[HN Gopher] Lotus 1-2-3 ___________________________________________________________________ Lotus 1-2-3 Author : tosh Score : 122 points Date : 2023-05-09 11:35 UTC (11 hours ago) (HTM) web link (lock.cmpxchg8b.com) (TXT) w3m dump (lock.cmpxchg8b.com) | jpcosta wrote: | This is fascinating, but at the same time I got to ask. Wouldn't | it easier for a person as experienced as Tavis Ormandy to simply | write a console version of a spreadsheet software from scratch | using a modern stack? | bombcar wrote: | Yes and no - 1-2-3 is an extensively advanced piece of software | that took thousands of man hours to get where it was. | | You could write 20% of it in a few days, maybe 50% in a month, | but that last bit would take ... thousands of man hours. | guestbest wrote: | Off topic, but the other day people were wondering why Microsoft | did users stayed on the platform when operating systems like the | Amiga, Mac and even NeXT existed and it was because the terminal | user interface is good enough for many people. | | Great work by the author. I really like hearing about extending | the lifespans of DOS applications. | cameldrv wrote: | And price, and gobs of network effects. Macs were much more | expensive than PCs, and if you were working in an office with | multiple computers, being the only one with a mac was a huge | pain in ways that don't matter today. | | The main way to transfer files in the 80s was floppy disks. | Most PCs in the 80s had only 5.25" floppies, and Macs had 3.5". | Even if you had a 3.5" drive though on your PC, the Mac had a | much different format. There was some software that let you | read Mac disks on a PC, but it was somewhat flakey, and then | you were left with the fact that the base file format on the | Mac with resource and data forks was much different, and then | of course you were probably using different spreadsheet and | word processing software. Overall it was just barely possible | to share files if you really worked at it. | | What you tended to see was that most everyone used PCs except | certain industries/jobs that needed the graphical capabilities | of the Mac. For example, if you were in a newsroom, everyone | would be using Macs because there really wasn't good desktop | publishing software for the PC until about the early nineties. | | The Amiga had a niche in video production because there really | wasn't anything comparable to the video toaster for the Mac or | PC until much later. You'd also see various types of | workstations used for CAD, and in the nineties, SGI was the | only game in town for high end 3D graphics. Hardly anyone | bought a NeXT because they were so expensive and therefore | didn't have enough software. They were pretty good for rapidly | developing GUI software though, so there were a few companies, | specifically banks, that used some of them for internally | developed software. | Paul-Craft wrote: | > Hardly anyone bought a NeXT because they were so expensive | and therefore didn't have enough software. They were pretty | good for rapidly developing GUI software though, so there | were a few companies, specifically banks, that used some of | them for internally developed software. | | Famously, id Software also developed Doom on NeXTSTEP. | | https://doomwiki.org/wiki/NEXTSTEP | cameldrv wrote: | Also the original web browser, WorldWideWeb was on NeXT, | but hardly anyone used it because hardly anyone had a NeXT. | prometheus76 wrote: | Another reason is because the simple text-based interfaces and | terminals are also much more responsive. Some people prefer a | snappy response over constantly moving their hand between the | keyboard and mouse. | kjellsbells wrote: | This is massively important, especially for line of business | apps or tools that the user touches hundreds pf times a day. | GUIs are great when there are multiple, equally likely paths | that the user could take. But LOB apps tend not to be like | that: there is a mainline path (or very small number of | paths) that dominates all others, and apps that let the user | keystroke/tab/enter their way through these hot paths are | waaaay fast. | | For US people, look at how fast the employee in your local | Costco can look you up on their ancient-looking text app. | | You can do this in a GUI, or at least, you could in native | apps, to some extent, with a series of tab presses to | traverse the interface, and in the peak VB5 era this wast | kinda ok, but not great, and webapps are a hot mess for this | use case. If I'm shopping for flights, a gui webapp is great: | lots of paths are valid, and i can poke around. If I'm a gate | agent looking for the last seat on the plane out of O'Hare, I | want speed. | toast0 wrote: | Typically, the TUIs are also really good at consistently | handling input, so even when they do get behind in processing | the input, you can keep typing, and it will buffer inputs and | catch up. There's often an attention key which is _not_ | buffered, and will dump the input buffer and stop any | operations in progress, in case something is stuck. | | Even if a GUI does buffer input, it's unusual for users to be | comfortable clicking where the buttons will show up, before | they do. More frequently, click processing is separate from | whatever else, and early clicks (or taps) are ignored or | directed elsewhere. | bombcar wrote: | I remember watching clerks at Fry's Electronics I think it | was - they had PCs with windows on them, but all they ran | was some sort of terminal emulator to access the system | mainframe or whatever. | | You could ask them for a pick slip for whatever, they'd | turn around, ask your name, type everything in in seconds, | and then turn to the next customer; the computer would | slowly plug along through all the screens and then print | out the slip. They knew all the commands that far ahead. | toast0 wrote: | Yeah --- Fry's used to be all real terminals, but I guess | they ran out of equipment, so they ran a terminal | emulator in Windows instead (almost always full screen, | but modal popups from the printer? would break it out so | you could see it was Windows). And the sales and returns | terminals were usually setup so you could see them work. | Cash registers were under the same system, but you | usually couldn't see those. Word on the street was one of | the Fry brothers had written that system, I think the | server was a PC in the store somewhere (they did have | _some_ ability to check other store inventory, but I don | 't know how realtime that was) | | Airline service desks and vehicle/driver licensing are | also popular places to have a well developed TUI along | with experienced operators that will queue up a large | buffer of inputs. | bombcar wrote: | At a company years ago we had a GUI that worked "well | enough" but the dirty secret was it just sent keystrokes | to an older TUI program that the C-level had decided was | "too old looking and slow". | | A TUI isn't that far from an actual API, after all. | xp84 wrote: | It always warms my heart to see these classic TUIs on a | screen at a place like an airline service desk or a | store. (Same as the non-IP Nortel Norstar phone systems | that are 25 years old but still work that are in most | supermarkets and department stores) | masfuerte wrote: | GUIs used to handle keyboard input consistently so you | could type ahead, even into future dialog boxes, if you | weren't using the mouse. Unfortunately, this tends to be | broken for modern GUIs using async frameworks. | bombcar wrote: | People forget that back in the days of Dos and early MacOS, | people rarely _switched_ - the waves were new people coming | into the market that would often sway which was burning up the | world. | | Software was _expensive_ back then, too, many hundreds of | dollars that you really really wanted to keep running. | hnlmorg wrote: | The way I remember it was that people often did use other | platforms but Microsoft won largely because IBM lost control of | the PC market allowing for hundreds of cheap clones. | | It wasn't until the mid 90s when PCs started to feel like the | more capable platform. | | It's also worth noting that there is a reason Microsoft offers | heavy subsidies for education: it's because if you indoctrinate | people into your platform early on then they're likely to keep | buying your platform for years to come because change is scary. | | Edit: just to add some context, this is the point of view from | England. Sounds like Apple had (and possibly still has?) a | bigger presence in schools in the US. Whereas over here Apple | machines were relatively uncommon compared to many of their | counterparts. | bombcar wrote: | Which was funny to me because it wasn't until well past 2000 | that any of my educational systems were Windows; grade school | was Apple IIs and early Macs (one was color!) and high school | had higher end Macs. | | Cheap clones able to run 1-2-3 was a big part of it, but the | real lightning bolt for everyone I knew was Windows 95 and | the Internet. And most of the kids I knew would push their | parents towards the Windows for the games. | hnlmorg wrote: | In U.K. it was really common for people to have 8-bit | micros even into the late 80s. Typically Amstrad and | Commodores (with machines from Sinclair before that) while | schools had BBC Micros (from Acorn). Though there was a | plethora of machines around at that time that most people | have since forgotten about, like the Dragon 32 / 64. | | Europe, and the U.K. particularly, had a really strong | computer hardware industry in those days. In fact France | has the Minitel which is itself a really fascinating | technology and shaped early French computing trends in a | differ way to England and USA too. | | Going back to the U.K., you'd see a few people, usually | people with a little more money, but Atari or Amiga | machines but more often people jumped from C64 or Amstrad | CPC micro computers to IBM-compatible PCs. There definitely | were people who had an Apple Mac, but it wasn't the norm | where I lived. | | Showing my age a little here, but my high school still ran | Windows 3.x (I don't think it was even 3.1. Pretty sure it | was 3.0 on 286s). It was all Microsoft Office too. I ran | Lotus at home but Microsoft Word and Excel had already | conquered the schools, at least from what I saw. But we had | Corel Draw instead of PowerPoint. Not sure why. Maybe | PowerPoint hadn't been released yet? | cronix wrote: | > It's also worth noting that there is a reason Microsoft | offers heavy subsidies for education: it's because if you | indoctrinate people into your platform early on then they're | likely to keep buying your platform for years to come because | change is scary. | | That was Apple in the tail end of the 70's and 80's. Just | about all grade schools where I am had Apple ]['s and few to | no PC's. Apple heavily discounted the hardware and software | for education. It was the same through Jr. High and High | school (graduated in '90), except by then we had Mac's in the | school "labs." As a kid and teenager, I didn't even know | there was an IBM or Microsoft until the 90's. Everything was | Apple in education. I was heartbroken to receive a 386sx/16 | for my graduation present as I was heading off to software | engineering in college. Until I got to college and hardly | anyone had Apple's and the whole college was IBM clones. | xp84 wrote: | I had a similar experience in the early 90s (II followed by | 68K Macs (LCIIs) and a few molar macs), but by '98 (HS for | me) they were buying pallets full of Gateway and Dell | desktops which gradually replaced the Mac labs. | | My guess on causes in no particular order: | | 1. Apple got stingier in the discounting | | 2. They faced more aggressive competition from PC vendors | and weren't willing to eat any additional margin by | increasing their subsidy | | 3. What I suspect is the case: Schools looked around, | compared Windows 95 vs Mac OS 7 and 8, looked at Apple's | business marketshare (nil) and their shrinking consumer | marketshare, and concluded Apple was lost in the wilderness | and teaching kids to use Macs was pointless. Even as an | Apple admirer at the time (couldn't afford one though) I | can understand the decision. | hnlmorg wrote: | Are you American? Macs were much less common in Europe and | particularly in England. In fact England had its own | educational computer in the 80s as a venture between then | BBC and Acorn, the company that invented the original ARM | CPUs. | cronix wrote: | Yes, this was in Portland, Oregon (and Beaverton) | hnlmorg wrote: | Interesting. Just goes to show how regional differences | vary so much back then. I had no idea schools were | running Macs before today :) | jasim wrote: | Can anyone explain the deep nostalgia and longing for old DOS era | software, and in particular VGA text mode interfaces? | | I love staring at these screenshots and spinning up a DOSBox | every now and then and going thru 1-2-3, FoxPro, WordStar and so | on. | | I don't know what I'm looking for from them, does anyone else | have a clue? | cesarb wrote: | > Can anyone explain the deep nostalgia and longing for old DOS | era software, and in particular VGA text mode interfaces? | | Nowadays, our computers have instant access to an uncountable | amount of storage, information, and software through the | Internet, and even local storage is enormous. Back then, the | world was much smaller; the software and data you had in your | small hard disk and boxes of floppy disks (and perhaps tape, | etc.) was all that you had, and you didn't have a constantly | online network to distract you with an unlimited fire hose of | nonstop information. | | That led to a closer relationship between you and the software | on your computer. You had time to explore each and every corner | of the software, and to read its manual (be it in the form of | an online help or a paper book) from cover to cover. The | software stayed the same; there was no automatic online update, | no security scare blaming you for staying on a release that's | more than a day old. You knew your software and hardware | limitations, and adapted to them; they would stay the same | until you bought more hardware, or new software (which came in | colorful physical boxes, that you could put on a shelf). | | We have gained much since, but lost some of that sense of | wonder, of making the most of memory and storage measured in | megabytes or even kilobytes, processors with speeds measured in | megahertz or even kilohertz, and displays with few lines and | columns of characters and little color. | JamesAdir wrote: | You wrote it beautifully and if I can add - software then was | a tool. Like a good old hammer. You only bought a new one | when needed, or a different type for a new task. Today, | software is a service. | eddieroger wrote: | > Can anyone explain the deep nostalgia and longing for old DOS | era software, and in particular VGA text mode interfaces? | | I can only speak for me, but perhaps others feel the same way. | It is nostalgia for me because this is the first way I | experienced a computer, when everything was new to me and | anything was possible. Until we got a computer, the only window | outside of the world of my city was a TV, but a computer ran | software of all sorts, and games, and others knew how it worked | and could teach me stuff. Then the Internet came and I could | talk to people anywhere in the world! What a thing this was. | | Now, I spend all day looking at screens. I get paid to make | them work, and that's cool, but the wonder and magic of it all | is gone, and I miss it. DOS and text apps just happened to be | my first interface, and everyone longs for their first love. | | On a slightly more tactical angle, I really like typing and my | keyboard, and terminal apps make it so I don't have to move my | hands to a mouse and change contexts. A small thing, but it | adds up. Yes, some stuff is easier with a mouse, but it's | always fun to not have to change between input devices for long | stretches of time. | hnlmorg wrote: | Two very good reasons. I agree with this but I'd also add: | | When you use a computer every day then sometimes anything | that is different feels novel. It might be the nostalgia of | an older UI or it could be listing over something new but yet | to be released. | sldjfkdsljffkjd wrote: | Depends on the person. I too find myself looking at text | interfaces into this or that every once in a while but always | come back to the same few tools: Weechat (for Slack), w3m | (browser that I'm currently replying on) and vim. More recently | I've been experimenting with Word Grinder which is very | powerful but I don't know if it's as safe as Google Docs with | respect to auto saving. | | For me, I use these tools in my daily life because the normal | internet is just too damn noisy and gamified and addicting. I'm | big on the slow internet movement and browsing the internet in | w3m is a huge boon to focusing on what really matters: the | words. | bombcar wrote: | It's a limited interface (80x25, 16 or 256 colors) and major | companies spend millions of dollars over 20+ years perfecting | the interface for those things. They were top tier and felt | humanly understandable. | xp84 wrote: | To illustrate: In a DOS or terminal interface, a date field | usually expected a certain format, made that format obvious | in the UI, and you'd type the date with probably 6 keystrokes | (numbers) (and it'd probably jump the focus right to the next | field if you needed to enter more). And likewise, good | software would find a reasonable way to fit everything | possible on one screen. | | With 'modern' web-based business software, most of them | implement a date field with a pop-up mousing widget. You may | or may not be "allowed" to type at all, or it may not be | obvious how to, and you might need 47 mouse clicks and 15 | seconds to enter a DOB in the 1970s. And screens are usually | not laid carefully out at all, so even with small amounts of | info on the screen, there may be plenty of whitespace, | necessitating scrolling back and forth constantly. | | A phone number field, likewise, may throw errors for using or | not using the "expected" punctuation. Etc. | | Stuff like that would be considered an absolute failure in | the old text interfaces but it's the norm now that UIs are | clunky and inefficient. | | PS: None of this would be difficult in the web stack, it | seems like the "UI/UX" designers (when they even exist) care | exclusively about aesthetics. | josteink wrote: | > Can anyone explain the deep nostalgia and longing for old DOS | era software, and in particular VGA text mode interfaces? | | I'm not using any of those _other_ old things you mention, but | I love how I can run my full Emacs-configuration locally in a | TTY, remotely over SSH or whatever with no loss of | functionality. | | Having that capability is IMO a strength, not a weakness, and I | wish more software was like that. | [deleted] | LVB wrote: | There is a definitely an element of pure nostalgia from growing | up with those programs, but I think there is a bit more to it. | For me it evokes memories and feelings of _focus_. Just look at | all of today 's IDEs and note application that offer | "distraction free" or "typewriter" modes that are echoing | simpler interfaces of old. And as another commenter mentioned, | these apps were extremely capable and polished. So when I'd sit | down to write my papers in high school, I'd open up WordPerfect | and it alone would do everything I needed, and there was | literally nothing else running so I just sat down and wrote. I | don't achieve that sort of single-task work style very often | these days. | guessbest wrote: | DOS or more specifically MS-DOS was the platform on which the | TUI, terminal user interface, applications ran. Because MS-DOS | lacked universal drivers for printers and networking as well as | being single tasking, it was up to vendors to provide the | printer drivers, network stack as well as TSR, Terminate-and- | stay-resident, programs to allow switching between | applications. For most people a computer was just a function of | their job and not a career, so using a single tasking program | to edit a spreadsheet and sending it to someone on portable | storage like a 3.5" floppy drive seemed normal. Most meetings | were in person and rarely did meetings happen over group calls. | MS-DOS represents that world for the majority of people working | with computers in the 80's. Also, there was smoking indoors. | 0xdeadbeefbabe wrote: | The MSDOS manual is really good too. Some of the trees used | for cigarette paper were also used for books. | jmclnx wrote: | for me you had direct access to the hardware, that made writing | software a bit fun. In some cases you had to jump through hoops | which added to the excitement. | | Plus almost anyone could write programs, I saw some amazing | programs created as COM files. | danielrpa wrote: | Speed, responsiveness, uncluttered UI. | | I AM AMAZED that the average Pascal program of the day compiled | faster on my old 386 than the average program compiles today in | the latest and greatest workstation. Also don't get me started | on cloud remote desktops. Go compare the immediacy of this | garbage vs an old DOS computer in most applications. | | About the UI... Dozens of flashing buttons, toasts and pings vs | a Zen interface where you can, well, just focus on work. | joecool1029 wrote: | I added it to the Gentoo GURU overlay (still pending on dev | branch). Will fit along with DBF/libdbf as formerly common 90's | software available to install. | | EDIT: Oh wait, this is lotusdrv. I haven't added that yet. Added | the previously discussed linux native version of lotus123r3. | qingcharles wrote: | This man is doing God's work. Bless him. | phoe-krk wrote: | Lotus 1-2-3 was on the frontpage six days ago[0]; this is a | different article, about a new rendering driver for it, | supporting larger terminals! | | [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35807639 | helloooooooo wrote: | Same author though, Tavis Ormandy. | dang wrote: | Thanks! Macroexpanded: | | _Lotus 1-2-3 for Linux_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35807639 - May 2023 (73 | comments) | | Also related: | | _Original killer PC spreadsheet Lotus 1-2-3 now runs on Linux | natively_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31583982 - | June 2022 (1 comment) | | _Lotus 1-2-3 For Linux_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31455968 - May 2022 (83 | comments) | | _Lotus 1-2-3 arbitrary resolution_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26316637 - March 2021 (123 | comments) | | _Lotus 1-2-3 DOS Development Encyclopedia_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26312681 - March 2021 (1 | comment) | | _Lotus 1-2-3_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26304542 | - March 2021 (1 comment) | | _Rediscovering Lotus Agenda (MS-DOS, 1989)_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24862343 - Oct 2020 (11 | comments) | josteink wrote: | This is the most amazing hacker story I've read in a good while. | | Can't wait to hear how this ends up eventually! | bombcar wrote: | Speaking of Lotus 1-2-3, the best computer I have ever owned was | the HP 200 LX Palmtop - https://www.palmtoppaper.com | | It was about the size of a graphing calculator, and ran MS-DOS | 5.0 with a black and white CGA display, and had Lotus 1-2-3 and | rudimentary task-switching. | | Simply phenomenal for 1994. Nothing has ever really come close; | maybe someday I'll modify one so I can use the keyboard and | replace the screen with a modern phone. | thelastparadise wrote: | I was about to make the same comment. It was a remarkable | machine. I remember buying it in 1995. It was so small that it | could fit into a shirt pocket. I was in college at the time, | and I remember that I had an old Radio Shack dot matrix printer | that I could hook it up to. It was a real step up from the | TI-85. | bombcar wrote: | I remember printing to certain HP printers that had an | infrared port - such amazing capabilities. | | It still feels more capable to me than things like the | Raspberries Pi. | GeorgeTirebiter wrote: | Beat me to it! ;-) I continue to use my (three!) HP 200 LXs in | different parts of my lab for different reasons. The most 1-2-3 | stuff is for analyzing S Parameters and other RF tasks | (conversions, ratios, formulas, Smith Charts). | | Two AA batteries power it for a least a month; you could | recharge NiMH with the built-in charger if you wanted. I use | the PCMCIA card slot to hold a battery-backed SRAM, allowing | complete backup (via automatic macros) of the entire machine | (dead main batteries are not killers, here in the pre-FLASH | world). | | And, the comm -- you can plug a special cable in to get 115,200 | serial port. And you have IrDA --- I wrote the very first IrDA- | compatible 'stack' on that machine (and at the time sold | compatible discrete IrDA HW, so you could attach to another | end, e.g. a PC). | | Sorry to highjack a 1-2-3 thread with praise for the HP 200 LX, | but that was ( _is_ ) one HELL of an awesome machine, still in | use in my lab to this day. | russnewcomer wrote: | Somewhere between 2010 and 2012 when doing small business IT | support, for a client, I spent some time installing 1-2-3 on an | old, mostly disused machine in a corner of their office, then | connecting to the machine via LogMeIn on an iPad (I think DosBOX | because it better supported something on LogMeIn, I honestly | don't remember why not CMD.EXE) so that this customer, a medium | sized construction sub-contractor, could continue to use the | 1-2-3 based estimation spreadsheet that had been developed in the | early (yes, early, it might have been converted from visicalc) | 80s. I offered to instead convert it to Excel since it wasn't | really that complicated, but the response was basically "That's | probably better, but I've been doing this since the 70s and I'm | going to retire soon, I don't want to learn more new things that | I don't care about instead of getting jobs done as fast as | possible." | | It's not that 1-2-3 or a TUI was better, but that if you know it | and you don't care about it, you care about it. | | Worse is better. | | And so it goes with apologies to Mr. Richard Gabriel, but that | experience helped me more deeply understand what software should | do is do important things for people, not do things better. | thisgoodlife wrote: | If I were the customer, I'd reject your proposal too. The old | software has been working fine for 40 years, why would I want | to find someone to rewrite it? | jandrese wrote: | In this case it would be to prepare for the inevitable death | of the last machine in the office that can actually run it. | bombcar wrote: | The death of the user is more likely than the death of the | ability to run the spreadsheet; updating can wait until | that time if necessary. | icedchai wrote: | With emulation, it can run forever. | squarefoot wrote: | And faster, safer and future proof. I wouldn't be | surprised at all if most 30+ years old software ran | better on modern machines under a VM than say on 15 years | old hardware without emulation. | danielrpa wrote: | This just reminds me something I bring up to my development | team. The point of software is to serve humans, to make their | lives better. You should avoid spending time solving problems | created by yourself, the programmer. | | I think about this a lot when I see UI redesigns that "look | fresh" or "updated" while actually reducing productivity and | degrading the life of the humans who need computers to get | stuff done. All for some vague concept from the head of a | "visionary" who often doesn't use the system to solve the | problems it is meant to solve. | hggh wrote: | https://hn.algolia.com/?q=https%3A%2F%2Flock.cmpxchg8b.com%2... | squalo wrote: | Murdered by IBM (I've been murdered) | tpmx wrote: | _I got another stroke of luck, I found a third party printer | driver on an old SUNET archive for the Siemens Highprint 7400. | Remarkably, it had some ancient Codeview debugging data left in | it._ | | I quite like the anti-deletionists at the Academic Computer Club | in Umea, Sweden. I had a similar experience a while ago - they | were _only_ ones currently hosting a once (well, somewhat) | ubiquitous file. | | https://ftp.sunet.se/ | | SUNET is the name of the Swedish University NETwork. They | operated ftp.sunet.se with a public archive starting 1990. In | 2016 this academic computer club took over the hosting. They get | the bandwidth from their university for free. Their machines are | typically previous-gen donations from local companies. Oh, and | the local university tends to cover the electricity costs as | well. As well as the costs of the server room. Sysadmining the | service is done by volunteers though. | KMnO4 wrote: | I'm too young for Lotus 1-2-3. Or at least, I should have been. | | I worked at a factory in 2011 that _still_ used Lotus on their | ancient dinosaur because why fix what wasn't broken? The task was | mostly just to record the values measured from a QC device in a | spreadsheet, and print out a report for each batch. Since the | computer didn't have USB, printing involved saving the PDF to a | floppy disk, running it across the factory to the printer, and | inserting it into a USB-Floppy reader connected directly to the | modern office printer. | | Honestly, I was really impressed by how functional Lotus was for | such old software. The majority of tasks I was used to in modern | Excel were doable in 1-2-3, and it could even do several things | that _still_ aren't possible on Google Sheets. | aleph_minus_one wrote: | > The majority of tasks I was used to in modern Excel were | doable in 1-2-3 | | Work for a few years in the finance or insurance industry, and | this opinion of yours will likely change: people in these | industries have a tendency to (ab)use functionalities of modern | Excel a lot. :-) | yjftsjthsd-h wrote: | So that's another point in favor of 1-2-3;) ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-05-09 23:00 UTC)