[HN Gopher] Dutch town installs bat-friendly red LED street ligh... ___________________________________________________________________ Dutch town installs bat-friendly red LED street lights (2018) Author : maxwell Score : 103 points Date : 2023-05-08 19:18 UTC (3 hours ago) (HTM) web link (electronics360.globalspec.com) (TXT) w3m dump (electronics360.globalspec.com) | 1letterunixname wrote: | Seems like something Austin would do, but anti-grackle* lighting | would be a better use of funds. | | *Grackles are small corvids that are fearless, loud, and | annoying. | TylerE wrote: | " Despite a currently robust population, a recent study by the | National Audubon Society of data from the Christmas Bird Count | indicated that populations had declined by 61% to a population | of 73 million from historic highs of over 190 million | birds.[12] As a result, it is now classified by the IUCN as | Near Threatened." | dudeinjapan wrote: | Kavinsky should move there. | AngryData wrote: | I don't understand why red light is not the default for night | lighting and street lamps and maybe even car headlights. Red | light allows you to see while still maintaining your night | vision. Blue or white or whatever other color you use will ruin | your night vision and only allows you to see what is decently | illuminated and anything outside that zone becomes invisible. | cronix wrote: | The US Navy agrees with you, and is one of the reasons why | interior lighting in ships/subs is red during battle so you can | quickly switch between daylight and red without eye adjustment. | Plus it looks cool. | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi1R2UK3OTA | spurgu wrote: | Yeah I have red LED lighting in my boats for night lighting | and also use the red light almost exclusively on my headlamp | at night when camping, to maintain my night vision. | munificent wrote: | _> will ruin your night vision_ | | But it takes about 45 minutes for your eyes to fully adapt to | darkness. | | So if we were to use red lighting at a level of illumination | that assumes fully adapted eyes, it means people won't have | sufficient brightneses for the first 45 minutes of their drive, | which is likely most of it. | GloriousKoji wrote: | Stop signs will be the same color as everything else. | Hamuko wrote: | Stop signs have a unique shape to them, as well as a big STOP | text written on them. | excalibur wrote: | The white-on-red text is going to be very low contrast | under a red light. The shape is still supposed to be | unique. | argondonor wrote: | The blue tint disrupts your sleep cycle and helps keep you | awake when driving at night. There's definitely a trade off to | be had depending on where these lights are located though. | TylerE wrote: | Red is also really low contrast, at least at non-night-vision | destroying lumen levels. | Galaxeblaffer wrote: | says what evidence? it's pretty much been debunked for a long | time, and the whole premise is apparently based on bad | science. I'm pretty sure i read an article here on hn that | showed that this whole blue light scare was based on old | science with extremely limited sample sizes and extreme | exposure. i tried to link to an article from 2016 that still | says that it affects sleep because i hastily read the first | part. trying to dig up the article i read seems to be hard, | but at least I'm still pretty sure that the science is not | settled on the matter at all. | | earlier posted article | https://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-04-debunking-digital- | eye... | mainframed wrote: | Do you always link to articles supporting your opponents | view? (Hint: read the last section of the article) | joshvm wrote: | If you're referring to melatonin then the science really | isn't that clear. Most light suppresses melatonin | production. | | One of the biggest arguments against blue light | (specifically) being disruptive is that the sky spectrum | in the evening is also blue (so naturally you'd be | exposed to it). Modern airliners use blue lights for | overnight flights with red lights at "dawn". I suspect | screen brightness is more of an issue than any particular | colour. | mlyle wrote: | The dynamic range of the eye is confusing for aspects | like this. | | The amount of blue light you're exposed to from the night | sky is trivial. Outdoors on a moonless night is 0.002 lux | (of which, my understanding, about half is airglow and | fairly blueish). | | Compare to a not-too-bright single blue LED in your | bedroom, emitting 0.5 lumens. You could spread that over | 2000 square feet of surfaces and still have more blue | light around than comes from the night sky. | TylerE wrote: | Lux != lumen. Lux is lumen _per unit area_. | BenjiWiebe wrote: | Isn't that what they are saying? 0.5 lumen spread out | over 2000 sq feet is still more lux than the night sky? | mlyle wrote: | Yes... that is why I divided by area. Read again. | moremetadata wrote: | [dead] | mainframed wrote: | I'm not referring to anything. I just found it hilarious | that the guy, to whom I replied, linked an article which | contradicted himself. | | I have no stance on this. I don't even care. I can sleep | well at night. | Galaxeblaffer wrote: | touche.. | TheRealPomax wrote: | It's not really the "blue" part. It's the "forcing yourself | to be awake when you shouldn't be" part that disrupts your | sleep cycle. Driving at night when you should be in bed is so | much more the problem than whatever color the light is. For | you as human at least =) | ketzo wrote: | That's the point -- the blue is to help break the cycle | further and keep you awake, when your body insists | otherwise! | KennyBlanken wrote: | Our eyes are the least sensitive to it so it requires more | light (which means more overall brightness, which actually | makes your night vision worse and limits visibility of | everything not lit, because your iris closes more) and it | provides poor visibility/contrast and no color vision. | | The only advantage red light offers is not disrupting your | circadian rhythm. | | Airplane instrument panels are lit with white. Saab, Volvo, and | plenty of others use white or nearly white light for their | dashboards. | | Blue is used in theater only because it is less noticeable to | the audience when it spills or reflects somewhere it shouldn't. | | The real question is: especially with even 10 year old car | headlights being so much better than the utter trash car | headlights were 30 or more years ago, why are we still wasting | so much energy, and impacting wildlife, and hurting millions of | people's circadian rhythms, blasting streets with light all | night? | | There isn't even any argument in terms of public safety; | there's never been any proof that lighting reduces crime. Lack | of lighting forces people up to no good doing things where they | shouldn't be, to use lights themselves - which stands out much, | much more than someone doing something they shouldn't be under | outdoor floodlights. | derefr wrote: | > why are we still wasting so much energy, and impacting | wildlife, and hurting millions of people's circadian rhythms, | blasting streets with light all night? | | For pedestrians? | | (I agree with your reasoning as it applies to highways, but | most of the world's light pollution from overhead street | lighting comes from lighting done either 1. within dense | cities, or 2. within industrial complexes -- in both cases to | aid people walking around outside at night.) | mgaunard wrote: | I actually find that my visibility on highways is worse for | the parts that are illuminated by streetlights than for the | parts that are only illuminated by my car. | | I've found for example that it's extremely dangerous to go | beyond 180kmh (110 mph) at night whenever there are street | lights, while it's sort of ok if you just have side mirrors | on the highway reflecting your own lights (not that I | recommend to anyone to drive at such high speeds, | especially in low visibility conditions). | smolder wrote: | Bright night time lighting is often installed here as | "security lighting". Meaning the bright light is primarily | there to make people uncomfortable and not commit crimes. | The pink-orange glow of sodium bulbs was so nice and | inviting compared to all these daylight blue parking lot | projectors. I wish I lived somewhere where outdoor lighting | needed a permit and the issuing authority rejected | everything above X lumens or Y color temperature. | elric wrote: | As a pedestrian, I'd be much happier with a LOT LESS light | at night. Though I have to admit that the overhead street | lights aren't my biggest concerns (except for the newer | awful white/blue LEDs). Car headlights are what really piss | me off. Heck, even tail lights can blind me at night. | AlecSchueler wrote: | The Netherlands has many streets that are designed as "low car" | streets or "bike first" streets. | | The white lights are important for road safety but the Dutch | have developed methods of softly discouraging the kind of | traffic that makes the road dangerous. | | This is especially common in residential areas. Most town | centres are pedestrianized but retain brighter lighting as they | can still be quite busy public areas in the evening. | rocqua wrote: | Technology connections (youtube channel) did a video about | this. There was a trade-off between night vision and circadian | rythm disruption vs driver safety. | | Cooler light is better at keeping people awake and alert, and | people drive safer when they are alert. Given that car | accidents are a major cause od death, that is a hard point to | compromise on. | qbasic_forever wrote: | Yikes isn't this a nightmare for some colorblind people as the | red light will not be clearly visible or provide much contrast | for what they see? | cultureswitch wrote: | Good thinking, but this isn't how colorblindness works. | qbasic_forever wrote: | Alrighty but the color blind person I know says otherwise and | can't use red headlamps... | munificent wrote: | That's not how red-green color blindness works. | | They are still able to perceive illumination from red lights. | They just can't distinguish its hue from green as well as | others. | qbasic_forever wrote: | Right which is why I say it will screw with their contrast. | | I say this because someone I know who is colorblind can't use | a red headlamp when outdoors. A lot of people use red lights | to preserve their night vision, but for this person they | can't see clearly with it vs. a white light. | smolder wrote: | Not unless there's a specific type of blindness I'm unaware of. | Color blindness only impacts color perception, not perception | of luminosity, AFAIK. | 1letterunixname wrote: | San Jose, CA has/had low pressure sodium lights to reduce light | pollution for the benefit of Lick Observatory on Mt. Hamilton | since at least the early 1980's. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lick_Observatory | KennyBlanken wrote: | It's not to reduce light pollution, it's to have all the light | pollution be in an exceptionally narrow band that the | observatory can then filter out. | | The reason LED lights are so terrible for astronomers is | because although they require much less light to achieve the | same visibility, the spectrum is very spread out across | multiple peaks, with different manufacturers having different | peaks. | pbhjpbhj wrote: | It would be nice to get an update from the submitter or some | other friendly soul -- are they still used, what reactions and | outcomes have they had? | MonaroVXR wrote: | My cousin lives in that village, I will need to ask about it. I | lived very close by, let me ask it. | mikepurvis wrote: | If the initiative was discontinued, it hasn't been in the news: | https://news.google.com/search?q=Zuidhoek-Nieuwkoop | mwattsun wrote: | I spent months underwater on a submarine and we used mostly red | lights in the sleeping quarters and the control room. I don't | know the theory, but I figured red lights don't produce the | momentary blindness of looking at a white light. | alephxyz wrote: | Red light doesn't overlap as much with the sensitivity of the | rod cells in our eyes which are responsible for night vision | (see https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1416_Color_Sensi | ti...) | cyberpunk wrote: | I think they look pretty cool too: | https://www.themayor.eu/uploads/image/file/1031/medium_batst... | Kognito wrote: | Looks like something out of a horror movie. | | Does remind me of the old low-pressure sodium street lighting | that was popular in the UK when I was growing up. They'd glow | pink for a while when they first turned on, before turning a | deep orange. | nemo44x wrote: | We had those in the USA as well. If you kicked the pole hard | enough you could make it go out for a few minutes. | | the light they produced was the best and I wish we still used | them, or at least an LED that mimics the orange color. | cubefox wrote: | I remember being teached pole kicking as a drunk | teenager... | petre wrote: | I think sodium lights are more pleasant than red light | district themed street lighting. | seba_dos1 wrote: | They're still around here in Poland. I don't think they get | installed anymore, but where they still work fine they're | still there. | | I love them. That's the best night-time lightning out there. | Blueish LED lightning is unsettling in comparison. These | orange street lights are comfortable to eyes and make the | streets look pretty. | actionfromafar wrote: | Love the sodium lights. The white LEDs here have a blinding | spectrum, also are installed so they glare straight into | your eyes. Insane. | throwawayben wrote: | big positive of the LED lights is much less light | pollution, but I do wish they could be warmer | actionfromafar wrote: | It's _exactly_ the other way around. Now I 'm afraid this | is some kind of common misconception, like "not only are | LED great when it comes to efficiency, they don't pollute | the light either!" | xyzzyz wrote: | Sodium light is actually pretty great from light | pollution perspective, because it is extremely easy to | filter it out, as it is a very narrow band. Astronomers | prefer sodium lamps, for example. | actionfromafar wrote: | Dead moths prefer sodium lamps too, or something. | Currently, LEDs are kind of stupid, too. The parking lot | outside my home has fixtures with builtin LEDs which will | last, like forever. So there's no need to make the LEDs | replaceable like a bulb had to be. | | Except they _do_ break (they dim into a faint glow, and | the brown out completely) and they have to replace the | whole fixture. | rocqua wrote: | They were common in the Netherlands like 15 years ago. | cultureswitch wrote: | Cool but very weak | AlecSchueler wrote: | It's really all you need for eg walking the dog at night. | I've only seen them used on streets where cars are very rare | especially in the evening. | dahwolf wrote: | Dutchie here. I haven't see these red LEDs become widespread | although I do sometimes see dim green lights on bicycle paths. | | Another interesting regulation here is related to insulation. | Small bats tend to get inside walls and under roof tops. As | people are improving insulation en masse, this act may kill or | displace these bats. So you have to check for them and make | amends if they're there. A common and easy way is to attach a bat | home to your house. Some of them are really cool: | | https://media.s-bol.com/gJJMmEXxPyRr/781x1200.jpg | | I love my little bat friends. During summer months I can time | their forage session to the minute. Then I just watch them circle | around the garden picking up the mosquitos. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> attach a bat home to your house_ | | Never knew these were a thing but it's exactly what I expected. | Deserves a bat signal. | doublesocket wrote: | We built one into the gable end of our roof during | renovation: https://imgur.io/Gc42NPn?r | | (and added appropriately bat-wing shaped bargeboards) | exabrial wrote: | How does this compare to sodium-vapor lamps? | | Side note: I recently learned that all of the blue/purple street | lights are actually defective LEDs: | https://www.businessinsider.com/led-city-streetlights-turnin... | Zamicol wrote: | The moon is white. White is the most natural color of light at | night. White street lights are probably the most natural | approximation. | | The article doesn't say anything about white light, but does say | "Normal street lighting can affect a bat's flight" but doesn't go | into detail. I would love more detail. | StingyJelly wrote: | Definitely not the most natural approximation for the number of | moons. | haarts wrote: | The intensity of moon light is on an entirely different level | than street lights. | 40four wrote: | Sounds like a marketing 'puff piece' to me. Here, accept this | 'fact' about red lights, unsubstantiated by any details or | references as truth. And you're going to like it because it | supposedly is environmentally friendly. And because it 'feels | good' you won't ask any questions and repeat it to friends and | family as if it were truth. | dahwolf wrote: | What are you talking about? People exploring nature at night | have been using red lights for decades. It's standard | equipment. | | There's no mystery around the reason to use red light either. | Nocturnal animals, especially mammals, have far more rods | than cones in their eyes. This means they are much more | sensitive to brightness than they are to color. | | Red light in practice is far less bright than white light for | the same input energy (a bit more complicated than this) and | for quite a few animals they may not see it at all or very | poorly. | | None of this is theorizing, the effect can be readily seen in | practice. | handedness wrote: | The intensity of a street light is vastly higher. They | typically produce 10x-100x more foot-candles versus a full moon | on a clear night at a bright latitude. | | Even under ideal conditions, the earth receives <=1 lumen per | square meter of light from the moon. A single streetlight can | project tens of thousands of lumens (or more) over a relatively | small area. | morsch wrote: | Presumably having white light would also not be harmful | assuming it's as dim as the moon. Which, don't get me wrong, | can get surprisingly luminous, but not when compared to street | lighting. | smolder wrote: | > The moon is white. White is the most natural color of light | at night. White street lights are probably the most natural | approximation. | | You say "white" as if there's only one color white, which isn't | the case when you're talking about a range of lighting | temperatures. The moon also has a unique light profile that it | reflects. It's not the definition of white. Either way, if | you're advocating for something resembling 6500k daylight white | lighting at night, there is nothing at all natural about that. | The moon casts a very dim light, even at its brightest. | [deleted] | WeylandYutani wrote: | One of those things that happens when your country is too rich | and peaceful. | downvotetruth wrote: | Street lights without motion sensors on side streets are a waste | of electricity and a source of light pollution. | smolder wrote: | Some people actually argue it's good for safety and | particularly _reducing crime_ , but you won't catch me agreeing | with this motivation. I'll bet there is some curb | appeal/property value angle, too. People seem eager to abandon | reason when it comes to their home equity. | wouldbecouldbe wrote: | Reminds me of windmill, they kill lots of bats & birds. | | If we are working on an environment friendly energy alternative, | it feel sweird it kills lots of animals. | jabroni_salad wrote: | Do you believe that the aviation lights on the turbines is | what's killing the birds, as opposed to the other parts of the | structure? such as the spinny blade bit? | wouldbecouldbe wrote: | nah I don't mean the lights, I just mean the general effect | of technology we use and not always aware of the side | effects. I never hear it as an argument against a windpark | wyager wrote: | I have a hope that over the next 20-40 so years, we see extensive | commercialization of digital night vision (not the crap you get | on amazon, but the solid-state version of high-voltage IITs that | the military is currently testing), flat lenses, and AR glasses, | such that we get to a point where acceptable-quality night vision | is as ubiquitous as acceptable-quality cameras are now on | smartphones. | | One of the big upsides of such an outcome would be that we could | ditch things like streetlights entirely, cutting back a great | deal of light pollution. | maria1998zx wrote: | [flagged] | loeg wrote: | Bat friendly, human hostile. Not a great trade-off. | haarts wrote: | How is it human hostile? | jessekv wrote: | I hope my town does it too. | rqtwteye wrote: | Why human hostile? | kazinator wrote: | You can't go out at 2 a.m., stand under a streetlight and | read a horror novel written in bat blood ink, like you used | to. | | But that's the point! | loeg wrote: | Check out the picture in the article. Good luck using that to | see by. | maria1998zx wrote: | Si | TulliusCicero wrote: | Interesting, but does red lighting not have a different | physiological or psychological impact on humans? | toomuchtodo wrote: | Beneficial for human night vision while not being materially | detrimental (wrt physiological or psychological impact). | | https://www.healthline.com/health/why-not-to-have-red-lights... | | https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/2075/does-red-li... | eternalban wrote: | This is looking forward to the day when bats and machines will | peacefully coexist bathed in red light. | dudeinjapan wrote: | This would actually be an awesome movie plot. Town adopts red | lighting, Dracula moves there, a string of grisly murders | ensues, corrupt town bureaucrats refuse to get rid of the red | LEDs despite mounting evidence, nightvision/flamethrower- | equipped mechs needed to roast out the vampires. Well I guess | its not peaceful coexistence. | [deleted] | lelandfe wrote: | More or less the plot of Fallen London | maria1998zx wrote: | [flagged] | erikerikson wrote: | A whole new meaning for "the red light district", eh Amsterdam? | ;D | 1letterunixname wrote: | Maybe there will be outdoor red window boxes for rent. | | It's disconcerting to be walking around Amsterdam, turn a | corner, and there's a woman dancing in a rented box seeking | customers. | | Perhaps outdoor lighting would offer more warning. | capableweb wrote: | > It's disconcerting to be walking around Amsterdam, turn a | corner, and there's a woman dancing in a rented box seeking | customers. | | Well, to be fair, it's not really widespread all around the | city, it's not like you suddenly turn a corner and there is a | surprise box right in front of you. | mgaunard wrote: | Did the vampires take over the Netherlands or something? Why save | the bats? ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-05-08 23:00 UTC)