[HN Gopher] Rural Americans are importing tiny Japanese pickup t...
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Rural Americans are importing tiny Japanese pickup trucks
Author : dduugg
Score : 200 points
Date : 2023-04-20 20:10 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.economist.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.economist.com)
| porphyra wrote:
| One of the most highly upvoted Reddit posts on /r/fuckcars mocks
| large pickups compared to the utility of a kei truck.
|
| https://reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/sdrgv3/japanese_truck...
|
| A kei truck has about 90% the bed length of a pickup while being
| a lot more nimble. The lower bed is more ergonomic to load and
| unload too.
| nicbou wrote:
| For me, European multipurpose vehicles (sprinter vans?) were a
| revelation. An old Renault Kangoo is cheap to buy, cheap to
| drive and cheap to maintain. It's a small, simple car that
| drives and parks like a small sedan, but carries as much as a
| small pickup truck.
|
| I can fit a bed, 3 months of luggage and a bicycle in mine. In
| a pinch, it's a brilliant microcamper. It's a big box on
| wheels. You can do what you want with it.
|
| It's not a nice car, but it was designed to serve real user
| needs. That's why they're everywhere from Morocco to Poland.
| porphyra wrote:
| Vans are really much more practical.
|
| * protects your goods from weather
|
| * more cargo volume
|
| * better forward visibility without a long hood
|
| * easier to load and unload due to being lower
|
| * can park it without people being able to walk up to it and
| taking your tools and equipment out of the exposed truck bed
| rtpg wrote:
| This made me realize why I see so many Kangoos in Japan,
| despite them not really being cheap here! A bit of a nicer
| version of a Kei truck, without being a full minivan!
| quarantine wrote:
| The Citroen Berlingo really is one of the best cars they made
| lm28469 wrote:
| The c15 is an icon too, such a classic, produced from 1984
| until 2006, it can carry almost as much as it weights. And
| it was designed to fit a full euro palette in the back http
| s://images.caradisiac.com/images/0/9/8/4/190984/S0-route...
| echelon wrote:
| The /r/fuckcars folks are being a little dishonest here. As
| another commenter mentioned, this is like asking a vegan for
| steak recommendations at a restaurant.
|
| Subaru Sambar (kei truck) towing capacity: 1,300 lbs
|
| Ford F-150 towing capacity: 5,000 to 11,300 lbs
|
| Ford F-250 Shelby edition towing capacity: 24,200 pounds
|
| And that's just one additional dimension where these vehicles
| significantly differ.
|
| These vehicles are utilitarian workhorses great for
| contracting, construction, farming (eg. hauling livestock),
| towing (eg. other cars, trailers, mobile BBQ, etc.), boating,
| leisure [1], etc.
|
| I live in an urban area close enough to the forest, lakes, and
| pastures to see all of these uses frequently.
|
| The electric version will power job sites, camp sites, and help
| with disaster recovery. It's going to sell like hot cakes.
|
| [1] https://www.f150forum.com/f34/how-pull-jeep-out-
| mud-130086/#...
| libraryatnight wrote:
| I know a lot of people with those ridiculous big trucks, and
| 2 of them use them for utility, one has a boat and one has a
| 5th wheel. The others just...have them. So until there's zero
| people driving them for vanity or aggression reasons, it
| doesn't feel dishonest at all. Your response feels like a
| typical US response to social ills - turn a blind eye to a
| problem because a) the thing causing the problem is
| fun/popular/profitable b) there's a handful of hyper specific
| potentially valid reasons for the thing that have nothing to
| do with the people causing the problem (most of the giant
| trucks in my area can't even haul anything because of the
| vanity lifts and various "upgrades" - they would make the
| argument you are as to why they should be allowed but they
| would not support anything that would restrict them to those
| purposes).
| porphyra wrote:
| The point isn't that the smaller truck is an equally capable
| vehicle. The point is to make fun of people who don't need a
| truck but are getting an overkill vehicle as a status symbol,
| all the while people who actually need to transport goods can
| still get a lot done with a tiny kei truck.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Missing the point. Many people buying inefficient oversized
| pickup trucks don't care that there's smaller and more
| efficient options out there, but they do it for the status
| simbol and ego lifting, not to be utilitarian and efficient.
|
| I see these monster pick-up trucks more and more in European
| cities nowadays too, F-150s, Dodge Rams, with some fancy
| paintjob and big wheels but who's bed hasn't seen any actual
| use carrying anything because the owner is usually some middle-
| aged Ray-Ban wearing divorced dad with money, using it as a
| toy, trying to look cool. Power to him I guess, but those
| monster trucks are horrible for visibility and safety of
| cyclists, pedestrians, small cars, etc.
|
| Most utilitarians here, blue collar workers, people for whom
| their vehicles are a tool for the job, mostly drive white vans
| here, as they're a lot more practical and economical than big
| trucks.
| flappyeagle wrote:
| It's not missing the point. It's making the point.
| eldritch_4ier wrote:
| Not even necessarily ego or whatever. Some people just like
| trucks, and a car's "reputation" is part of the purchase
| decision for many buyers. It's why men don't buy Beetles or
| Priuses as often as women and women don't buy trucks as often
| as men for instance. Many people express themselves with
| their car.
| nathanaldensr wrote:
| Huge lifted trucks are just flashy iPhones in another form--
| jewelry and signals of wealth to others.
| iancmceachern wrote:
| Not me.
|
| I bought a F250 diesel to tow my 13,000 lb rv. Smaller
| vehicles can't do that.
| codalan wrote:
| Sprinter vans are more practical than modern pickups. You can
| fit a few sheets of drywall into it, lock up your stuff, and
| keep everything out of the elements. If you have a windowless
| van, you have everything out of sight, as well.
| glitcher wrote:
| Another factor is safety. I don't share this point of view,
| but I have seen others purposely choose large, heavy vehicles
| for family members so they stand a better chance surviving a
| bad collision.
|
| If you've ever sat in traffic driving a small car surrounded
| by large vehicles it definitely starts to sink in that you
| are at a distinct disadvantage if anything goes wrong. So
| this trend is also at least partially about this weird arms
| race of wanting to feel safer in the presence of ever larger
| vehicles.
| cvwright wrote:
| Not sure why you're being downvoted. I live in Dallas and
| this is 100% true.
|
| What's fun is when you notice that the biggest, flashiest
| trucks are all concentrated in the fanciest suburbs. Once you
| get out in the country, off the main roads like where I'm
| from, suddenly (1) pickup trucks make up a _lower_ percentage
| of the traffic, and (2) they are generally* smaller, more
| utilitarian and more beat up.
|
| * except for the occasional F350 dually pulling an actual
| horse trailer
| boredumb wrote:
| Where I live the hills would stall that kei out before you got
| to any real hills, with nothing at all added to the bed.
| [deleted]
| tlear wrote:
| Those things are used in mountains in Japan without any
| issues at all, they are very light.
| aae42 wrote:
| Gear ratios, you might just not be getting up the hills very
| quickly
| thesuitonym wrote:
| Why do you believe that?
| Kye wrote:
| I've seen enough attempting greater feats than carrying
| normal loads up hills in /r/IdiotsInCars to know you're
| completely and hilariously wrong.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| I rode in kei-trucks and kei-vans with an adult in every
| seat, up some very steep and long hills in Japan. We weren't
| exactly in the fast lane, but there was not any mention of
| the van not being up to the task. It felt just fine.
|
| In fact my friend was SO excited about his new van (for 1998)
| that for a while, he was bragging about every last little
| aspect up and down those hills, every time we rode with him.
| He lived in a gigantic danchi at the top of one of the
| steepest hills around, and still loved that thing.
|
| (He worked as a furnace-jumper-inner / furnace-insides-
| scraper at an auto recycling place all day, and had molten
| aluminum burns on his arms and sometimes face...I respected
| the heck out of that guy for what he did to support his
| family. I think he runs an IT business in Brazil now.)
| thebooktocome wrote:
| Japan is famously mountainous. I can't imagine they don't
| road test them on "real hills".
| nilespotter wrote:
| I would much, much rather have a new $70k Ford F150 Raptor than
| a tiny Japanese truck . Honestly a redditor - perhaps the most
| odious group on the Iternet - recommending the tiny Japanese
| truck over the F150 is a good enough reason to prefer the
| opposite; a redditor on "fuckcars" is a GREAT reason to prefer
| the opposite.
| autophagian wrote:
| Why?
| nilespotter wrote:
| Basically because it's a high-mid-tier, nice modern car.
| Comparatively it has a quieter and smoother ride will allow
| me to make phone calls on my commute, using carplay to make
| the calls, read messages to me, and play music through the
| incredible sounding large badass speakers. The ride is
| much, much, much smoother. It'll be much more comfortable
| for a long road trip. There will be more room in the cab
| for stuff like say, my wife AND my dog. It comes with a
| warranty that I can use at any number of locations near me.
| Parts are still made for it and I can buy them here. It has
| R17 tires, 4 wheel drive, and anti-lock braking, electronic
| traction assist, TPMS, it will tell me when there might be
| ice on the road so I should proceed with caution, it has an
| advanced cruise control system with radar and lane keep
| assist, etc., etc., etc.
| dsfyu404ed wrote:
| Because people who hate a thing are generally not the most
| knowledgeable about it and even if they know their
| judgement is clouded by hate. They only like the
| alternative to be contrarian.
|
| I'm not gonna ask PETA for tips on raising beef steers, I'm
| not gonna ask Joe Biden what gun I should buy and I'm not
| gonna ask /r/fuckcars what car I should buy. And this is on
| top of the usual Reddit circle jerks and groupthink that
| make asking for advice there for anything of meaningful
| stakes questionable in general.
| throitallaway wrote:
| "Own the libs" is a mantra for some people.
| everyone wrote:
| It is puzzling how _everything_ in the US seems to be
| _excessively_ large. If you go there it feels like u have shrunk
| by 15%
| Simulacra wrote:
| https://archive.is/xD4yE
| daxfohl wrote:
| Wow, my dad runs some apartments and he's always buzzing random
| stuff from one place to another. He complains all the time that
| pickup trucks keep getting bigger and harder to use for day-to-
| day tasks. Seems like something like this would be perfect.
| nicbou wrote:
| What about a sprinter van, or whatever you would call a Renault
| Kangoo? This is what tradespeople use in Europe. They're
| absurdly practical.
| laurencerowe wrote:
| There's someone with a lovely little Kei Firetruck in Bernal
| Heights. Makes me smile every time I walk past it.
|
| https://www.sfchronicle.com/local/article/Meet-Kiri-the-tiny...
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Funny, I was chatting with some Rural Americans while on vacation
| in the Bahamas, and they all were super impressed with the Kei
| pickups they saw while there. I didn't know you could legally
| register 25+ year old ones...
| pharmakom wrote:
| Fantastic. Now can suburban moms do the same?
| adamrezich wrote:
| why do you want suburban moms to drive their kids around in a
| small flatbed?
| throwyawayyyy wrote:
| Pretty sure the commenter is referring to what, in London,
| are called Chelsea Tractors.
| adamrezich wrote:
| sure, when I was growing up my mom drove myself and my four
| siblings around in a Suburban. I understand the baseline
| desire to signal virtue with regards to large motor
| vehicles, but even a brief glance at the photo in the
| article should be enough for any sane person to see that
| driving more than a single child around in such a vehicle
| is blatantly untenable.
|
| downvoters might also be surprised at how safe large motor
| vehicles are for transporting children, especially in areas
| with spontaneous, often-unavoidable wildlife crossing. try
| hitting a mule deer crossing the road in the dark in one of
| those little trucks and see how many kids riding (on the
| flatbed??) survive.
| theandrewbailey wrote:
| Dead on arrival. Not enough room for the kids and dogs.
| nicbou wrote:
| Europeans do just fine with multipurpose vehicles and regular
| small cars. You dont need a Strassenpanzer to bring two wee
| kids and a few grocery bags around.
| lapetitejort wrote:
| People haul kids and dogs in the beds of their trucks?
| simonsarris wrote:
| Many new trucks can fit three car seats. What was once the
| truck bed is now a smaller truck bed and a second row of
| seats. Aka a "full size cab".
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Maybe the family could loose some weight. _HA GOTEM_
| joewhale wrote:
| it's easy to throw rocks when you personally don't have 3-4
| kids.
| tshaddox wrote:
| You probably won't fit more than 2 kids in a gigantic pickup
| truck either. And you'll mostly see them empty apart from the
| driver anyway.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| A lot of the popular models have full-size back seats.
| They've got more room back there, and are easier to get at
| (to, say, strap a kid into a car seat, or to add/remove a
| car seat) than many sedans.
| pharmakom wrote:
| Please buy a minivan if this is your situation.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Why? What do you care what he drives?
| yamtaddle wrote:
| Cars much bigger, heavier, and with worse visibility than
| necessary, make the roads more dangerous for everyone
| else--motorists, bicyclists, pedestrians, _everyone_.
|
| The whole thing's turning into an expensive, dangerous
| game of prisoner's dilemma. It's best if everyone buys
| exactly as much car as they need, but anyone who
| "defects" and buys a bigger, heavier car is safer than
| everyone else, while making everyone else a little less-
| safe. Iterate for a few decades and you get the current
| situation.
|
| However, begging individuals to behave differently isn't
| going to fix the problem. Certainly not in the US.
| nicbou wrote:
| You need to rethink the incentives. Big, wasteful cars
| have no business being as cheap as a small family car.
| This was not accidental.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| Oh, for sure. The old-school conservative solution, from
| back before "conservative" meant "simply don't try to do
| good things, at all" (at least, in the US) would have
| been to try to price in the added risk to others (and
| other externalities, like extra road-wear) to discourage
| having too-large vehicles. I think that could work.
|
| Never gonna happen, because too many people think
| discouraging choices that make public roads more
| dangerous, or simply _paying for costs they impose on
| others through their choices_ , is outright tyranny, but
| hey, it's a nice idea.
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/2020-traffic-crash-
| data...
|
| > The estimated number of police-reported crashes in 2020
| decreased by 22% as compared to 2019, and the estimated
| number of people injured declined by 17%.
|
| > While the number of crashes and traffic injuries
| declined overall, fatal crashes increased by 6.8%.
|
| It's at least a somewhat common belief that the 6.8%
| increase of _fatal_ crashes despite a decrease in _total_
| crashes is caused by a perceived increase of the average
| size of vehicles on the road. A minivan is not an
| American-sized pickup truck which are commonly seen as
| unsafe for other drivers.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| Because we have to share the road with other people's
| vehicles, and bad drivers in giant pickups are a hazard
| to others' health.
| yellowapple wrote:
| While I largely agree with you, AWD/4WD minivans seem to be
| harder to find than AWD/4WD SUVs - so if you live in a
| place with both snow and hills, you're probably going to be
| gravitating toward an SUV.
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| I kinda want to take a picture of the parking lot at a
| local (Salt Lake County, UT) Costco. It's almost
| exclusively "light truck"-classified pickups and similarly
| sized SUVs. I'm sure a similar image has already been
| captured for posterity but damn if it wouldn't be useful
| for pointing to a problem.
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| You can buy Kei vans too. I've seen them, in the USA. Same
| import rules as the Kei trucks. When I lived in Chicago, a
| neighbor had one. It was 4x4 too, so great in the winter.
| Marsymars wrote:
| SUV market share is ~50%, families with >2 children are ~5%.
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| So what did people do when they had 3-4 kids in the 80s? I
| see families of 4 with huge SUVs these days.
|
| If anything they want a kei van right? It maximises the size
| of the vehicle, cuboid on wheels, and minimises the cost for
| that volume.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| They drove big station wagons.
| sgath92 wrote:
| And the station wagons got killed off by CAFE standards
| because they were treated as cars instead of as their own
| category. Taking a sedan and turning it into a station
| wagon is going to inherently make it heavier and less
| fuel efficient.
|
| So if the auto makers are already struggling to make
| their sedans hit MPG goals, suddenly those station wagons
| have to be phased out.
|
| Though to be fair, minivans start in the mid 80s and were
| very popular in the 90s instead of SUVs. Comparable MPGs
| to the wagons but felt a lot more roomy inside.
|
| The big problem came in the 2000s when the auto makers
| started subtly turning their minivans into SUVs. Even the
| last wagon hold outs like Volvo took this road
| eventually.
| themaninthedark wrote:
| But interestingly enough, a lot of new vehicles are SUVs
| that look like lifted station wagons...
|
| So we like the form factor of station wagon
| klyrs wrote:
| We didn't use seatbelts or booster seats. We rode in the
| bed of the pickup, we rode sitting backwards in the trunk
| of a hatchback, we crammed in 5-wide in the bench seat in
| the back of a sedan.
|
| Also, there were proto-SUVs like the Chevy Suburban.
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| I never had a pickup truck, but I did have seat belts and
| booster seats. We just didn't use them as much. But
| that's not really relevant to having enough space in a
| vehicle. We had plenty of space in cars. There was
| nothing wrong with the size.
| peterpost2 wrote:
| Like you can't fit 3-4 kids in a sedan. Hell most people
| have 2 cars per family nowadays should still fit easily. Or
| if you really have a large family a minivan works even
| better and is less dangerous to other travellers and
| yourselfs and has a lower gas usage. SUV's and trucks are
| stupid for 99,99% of the use cases.
| traverseda wrote:
| Station wagons are big and you could throw a couple kids in
| the back no seat belts no problem
| crooked-v wrote:
| If we could finally ditch the light-duty trucks loophole [1],
| that would probably help when it comes to the incentives to
| build certain kinds of vehicle.
|
| [1]: https://www.wired.com/story/the-us-wants-to-close-the-suv-
| lo...
| bagels wrote:
| If you're in California, this isn't for you, sadly.
| jamestimmins wrote:
| Why not? Are they illegal here?
| westhom wrote:
| You can only get them registered for off-road use. You can
| also use them on Catalina island. But no way to register them
| as street legal, legally.
| tinglymintyfrsh wrote:
| Stanford did too (the van kind) to squeeze between bollards. They
| were able to avoid CAFE and CARB standards because they're their
| own municipality, and technically they're not licensed for
| _public_ street use.
| jnmandal wrote:
| Yeah these things are awesome. Exactly what I need on my land. I
| hope to get one someday.
| tgtweak wrote:
| I see these all over the place in asiapac, especially at resorts
| for staff and maintenance to get around on smaller pathways in
| lieu of golf carts or runabouts. It makes a lot of sense when you
| consider that they are easy to move around on a small boat/ferry
| and can be used on the roads. These places also have a much high
| percentage of motorbikes, scooters and ATVs and the same
| garages/shops that service those can service these smaller
| engines with readily accessible parts.
|
| The fact they can't really be driven on interstates/highways is
| the only thing that would make it difficult to sell them here as
| new vehicles.
|
| Given how well the ford maverick is selling, and the successful
| introduction of the hyundai santacruz (and soon-to-be-introduced
| chevy montana) I think it's safe to bet there would have been a
| decent market for new vehicles in this segment if the
| manufacturers could get them highway-compatible.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| Yeah, the u.s market does not really support this variety of
| form factors and motor cars but I think EVs are going to change
| that because it's a lot easier to vary the size of a battery,
| the main primary component of an EV vehicle and just slap on
| any of a range of electric motors.
| macinjosh wrote:
| Big American trucks are like denim jeans.
|
| Jeans started out as super useful and economical clothing worn by
| miners, cowboys, etc. fast forward n years and people are paying
| hundreds of dollars for exclusive denim and designs with pre-worn
| holes and other artificial wear patterns.
|
| Trucks today look like they could be utilitarian and used for
| work but are really just an overpriced fashion statement.
| fnbr wrote:
| man, I want a tiny Japanese pickup truck
| LinuxBender wrote:
| I've seriously contemplated getting one of these. Street legal,
| fuel efficient, simple, but when I started researching them I
| started to see a pattern. It's hard to find anyone in rural areas
| willing to work on them and not all mini trucks are equal. Some
| are not shipped correctly and have frame rust issues. There are
| YouTuber's that cover some of the models and the gotchas and
| things to inspect. I would never buy one without inspecting it
| locally. I've seen a couple of them in town and the owners
| somehow manage to keep them running.
|
| I am leaning more towards a street legal side-by-side as there
| are a few dealers here and they have people to perform more
| advanced repairs. Downside is they cost more especially if I want
| a fully enclosed cab _with windshield and heater_ , something
| that is a must during the winter here. Upside is I can take it
| into the mountains and also use it to run into town for
| groceries.
|
| An upside to either of these options is that these are the
| remaining vehicles that do not _as of yet_ have any of the
| telemetry, dashboard infotainment systems, pay-as-you-go for
| subscriptions for standard features, etc...
| robocat wrote:
| Perhaps consider a visit to New Zealand and buying one there if
| you can't import one from Japan (keyword "direct import"),
| although your total costs would be high. We are friendly
| buggers over here, so you are not likely to get ripped off
| unless you are a numpty. Buy an unregistered spare one for
| parts - used farm ones without plates get sold much cheaper.
|
| https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/suzuki/carry/search --
| all used imports from Japan. Note prices are in NZD, reduce
| prices by 1/3 to get to USD. You can get GST (sales tax)
| refunded on exports but it might not be much money because
| second hand goods are zero-rated?
|
| I really wanted a 1.3 litre 4WD Suzuki Carry a few years ago,
| but they really hold their value so they were not cheap enough
| for me. USD8000 for a 20 year old ute! They are in high demand
| in NZ.
|
| I personally would avoid the Subaru mini-truck: I think
| mechanical issues and access to parts are problems. I also
| looked at the equivalent Hyundai mini-truck, but the Suzuki is
| probably the best bet.
|
| Japan has regulations that make old vehicles expensive to keep,
| so they export them before they get really old. New Zealand
| buys a lot of second hand car stock from Japan. If you need
| something 25 years old, then New Zealand might have more stock.
|
| We don't salt our roads. Anything that has spent all its life
| in dry areas like the Canterbury Plains would be best - don't
| buy if it has been long periods in wet climates. Avoid anything
| that has been on the coast - avoid sea-spray rust damage (don't
| buy from my local area, New Brighton).
| lancewiggs wrote:
| We do, however, drive on the other side of the road from
| those in the USA.
| robocat wrote:
| Yeah, but this thread seems to mainly be talking about
| left-hand drive imports.
|
| If someone does their homework, they could bring over a big
| American Ute to NZ (buy cheap in US, sell for _heaps_ in
| NZ). Need to be _extremely_ careful about NZ regulations
| though - complicated and relatively costly /risky. Ideally
| find someone in NZ that has done it for the model you want
| to do it for.
| doublerebel wrote:
| I'd recommend looking for a reputable dealer who does a proper
| shipment and inspection. Here in Seattle we have https://sodo-
| moto.com who works with fvej.com to bring vehicles over and
| ensure the quality.
| codalan wrote:
| They probably share a lot of the same drivetrain/engine/etc.
| parts from vehicles of the same era. If you are mechanically
| inclined and have the right tools, you might be able to do some
| of the work yourself. Most auto mechanics familiar with older
| Japanese branded vehicles should be able to work on them like
| they would on a regular US import.
|
| The biggest issue I have is that they are right-hand drive. I'd
| be hesitant driving a mini-truck on streets and highways, even
| if it's licensed. This would be a non-issue if the intent is to
| leave it on private property, unlicensed.
|
| I wish mini-trucks had a bigger demand here. I'd like a pickup,
| but I don't need the monster trucks that are on the market
| these days. Just something to move furniture, appliances, and
| junk around town.
| pwthornton wrote:
| There are some smaller options these days. The Honda
| Ridgeline has led the way here as a very livable, smaller
| (although not small) truck.
|
| The Ford Maverick is even smaller. It is a bit more barebones
| but it might work for you.
| codalan wrote:
| The problem with the Maverick (as others have mentioned) is
| that they squander valuable bed space by adding a cab to
| the design.
|
| To me, a pickup truck is a pretty utilitarian thing. I
| don't need a cab. I have other vehicles if I need to take
| passengers.
|
| I remember pricing out a pickup a few years ago, and it was
| hard to find one that wasn't already configured with a cab.
| I guess the market demand is larger for people who have
| kids but still want a pickup for whatever reason.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| I cannot wait for EV drivetrains to invade side by sides,
| especially ones based on sodium ion or LMP or LFP.
| itronitron wrote:
| >> the owners somehow manage to keep them running
|
| the people that depend on these vehicles are particularly tuned
| in to how to keep them alive...
|
| Years ago, when my wife and I lived in a _' rural adjacent'_
| community we had a ~20 year old manual transmission european
| sedan sitting in our driveway for about a year, tires slowly
| deflating, until one couple stopped by to enquire about it. My
| wife told them that if you can get it running you can have it,
| the husband came back a few days later to sign the paperwork,
| and after popping the hood and turning a few knobs was able to
| get it started and drove it away :)
|
| Very happy that the vehicle had an extended life with someone
| that could put it to use.
| poulsbohemian wrote:
| >It's hard to find anyone in rural areas willing to work on
| them and not all mini trucks are equal.
|
| Living in a rural area, I first saw these popping up at least a
| decade ago. The typical farmer / rancher has to be mechanically
| skilled and one of the benefits of these vehicles is that they
| are relatively simple mechanically speaking, IE: assuming
| availability of parts you could do the work yourself.
| fundad wrote:
| I guess if there's a dealer that's something but isn't it
| getting hard to get any kind of car worked on in rural areas?
| LinuxBender wrote:
| _isn 't it getting hard to get any kind of car worked on in
| rural areas?_
|
| It is. I can do some mechanical work but I have no idea what
| special tools and tricks are required knowledge with these
| trucks. At least with side-by-sides there are a myriad of
| dealers and mechanics near me as so many people use them
| around their ranches, to go into town and to go into the
| mountains. There is probably some little shop that would say
| they could work on the mini-trucks but my experience with the
| small businesses here as that most of them _fake it until
| they make it, but they never make it_. So I would be taking a
| bit of a gamble. If I found one that was cheap enough it
| might be worth the gamble as I could just write off the loss
| if it has some obscure problem. That is why I am still on the
| fence.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| SXS are overpriced and underdeliver compared to what you can
| get from a minitruck.
| leetrout wrote:
| Or even just a used jeep wrangler given how overpriced they
| are.
| asciimov wrote:
| I seriously miss compact trucks, like the Mazda B-series, Ford
| Courier, Ford Ranger (before it became a mid-size in 2019).
|
| These kinds of trucks might more to your liking. Sure they
| aren't as small and cute as the imports, but your local auto
| store can still get you parts for them.
|
| They are fun to drive, fairly fuel efficient, and are capable
| of hauling material from the home center. I learned to drive
| stick, and how to pop the clutch when you have a dead battery,
| in a Ford Courier on the high plains of west Texas.
| munificent wrote:
| I still drive a manual 2002 Toyota Tacoma and you'll have to
| claw it out of my dead hands for this exact reason. I really
| love the utility of a pick-up truck, but I absolutely despise
| the size of any of them in the US in the past couple of
| decades.
|
| I wish they still made mid-sized pick-ups that were actually
| mid-sized.
|
| A Tacoma is nearly the size of Tundra was twenty years ago,
| and a Tundra today is like the size of a damn schoolbus.
| iancmceachern wrote:
| You can get the Ford Maverick
| munificent wrote:
| A Maverick is just an open air hatchback.
|
| It's the same length as my 2002 Xtracab Tacoma, which is
| nice, but my Tacoma has a bed that's literally twenty
| inches longer.
| saalweachter wrote:
| I still long in my heart for a pickup that is as small as
| possible while having an 8 ft bed, but honestly once you
| also need to take children with you wherever you go, the
| compromise of a shorter bed with a good sized back seat
| (to accommodate car seats) really begins to make a lot of
| sense.
|
| In the end, I ended up just attaching a trailer hitch to
| my Chevy Volt and buying a lightweight 8ft trailer. As
| long as I just need to move big and not heavy, it's
| perfectly adequate, and the mileage when I'm not hauling
| is a lot better.
|
| And it cost me about $2k while keeping me out of the
| insane used truck market.
| laweijfmvo wrote:
| At 199.7 inches, the Maverick is a barely an inch shorter
| than the shortest Ranger (201.2).
| fredgrott wrote:
| The funny thing is the Ford Courier had the Mazda Body but a
| Toyota engine as I had one in high school.
| jdmichal wrote:
| The MY2022 Maverick is what the new Ranger should have been.
| And the Hyundai Santa Cruz also was introduced in MY2022.
| Finally some steps in the right direction, at least.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| A wide range of electric vehicles are going to invade to fill up
| almost all these gaps, especially once cheap sodium ion
| drivetrains and batteries become available
| tibbydudeza wrote:
| Our family car a Corolla (I drive a hatchback) was replaced by a
| Tucson and I considered it big even though it is classed as
| compact SUV in the US.
|
| Well it all made sense when I saw a Kia Telluride.
| ztetranz wrote:
| My neighbor has one. He drives around with his big dog in the
| (lefthand) passenger seat. It looks like the dog is driving.
| dsfyu404ed wrote:
| You really wanna F with people get a spare steering wheel and
| have the passenger hold it and act confused.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| New minitrucks should be legal here! If you don't need a huge
| truck, you should be able to buy something smaller.
| lastofthemojito wrote:
| You do see new minitrucks in certain non-road settings in the
| US, but yeah, they aren't street legal. Some folks import them
| for use as UTVs: https://usminitrucksales.com
|
| It's the same somewhat bizarre logic that makes it fine to
| register say, a 1969 VW Beetle in the US, but not a 2004
| Mexican Beetle that's no less clean or safe. The older stuff
| gets grandfathered in because at that age there's hardly anyone
| willing to bother. But if new minitrucks were road legal,
| they'd be everywhere, and there might be an epidemic of
| minitruck highway deaths, etc.
| gedy wrote:
| Owner of a 69 Beetle here, and similarly frustrating that I
| can't buy and bring home a Suzuki Jimny across the nearby
| border with Mexico
| angry_octet wrote:
| There's a bit of confusion here: there are modern small
| cars/vans/trucks that are safe (e.g.
| https://www.euroncap.com/en/press-media/press-
| releases/euro-...) but efficient and well designed, and then
| there are new vehicles built for a slightly lower price with
| safety features like _crumple zones_ entirely absent,
| commonly sold in Mexico. These are death traps. Many of the
| Chinese trucks (e.g. Great Wall) were like that too, but they
| do make safer ones now.
| LucasBrandt wrote:
| I'll take the theoretical chance of an "epidemic of minitruck
| highway deaths" over the current reality of an epidemic of
| traffic fatalities made worse by cars and trucks getting
| heavier, taller, and deadlier.
| yellowapple wrote:
| If these were easier to register here in NV I'd buy one in a
| heartbeat.
| falcolas wrote:
| > And unlike a side-by-side, it can also be driven legally on
| local roads
|
| Side by sides can, with a few accessories (horn, license plate
| lights, turn signals, etc), be driven legally on roads. Most
| dealers are happy to sell and attach these high profit items for
| you.
| lastofthemojito wrote:
| If you're talking about the US, state laws vary widely:
| https://outdoortroop.com/in-what-states-are-side-by-sides-st...
| LinuxBender wrote:
| Adding for completeness sake, that site is out of date for my
| state. Street legal UTV's and mini-trucks are called
| "Multipurpose vehicles" in Wyoming and can be registered to
| operate on streets and highways. They even issue these nifty
| little Wyoming license plates that are UTV sized. The
| requirements are in the linked PDF.
|
| Funny side note, my state even has a picture of one of the
| Japanese mini-trucks in the PDF. [1]
|
| I think people should look up the DoT website for their state
| to get the current legal requirements for street legal UTV's
| and mini-trucks.
|
| [1] - https://www.dot.state.wy.us/files/live/sites/wydot/file
| s/sha...
| amundskm wrote:
| Depends on the state.
| yellowapple wrote:
| The states that don't allow street-legalified side-by-sides
| are unlikely to allow imported Kei trucks, either.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| I can see the utility but most country road speed limits are
| gonna be 50 mph+. I wouldn't want to drive it there. Dirt roads
| or on your land, sure.
|
| Regardless, they look pretty cool. A cheaper option, but lower
| quality, might be some small trucks from China.
|
| It will also be interesting to see how Fords Maverick catches on.
| May not quite fill this niche but seems like a good option
| overall.
| Marsymars wrote:
| Problem with the Ford Maverick is that it's only available in
| crew cab with a 4.5 ft bed, which is really a sub-par
| configuration if your priorities are in moving stuff rather
| than people.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| And no 4wd option on the hybrid.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| Roof rack with the back half mounted to the bed or hitch can
| mitigate that to an extent. That's how I haul oversized stuff
| in a pre-2011 Ranger.
| Marsymars wrote:
| Hah, I once built a roof rack like that with my dad for a
| standard cab pickup to carry kayaks.
|
| Works great for occasional use, but still really sub-
| optimal to have an extra row of unused seat rather than bed
| space to put stuff if your primary use of the truck is to
| carry stuff in the bed.
| slackfan wrote:
| Hi, I live in the boonies, and own one of these minitrucks.
|
| a) They do 60mph ok if you have a four-speed one. Five-speed
| ones will do 70 just fine.
|
| b) country roads are generally 45 in most states.
|
| c) chinese minitrucks have a hell of a lot less support for
| about the same price.
|
| d) Ford mavericks are DOA here. If you want a work van you buy
| a work van.
| kubectl_h wrote:
| Can you expand on what you mean by DOA in this context?
| slackfan wrote:
| I see them about as much as I see the Hyundai equivalent,
| and they all appear to be owned by folks that live in the
| local capital city.
| maxerickson wrote:
| Perhaps a contributing factor is that they have a 4.5 foot
| long bed.
|
| That will at least get it perceived as not being a great
| work truck.
|
| It looks like the Honda thing is like 6.5 feet, so you are
| sticking off the back quite a lot less if you have an 8
| foot load.
| throwway120385 wrote:
| Common lumber and sheathing is 8 feet long, so having a
| 6.5 foot bed means not having to flag the lumber while
| you're hauling it. Also I can't imagine fitting a gas
| generator, 5-gallon can, gas compressor, saws, nailguns,
| hardware, and nails all in the back of that 4-foot bed.
| When I was framing people would fill up their S-10s with
| the gear.
| camhenlin wrote:
| What state do you live in that rural roads are 45? On the
| entire west coast they're at least 55 and the average speed
| is more realistically in the mid 60s. I think in some of the
| south west states the speed limit on 2 lane rural roads is
| more like 70mph
| slackfan wrote:
| 45-55 out here, realistic speeds are about the same because
| flat ground is at a premium.
| officeplant wrote:
| is the Maverick DOA? I see the all over my rural farm area
| and people are paying $8000 over sticker for the privilege of
| getting one of the few in stock.
| slackfan wrote:
| Must be somewhere in the flatlands then. The small(er)
| truck market is dominated by Toyota, Nissan and Chevrolets
| and Ford Rangers. Mavericks are mostly city-dweller mom-
| mobiles at best.
| officeplant wrote:
| Louisiana swamps. They don't want to buy many SantaCruz's
| or Ridgelines, but as soon as you show them a Ford
| Maverick they are game.
|
| Mostly driven by people who white-flighted out of the
| city and need something to pick up chicken feed and
| mulch.
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| You can't just go to a Ford dealer and buy a Maverick
| yet. The only people that have them placed an order a
| year or more ago.
|
| Wait until your local dealer has 20 of them parked next
| to their 1000 F150s before you decide on whether rural
| folks are going to buy them or not.
| nemo44x wrote:
| I'd love a Maverick for a weekend automobile for things
| like going to the countryside for the day, hiking, and
| picking things up at Home Depot, etc. for the money it
| seems like a pretty cool thing. I hope to buy a used one
| in a couple years.
|
| If I was in a rural area and had to do serious things
| with it and haul then I wouldn't be in the market.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| The new Ranger and its competition are not actually small
| trucks. They're the size of what the F150 used to be.
| fckgw wrote:
| Not at all. They sold 70k Mavericks last year and have 80k
| MY23s on pre-order. For context, the Maverick outsold the
| Ranger by nearly 50%. The main issue at the moment is they
| can't make them fast enough.
|
| I put in a pre-order for a hybrid 6 months ago and have
| probably another 6 months to wait.
| officeplant wrote:
| Sounds about right for my area too. Between the Maverick
| and the Bronco Sport Ford has managed to make a lot of
| bank off the Escape platform.
| guestbest wrote:
| I don't know if those little tires can handle muddy, unpaved
| country roads like a tractor can.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| You can mount ATV wheels on them.
| dboreham wrote:
| Be careful about speed ratings for tires and wheels.
| yellowapple wrote:
| Lift it and stick full-size tires on it. Like a miniature
| monster truck.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| The long travel side-by-sides, on the other hand, are pretty
| incredible offroad.
| camhenlin wrote:
| I've looked into one of these and they're completely illegal in
| my state, no way to register them without gaming different dmv
| stations and getting a clueless dmv rep who doesn't know what
| they're looking at, to register it. This is Oregon. Really
| unfortunate situation as these fit a lot of use cases that would
| previously require something as big as a gas guzzling Ford F150
| otherwise.
| duncan-donuts wrote:
| Why are they illegal?
| gorbypark wrote:
| Someone has to pay to have a vehicle certified (crash tests,
| emissions, figure out what's needs modified to meet US
| regulations, etc). If the vehicle was never sold in the US to
| begin with, then they can't be registered until they are 25+
| years old. Even then, it's hard/impossible in some states.
|
| My memory is a bit hazy, but at one point in time an importer
| company paid the large sums (hundreds of thousands I'm sure)
| to have a certain GT-R model go through the safety/emission
| procedures so they could be imported before they were 25
| years old. That's the only case I can think of.
| inferiorhuman wrote:
| My memory is a bit hazy, but at one point in time an
| importer company paid the large sums (hundreds of
| thousands I'm sure) to have a certain GT-R model go
| through the safety/emission procedures so they could be
| imported before they were 25 years old. That's the
| only case I can think of.
|
| If memory serves, there were a couple people importing R32
| Skylines. The one shop stopped doing the necessary work and
| got caught. Nobody wants to do the work because it's
| extremely expensive and bureaucratic. The problem with
| relaxing the rules is that you're either going to accept
| more pollution or heavily restrict the number of vehicles
| that can be imported creating an unfair lottery type
| situation. Keep in mind that other countries, especially
| Japan, were a lot slower to require pollution controls.
| IIRC California and Germany were pretty quick to phase out
| leaded gasoline, but most other countries (e.g. France)
| were much slower. The safety stuff should be easier to
| harmonize for imports, but there's still a lot of bullshit
| in DOT regulations (e.g. everything about US spec
| headlights).
|
| IMO a step in the right direction would be to carve out
| some exceptions for EV conversions.
| IntelMiner wrote:
| Why would they be illegal? Surely Oregon has "small cars"
| 7speter wrote:
| It might be because they dont meet safety standards (being
| 25+ years old and tiny) or because its right hand drive...
| tgtweak wrote:
| I think most people register them out of state for this reason
| - Minnesota and Arkansas being the two go-to (also for
| bypassing vehicle road-readiness inspections...).
| RoyGBivCap wrote:
| I wish I'd known this. Oregon's bi-annual "emissions test"
| where they hook up the inspection machine to the ODB port and
| let the car lie to it is absurd. When I first heard about it
| I assumed they'd put some device on the exhaust. _They do
| not._
| winrid wrote:
| CA is the same way.
|
| I really wish it was tailpipe based. I liked the PA
| emissions laws where you could improve the efficiency of
| your vehicle and it would pass. Not so in CA, must be
| numbers matching and CARB certified parts/combo.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| As someone else living in the PNW, I've read that people in
| Oregon permits kei trucks, but won't allow them to be
| registered and to work around this, people will register them
| in Washington and then bring them down.
| ke88y wrote:
| _> Really unfortunate situation as these fit a lot of use cases
| that would previously require something as big as a gas
| guzzling Ford F150 otherwise._
|
| What about the Ford Maverick? The only issue is that the bed is
| fairly small, but it looks like these minis have small beds and
| low towing capacities as well? And Ford makes a hybrid version.
|
| (Don't misunderstand: I'm not arguing against relaxing the
| rules in Oregon.)
| tgtweak wrote:
| The sales of the Maverick have really made a compelling case
| for an even-smaller truck that is one size down. I don't even
| think ford thought it would sell that well. The Maverick is
| still a giant truck compared to these.
| 7speter wrote:
| I thought the whole appeal for the maverick was that it was a
| hybrid truck that you'd be able to drive around a city (Ford
| marketing, itll be fine to drive anywhere probably)?
| nluken wrote:
| The Ford Maverick is better than most modern pickups, but
| still misses the mark. As you mentioned, the bed is
| significantly smaller than a 1990 Ranger despite being 6
| inches longer[1]. Honestly the biggest issue I have with
| these vehicles is their height, which is a known hazard to
| pedestrians[2]. The Maverick doesn't fix that issue.
|
| [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36651899/sizing-up-
| the-20... [2]
| https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2022/03/pedestrians-
| incr...
| im_down_w_otp wrote:
| You could actually probably get this onto a state-wide ballot
| as a measure to be voted on in Oregon. The bar to get things on
| the ballot isn't particularly high.
| rhema wrote:
| There's a truck exactly like that a block away from where I live
| in my rural town.
| Syonyk wrote:
| The local Mahindra dealer also seems to be doing a brisk business
| with their Roxors - they're almost literally a 1950s Jeep with a
| modern diesel engine in them. It's the same market niche - small,
| off highway use, utility vehicles.
|
| And at least out here, you're allowed to run around on the roads
| at least some with them to get between fields.
| officeplant wrote:
| I've seen some very questionable old jeeps cruising around that
| I suspect were Mahindra's with a CJ2 tub on them.
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| It's a shame that Roxor isn't street legal. We live about 2
| miles from our city's downtown. I'd absolutely love to have a
| little car that I take into town.
| dabluecaboose wrote:
| Depends on where you live, there _are_ street-legal kits and
| some places allow off-highway driving for side-by-sides.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| I presume you're not in USA - I can't imagine being allowed to
| import the Mahindra copy-paste Jeep into USA. Those clones are
| so blatant... Wish they added some more Indian flair to them. I
| can't believe jeep still bothered to enter the Indian market
| with that on the roads!
| paxys wrote:
| Jeep's design is close to a century old at this point. Why
| should it still be legally protected?
| yellowapple wrote:
| They don't even look all that much like Jeeps. Like yeah,
| some similar design elements, but that's true of pretty
| much every sedan or crossover or SUV or what have you on
| the market today.
| dsfyu404ed wrote:
| Trademark protections. FCA sued. IIRC Mahindra redesigned
| the grill in response.
| Syonyk wrote:
| I'm very much in the rural mountain west USA.
| nicbou wrote:
| I've seen what Mahindras can do in Nepal. These things are
| amazing.
| dabluecaboose wrote:
| > they're almost literally a 1950s Jeep with a modern diesel
| engine in them
|
| For those who aren't aware, Mahindra secured a licensing
| agreement with Willys in 1947 to make them. They're actually as
| close as you can get to a modern Willys Jeep, so much so that
| they were sued by Chrysler for infringing on Jeep's trade dress
| by looking too much like a Jeep brand Jeep
| sircastor wrote:
| My wife was really interested in doing this the last time we were
| talking about a new vehicle. We looked at a lot of trucks and
| micro vans. There are plenty of people who have done it. My
| biggest hang ups were related to the variability of laws about
| microtrucks across states. Some places I can drive it like any
| other vehicle. Others it's limited to non-highway travel and
| locality.
|
| Also not being able to see the vehicle firsthand before
| purchasing.
|
| They're inexpensive though. That's nice.
| efields wrote:
| I wonder how much of the "Americans want big cars" is just "car
| manufacturers _sell_ big cars and not much else" ... then there's
| the whole SUV loophole that gets them around emissions regs.
|
| The Ford Maverick is great and around 20k but at this point I
| want 100% electric.
| throwway120385 wrote:
| I would buy a Maverick tomorrow if it had leaf springs instead
| of coils.
| iancmceachern wrote:
| Along these lines is the Mahindra Jeep knockoff they're about to
| start selling here
| kubectl_h wrote:
| I've seen a few of these in Maine in driveways and yards/fields,
| but only recently have I seen a couple on the road. I was
| surprised to see them. I believe JDM vans cannot be registered
| here but perhaps that's changed recently.
|
| If made illegal to drive on the roads it's not clear why these
| would be preferable to side-by-sides, other than novelty or for
| folks that really like to wrench.
| cdchn wrote:
| Has to be 25+ years old then you can import/register it no
| problem.
| officeplant wrote:
| In the US Kei cars/trucks are handled differently by each
| state. We had to vote to get them approved to drive into the
| cities here once enough farmers had them and kept begging for
| the laws to change. Although for us it stems from having them
| imported as farm equipment.
| piperswe wrote:
| Registering it does depend on the state: I've heard some
| states will prevent you from registering them due for
| emissions or safety reasons, even though they're federally
| legal to import
| kubectl_h wrote:
| In 2021 Maine cancelled all of the registrations for these
| vehicles, so it's a local regulation. Sounds like it was a
| wording issues. Looks like there is a bill introduced to fix
| this: https://gearjunkie.com/news/maine-bill-reinstate-
| revoked-del...
| cdchn wrote:
| A lot of people are using Vermont registration to get a
| title then transferring it to their home state, but I'm not
| sure how well that works everywhere.
| twalla wrote:
| These vehicles (mostly their van equivalents like the Delica and
| Hi Ace) are also popular with rural mail carriers since they use
| their own vehicles and right hand drive enables them to deposit
| mail without leaving the car.
| fractallyte wrote:
| I used one of these - a van - as my daily driver some years ago.
| It was great! A surprising amount of volume in the back, yet
| small. It wasn't fast, but it was maneuverable, easy to handle,
| and economical. And reliable! It _never_ failed to start, even on
| subzero days, after weeks of standing still.
|
| It was powerful enough to haul serious weight. The engine labored
| somewhat, and one could definitely feel the increased momentum of
| the vehicle.
|
| I had some doubts about the front crumple zone - there really
| wasn't much that could absorb a head-on impact. But it never
| became an issue..
|
| If I had similar transport needs again, I'd get one of these vans
| without hesitation.
| poink wrote:
| I'd love a tiny truck as my primary vehicle, but after watching
| Doug DeMuro review an imported kei car van
| (https://youtu.be/yyTJTUNgsVU) I realized I could never feel
| comfortable driving one of these on the highways around here.
|
| What I _really_ want is something like the Ford F-100 Eluminator
| concept.
|
| https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021...
| officeplant wrote:
| We've been importing them to Louisiana for 20+ years now.
| Although for the longest time they were only legal to drive like
| a farm truck (up to 40 miles from the farm) and only on 55mph or
| less roads. They also had limiters installed so they couldn't go
| over 55mph, not that its hard to remove the tiny flap of metal
| they installed to keep the throttle from opening fully.
|
| There is one farmer we used to call the used kei truck salesman
| because at any given time he has 10-20 of these in his yard for
| sale fresh off the import boat.
| swalling wrote:
| It's not just rural Americans. Japanese 4WD vans, SUVs, and
| trucks are super hot among Portland hipsters looking for city-
| friendly vehicles for cargo or road tripping. There are some
| importers here locally that this is all they do now, like
| https://www.javan-imports.com/ The other highly desirable vehicle
| among this crowd are the J60 series Land Cruisers from the 80s,
| for fashion reasons more than functional ones though.
| nyx wrote:
| The 25-year import rule here, which bans Americans from importing
| vehicles from other countries unless they're 25+ years old, is
| just awful for those of us who would be interested in driving
| small, efficient foreign cars.
|
| It would be great to live completely car-free, but absent major
| changes to how we plan our cities, it's just a sad reality that
| cars are a necessary ingredient to life in the vast majority of
| America. To cope with this, I'd love to be able to import a kei
| car or van from Japan, or micro-sized European city cars, or even
| some of the very small EV city cars that we see in China... but I
| just can't, unless I want an overpriced pile of scrap from the
| 1990s.
|
| It's all so much worse when you realize that the 25-year rule is
| a holdover from a grey-market import scare of the mid-1980s[0]:
| European carmakers, namely Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche, were
| having trouble in the US with people importing European models of
| their cars. There were some valid concerns around inconsistent
| modifications for US safety standards, but the main issue was
| clearly that these grey-market imports were cheaper than buying a
| US model from a dealer, so profits were being missed. Instead of
| fixing the pricing discrepancy, they just successfully lobbied
| the government to enact this draconian 25-year ban, and so to
| this day I can't have a 2020s Japanese kei car shipped to a US
| port at my expense because it'd be illegal to register it.
|
| [0] https://jalopnik.com/the-25-year-import-rules-history-is-
| mor...
| deelowe wrote:
| That rule ain't changing unfortunately. Regulatory capture is
| STRONG with automotive and the US sees it as a matter of
| national security (car makers would be pivoted to other ares in
| times of war).
| nostromo wrote:
| This isn't regulatory capture or protectionism.
|
| Half of all cars sold in the US are imported.
|
| Toyota, a Japanese company, is the most popular brand of car
| sold in the US.
|
| So, yes, you can import cars all you want, they just need to
| be safe and not pollute. These cars do not meet those
| requirements, so you can't import them.
|
| If you didn't block them as imports, we'd have lots of people
| just go to Mexico and buy highly-polluting vehicles to save
| money, and our problem with smog in the border states would
| be much worse.
| civilized wrote:
| > You can import cars all you want, they just need to be
| safe and not pollute. These cars do not meet those
| requirements, so you can't import them.
|
| This is clearly untrue. If this were the case, the rule
| wouldn't make an exception for 25+ year old cars.
| nostromo wrote:
| That exception exists for car collectors.
| [deleted]
| birdyrooster wrote:
| So what you are saying is Tesla is building China's future
| factories for armor.
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| How easily could they retool for an event like that? I think
| I've just hatched a conspiracy theory for why all our
| vehicles are absurdly sized...
| asveikau wrote:
| I thought the standard conspiracy theory was that they
| started making them larger to avoid environmental
| regulation (which is pretty ironic).
|
| Here's the first google result for "large cars regulation
| loophole", looks like an interesting read:
| https://www.wired.com/story/the-us-wants-to-close-the-suv-
| lo... Edit: prior HN discussion here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35609521
| Our_Benefactors wrote:
| More easily than if the factory doesn't exist at all.
| seizethecheese wrote:
| Check out US history during WWII. Auto manufacturing was
| even pivoted to airplanes. Things must be more specialized
| now but I assume it could still happen quickly.
|
| My personal belief is this also explains American bias
| towards planes over rail.
| woooooo wrote:
| Every country's history in WW2. Even Italy had tanks made
| by Fiat.
| moltar wrote:
| You can still find plenty of amazing vehicles, in great
| condition in the South of Europe. The weather there is great
| and cars don't deteriorate as much. I see plenty of Toyotas and
| Hondas from pre 97 models. They still cost around 3-4 K EUR
| probably because they are such an easy maintenance that they
| will still drive for another decade and that's priced in.
| jmrm wrote:
| Please, don't buy our cars here in Spain. Most of people
| here, specially young people, cannot afford a new car with
| our 1100EUR/month after taxes of mininal wage and our
| 350EUR/room /month (in cheap places) on the flats we usually
| live.
|
| With that situation, we usually buy cars before 2005 or so,
| and we pay those 3k to 4k euros in those, and usually with
| over 250 000 km (155 000 miles). Depending on the model, they
| even can be more expensive than people would think: A late
| 90s Nissan Terrano would cost from 6k to 7k, and my current
| car, a Korean one that cost about 13k in 2012, now cost from
| 9k to 11k (unless it has too much mileage or isn't in a
| decent shape).
| Glawen wrote:
| It is just cargo cult. The value of these old Toyota and
| Honda makes no sense. I was looking to buy an old Toyota
| because of the hype on internet, but there are not a lot of
| them being in Europe, and 70% of them had an engine issue
| (threads holding head gasket were missing, common issue on
| aluminium engine).
|
| At one point, I pondered buying a Toyota previa with this
| head gasket issue for 3K and planed to repair it myself.
| Fortunately I got my sense back and bought a Renault Scenic
| with no issue at all, 2K and I managed to have also the
| timing belt replaced. Yes, internet thinks that because it is
| a French car, it will crumble. Well internet, so far it had
| no issue and its head gasket is intact.
| chair6 wrote:
| We love our quirky, slow 1993 Mitsubishi JB500 campervan
| (https://www.instagram.com/finnthejb500/), but the experience
| is not for everyone. We were able to register it in Washington
| without too much hassle. It definitely pays to do some research
| and try to find a local-ish mechanic willing to work on them
| before you make the purchase.
| inferiorhuman wrote:
| The 25-year import rule here, which bans Americans from
| importing vehicles from other countries unless they're
| 25+ years old
|
| That's _not_ what the rule is. That 's the end result because
| nobody wants to spend money to get a foreign market car to meet
| the relevant safety and emissions standards.
| nyx wrote:
| Yeah, that's completely right, but as you said in another
| comment, there's some real bullshit in the FMVSS that to me,
| a complete layperson, seems like it has the sole effect of
| blocking the certification of perfectly safe and clean modern
| vehicles from other advanced nations.
|
| Of course we shouldn't be allowing people to import some
| pollution-spewing deathtrap that doesn't have seatbelts--the
| FMVSS regulations do exist for a reason--but I think we
| should be taking a more critical look at our regulations,
| especially as compared to other places at the same
| socioeconomic level.
| inferiorhuman wrote:
| perfectly safe and clean modern vehicles from other
| advanced nations
|
| A lot of what's being discussed are neither perfectly safe
| nor clean by American standards.
|
| The UK, for instance, allows pretty much anything with
| wheels to be registered (e.g. the Peel). Euro NCAP is
| merely advisory, you can still sell/buy a death trap.
| Pollution as well. Want an early 90s Figaro or S-Cargo or a
| late 00s Hijet? Those were sold without cats or fuel
| injection. Want something cheap and Euro? Cool. The cheap
| shit is often cheap because it pollute so much it can't be
| driven in city centers.
|
| A lot of the bellyaching is over cars that the
| _manufacturers_ couldn 't justify fixing up to meet
| American standards.
| eduction wrote:
| You can import new tiny cars and drive them all you want on a
| farm or private grounds, you just can't take them on roads if
| they don't meat road safety standards.
|
| Even the advocate highlighted in this article (Economist)
| admits his would probably be a "death trap" on a busy highway.
|
| Maybe the US should create separate standards for city streets
| and roads with low speed limits, that could be a good way to
| bring down vehicle sizes. But just allowing these things just
| anywhere seems like a recipe for increased fatalities. For
| every HN reader who would use theirs wisely there are 10
| average Americans who would risk maiming.
| kube-system wrote:
| > Maybe the US should create separate standards for city
| streets and roads with low speed limits, that could be a good
| way to bring down vehicle sizes.
|
| They already have!
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_vehicle
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicl.
| ..
|
| But it's a hard sell when the US has so many high speed
| roads.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| States vary. Some disallow them on all highways, others allow
| them on State highways, not Federal....
| nostromo wrote:
| What would be the point of safety and emissions regulations if
| we let everyone bypass them by importing vehicles from abroad?
|
| The vehicles meeting the requirements wouldn't be competitive
| on price because they'd be playing by a different set of rules.
| shawabawa3 wrote:
| Why would foreign vehicles be exempt from safety and
| emissions regulations?
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| Because vehicles over a certain age are grandfather-
| exempted.
| joshspankit wrote:
| Seems better to just enforce the same emissions regulations
| on imported vehicles
| bragr wrote:
| Besides 25 year limitation, the regulations are a main pain
| here as it can be difficult to comply with the letter of
| multiple overlapping regulations, and have the
| certifications for those. I know headlights end up being a
| pain for people trying to import cars to the US as all
| headlights must meet DOT standards. Rinse and repeat with
| every regulation affecting every part of the car.
| taeric wrote:
| I believe the point is that older vehicles are exempt from
| newer rules, regardless of where they are from. Is why I
| can legally drive my 2000 truck, despite it almost
| certainly being less than up to current standards.
|
| I think there is a reasonable logic that scrapping the
| truck would probably be pretty bad for the environment,
| such that some of the standards are "water under the
| bridge", as it were. The rest of the logic almost certainly
| falls on the numbers just not mattering? I don't know.
| linguae wrote:
| California has an answer to that: imported cars are generally
| required to meet the same emissions standards as cars
| intended for the domestic market:
|
| https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-registration/new-
| regis...
|
| From the California DMV's web page on direct imported
| vehicles: "If your direct foreign import vehicle was not
| originally manufactured to meet California emissions
| standards and DOT FMVSS, the vehicle cannot be registered in
| California, unless the vehicle is modified and tested under
| CARB's direct import program."
|
| Based on research that I done years ago, my understanding is
| that the modifications required to get many foreign vehicles
| to conform to California's emission standards, combined with
| the testing fees (which is far more expensive than the cost
| of a traditional biennial smog check), make it prohibitively
| expensive for casual buyers to legally register imported
| vehicles in California.
|
| Some people get around this by registering their vehicles in
| other states where only the EPA 25 year rule applies;
| occasionally in California I do see cars with their steering
| wheels on the right side with Nevada or Oregon license
| plates. However, California generally requires its residents
| to have their vehicles registered in California.
|
| One thing I'm curious about is whether California allows
| direct imported vehicles to be converted to run on battery-
| backed electric motors as a legal modification. If this is
| the case, then the vehicle would certainly pass the emissions
| test.
| triceratops wrote:
| It's even less likely that a 25 year old vehicle will meet
| current safety and emissions regulations.
| nostromo wrote:
| The amount of those vehicles will obviously be limited.
|
| Removing it would allow people to buy cheap cars in places
| like Mexico, that have loose emissions standards, and drive
| them around California, which has some of the most
| stringent emissions standards in the world. Not to mention
| the safety requirements issues...
| triceratops wrote:
| So only allow imports from countries with emissions and
| safety standards equal to or greater than American ones.
|
| I don't understand why the age of the vehicle should
| matter.
| inferiorhuman wrote:
| That's already the case. You _can_ legally import a
| modern kei car if you can modify it to meet relevant
| safety and emissions standards. You can import any modern
| car. I imported a 2001 BMW from Canada a few years back
| and it was a breeze because it already had the EPA
| stickers and BMW NA signed off on the safety stuff. You
| can import a non-compliant car (e.g. some carburetted kei
| car with minimal safety equipment) if you bring it up to
| the US standards that were in effect at the time. Nobody
| wants to bother does not mean that nobody _can_.
|
| The 25 (well I think DOT is 20 years and EPA is 25 or
| vice versa) means you can import shit without it having
| to meet relevant federal standards. States (e.g.
| California) will still want to see proof it doesn't
| pollute too much, and CARB tests are _expensive_. Sates
| like Washington will let you register pretty much
| anything with wheels which is how you see a lot of non-
| US. market cars for sale out here with Washington plates.
| throwway120385 wrote:
| More importantly it also allows us to import reasonably-
| sized 4WD trucks from other countries instead of having
| to decide between a mini-van or a station wagon.
| FanaHOVA wrote:
| > micro-sized European city cars
|
| I see plenty of Smarts and Fiat 500s in San Francisco
| voisin wrote:
| I wish the actual story was "US manufacturers announce line of
| small, Japanese style pickup trucks"
|
| Importing adds friction both up front and for ongoing sourcing of
| parts and maintenance. Just give us some options for local pickup
| trucks utilizing existing repair facilities! Instead everyone
| bitches about truck drivers having such large vehicles, when
| that's all that's on offer here!
| elboru wrote:
| RAM sells a small truck in Mexico called RAM 700 and it's
| getting popular for work purposes (specially in urban areas). I
| have no idea why it's not being sold in the US market.
|
| https://www.motor1.com/news/447996/2021-ram-700-debut/
| paxys wrote:
| Kinda ironic that big city dwellers are buying larger and larger
| trucks every year just to take them on grocery shopping runs
| while rural farm workers are moving in the opposite direction for
| actual hauling.
| Marsymars wrote:
| I don't know how much they're moving in the opposite
| direction... my dad was a rural beekeeper for many years and
| had a series of compact pickups (Toyota pickup, Nissan
| hardbody, Chevy S10)... and then he changed careers around the
| time you could no longer buy new compact pickups in NA. I
| expect that the number of compact pickups in rural areas hasn't
| actually been going _up_ in the years since.
| rsync wrote:
| While you are correct that urban Americans LARPing ranchers
| are, indeed, buying larger and larger trucks I don't see
| _actual_ farmers /ranchers downsizing.
|
| I live on a working ranch and while our truck is very _boring_
| ( "work truck" - basically a fleet vehicle with no options) it
| is still quite large as it has an 8' bed, etc.
|
| I think we could make good use of a battery powered vehicle
| with a small cargo area and we definitely make good use of the
| aforementioned full-sized truck ... but I don't find these
| mini-pickups appealing or interesting.
| wepple wrote:
| The article cites someone who purchased a kei truck instead of
| a side-by-side, so it doesn't imply that rural folks are moving
| away from trucks.
|
| If anything, the urban folks are buying bigger cars/trucks and
| rural folks are buying bigger sxs/ATVs
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