[HN Gopher] Technology of water in ancient Iran from prehistory ... ___________________________________________________________________ Technology of water in ancient Iran from prehistory to the Islamic Golden Age Author : benbreen Score : 132 points Date : 2023-04-24 17:44 UTC (5 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.nature.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com) | ginger2016 wrote: | Glad to see ancient Iranian culture featured here. People in the | west have a lot of misconceptions about Iran. Persian culture is | thousands of years old. | chocolatelab82 wrote: | I agree. Not to mention Farsi has some of the most beautiful | proverbs. | jagaerglad wrote: | Just a minor pet peeve but why not keep calling the language | "Persian" in English? Just how it doesn't feel entirely right | to suddenly start calling Spanish "Espanol" in English, or | Swedish as "Svenska" and so on | InitialLastName wrote: | My (open to correction) understanding was that "Farsi" has | some use in referring to the Iranian standardization of | Persian (as contrasted to Dari, its Afghani counterpart). | behnamoh wrote: | Both are correct. "Farsi" is actually the Arabic version | of "Parsi" (meaning "Persian" in, well, Persian). As a | Persian, I personally don't use "Farsi". | rvense wrote: | Yes, it is useful when you want to contrast Iranian | Persian with other varieties used in Afghanistan, | Tajikistan etc., but when talking about all of them | together it is confusing. | dr_dshiv wrote: | If they ever wanted to increase tourism, just consider: | | 1. Would you like to visit Persia? | | 2. Would you like to visit Iran? | ybinator604g3 wrote: | It is so unfortunate. I am from Iran and I much prefer | the current name. It's an ancient name that includes not | only Persians, but also Medians, Partians, etc. Iran has | been multi cultural since old times and it's nice to have | an inclusive name. I believe after we throw the occupiers | (mullahs) out, we have a lot of work to do. | | The only weird thing with the name Iran, is that it | literally means "The Land of Aryans" which got a bad rep | after Nazis (rightfully so). | dr_dshiv wrote: | If you ever get a chance, read "the education of Cyrus" | by Xenophon. It is so good. The way he brought together | so many cultures is amazing. | | It's not just about an empire for the Persians. (But | Persia is pretty good branding, that's all) | samstave wrote: | And where modern Maths come from... Mosques tile | embellishments are actually 2d representations of 4th | dimensional math concepts... | | - | | Jeasus I have to explain this on HN? | | -- | | https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11235-medieval- | islami... | | https://muslimheritage.com/new-discoveries-in-the-islamic- | co... | | etc... much learning you need | voz_ wrote: | Iranian culture is beautiful. Food, architecture, music, | literature. All corrupted by the ayatollah and fanatic | religious powers that dominate the country. It is unfair to | blame the west for its misconceptions when the outward | presentation of that country is currently so anti-western, | corrupt, and oppressive. | soperj wrote: | They were replacing a West installed dictator... Don't know | if it's entirely the Ayatollah's fault here. | eternalban wrote: | There was no installation. Please stop repeating IRI's | propaganda line. Iranian society was divided between | nationalists, fundamentalists, and communists. | | The "Ayatollah's" in fact started the mess by assassinating | the previous prime minister (who is never discussed) who | was also "democratically elected". This was not the first | Islamist terror in Iran. Again this is before the counter- | coup of '53. (Yes, the first coup detat was by the famous | "democratically elected PM", Mr. Mossadeqh.) | | Iran had a constitution that precisely defined the roles of | the Majlis (parliament) and the monarch. This monarch was | sworn in as king in the Majlis way before '53. Kindly | explain how he was "installed" in '53 by the CIA. | | The "Islamic Republic" is a blight in the history of Iran | _and_ Islam. Their little project of creating the Islamist | Vatican is an abomination in Islam. Their ridiculous | "Supreme Leader" is another abomination, both for Iran and | again for Islam. Islam is the religion of deliberation of | assemblies and no man is "supreme" amongst the Muslims. | propagandist wrote: | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27eta | t | | Let's call it instigation. | hobo_in_library wrote: | The CIA literally admitted to master-minding and funding | the coup | | Weird that anyone is still in denial after that | eternalban wrote: | The CIA is an intelligence agency and has no obligation | to tell the truth. | dragonwriter wrote: | > This monarch was sworn in as king in the Majlis way | before '53. Kindly explain how he was "installed" in '53 | by the CIA. | | Basically, the Shah assumed direct rule in an autocoup | (after a first failed autcoup) in an effort he was | threatened with being deposted by the CIA into | participating in, with US- and UK- and their Iranian | pawns both orchestrating pro-Mossadegh anti-Shah | demonstrations and violence, then pro-Communist anti-Shah | anti-Mossadegh demonstrations and violence, and, | ultimately, the pro-Shah military moves directed against | the waves of violence and lawlessness that they | themselves had sponsored. | eternalban wrote: | The extent of Shah's concessions to US security concerns | was allowing CIA to create monitoring stations north of | Iran: listening posts. A section of the secret service in | Iran (SAVAK) was specifically tasked with keeping tabs on | Western intelligence in Iran. The second one, which was | withdrawn after public pushback lead by Khomeini, was | exempting American servicemen and workers (mostly | aerospace in Isfahan) from legal jeopardy for any | offences in Iran. That was rather toady. | | Former enemies: | | https://www.mofa.go.jp/region/n-america/us/q&a/ref/2.html | | "Cousins": | | https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/176895/SN06808.pdf | | (it's a question of power asymmetries. Really did the | poor Shah have any choice? Related thoughts: Is the | Japanese PM "Installed" by US? Is the UK PM a "puppet" of | US?) | | And to be quite frank, as an Iranian born, the assertion | that some American (Kermit Roosevelt) gets off the plane | with a briefcase full of dollars and overnight "installs" | the constitutional king of Iran is bascially a hidden | insult to Iranians. What sort of a entirely pushover | nation are they, these Iranians? It's a bad propaganda | joke. | | Secondly, the fact remains that the roughly 14 years | (60s-early70s) that Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, yes as an | autocract oversteppingn the bounds of the constitution, | ran the place, Iran experienced its singularly most | spectacular years in the 20th century. And the social | progress, specially women's rights, are all due to the | efforts of that man and his "regime". | | US has nothing to apologize to Iran about viz a vis the | Shah other than backstabbing a loyal ally in a time of | crisis, and actively helping to usher in _an entirely | alien_ system, the "Islamic Republic of Iran"*, to | power. | | US chose Islamic Fundamentalism as a stretegic tool to | further its geopolitical goals, and unleashed the hords | on the world. US does need to come clean about that. | | * (3 lies in one name, a world record!): It is not a | republic. It is not Islam. And it certainly is not | Iranian. | voz_ wrote: | It's been 44 years, I think we need to stop giving | countries a pass like this, at a certain point, their | destiny is their own. | andrepd wrote: | Counties live in the shadow of things that happened | thousands of years ago... 44 years is barely a | generation. | forgetfulness wrote: | The Iranian regime is absolutely brutal at repressing | revolt, the revolts are also violent but of course | nothing can match a state apparatus that has to shut the | country to the outside world to hide the massacre; the | country has been in a state of civil unrest for the | better part of the past 6 years and I count the Wikipedia | estimates at some 4000 dead from the response of state | actors. | istajeer242 wrote: | You do realize that western policies to this day have | emboldened the mullahs in power? These sanctions just | increase their control, and US govt obviously knows it. | So much border trade occurs in spite of the actions, and | mullahs garner more control. Nuclear deal was another | case. | mkoubaa wrote: | Yeah, why haven't they overthrown a brutally repressive | regime? Haven't they heard of Ghandi? | | Please - don't do this. You don't know how hard it is for | revolutions to succeed | user982 wrote: | For all of those 44 years, the US has been continuously | sanctioning, attacking, isolating, and threatening Iran. | voz_ wrote: | Maybe if they didn't sponsor terrorism around the world, | while oppressing their own people, they wouldn't get | sanctioned? The find out part of fuck around doesn't mean | they don't control their own destiny. Plenty of normal | countries to look at for example. | andrepd wrote: | That's a weak argument, as we (the West) sponsor many | terrorist or oppressive regimes as long as it is in our | economic or political interest. The US sponsored brutal | and even genocidal regimes from Guatemala to Timor. | | Talking about morality and "fighting terrorism and | oppression" is laughable. | factorialboy wrote: | This is so true. The original Persian culture is best preserved | in India among the dwindling Parsi community. These are the | original Persians who escaped to Gujarat, India during the | Islamic colonization of Persia. | cactusplant7374 wrote: | Once I get a second passport I'm planning to go to Iran. I | studied Farsi in college and visiting Iran has been a dream of | mine for a long time. With the second passport I'm hoping it's | accepted so I can travel freely without a tour guide. | falaki wrote: | You may also enjoy Tajikestan. You should have no political | restrictions to travel there. | [deleted] | dr_dshiv wrote: | > Persepolis Fortification Tablets, dated back to 492-457 BC in | the reign of Darius the Great, are characteristic examples of the | Achaemenid records, most of which have not been translated (Root, | 1997). Of the ~30,000 clay tablets (10,000 intact pieces, 10,000 | more or less complete ones, and probably more than 10,000 | fragments), 2100 texts were transcribed, interpreted, and | published (Jones and Stolper, 2008) | | This is a great example of something I wish more people knew-- | there exist so many historical texts that are untranslated. I | work on Latin and Greek texts--I just can't believe the stuff | that has never been translated. | falaki wrote: | Another shocking historical fact: cuneiform script was first | deciphered using the Behistun Inscription, which has the same | text in three different languages. But then, Persian texts were | completely ignored by historians and all the attention shifted | to other Mesopotamian tablets. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behistun_Inscription | ybinator604g3 wrote: | Maybe a bit off topic but it's always strange when someone says | "Islamic Golden Age" when talking about Iran. Nothing against a | specific religion. It's like saying Newton's work came during | Christian Golden Age in Europe. The religion had nothing to do | with it. In fact, there is a book [1] (in Persian) title "Two | Centuries of Silence" that talks about the significant blow to | Iran's culture, literature and science after Arab invasion [2] | that it took two hundred years to somehow get back on track. | | [1] https://web.sas.upenn.edu/persian/2018/09/06/talk-two- | centur... | | [2] Since I've mentioned this, I need to add that the focus of my | statement is the nature of such "invasion" and not a certain | ethnicity. No malicious intent here. If you are an Arab and | reading this, hello neighbors! with love from Iran :) | behnamoh wrote: | True. During the Golden Age, most Persian scholars and | scientists had to write their books in Arabic to preserve them | in libraries. Most Persians had to choose Arabic names. That's | why when people see a Persian mathematician like this one | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi, | they might think he was Arab. | | Fun fact: The word "Algorithm" comes from this guy's name! | someotherperson wrote: | Persian influence was incredibly important, in fact the Islamic | Golden Age is marked by Persian customs being absorbed into | daily living with the establishment of the Abbasid caliphate. | | So if you're feeling like it's taking value away from Persian | history, instead, try to see it from the perspective that | Persians are a large part of the reason why the Golden Age is | even a thing :) | ybinator604g3 wrote: | The other day I was watching Neil deGrasse Tyson on Joe Rogan | show and he was talking about Islamic Science and how | Algebra, Astronomy, etc. come from Islam. I was baffled as an | Iranian. I get that there is this anti muslim rhetoric | lurking around and these people are trying to fight it. I | assume they are well intentioned but in doing so they are | doing the same thing that they advocate against. | | But I like your point of view. | andrepd wrote: | Ah the famous historians Neil deGrasse Tyson and Joe | Rogan... | | Better to head to /r/askhistorians with those kinds of | questions. | mkoubaa wrote: | How dare they, the arrogant fools, talk to each other | | /s | agumonkey wrote: | Seems like a lot of reknowned arab thinkers were from the | most eastern parts of the arab empire (aka persia). Al | Kwarhizmi was born near what is current uzbekistan IIRC. | dendriti wrote: | It's difficult to separate Persian history from Islam during | the Golden Age of Islam in Persia. | ybinator604g3 wrote: | While intertwined, History and Religion are two different | concepts. Of course one can differentiate between them. | dredmorbius wrote: | Applying labels is always fraught and involves compromises. | "Islamic World" is well-established and generally recognised. | It's also more nuanced than hot takes suggest. | | Peter Adamson, host of the _History of Philosophy Without Any | Gaps_ podcast and author of the book series from the same | project, devotes roughlythe first 20 minutes of his Google Talk | about Islamic Philosophy to the matter of why "Islamic World" | is in fact the most useful term to use, in contrast to | alternatives such as "Arabic" (obviously inapplicable to | Persia), "Islam" (fails to acknowledge the role of non-muslim | religions, including Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, | etc.). | | <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=_NKi-XRZ4KI> | | As Adamson notes, it would be more accurate to call mediaeval | European philosophy "Christian Philosophy" than to call the | philosophical tradition of south-Western and south-Central Asia | "Islamic Philosophy", as effectively all mediaeval European | philosophers were Christian. Adamson also notes that philosophy | of the Islamic World draws heavily on Greek and Roman | philosophy (largely via the Byzantine empire) as well as Indian | and African philosophical traditions. | | "Islamic" refers to not merely the religious foundation, but | the greater cultural, political, legal (Islamic jurisprudence | is a major factor and influence), etc., etc. As with many other | contexts, "dominant influence" does not mean "exlusive" or even | "majority", but "that which has the greatest overall impact in | a specific area". (Cue numerous tedious HN discussions over | questions of "monopoly" or geographic applicability of toponyms | such as "Silicon Valley" (contrast "Hollywood" or "Bollywood"). | nashashmi wrote: | The reason it is called the Islamic golden age is because of | the Islamic empire that connected the innovations of the east | to the west. Muslims themselves didn't directly have any | contributions other than their philosophy and attitude | unleashed from a reformed Arabian expansionism. The places they | touched and the bridges they made changed everyone and all of | history. | | The Renaissance of Europe is directly a result of the Islamic | golden age. The vikings who conquered Italy sought to learn | both Sicilian Arabic, and Italian causing a bridge between | Europe and the middle east of North Africa. | throwaw12 wrote: | > The religion had nothing to do with it. | | I would disagree with it. | | Imagine if, Islam was opposing to the idea of science, as the | largest religion of that area (which not only included Iran, | but many others), what would happen? Science would have been | abolished, stopped immediately. Instead, Islam encouraged | people to learn more science, even greek philosophers work was | translated by hiring Christian people. | | On the other hand, economic and political prosperity after | conquering many places helped people to calm down and focus on | science, helping other people, coming up with solutions for | different issues. | | I think Islam had direct impact to the science of that era. | BuffaloBagel wrote: | I think Persians of that era would not make a distinction | between religious and governmental rule. | ybinator604g3 wrote: | Could you please elaborate? | falaki wrote: | 100%. As I said in another thread, it took many centuries for | the majority of the Persians to convert to Islam. Most of the | population were not even Muslim during the "Islamic Golden | Age." | | A good parallel is the Mughal Empire in India. The rulers where | Muslim but the population was not. | whatever1 wrote: | Religions only tolerate progress when it does not interfere | with their power. That why religions are cool with math. | | Now if you go to physics and biology, oh well depending on the | age you were born there is some risk of losing your head. | bsnnkv wrote: | I found it interesting that despite the protests in the comments | from users who appear to be Iranian, the authors of this paper, | who decided on the use of the term "Islamic Golden Age", | themselves both appear to be Iranian based on their names | (Saatsaz = Watchmaker/Horologist) and the transcription style | used (Rezaei). | Rygian wrote: | Water management in southeastern Spain, the Alpujarras region, is | a fascinating topic. | | The local communities maintain very precise irrigation ditches | ("acequias de careo") midway along the mountains. During the | months of rainfall and snowmelt, the water flowing along these | ditches is soaked into the ground up to the point where the ditch | ends because all the water has been absorbed underground. | | Months later, the water from each such acequia springs out clean | and fresh at a specific location further down the mountain, while | the weather is dry, and can be used for irrigation at a time that | would be otherwise impossible. | | The absolute differences with Iran's qanats are: zero | infrastructure to develop underground, as all the water | circulation happens along natural underground waterways, and | clean, fresh water thanks to the layers of slow ground | filtration. | | It is my understanding that this system was put in place during | the Muslim period of the Alpujarras, based on knowledge from | Middle-Eastern dynasties whose people relocated to Spain. That | seems to match the "Islamic Golden Age" period described in the | article | agumonkey wrote: | so they use the mountain as a buffer to delay flow until summer | ? | falaki wrote: | That "Islamic Golden Age" is a complete misnomer. It hides the | religious diversity of the geography. Many don't know that it | took many centuries for the majority of the population of the | Iranian plateau to convert to Islam. For a good part of what is | referred to as "Islamic Golden Age" Islam was not the dominant | religion. | | Similar story applies to India. Up until 17th century, India was | ruled by "muslim" rulers. Should all the cultural and scientific | achievements of that period be attributed to "Islam?" | alphakappa wrote: | Sorry to be pedantic, but not up until, but from the 15th | century or so (Babur) until some time in the 18th century | (Battle of Plassey). And not all of India but a northern | region. Indian history and geography are just too vast to be | contained in simple phrases (including what I said above) | TulliusCicero wrote: | Islamic Golden Age I find is less about attributing results to | Islam, and more just a shorthand to referring to certain parts | of the world currently known as "the Islamic World". And yeah | the idea is that they were Islamic at that time, and maybe | that's not entirely accurate, but it's not as much "this | happened specifically _because_ of Islam ". | breezingfast wrote: | [dead] ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-04-24 23:00 UTC)