[HN Gopher] Will boiling water ruin green tea?
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       Will boiling water ruin green tea?
        
       Author : tmtvl
       Score  : 44 points
       Date   : 2023-04-21 19:01 UTC (3 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.myjapanesegreentea.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.myjapanesegreentea.com)
        
       | johnea wrote:
       | HN DDoS'd...
        
       | colordrops wrote:
       | As I get older I notice my senses get less refined and weaker,
       | especially smell and taste, and especially after a couple covid
       | infections. This on top off constant distraction and stress makes
       | it nearly impossible for me to taste any subtlety in things like
       | coffee and tea and wine. To be frank I'm jealous of these people
       | that can dedicate all this time and passion to various techniques
       | and flavors.
        
         | kayodelycaon wrote:
         | From experience, if it's not a passion or priority, it helps
         | externalize the decision process. Have a friend (or online
         | service) who does the research for you. Then you buy the
         | minimum equipment (a temperature controlled kettle and a
         | strainer) and a few teas. When you get time, brew them to the
         | instructions. If you have some free time, you can start it with
         | a cup of tea.
         | 
         | There no need to get massively invested.
         | 
         | This is how I learned to paint minis. All I did was buy some
         | unpainted ones and drop by a friend's place. He has all of the
         | supplies and equipment. All of my unpainted minis are in his
         | closet. :)
         | 
         | Edit: By having a friend, I mean if you have a friend who is
         | into tea/coffee/wine/etc. I enjoy hanging out with people who
         | have hobbies I wouldn't pick up on my own.
        
       | andix wrote:
       | It will make it taste bad (bitter). It's similar to overcooked
       | pasta. Not ruined, but not good either.
        
       | kayodelycaon wrote:
       | All teas have "optimal" temperatures and brew times. A lot of
       | green teas do not work well being boiled into bitter
       | disappointment. Before I had to give up caffeine, I recall
       | Gunpowder green tea being less tricky to get right. :)
        
       | fatfingerd wrote:
       | I don't think their analysis about caffeine is correct and
       | doesn't cite sources. I've seen a lower temperature for a longer
       | time more often being ideal for maximizing caffeine vs other
       | components in pubmed research on teas, I.e.:
       | 
       | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21339166/
       | 
       | If one does a lower temperature for a longer time it is often
       | also equivalent to boiling for a very short time a.f.a pathogens.
       | I think the relative bitterness is probably higher for higher
       | temperature brews after normalizing on caffeine.
        
       | cinbun8 wrote:
       | I sorta knew this from experience, that high temperature would
       | make the tea bitter. But why is this on HN?
        
         | triyambakam wrote:
         | Wouldn't you have this reaction to at minimum 50% of all HN
         | submissions?
        
         | kwhitefoot wrote:
         | Because coders drink tea?
        
           | politelemon wrote:
           | Coders like <T>
        
           | pacaro wrote:
           | Except for the Marxist coders who only drink herbal infusions
           | 
           | Because proper tea is theft
        
         | mudita wrote:
         | Are you familiar with the Hacker News Guidelines
         | (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)?
         | 
         | "What to Submit
         | 
         | On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting.
         | That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to
         | reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that
         | gratifies one's intellectual curiosity."
        
       | sva_ wrote:
       | Sadly, boiling water will absolutely ruin matcha. But I'm too
       | hooked.
        
         | drooopy wrote:
         | I can confirm. Matcha tastes like crap when made with boiling
         | water.
        
         | FartyMcFarter wrote:
         | If you like it so much, it's probably worth buying a kettle
         | with temperature control.
        
           | sva_ wrote:
           | Oh I don't need it, I have an eye for it.
           | 
           | I meant that the matcha powder probably has pollutants which
           | might get decreased by boiling it, as the article suggests,
           | but that would ruin the flavor.
        
       | taraparo wrote:
       | the german tea expert Ernst Janssen recommends to also use
       | boiling water to prepare green tea as most of the teas are
       | contaminated with germs and other things. different green tea
       | brands including organic tea brands were tested by the renowned
       | German test.de magazine and they confirmed that, also most of
       | organic teas are contaminated. and since this is nothing you can
       | easily check at home, better use boiling water.
       | 
       | https://www.ernst-janssen.com/tee-almanach
       | https://www.n-tv.de/ratgeber/Stiftung-Warentest-bewertet-gru...
        
         | zokier wrote:
         | That seems paranoid considering that I have never heard anyone
         | getting food poisoning from tea, no matter how it was brewed.
         | 
         | edit: Reading the linked article, it seems mostly concerned
         | about contaminants and not germs. Intuitively thinking, I'd
         | imagine higher temps would end up extracting more of those from
         | leaves to the drink than lower temps?
        
           | taraparo wrote:
           | > I'd imagine higher temps would end up extracting more of
           | those from leaves to the drink than lower temps?
           | 
           | that is actually an interesting aspect.
        
           | StrangeATractor wrote:
           | Yeah it seems so dried out you wouldn't have too much to
           | worry about.
           | 
           | As for boiling tea for sanitation, I took a wilderness first
           | responder class and they taught us that you could bring water
           | to a boil at any altitude a human can breath at (without
           | holding it at a boil for 15 minutes as some claim) and it's
           | considered sterilized. In Cusco, that would be around
           | 191F/89C (humans can breathe quite a bit higher up than
           | Cusco). Not a bad tea-brewing temp!
           | 
           | Also, I suggest trying kukicha. It's high in l-theanine and
           | lower in caffeine. Tasty too.
        
             | nijave wrote:
             | I think it's a halflife/timing thing. Once it hits boiling,
             | it's instance death for most microbials.
             | 
             | You can keep it a lot lower for longer but it's also
             | potentially difficult to tell the temperature (easier to
             | say, bubbles? It's hot enough)
        
             | brianwawok wrote:
             | > Yeah it seems so dried out you wouldn't have too much to
             | worry about.
             | 
             | How about the people touching / sneezing on it in the
             | packaging factory?
        
               | elif wrote:
               | If you source your green tea from a Japanese tea farm,
               | this is really not a concern. Farm workers all wear
               | gloves and masks, and the tea leaves are harvested
               | directly from the tea bushes to a net via a machine.
               | 
               | Additionally, the tea plants are covered by cloth for up
               | to a month before harvest, dramatically reducing the
               | chances of bird droppings.
               | 
               | They are also steamed, rolled, and dried by mechanical
               | devices which remove virtually all moisture.
        
               | nijave wrote:
               | Not sure about most things transferred via touch/sneeze
               | but I imagine lack of moisture would cause anything
               | living to die fairly quickly.
        
           | morsch wrote:
           | The germ thing seems to go back to this 2005 press release by
           | the BfR, which does indeed urge people to use boiling water
           | to kill Salmonella particularly when preparing herbal tea. It
           | doesn't cite any known cases or numbers: https://mobil.bfr.bu
           | nd.de/de/presse/presseinformationen/2005...
           | 
           | Searching further, there were a couple of cases of Salmonella
           | in infants in 2003 that were traced to fennel anise tea. The
           | timing fits. I couldn't find anything more recent, but I
           | didn't look very hard.
           | 
           | https://www.ernaehrungs-
           | umschau.de/news/16-07-2003-salmonell...
           | 
           | Here's more data from government sources. They tested tea and
           | herbal tea in 2008, and found traces of Salmonella or E.coli
           | in 2-3% of prosecute products, and mold in 20%. Doesn't
           | differentiate between herbal and real tea.
           | 
           | https://www.lgl.bayern.de/lebensmittel/warengruppen/wc_47_te.
           | ..
           | 
           | I'm not worried. But then I usually use boiling water, or
           | almost boiling water, which should be enough to kill micro
           | organisms. And I'm sure I get more mold toxins from various
           | other food sources without noticing it, cereals, nuts,
           | processed foods etc. Tea is a dilution, after all.
        
         | stametseater wrote:
         | All foodstuffs are contaminated with germs, unless you go to
         | extraordinary effort to prevent it (e.g. intense gamma
         | radiation.) Unless there is some particular reason to care
         | (you're a hospital feeding people who had their bone marrow
         | nuked by cancer/chemo), then the correct solution is to stop
         | caring. Who ever heard of people dropping dead because they
         | brewed their tea with sub-boiling water? This isn't happening,
         | it's not something you should worry about.
        
           | Vecr wrote:
           | Do they really use gamma, or just electron beams like in a TV
           | tube?
        
           | thfuran wrote:
           | People mostly get by fine without boiling their salads but
           | they do occasionally get e coli or something.
        
           | taraparo wrote:
           | they even found salmonella in tea. to kill them one would
           | need to heat the tea constantly above 70 degree Celsius over
           | a period of ten minutes.
        
             | punnerud wrote:
             | 71degC for 1/2min to kill salmonella, instantly with 74.
             | 
             | 10min is around 64degC.
             | 
             | Remember that the cup often cool down the water 10-15
             | degrees. So the water should not be under 90degC from the
             | boiler to be safe.
        
         | LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
         | Dreck reinigt den Magen. Stellt Euch nicht so an, Ihr
         | Weicheier!
        
       | prophesi wrote:
       | There's a lot of factors to it. The way the leaves are processed,
       | the quality/freshness of the leaves, ratio of leaf to water,
       | steeping time.
       | 
       | I think in general it's safest to brew green teas at 175f. But
       | I'm doing quick gongfu brewing sessions with a late-march sichuan
       | green tea, and it tastes great at 205f. Less intense at the usual
       | 175f, but picks up more subtle flavors.
        
         | triyambakam wrote:
         | I appreciate the connoisseur vernacular
        
           | prophesi wrote:
           | Becoming a tea snob helped me stay away from alcohol during
           | quarantine :/
        
             | InitialLastName wrote:
             | Becoming a whiskey snob just made me wish I could abide
             | cigar smoking.
        
       | tmtvl wrote:
       | TL;DR no, but it will make it bitter and astringent because more
       | caffeine and catechins will be extracted.
        
         | PuppyTailWags wrote:
         | It depends on the green, though. Good-quality green tea from
         | China can often withstand higher temperatures or long brewing,
         | to the point where it's normal to just pinch some tea in a mug
         | and refill with hot water throughout the day.
        
           | archagon wrote:
           | IIRC, Chinese green tea is a completely different beast from
           | Japanese green tea like sencha.
        
           | zokier wrote:
           | I wouldn't say it is matter of quality; or rather lot of
           | high-quality teas can still be quite sensitive to high temps.
           | Gyokuros mentioned in the article are good example
        
             | PuppyTailWags wrote:
             | Please re-read my post that I said _from China_
             | specifically. Gyokuro, a green tea primarily of japanese
             | make and style, does not apply to what I said. I 'm
             | thinking of gan lu or mao jian style teas.
        
               | dima55 wrote:
               | The article this thread is commenting on is about
               | Japanese green tea, hence the confusion.
        
       | olivermarks wrote:
       | I drink ridiculous amounts of English Breakfast tea with 1% milk
       | every day. The water HAS to be boiling when it hits the tea. You
       | cn really tell the difference if the water is less than boiling.
       | Same but more subtle with green tea imo
        
         | dima55 wrote:
         | Do you actually drink not-bottom-of-the-barrel sencha? If not,
         | your experience is not applicable, respectfully. With even
         | middle-of-the-road sencha the difference is far from subtle.
        
           | olivermarks wrote:
           | I always thought Sencha was different to green tea, steamed
           | leaves, more subtle?
        
           | galangalalgol wrote:
           | 15% of people don't taste bitterness in the same way. Hops
           | taste floral and a bit sweet to me and I like to chew on
           | Artemisia species my family finds hideously bitter. I could
           | put cheap gunpowder green tea in a percolator for an hour and
           | it wouldn't taste bitter to me. Perhaps the gp has the same
           | trait?
        
       | Avshalom wrote:
       | I took the simple precaution of moving a mile above sea level.
        
       | calebm wrote:
       | Yes. I've tried it - makes it obviously more bitter.
        
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