[HN Gopher] Less than half of us workers use all their vacation ...
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       Less than half of us workers use all their vacation days
        
       Author : mfiguiere
       Score  : 80 points
       Date   : 2023-04-01 20:28 UTC (2 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.bloomberg.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.bloomberg.com)
        
       | duxup wrote:
       | I used to make the schedule for a team of about 25 tech support
       | team members.
       | 
       | It was not unusual that I would assign vacation days to people
       | who didn't use their vacation days and had reached the limit and
       | stopped accruing vacation.
       | 
       | We figured assigning vacation days was better than than have them
       | miss out on days off / get burnt out.
       | 
       | It was a good place to work, good people, the folks who just
       | didn't take vacation just ... didn't. They didn't mind getting it
       | assigned either, we always talked about it first.
        
         | ghaff wrote:
         | I'm sure there are all sorts of reasons including "Just not
         | getting around to it" and "The company can't do without me." (I
         | took a few month-long vacations at a former job and would have
         | people basically ask me "How could you do that?")
         | 
         | That said I'm also known people who really just didn't care to
         | travel for the most part and got bored hanging around the
         | house. (Though in that case, the strategy should probably be to
         | just taking Friday's off.)
        
           | duxup wrote:
           | "I'd rather take vacation when the kids are in school." was
           | also a common request ;) I always gave them whatever
           | preference they had, it made scheduling easier anyway.
           | 
           | Another guy just wanted to be at home with his horses and
           | have time off when the kids were out of school ;)
        
       | xwdv wrote:
       | On paper I don't seem to take much time off.
       | 
       | In reality I take a lot of time off, there's days where I
       | literally will just report at a standup meeting and then do
       | nothing else, while I go off and do something fun. This is "lite"
       | PTO. I don't mind if I have to answer the occasional slack
       | message to keep up the appearance of a busy person.
       | 
       | To me, reporting a day where I just don't feel like doing
       | anything as time off seems like a waste of a PTO day. I'd rather
       | use official PTO for when I travel to some place far and will
       | really be completely unavailable if anyone should try to reach
       | me. This is "deep" PTO.
        
         | zrail wrote:
         | Yep, and I also have regularly scheduled real PTO. Every third
         | Wednesday is a PTO day where I do personal projects or just
         | watch TV or read a book. My company has unlimited PTO and I
         | have no compunctions about using that to my advantage.
        
           | xwdv wrote:
           | Pretty cool but I don't like to tip my hand and prefer to
           | maintain the illusion of an impossibly hard worker.
        
       | einpoklum wrote:
       | When I was reading this story, knowing how US vacation/PTO is
       | something like 2 weeks per year or less - I was thinking: "This
       | is so depressing, the US is hell for workers".
       | 
       | But then I got angry, and thought: "Why aren't these people
       | forming unions and going on general strikes? They used to do it
       | in the late 19th century... that's how they got the 8-hour
       | working day."
       | 
       | And then I remembered that:
       | 
       | 1. large existing US unions are often either corrupt or decrepit
       | 
       | 2. US culture is horribly anti-worker
       | 
       | 3. US corporations do almost everything to disrupt unionization
       | efforts. Years back they would do absolutely everything including
       | hiring mercenaries/saboteurs like the Pinkerton people
       | 
       | ... so I need to cut them some slack.
       | 
       | Anyway, my suggestion is to maybe try the wobblies:
       | 
       | https://www.iww.org/
        
       | scottLobster wrote:
       | Anecdotally, I and most of my coworkers don't typically use all
       | our vacation days because my company has a 300 hour accrual cap,
       | and it can be useful to store up a big reserve depending on your
       | objectives. I know some people who just maintain the cap and use
       | their accrual hours each month so they aren't losing anything.
        
         | tough wrote:
         | I guess it's a neat psychological trick like airline points
        
           | jldugger wrote:
           | Well, every time you get a raise they're worth more at least.
        
         | ghaff wrote:
         | At least with an accrual max system, you can track your time
         | and just start slowly bleeding it off when you get near the
         | cap. With use it or lose it, it's easy to get near the cutoff
         | date and now you have a bunch of time to use which may not be
         | the best use for you while the company may also have to deal
         | with a lot of people taking time off at the same time.
        
         | TheAdamist wrote:
         | My company has a 400 hour cap, and i bump along it for half the
         | year.
         | 
         | Maybe one week of actual vacation a year, it takes time to plan
         | and _money_ to actually go anywhere. And then you need a
         | staycation after to recover from the  "vacation" anyway.
         | 
         | Bigcorp though.
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | Totally different from my experience. But it sounds like you
           | don't actually like to go on extended vacations (or at least
           | prioritize to do so).
        
       | everly wrote:
       | Living in CA, I always keep a lot of accrued PTO because it is
       | paid out to me if/when I leave the company. It's a nice buffer
       | between jobs or whatever, which is more valuable to me than
       | multiple-week vacations.
       | 
       | This is the main reason I dislike unlimited PTO policies.
        
         | ghaff wrote:
         | In addition to company culture, that's one of the big divides.
         | I've always maximized the vacation I took including month-long
         | trips. The only time I got a significant payout was when I got
         | laid-off during dot-bomb and I hadn't filed the paperwork for
         | the vacation I had just taken yet.
         | 
         | I've also only had 4 jobs in the last 35+ years.
        
       | no_wizard wrote:
       | With "unlimited time off" becoming more common I wonder how
       | that's accounted for over time. Some places are really explicit
       | with handbooks that say they expect people to take "4 weeks off"
       | a year (this was one place I worked) and others don't
       | specifically say a number like that.
       | 
       | I think it's kind of a shame and I'd like to go back to split PTO
       | and sick time
        
         | lozenge wrote:
         | The idea of sick time being metered seems crazy to me, the
         | intention is to get people into work when they're sick?
        
           | Ekaros wrote:
           | It gets complicated with longer sicknesses. But with
           | something sort term like hard hitting flu or food poisoning
           | the person isn't probably doing much work anyway. Being stuck
           | in bed or bathroom likely means that not much work is done.
           | And it is more humane to just give that time off straigh and
           | not count any days on those cases.
        
             | ghaff wrote:
             | Large companies do generally have short-term and long-term
             | disability benefits in addition to pooled PTO or sick time.
             | 
             | But they have some limits after which it becomes government
             | or individual insurance.
        
           | kayodelycaon wrote:
           | I think it's more that companies want to restrict how much
           | time you're taking away from them.
        
           | HideousKojima wrote:
           | The intention is that if you're sick for such an extended
           | period of time that you cannot perform your job duties any
           | more, the company no longer has to pay you (i.e. they fire
           | you).
        
         | pengaru wrote:
         | > With "unlimited time off" becoming more common I wonder how
         | that's accounted for over time.
         | 
         | "unlimited time off" means it's not accounted for at all. You
         | basically play unaccounted hooky at will and whether you get
         | away with it depends on how cooperative your team/management
         | is.
         | 
         | Finance is totally oblivious because it's not a "benefit" part
         | of your compensation package anymore. HR only hears about it
         | when you didn't get away with it and management is building a
         | case for firing you.
        
           | dunham wrote:
           | And they don't have liabilities on the books for accrued PTO.
        
           | no_wizard wrote:
           | I didn't mean books accounting, i meant in studies like these
           | and others. Since the guidelines become murky, how do you
           | really account for how much workers are taking off more
           | broadly?
           | 
           | It leads to an obfuscation of the data over time, I think.
        
             | pengaru wrote:
             | They're one in the same though. If the time off isn't on
             | the books, it's definitely not making it into any study's
             | datasets no doubt sourced indirectly from those books via
             | some employment-related TLA...
             | 
             | Understanding the inherently undocumented ad-hoc nature of
             | the "unlimited time off" scam makes it pretty obvious IMO.
        
         | ghaff wrote:
         | IMO unmetered time takes a real commitment from senior
         | management to work fairly which, yes, probably means some
         | reasonable typical guidelines. I'm not a fan of limited but
         | combined PTO and sick time though, fortunately, it's never been
         | a real issue for me and, in fact, I've almost certainly come
         | out ahead at the end of the day.
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | throwaway6734 wrote:
         | >I'd like to go back to split PTO and sick time
         | 
         | What's the benefit compared to having a single bucket?
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | Because, historically, you had vacation which you planned for
           | and sick time which you did not--but which was just there if
           | you were sick up to often fairly generous limits (or just
           | have a lot of doctor's appointments). Being laid up with the
           | flu or an unexpected surgery for a week didn't mean you
           | potentially had to cancel your vacation that year.
        
             | Uvix wrote:
             | There's better solutions to that, like allowing carryover
             | (if people don't need to schedule all their PTO to be used
             | before year's end, they can have some "slop" for unexpected
             | needs), and/or allowing a certain amount of PTO to be used
             | in arrears.
             | 
             | If you separate out vacation and sick time, then employees
             | need to lie to use all of their time off.
        
               | ghaff wrote:
               | >If you separate out vacation and sick time, then
               | employees need to lie to use all of their time off.
               | 
               | This was historically mostly not a problem. People took
               | vacation and they used sick time if they needed to
               | (including I'm sure for the occasional hangover). Sick
               | time wasn't "your" time to use up in the normal course of
               | events. But it was there if you needed it. Sick time was
               | never viewed as a benefit to maximize any more than
               | health insurance was.
               | 
               | Pooling them still leads to a "sucks to be you if you
               | need to take a lot of sick leave." I guess that you can
               | argue that's not the company's problem. But to me that's
               | a generally un-empathetic attitude.
        
           | kayodelycaon wrote:
           | For someone with a disability, having combined PTO and sick
           | time basically means taking time off to remain healthy means
           | you don't get time off to actually do anything with your
           | life.
           | 
           | Sick days aren't vacation for me. I'm generally too depressed
           | or manic to function. I'll usually drive to a park or the
           | local zoo to walk so I'm not sitting in a chair, too anxious
           | or tired to get up. Somehow that's "vacation" time because
           | I'm able to (or need to) leave my house.
        
             | fm2606 wrote:
             | 1000% this.
             | 
             | I have routine procedures that require 2 days just for the
             | procedures. Then a half day for travel. The hospital is 2.5
             | hours away. One of those days is a prep day so I don't
             | venture to far from the hotel.
             | 
             | And this is a yearly occurrence. Now if I have an acute
             | episode that is a 3 day stay (at a local hospital). Which,
             | luckily this only happens every other year or so.
             | 
             | Basically if I take any time off that is true vacation days
             | I have to make sure I have plenty of days on the books in
             | case I get sick or know I will be having to make doctor
             | appointments in the next few months.
        
               | kayodelycaon wrote:
               | I'm out a lot more frequently than that. If I actually
               | took the time I needed, it would be 2~3 days each month.
               | I usually want to take a minimum 12 days of vacation per
               | year to attend conventions and visit people.
               | 
               | The end result is me spending a week or more per month
               | being barely functional. I'm at my desk, poking at code I
               | don't have enough brain power to understand. But, better
               | to "work" than get in trouble for not being visibly at my
               | desk.
        
               | fm2606 wrote:
               | Sorry to hear that.
               | 
               | As far as diseases go I guess I'm fairly fortunate. I
               | don't have to manage it day-to-day but it is always in
               | the back of my mind.
               | 
               | If I had known in my teens and 20s I'd end up with this
               | type of disease I'd have done drugs and raw dogged some
               | hookers, at least I'd be able to point to a reason for
               | having a bad liver. /s
        
               | no_wizard wrote:
               | In the US, you can use sick time for these things, BTW.
               | Things that are required for care are legally allowed to
               | be used as sick time instead of PTO.
               | 
               | I think the unlimited time off loophole damages the sick
               | time more than actual vacation, as others have pointed
               | out in this thread, which is the real shame.
        
             | hospadar wrote:
             | This this this. Split PTO is an accommodation for disabled
             | and chronically ill folks that allows them to have actual
             | vacation and also take care of themselves. Unified PTO
             | penalizes people who need time off work to care for
             | themselves regularly.
             | 
             | If you're disabled/chronically ill you maybe be able to use
             | intermittent FMLA (in the US) to take more sick time but
             | this is unpaid and can be a big hassle, esp if your
             | employer/doctors are not supportive/cooperative (which can
             | be a result of incompetence/ignorance as easily as malice)
        
               | kayodelycaon wrote:
               | I have ADA accommodations for intermittent leave, which
               | is about as good as it gets, but I'm required to use my
               | PTO before going unpaid. Once I'm unpaid, I don't have
               | PTO to use.
        
         | zikduruqe wrote:
         | Unlimited PTO means the company does not have to pay your
         | unused vacation time when you leave; voluntarily or not.
         | 
         | Remember, HR isn't there for you, it is there to help the
         | company.
        
       | siliconc0w wrote:
       | In my experience it's hard to get redundancy, teams are run lean
       | enough (esp today w/ layoffs) that there isn't really much slack,
       | deliverables and work doesn't really go away, it just piles up
       | until you get back. It's usually almost a job in itself handing
       | things off so things don't drop to the floor.
        
       | freetime2 wrote:
       | https://archive.is/9zfR2
        
       | jwie wrote:
       | There's likely some nuance here.
       | 
       | Lets say a worker has nominally 10 days off per year. What the
       | company does practically is if you take more than 6 days off is
       | start writing you up. Theoretically you could take 10 days but
       | any infraction would result in termination. The practice ensures
       | employees are always dismissible for cause unless they don't use
       | vacation days.
       | 
       | Not all companies use such tactics on their workforce, but enough
       | do to make it a systematic problem.
       | 
       | Mandatory payout at 100% for unused PTO, and a ban on use-or-lose
       | would be a good start.
        
         | messe wrote:
         | > 10 days off per year
         | 
         | I forget how dystopian the US is at times.
        
           | SapporoChris wrote:
           | 10 days of personal time off and 11 federal holidays.
           | Basically 4 out of 52 weeks off a year. It's really not that
           | dystopian.
        
             | messe wrote:
             | Compared to 20 days off (minimum), and unlimited sick
             | leave, plus holidays. Yes it is.
        
             | ArteEtMarte wrote:
             | My PTO is in addition to bank holidays, which I think is
             | the equivalent to your federal holidays. A quick count
             | shows that there are 10 bank holidays in the UK this year.
             | Whichever way you slice it, American workers are getting
             | screwed.
        
           | ArteEtMarte wrote:
           | Agree. It's unbelievable from a European perspective.
           | 
           | Here in the UK, I get 28 days PTO per year. I can carry
           | forward up to 5 days into the next year. But once you've done
           | that once, you're pretty much committed to taking at least 28
           | days off the next year, because it's not really acceptable
           | (from a company perspective) to lose PTO. We're strongly
           | encouraged to spread the time off over the year, and to use
           | up our allowance. Anybody here that only took 10 days per
           | year would be having a chat with HR about healthy work/life
           | balance.
           | 
           | I genuinely struggle to understand how it's possible to have
           | anything like an enjoyable existence with only 10 days off
           | per year. I mean, that's all your PTO gone for only a single
           | 2 week vacation. Not even a single spare day for a duvet day.
        
             | Symbiote wrote:
             | You'd probably find HR require taking the legal minimum, 20
             | days, but the rest could be ignored if the employee refuses
             | to take the time off.
             | 
             | They can be stricter (forcing all time to be taken) in
             | finance.
        
             | Zircom wrote:
             | More like a one week vacation, if you're lucky. You're
             | forgetting that most of us don't have separate sick leave
             | so PTO has to get used for sick days, dr appointments, etc.
             | My first company I worked for wouldn't let you take any
             | time off unpaid until you were out of PTO, so if you got
             | the flu and were out for a week, there goes half your
             | yearly vacation.
        
         | black_puppydog wrote:
         | You say "there's more nuance" but what I read here is "it's
         | actually worse than that."
         | 
         | I thought it was "just" about toxic culture but this reads like
         | there are quite concrete methods of coercion at play.
        
           | jwie wrote:
           | I meant more, it's not like people aren't using as much as
           | they can. It's that there's some tactics used against
           | workers.
           | 
           | This happened to an in-law who works for a soft drink
           | distributor, but this kind of thing happens often in decent
           | wage but lower end jobs, the 20-40/hr range.
           | 
           | At the high end it's more workaholics or people looking to
           | get promoted. On the lower rungs it's coercion and games by
           | HR to manage people out and claw back vacation days.
        
         | lotsofpulp wrote:
         | No state is going to accept that terminating someone for using
         | their accrued vacation is a legitimate for cause termination.
        
           | Zircom wrote:
           | Lol no. Assuming at-will employment, which is the vast
           | majority of the US workforce, "using all your vacation days
           | yearly" is not a protected class so they are absolutely able
           | to fire you for it.
        
             | lotsofpulp wrote:
             | The significance of a for cause termination is to keep
             | unemployment benefit insurance premiums low for the
             | employer, because the terminated employee is made
             | ineligible for unemployment benefits.
             | 
             | Of course any employer not in Montana can simply terminate
             | anyone at anytime for no reason, but then there is no
             | reason to write up anyone.
        
           | A_non_e-moose wrote:
           | And is using all accrued vacation days ever expliticly
           | mentioned as contributing towards termination reason or is
           | something else used as a cover?
        
       | devinprater wrote:
       | Lol we only get 5 days of PTO, personal leave.
        
       | acd wrote:
       | US should add an extra week of vacation.
        
         | pessimizer wrote:
         | Extra? There is no required vacation time in the United States,
         | so an extra week would be one week.
        
         | kube-system wrote:
         | The US would have to establish a law regarding mandatory
         | vacation time before they could start adding to it.
        
           | cableshaft wrote:
           | The state of Illinois did just that this year. They aren't
           | even the first state to do it.
           | 
           | "Gov. Pritzker Signs Historic Legislation Guaranteeing 40
           | Hours of Paid Leave
           | 
           | Governor JB Pritzker today signed SB208 into law, making
           | Illinois the third state in the nation, and the first in the
           | Midwest, to mandate paid time off to be used for any reason.
           | The historic legislation provides employees with up to 40
           | hours of paid leave during a 12-month period, meaning
           | approximately 1.5 million workers will begin earning paid
           | time off starting in 2024."
           | 
           | https://www.illinois.gov/news/press-release.26164.html
        
         | itake wrote:
         | If companies are willing to give me an extra week, I'd prefer
         | taking that week in cash.
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | Maybe it's better value to the company for you to get some
           | more relaxation.
        
       | VLM wrote:
       | I always find this weird as the closest big city to where I live
       | had striking workers executed (as in gunned down in the street)
       | for striking, so everyone takes them all, even a century later.
        
       | szundi wrote:
       | In Hungary I as CEO am legally bound to kick people out to use
       | their vacation days.
        
       | freetime2 wrote:
       | On paper I've never used up all my PTO, even though in reality I
       | was probably taking more time off than I was allotted. None of my
       | managers have ever cared, and one of my first managers even
       | explicitly told me not to bother reporting PTO ("you can get a
       | nice check when you leave for unused PTO").
       | 
       | Obviously this varies from place to place, but I believe the
       | practice was pretty widespread in silicon valley at least. And
       | this was one of the justifications for companies moving to
       | "unlimited" PTO policies - employees weren't reporting PTO
       | diligently, and they didn't like having to pay people out when
       | they left.
        
         | leetrout wrote:
         | IMO its the only (shitty) justification.
         | 
         | Unlimited PTO is a scam.
        
           | teaearlgraycold wrote:
           | I prefer unlimited PTO. I can see toxic workplaces making it
           | worse than the alternative. But I've only worked in places
           | where it was no issue for me to take 4-5 weeks off per year
           | on their unlimited vacation policy.
        
             | hombre_fatal wrote:
             | Well, yeah. Everything is easy in a functional workplace.
             | You can even have de facto unlimited PTO while not having
             | it officially.
             | 
             | Official Unlimited PTO is a scam because of how easy it is
             | to abuse in toxic workplaces. It's a shortcut for saying
             | there's no minimum and you can take vacation when
             | everything is caught up (nothing is ever caught up).
        
               | teaearlgraycold wrote:
               | I was lucky enough to work at copy.ai as they were
               | defining their PTO policy and got the CEO to agree to
               | unlimited PTO along with a minimum of 3 weeks.
        
             | lostlogin wrote:
             | 4 weeks leave is a legal minimum where I live and public
             | holidays come on top of that (12 per year).
             | 
             | Many employers give 5. It accrues if you don't take it.
        
             | hammock wrote:
             | A toxic workplace is a toxic workplace, whatever PTO you
             | have.
             | 
             | A toxic workplace can make fixed PTO just as miserable as
             | unlimited PTO if they want to, and vice versa
        
             | dangwhy wrote:
             | > take 4-5 weeks off per year
             | 
             | how do you come up with this number though. If its a set
             | number like that then why not make that official PTO.
        
           | nirav72 wrote:
           | Indeed it is a scam. Biggest problem with unlimited pto is
           | that managers don't care until you take what they feel is a
           | disproportionate amount of time off. With a fixed number of
           | PTO days, managers can tell you take time off , so they don't
           | have to pay out at end of fiscal year for unused days.
        
           | RyJones wrote:
           | Completely agree. It really means "take less vacation than
           | your boss"
        
         | nine_zeros wrote:
         | This kind of empathatic, humane management is quite rare.
         | 
         | I have seen that the manager lets it slide but behind the
         | scenes "keeps record" and it shows up in your performance
         | report. This usually happens when the manager is under pressure
         | themselves and needs to find a scapegoat. Who better to
         | scapegoat that the undocumented PTO taker.
        
       | sys_64738 wrote:
       | As you get older then you realize time is finite and work is just
       | a means to an end. I take all my vacation in the year I get it
       | and if the company were to ever say anything then it's like
       | _shrug_. It 's like WFH in that you could tell me to work from a
       | cube but I'd ignore that. I take my vacation and don't ever check
       | email or respond to texts.
        
         | einpoklum wrote:
         | Time is finite? :-O ... Now they tell me! T_T
         | 
         | ...
         | 
         | [ GONE FISHIN' ]
        
           | sys_64738 wrote:
           | Your lifetime is finite is what I really mean. I know you
           | know but just saying anyways.
        
         | toomuchtodo wrote:
         | I'm currently a manager at an org with unlimited PTO. I take at
         | least five weeks a year, and I enforce a minimum four weeks a
         | year with my directs. No Slack, no email, it all gets turned
         | off in Azure AD until they return. There are few hills I'll die
         | on, but this is one of them. Life is short and most work is
         | inconsequential on a long life arc.
         | 
         | I don't believe in the concept of unlimited PTO (usually
         | disadvantages the worker), but I'm fine playing along when it's
         | their dime and they're calling the tune.
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | >No Slack, no email, it all gets turned off in Azure AD until
           | they return.
           | 
           | I won't really categorically disagree. But, if _I 'm hanging
           | in my hotel room_ and surfing or whatever, if I can point
           | someone in a direction or answer a quick question, I'm not
           | sure that's wrong. I assure you I'll go back to my book-
           | reading or movie-watching right after.
        
             | matwood wrote:
             | Same. It's not required, but if I'm just sitting there I'll
             | give a pointer if I can.
        
             | toomuchtodo wrote:
             | I appreciate that idea, I did so myself during my last
             | vacation (I stay on slack and email as I report to c
             | suite). But it is my job to defend the quality of life of
             | my direct reports, and we can spend some more cycles as an
             | org if needed versus bothering people OOO/PTO/Vaca. If we
             | are so reliant on that person that we need that ability,
             | we've failed (processes, documentation, cross training,
             | etc).
             | 
             | We're not saving lives, we're just moving bits.
             | 
             | Edit @ghaff: Love the CEO anecdote in your reply, I'd work
             | for that person! Priorities set properly.
        
               | ghaff wrote:
               | I'm mostly pretty disciplined. I'm on vacation but if I
               | can spend 5 minutes unblocking something, hey, they pay
               | me well enough.
               | 
               | Though to your C-suite comment, an engineering director
               | at a fairly high profile SV company was telling me that
               | they hired a senior comms person who just couldn't deal
               | with the fact that the CEO would take vacations where
               | they literally unplugged--and ended up quitting.
        
               | sonofhans wrote:
               | Yes, this is a hidden benefit of having people take real
               | time off. No org should be dependent for daily/weekly
               | functioning on one person. If the cracks start showing in
               | a single week of vacation, you've got some
               | knowledge/skill sharing to do.
        
               | ghaff wrote:
               | I don't think I'm really giving anything away by saying
               | this was Netflix.
        
             | sys_64738 wrote:
             | It's called psychology. Even though you're on vacation
             | you're still working and engaged.
        
         | eb0la wrote:
         | I just joined a company with unlimited PTO. Last week I found
         | out one of my direct reports took less than one vacation week
         | last year. I told the team they had to spend all vacation
         | within the year (22 days). We're all spread in Europe. Not
         | taking vacation could be a liability for the company, not to
         | mention that tired and stressed people makes a lot of mistakes
         | and I cannot afford loosing any engineer due to burnouts.
        
       | Kognito wrote:
       | An interesting, if slightly dated, comparison between 22
       | countries' vacation taking habits (including US + some of
       | Europe).
       | 
       | Remarkable how little vacation allowance the US gets. No wonder
       | only around a 3rd of Americans own passports.
       | 
       | https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2015/11...
        
         | myroon5 wrote:
         | American passport rate over time if anyone's curious:
         | 
         | https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-sh...
        
           | MikeTheRocker wrote:
           | Wow, as someone who loves to travel and has the good fortune
           | to do it often, the idea of not being able to or not wanting
           | to leave one's home country is unfathomable.
        
             | [deleted]
        
         | ghaff wrote:
         | >No wonder only around a 3rd of Americans own passports.
         | 
         | The US also has a ton of attractions within its borders. And
         | other than going to Canada or Mexico, you're talking about
         | relatively expensive flights to travel internationally.
        
           | andybak wrote:
           | I'm in the UK and a lot of my travel over the years has been
           | to places relatively far away (Asia, Americas).
           | 
           | Travel in Europe is expensive when you're there so a lot of
           | people from Europe travel to SE Asia and similar destinations
           | (althought the cost differential is reducing)
        
             | amrocha wrote:
             | I'm very confused by this comment. Travel within Europe is
             | insanely cheap compared with North America because low cost
             | carriers exist and the distances are way smaller, not to
             | mention you can take buses if you're _really_ on a budget.
             | 
             | You're not finding flights in the US between major cities
             | for less than 3 digits, and buses take several hours. In
             | Europe you take a 2 hour bus ride and end up in a
             | completely different country whichever way you go.
             | 
             | There's a reason your stereotypical university student
             | backpacker goes to Europe.
        
           | lostlogin wrote:
           | > The US also has a ton of attractions within its borders.
           | 
           | As does everywhere, which is why people travel.
        
         | ArteEtMarte wrote:
         | That survey makes a lot of sense to me, as a Brit. If I don't
         | take my PTO my boss's boss gets nagged by HR, so they nag my
         | boss, who nags me.
         | 
         | Our PTO year runs from 1 April, so the only (unwritten) rule
         | about vacation is that we should try to spread it over the
         | year. This is because we're only allowed to carry over 5 days
         | to the next year, not taking PTO is frowned upon, and HR don't
         | want everybody to be using up their PTO at the same time at the
         | end of the year.
         | 
         | A few days ago we had a Zoom town-hall meeting where our CEO
         | thanked everybody for taking time off.
        
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