[HN Gopher] Don't record your social life on an append-only soci... ___________________________________________________________________ Don't record your social life on an append-only social network (2022) Author : cristoperb Score : 64 points Date : 2023-04-13 19:10 UTC (3 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.ctrl.blog) (TXT) w3m dump (www.ctrl.blog) | amadeuspagel wrote: | Worth considering, but the conclusion that permanency is | "definitely not what you should look for in your social network" | goes way too far. People use different social networks for | different purposes. | | There are certain privacy features like self-deleting messages | that you can only get in a closed ecosystem. Does this mean you | shouldn't use any kind of web-based social media, since everyone | you communicate with can easily and automatically archive | everything using a browser extension or userscript? | sharperguy wrote: | I find the nostr[1] protocol to be a nice alternative here. The | core idea is the separation of message content from the relays | which transport them. So you sign a message and publish it to | several relays, and then anyone can retrieve your message from | any of the relays where it is published. | | As opposed to Mastadon, your identity is tied to your pubkey | rather than the instance that you created your account on. The | difference to Scuttlebutt is the differentiation of relays vs | clients, and the lack of chaining messages together in the | "blockchain"-like structure. | | The result is a fairly simple protocol which is fairly low | latency and seamless for many applications compared to other | decentralized solutions. | | [1]. https://nostr.com/ | canadiantim wrote: | Isn't nostr still an append-only solution? | csdvrx wrote: | So you mean, like Hacker News past 2 hours? | WakoMan12 wrote: | [flagged] | csdvrx wrote: | Not sure I should have vouched for your comment but it was a | funny illustration of the principle being discussed, and | therefore relevant. | SllX wrote: | Sometimes it's worth checking comment history before | vouching. | csdvrx wrote: | oopsies :) | | I don't like to check comment history, as I prefer to | avoid passing judgement based on past behavior, but here | you're rigt, I should have. | SllX wrote: | Same, and I only figured this out very recently too. Just | passing it on. :) | karaterobot wrote: | > The technology that powers SSB is entirely different from | Twitter and Mastodon. You don't need to register an account | anywhere to get started. Your identity isn't a username and | doesn't depend on a domain name or service provider. Instead, | your username is a meaningless cryptographic hash that consists | of random-looking numbers and letters. Your friends only need to | know your hash to follow you, and you can keep it as public or | private as you want. | | I'm not familiar with SSB. And, to me, this article's headline is | five words too long (harumph) | | Question though: Does this imply that I can follow someone | without them knowing about it if their address hash gets leaked? | If so, in what way could it meaningfully be described as being | private? I assume there's some way to control who you broadcast | to, or approve someone who follows you, and this description is | just not mentioning it. | robryk wrote: | > in what way could it meaningfully be described as being | private? | | You can broadcast encrypted statements: | https://ssbc.github.io/scuttlebutt-protocol-guide/#private-m... | | ~Everyone can tell how many of these you sent, when, and how | large were they, but not to whom (incl. how many recipients | they had unless there were too many and you had to send | multiple copies[1]) or what was in them. | | [1] The copies will still be unlinkable, but if someone sends 5 | messages of ~same size within a second, it's a pretty good | guess that they're sending 5 copies of the same message. | gropo wrote: | twetch uses the bie1 encryption protocol on a plaintext | blockchain to allow for append only data that can be retracted | from view. | | twetch.com | Mizoguchi wrote: | Exodus = 0.2% | iLoveOncall wrote: | "Blockchains are useless, more at 5" | wmf wrote: | Bluesky's AT Protocol has made some progress on using Merkle | trees while still allowing content to be deleted. | genpfault wrote: | (2022) | dang wrote: | Added. Thanks! | [deleted] | i-use-nixos-btw wrote: | Completely unaware of this social network. What problem, exactly, | is a blockchain based social network trying to solve? Proof of | origin? A conversational paper trail? | | The latter would be interesting for areas where conversations | should be on the record, however in cases that people want their | conversations off the record they'd just use a side channel. The | UK govt communicates using WhatsApp for Christ's sake. | | So it'd need to be something where both parties fundamentally | benefit from the ability to verify that a post, or a | conversation, took place. Where would that even apply? | grapesurgeon wrote: | [dead] | joemi wrote: | > What problem, exactly, is a blockchain based social network | trying to solve? | | I think the problem it's trying to solve is: "How can we mix | social networking with blockchain?" | carlmr wrote: | Maybe betting? Both sides are usually interested in recording | the bet. | aftbit wrote: | AFAIK it was intended to support the use case of being | occasionally connected to the internet (one author spent a lot | of time on a small sailboat in the south Pacific), while | maintaining an order of messages. | grey_earthling wrote: | > What problem, exactly, is a blockchain based social network | trying to solve? Proof of origin? | | (SSB is blockchain in the strict sense, but there's no proof of | work or anything like that. Each feed is its own append-only | chain with its own private key.) | | For SSB, the aim was to be able to gossip feeds via untrusted | intermediaries, with patchy network connections all round, and | be sure that the intermediaries haven't added, changed or | removed any posts in the feed. | | The protocol's designer lives on a boat in New Zealand, and | other collaborators live in remote areas in different time | zones. | | One adjustment to the protocol that seems to me like a quick | win (but presumably has some technical hitch I can't see, since | I don't recall anyone suggesting this) would be to not include | the post's body in the "block" (in the message itself that gets | hashed and signed by the next message), but rather as a "blob" | (essentially an attachment) which others don't need to download | in order to verify the feed. That way old messages could be | effectively forgotten if all peers co-operate (and no-one took | a screenshot, etc). | rinor wrote: | I'm working on something in this space, though god knows if | I'll ever finish it. And that's one of two approaches I | considered to that problem. Another is to have a signed | deletion marker saying something to the effect of "there was | a block here with hash d9841a, but now there isn't anymore, | and I'm its replacement". | evbogue wrote: | > One adjustment to the protocol that seems to me like a | quick win (but presumably has some technical hitch I can't | see, since I don't recall anyone suggesting this) would be to | not include the post's body in the "block" (in the message | itself that gets hashed and signed by the next message), but | rather as a "blob" (essentially an attachment) which others | don't need to download in order to verify the feed. | | There's nothing to prevent you from taking this route, you | just sign a blob hash instead of an entire message object. | | I work on an experimental SSB-like-protocol in my spare time | that does exactly what you've suggested: | https://github.com/evbogue/bogbook | | I don't know if this makes the network forget more, but the | aim is to reduce the time it takes to sync and get started. | Vendan wrote: | It's about as much blockchain as git is blockchain, so... not | really blockchain at all... | an_ko wrote: | To my understanding, it allows messages on the network to have | a total order, even when fully decentralised. Without a hash | chain, clients could not tell what order events happened in, | and might display them ordered differently, which would change | a conversation's meaning. | | The traditional alternative is logical clocks, but a malicious | participant could forge those, so they're not suitable for a | fully distributed system run by random users. | mwattsun wrote: | I deleted 12 years of Facebook posts after downloading a backup | one by one. This was before they had multiple deletes. It took me | a few weeks so I did it when I was bored. What's funny is that | you can't actually delete everything, because something from the | past will show up again. Just one or two things. I assume when | databases located around the world sync up there's a few things | that didn't get deleted. | klabb3 wrote: | Mostly agree. You can have strong cryptography even with | mutability/overwritability. You can simply issue soft deletes by | issuing a tombstone write. | | However, you always risk someone else (like a scraper) storing | messages including your signature forever. Deleting is virtually | impossible for practical communication purposes. Best you can get | is "I promise you I deleted my copy and thus wont distribute it | further". | roundandround wrote: | I'd generally consider that different because whatever people | scrape could be randomly reassembled but its not forming a | canonical proof. A social platform that digitally signed | content to have irrefutable proof of what you scraped would be | closer and that would probably be adding the anti pattern they | criticize for little reason. | klabb3 wrote: | It sounds right, but would you mind spelling out the full | conclusion? The level of indirection is a bit high for my | lazy brain. | | To me public communication has the trade off between trusting | the communications platform (like most social platforms | today) vs trusting the end user (signed messages). If you | have trusted end users, scraping a third party repo of | "forever history" becomes more plausible, as they can both | prove that you(ish) signed it and are unlikely to respect | your request to delete their copy. Is this different from | what you're saying? | Dalewyn wrote: | "The internet never forgets." | 123sereusername wrote: | also, wash your hands after using the toilet. | jfax wrote: | >Your identity isn't a username and doesn't depend on a domain | name or service provide | | Like a tripcode? | | >Instead, your username is a meaningless cryptographic hash that | consists of random-looking numbers and letters. | | Ah | grey_earthling wrote: | In SSB it's a public key. Most users announce their own display | names (which needn't be unique) and some clients let you set a | pet name for other users (like a phone's contacts list). | koch wrote: | While not anything blockchain-based, I had a similar thought of | just doing social media through a single text file that you can | add to/remove from whenever, and re-post the whole thing[0]. | Literally HTTP POST it. | | Edit, amend, add, delete, schedule, etc., all from a single text | file. I haven't worked on it in a few weeks but I intend to get | back to it soon. | | [0] https://post.mw | tenebrisalietum wrote: | Somewhat of a precedent exists: classic UNIX mbox files. | | I guess it would be fine if indexed separately. Edits to data | past a certain age are fairly rare. | dddw wrote: | Cool stuff | squiggy22 wrote: | I went to try this out only to read the words 'download the | software'. | | Good luck with that. Even the Firefox plugin requires some | additional setup. Frictionless it ain't. By a long stretch. | | Sigh. | bee_rider wrote: | Sounds like the goal of the article was achieved? You didn't | record your social life on an append-only social network. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-04-13 23:00 UTC)