheleventyone wrote:
         | Iceland has a steady population growth due to immigration
         | already. That said there has been talk in the last month or so
         | of changing up the visa situation to make it easier to recruit
         | tech workers outside of the EEA:
         | 
         | https://northstack.is/2023/03/13/the-icelandic-government-in...
        
       | RomanPushkin wrote:
       | I don't know why these countries do everything to _not_ attract
       | human capital - limitation of 180 days means no-go for me. Maybe
       | I would love to explore a new country for a couple of years, and
       | settle down there with my salary component of ~200k instead of
       | SFBA. But I need my kids to stay at least 1 year in their
       | schools, and 2 years if they like it. And the way to become a
       | resident.
       | 
       | It's so easy for them just to attract high-skilled labor everyone
       | is fighting for. But nope, they pretty much say: "We know you're
       | skilled because we have requirement of 90k/year, but we don't
       | want skilled workers to be able to stay here, because go
       | somewhere else". Well, ok, Iceland..
        
         | Algemarin wrote:
         | > But nope, they pretty much say: "We know you're skilled
         | because we have requirement of 90k/year, but we don't want
         | skilled workers to be able to stay here, because go somewhere
         | else". Well, ok, Iceland..
         | 
         | Correct. It's not a difficult concept to grasp, especially as
         | they are being very overt about it. They don't want foreigners
         | settling into their country. They want foreigners coming in for
         | a short time, pumping money into it, then buggering off.
        
       | dejawu wrote:
       | While this seems awesome (and I do hope to make use of it) I do
       | find it a little funny that an application for a visa for remote
       | work must be submitted by snail mail.
        
         | xenospn wrote:
         | Yeah, I was surprised by that. Wouldn't that make processing
         | incredibly inefficient?
        
       | version_five wrote:
       | I see these visas and I understand there are some circumstances
       | where maybe you have to get one (employer letting you work
       | remote, maybe certain kinds of rental housing) but honestly I
       | don't understand why they have any requirements, and opposed to
       | just asking an otherwise admissible person to declare they're
       | there for work. Like others, I can already go for 90 days if I
       | want for tourism, just with my passport. I don't have to prove
       | income or insurance or submit a photo. What real risk are they
       | taking by just letting my say I'm coming for 6 months to work
       | remotely? All the "remote" visas I've seen are similar, and it
       | all just seems like some silly think bureaucrats dreamed up
       | because they can't let go of control, that really is pointless.
        
         | Algemarin wrote:
         | It's very straightforward: they don't want poor or middle-class
         | foreigners in their country. They want rich people. So that the
         | rich people can live in expensive housing, eat at expensive
         | restaurants, and pump their riches into Iceland's economy.
         | 
         | This is why the minimum barrier to entry into this program is
         | having an income of ISK 1,000,000 per month, which means that
         | you need a salary of over EUR80 000.
         | 
         | Additionally, they also don't want foreigners to actually
         | settle in their country, which is why there is a 180-day
         | ceiling. The purpose of this program is to have rich foreigners
         | come for a spell, spend lots of money, then go away. They're
         | being very transparent about this.
        
           | chroma wrote:
           | $80k/year is rich? That's less than the median household
           | income in a half-dozen states. 18% of Americans make over
           | $100k/year.
        
             | Algemarin wrote:
             | > $80k/year is rich?
             | 
             | Yes.
             | 
             | > That's less than the median household income in a half-
             | dozen states.
             | 
             | That's nice. Can you guess how many states there are in the
             | world?
             | 
             | The fact that you're using the claim that a minority
             | percentage in a single country makes a large amount of
             | money as an argument for the claim that an 80.000 salary is
             | not rich, is a stereotypically American myopic outlook at
             | the world.
        
             | dragonwriter wrote:
             | > $80k/year is rich? That's less than the median household
             | income in a half-dozen states.
             | 
             | (1) EUR 80,000 > USD 80,000 (about USD 86,700)
             | 
             | (2) We're discussing _individual wages_ not _household
             | income_ of households where the average is  >1 wage-earner.
             | 
             | (3) The highest US state median wage is a little over USD
             | 80k, and less than EUR 80k.
             | 
             | (4) The US is a rich country, so, yes, median wage earners
             | in the US _as a whole_ (much less the median wage earner of
             | the state scoring highest on that metric) are rich by any
             | non-US-specific standard.
        
             | ChuckNorris89 wrote:
             | _> $80k/year is rich?_
             | 
             | Yes, 80 thousand Euros per year wages is rich by most EU
             | standards.
             | 
             |  _> 18% of Americans make over $100k/year._
             | 
             | Wow, America, the richest country in the world, has many
             | rich people. The more you learn.
        
             | howinteresting wrote:
             | The US is a very, very rich country. That's why so many
             | people want to move to it.
        
           | MrDresden wrote:
           | Iceland is in Schengen, so foreigners living in a country
           | which is also a member have the ability to move to Iceland
           | and settle here. So foreigners are welcome here. So much so
           | that 14% of all residents are foreign and that does obviously
           | not count those who have received citizenship.
        
         | throwaway049 wrote:
         | Limits on numbers. Welcoming you as a tourist and welcoming you
         | indefinitely are not the same thing. It's not a big population
         | so wouldn't take a very large number of arrivals to impact
         | public services like healthcare and schools.
        
           | mrleinad wrote:
           | Which in order to grow, you'd need more people. And they're
           | not canadians, they don't have an easy immigration path for
           | people that want to move in.
           | 
           | In a way, they're pretty japanese.
        
             | throwaway049 wrote:
             | Iceland population is about 0.3M. perhaps they're happy
             | with that?
        
             | version_five wrote:
             | Why would they want to grow their population?
        
         | tayo42 wrote:
         | Maybe they don't want to remote workers? They make hard to get
         | visas and discourage working on a tourist visa?
        
         | resonance1994 wrote:
         | There are several nationalities belonging to the third world
         | for whom this is a godsend (not this one particularly, but
         | others in the region). As an Indian national, I have to undergo
         | a painful process to procure a tourist visa, which is often
         | valid only for a few days. Something like this which let's me
         | work remotely for clients based over Europe and North America,
         | and let's me travel through Schengen without any stress is
         | really a game changer.
        
           | Algemarin wrote:
           | > As an Indian national
           | 
           | As an Indian national, you are not eligible for this visa
           | program.
           | 
           | One of the requirements is:
           | 
           | > you do not need a visa to enter the Schengen area
        
             | version_five wrote:
             | That's even stranger then, so it's exclusively targeting
             | people who could effectively just come there anyway.
        
               | Algemarin wrote:
               | Correct. It is very explicitly targeting tourists who
               | want to stay for more than 90 days, up to 180 days.
               | Basically this is a convoluted method of extending
               | tourism to rich tourists for a longer (specifically, a
               | double) period of time to have them pump more of their
               | money into the country. That's all.
        
           | mrleinad wrote:
           | Third world tourist that earns over 8k per month? Quite a
           | small pool to draw from there.
        
       | mytailorisrich wrote:
       | I believe Iceland is in the EEA, which means EU, Norwegian, and
       | Swiss citizens have free movement and can move there
       | unrestricted.
        
         | alexanderchr wrote:
         | Not unrestricted, but easily. You only have to prove that
         | you're self sufficient.
        
       | zahma wrote:
       | You'd damn sure better be earning well over 7,000 USD a month.
       | Iceland is so expensive, and I'd imagine those prices have gone
       | up with inflation. Even the locals have a secondary pricelist.
       | It's a nice place to visit, but I'm not sure the cost is worth
       | the living.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | eunos wrote:
       | The minimum salary requirements is quite huge, almost 90000 USD
       | per annum. Seems for now targeting American.
        
         | robopsychology wrote:
         | It's European too, you can pretty easily hit $90k in fully
         | remote contract jobs
        
           | umanwizard wrote:
           | Most Europeans can already live in Iceland without needing a
           | visa.
        
             | robopsychology wrote:
             | Ah yeah, I forget this as a Brit (:
        
         | devoutsalsa wrote:
         | That's likely due to the high cost of living in Iceland. You
         | can live cheap-ish anywhere, but it takes a bit of local
         | knowledge to do that, and I suspect the cheaper housing options
         | in Iceland are not what most digital nomads seek. One data
         | point, in spring of 2021, I saw 1kg of cherries (imported from
         | the Netherlands) in the store for the equivalent of 25 USD.
        
           | diceduckmonk wrote:
           | A Domino's pizza there is $30 for a medium.
        
             | amatecha wrote:
             | I happen to have my stack of receipts from my Iceland trip
             | in front of me (was cleaning out some stuff), and my
             | "bearnaise burger & fries" from the "N1" gas station was
             | 1770 ISK or about $17.50 CAD, $13USD. Let's see what else I
             | have here.. Tenderloin steak from Strikid in Akureyri was
             | 5990 ISK or $59CAD, $44USD, Creme Brulee was 1990 ISK so
             | $20 CAD or $14.50 USD. (btw Strikid was absolutely
             | delicious, 100% recommended).. Indeed Iceland is pretty
             | expensive, though not too bad IMO. I'm surprised how ultra-
             | high the requirement is to be granted this VISA, though.
        
             | ambicapter wrote:
             | Sounds like a mid-size american city.
        
               | MisterBastahrd wrote:
               | I live in a large city and I can get a large Dominos
               | pizza delivered at full menu price for about $20. If I
               | pick it up from the store it's like $8.
        
       | xingped wrote:
       | Only 180 days (and only if you're currently in your home
       | country)? That's pretty lame and makes it not really worth it. If
       | I want to live in a country on a remote worker visa, I'd want it
       | to be at least 1yr minimum in length. As it stands, that's barely
       | any better/different than a normal tourist visa.
        
         | distances wrote:
         | Except that you can't work with a tourist visa? Seems like a
         | major difference.
        
           | Retric wrote:
           | Most countries allow you to do some remote work on a tourist
           | visa. Banning people from checking work email is simply
           | untenable if you want tourism.
           | 
           | UK for example has a fairly explicit line: "The applicant
           | must not receive payment from a UK source for any activities
           | undertaken in the UK."
           | 
           | The idea of someone working fully remotely gets tricky as for
           | example the US wants you to pay US taxes if you've made more
           | than 3k/year while working in the US.
        
       | tenpies wrote:
       | There is something deeply ironic about:
       | 
       | > visa for remote workers
       | 
       | > remote
       | 
       | > Applications can only be submitted in paper form.
       | 
       | What a fantastic way to attract people who will work through the
       | internet: by having them submit paperwork through well, paper.
       | 
       | 20,000 ISK says the forms get scanned as soon as they arrive too.
        
       | bengalister wrote:
       | The limit to 6 months is pretty disappointing. Also the 1,000,000
       | ISK monthly salary for workers in the Schengen area is pretty
       | restrictive, except for Switzerland, Norway, not that many people
       | earn that level of salary.
        
         | itslennysfault wrote:
         | You can stay 90 days on a visitor visa and just leave for a
         | weekend every 90 days and start the clock over. When I was on
         | my last stint as a "digital nomad" I did this a couple times
         | over in a couple different countries. There really isn't any
         | way to get "caught". Your host country doesn't care because
         | you're importing money and spending it there. The country where
         | you have your job doesn't care because you're still paying
         | income tax there. Only catch is you have to keep a residency in
         | your country of origin. Also, of course, your employer needs to
         | be cool with it, but truthfully if you're remote anyways they
         | can't really tell where you live as long as you're online
         | during the expected hours. Although for me I thought it better
         | to be honest/transparent.
         | 
         | All of the above assumes US country of origin, but I'm sure
         | it'd work the same with many countries.
        
           | matthews2 wrote:
           | > You can stay 90 days on a visitor visa and just leave for a
           | weekend every 90 days and start the clock over.
           | 
           | In what country is this the case? For countries in the
           | Schengen area, the rule is 90 days out of any 180 day period.
        
       | momirlan wrote:
       | one of the most expensive countries in the universe,
       | unfortunately.
        
       | ghaff wrote:
       | So basically not much different from a 90-day tourist visa except
       | that you can legitimately remote work which, in practice, there
       | are no real restrictions to doing anyway so long as you're low-
       | profile about it.
        
         | KMag wrote:
         | > so long as you're low-profile about it.
         | 
         | And your employer is fine with it, or willing to turn a blind
         | eye. That rules out lots of people working for large companies,
         | particularly in highly regulated industries.
         | 
         | I would have loved to work remotely from Thailand in my
         | previous job, and my previous employer would have been fine
         | with it, had I been able to show them a work visa.
         | Unfortunately, the Thai SMART Visa would have required my
         | employer to have a Thai subsidiary. I could have created my own
         | Thai single proprietorship and perhaps gotten my employer to
         | hire me indirectly via that Thai entity, but at a minimum, that
         | would have required lots of high-level approvals.
         | 
         | I got an email from the Ukrainian authorities (pre-2022) saying
         | they didn't care if I worked remotely for a foreign company on
         | a 90-day on-arrival tourist visa, and that was sufficient for
         | my employer (as long as I didn't visit post-2014 conflict
         | zones). (The Ukrainian ministry's email reply was along the
         | lines of "Why are you asking us? Why would we care if you work
         | remotely as a tourist, as long as you aren't doing any labor
         | that requires a presence in Ukraine?") I worked from Kiev for a
         | couple of months after a couple of high-level approvals.
         | 
         | Here's hoping more countries adopt digital nomad-friendly work
         | visas. Lots of countries currently turn a blind eye, but it's
         | much better to have everything explicit and above-board.
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | I'm guessing most employers who wouldn't be fine with
           | employees working in another country on a tourist visa for a
           | few months also wouldn't be OK with them doing so on a work
           | visa at least without lots of paperwork and approvals.
           | 
           | Of course, people who don't require special business visas to
           | enter a country for, say, an event routinely do work when
           | traveling in many cases. I've never done months at a time but
           | I've certainly had ~1 month trips in Europe that were some
           | combination of business and pleasure.
        
             | [deleted]
        
         | jyscao wrote:
         | I suppose it also allows one to stay for >90 days (but <=180
         | days) if one so inclines.
         | 
         | Personally, having yet to visit Iceland, and hearing from
         | friends who have that it's not the cheapest place, plus its
         | northernly latitude, 90 days for me to first scout it out is
         | more than enough for me.
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | I would guess that there isn't a lot of overlap between "90
           | days isn't nearly enough" and "no interest in this being an
           | open-ended sort of thing" people.
        
         | devoutsalsa wrote:
         | I'd guess it also doesn't as staying in the Schengen area (aka
         | free movement area the includes most of Europe, including
         | Iceland). An American visiting as a "tourist" can't spend
         | consecutive 90 days in Iceland & then hop over to Spain, as
         | that could take them over the 90 day Schengen visit limitation.
         | 
         | https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/
        
       | cm2012 wrote:
       | Iceland is such a beautiful country. I loved my visit there. I
       | long for the day energy is cheap and clean enough everywhere that
       | we can have hot tubs and pools in every town in every country
       | like in Iceland.
        
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       (page generated 2023-03-28 23:00 UTC)