[HN Gopher] The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our ...
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The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken
aeromedical system
Author : oxfeed65261
Score : 38 points
Date : 2023-04-29 18:24 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (admiralcloudberg.medium.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (admiralcloudberg.medium.com)
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| Some of the most commonly prescribed antidepression medications
| can in certain populations actually increase the risk of suicide.
|
| In addition, if you look at the mass killings that have made the
| news, it seems that most of not all of them were on some type of
| antidepressant.
|
| There may be a link that is worth exploring further, but there
| are some very strong interests that would be opposed.
| leetrout wrote:
| I briefly held a student pilots license, issued my exemption, due
| to kidney stones. I have suffered from depression for years and
| was extremely reluctant to seek treatment because I knew it would
| be detrimental to flying.
|
| My primary care doctor had me try lexapro in 2018 and even though
| I hadn't flown in 2 years I protested but reluctantly agreed I
| needed to do something and it was unlikely I would ever fly as a
| private pilot for many factors and should go on with treatment.
|
| I know for a fact pilots hide all kinds of medical issues. I had
| a doctor that worked with delta pilots and argued my case with
| the FAA (a formality more than anything) and he along with
| everyone at flight school advocated for keeping my kidney stones
| to myself and not disclosing it in the first place.
|
| The system needs some work. I have first hand experience with it
| without my livelihood being on the line and its easy to imagine
| why pilots hide issues.
| ericpauley wrote:
| The situation has improved dramatically in the part 91 world.
| If you received a 3rd class (including special issuance) within
| the past 10 years you can likely now do BasicMed as long as
| your condition is well managed. Might be worth looking into
| before the 10 year limit expires.
| adhd1110101 wrote:
| See part 3 which specifically names the 4 drugs that are
| permitted with a special issuance. https://www.faa.gov/ame_gu
| ide/app_process/exam_tech/item47/a...
| ericpauley wrote:
| If they already have a non-revoked 3rd class from before,
| though, having used one not on this list may not prevent
| getting BasicMed. Even if you're technically eligible for
| an SI you should just do BasicMed and not risk it if you
| don't have to. Disclaimer: not an AME, YMMV.
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| Sounds like an ethics problem more than a regulatory system
| problem. The long term solution is not reducing the incentive to
| lie, it's better and more extensive moral education to increase
| personal reluctance to lie. Why is that the better solution?
| Because it has profound benefits that extend far beyond this
| specific scenario / industry.
| ledauphin wrote:
| Ethics is not reducible to "learning not to lie." There's also
| "not using sweeping generalizations to dramatically affect
| individual's lives" and "using authority the way it was
| intended instead of shrinking from the responsibility granted
| by the will of the people" and a whole other host of ethical
| issues that apply to the various aeronautical administrations.
|
| Brainwashing alone does not an ethical system make. You
| generally have to act ethically in order to teach other people
| to do the same.
| Qem wrote:
| Great report! But I missed some discussion on the role workplace
| bullying may have contributed to mental deterioration of the
| pilot. At time of the crash, I remember reading some reports he
| was mocked by colleagues due to working as a flight attendant
| before becoming a pilot. IIRC they even nicknamed him "Tomato
| Andy", after the red uniform of flight attendants used by the
| company.
| oxfeed65261 wrote:
| Admiral Cloudberg (Kyra Dempsey) writes detailed, thoughtful
| analyses of airline disasters. In many cases, subsequent
| improvements have made a disaster type unlikely to recur. This
| one (the suicide/mass murder of Andreas Lubitz on Germanwings
| flight 9525) is an exception, and the article makes a strong case
| that significant changes are needed but are not being pursued.
| The archive is full of fascinating, riveting accounts of what
| happened, why, and how for many different tragedies.
| owenmarshall wrote:
| I do enjoy Admiral Cloudberg's work!
|
| > In the aftermath of the crash, experts proposed various
| measures intended to reduce the risk of pilot suicide,
| including a rule that there must be two crewmembers in the
| cockpit at all times. ...] Shortly after the crash of flight
| 9525, the European Aviation Safety Agency began encouraging the
| policy in Europe in order to gather data about its
| effectiveness, but after the trial period was over, the results
| were not encouraging. [...] the policy leaves the cockpit door
| open for longer periods of time, increasing the risk of
| hijackings, which historically have been much more common than
| pilot suicides anyway.
|
| This seems to be the crux of the matter.
|
| I've seen it argued that the _only_ sensible post-9 /11
| security measure was reinforcing the cockpit door. Extra
| screenings, shoes off, no liquids - all this seems secondary at
| best, security theatre at worst, when compared to denying an
| adversary control of an airplane.
|
| Having said that, I've also heard the theory advanced that even
| a reinforced door isn't needed: passengers mental models have
| shifted from compliance to active resistance, and 9/11 may be
| impossible to repeat as a result.
| di4na wrote:
| If this is the crux of the matter you took away from this,
| you probably missed the point by a lot...
|
| Can i recommend a rereading of the last 3 part, the one about
| medical conditions killing pilots careers and how it
| incentivise them to hide a lot of conditions?
| owenmarshall wrote:
| Pilot suicides leading to death of flyers is incredibly
| rare, as even the article indicates. But I'm not qualified
| to say what impact an intervention - even one that appears
| outwardly positive - could have.
| dhsysusbsjsi wrote:
| Great article, but unfortunately the lying is entrenched
| culturally. The regulator is so distrusted it can never change.
|
| For example in Australia I've heard multiple cases of somebody
| proactively seeking counselling for help dealing with temporarily
| stressful situations such as divorce, then being grounded at
| work, and the regulator (CASA) denying medical clearances. This
| increases the stress.
|
| Every time some senior person proclaims "it's okay this time -
| report your illnesses", it never is, and we go around this circle
| again and again. I will personally _never_ report my medical
| history accurately to the regulator.
| di4na wrote:
| It can change. The regulator could start doing positive
| examples of temporary grounding and supporting the pilot. There
| are all kind of active actions the regulator could take that
| would change things over a few decades.
|
| But first the regulator need to take action and keep doing it.
| imoverclocked wrote:
| This sounds like learned helplessness. Of course there is
| something they can do. There are a lot of things they can do to
| become better.
|
| The medical profession is almost unrecognizable from what it
| was in the 1950s. My grandfather (MD) said as much 15 years ago
| before passing away. It has only changed more since then. The
| FAA's policies are based on 1950s medical knowledge and
| opinions.
|
| If you spend any significant time in online aviation circles,
| medical issues come up _daily._ People who had a diagnosis of
| ADHD as a kid (when getting diagnosed with it was all the rage)
| have to jump through insane hoops if they disclose that on
| their FAA medical. Meanwhile, existing pilots often avoid going
| to a doctor or seeking help when they need it because of the
| possibility of losing their source of income, temporarily or
| maybe even permanently.
|
| So, in many situations, instead of having healthy pilots, we
| have unhealthy pilots. The policy sometimes has the complete
| opposite effect of its intended purpose.
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(page generated 2023-04-29 23:00 UTC)