[HN Gopher] Health advisory on social media use in adolescence
___________________________________________________________________
Health advisory on social media use in adolescence
Author : pseudolus
Score : 166 points
Date : 2023-05-09 14:17 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.apa.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.apa.org)
| niels_bom wrote:
| That the research here was mostly non-longitudinal really
| undermines how useful the results are. Even though our society
| has this data, it's just in Big Social's data vault. Would be
| nice if we could enforce them to let scienctists use this data
| for research.
| hamilyon2 wrote:
| So basically shepherding adolescent online life is impossible
| given current reality of Facebook, whatsapp and friends and if it
| was, it would be a full-time job? Or did I miss something?
| dang wrote:
| Related ongoing thread:
|
| _Students can't get off their phones. Schools have had enough_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35874246 - May 2023 (133
| comments)
| khazhoux wrote:
| My kids thankfully are not into (and we don't allow) "social
| media" -- no Instagram, TikTok, etc. So they're not posting
| selfies and waiting for the Like count to go up.
|
| But they _do_ spend a ton of time in online chats (Discord,
| Google Hangouts /Meet/whatever). Only in groups with friends,
| never in public rooms with strangers.
|
| On the one hand, it is essential that they be allowed to
| participate in these chats, since that is how they kids are
| hanging out now. On the other hand, holy crap the new ways to
| bully and mean to each other!!
| [deleted]
| orhmeh09 wrote:
| This recent article suggests other factors might be more
| important to adolescent mental health:
|
| Time spent on social media among the least influential factors in
| adolescent mental health: preliminary results from a panel
| network analysis
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s44220-023-00063-7
|
| > There is growing concern about the role of social media use in
| the documented increase of adolescent mental health difficulties.
| However, the current evidence remains complex and inconclusive.
| While increasing research on this area of work has allowed for
| notable progress, the impact of social media use within the
| complex systems of adolescent mental health and development is
| yet to be examined. The current study addresses this conceptual
| and methodological oversight by applying a panel network analysis
| to explore the role of social media on key interacting systems of
| mental health, wellbeing and social life of 12,041 UK
| adolescents. Here we find that, across time, estimated time spent
| interacting with social media predicts concentration problems in
| female participants. However, of the factors included in the
| current network, social media use is one of the least influential
| factors of adolescent mental health, with others (for example,
| bullying, lack of family support and school work dissatisfaction)
| exhibiting stronger associations. Our findings provide an
| important exploratory first step in mapping out complex
| relationships between social media use and key developmental
| systems and highlight the need for social policy initiatives that
| focus on the home and school environment to foster resilience.
| [deleted]
| jacobn wrote:
| Jonathan Haidt has an interesting response to this (and
| related) criticisms: https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/why-
| some-researchers-th...
| jsmith45 wrote:
| How are they defining social media use in their analysis?
|
| Because I'm not sure "estimated time on social media" is really
| the best way to measure things.
|
| The specific social media services used, and how they are used.
| Some services can be pretty bad if used in some common ways,
| but much better if used in a more carefully curated fashion.
|
| Spending endless hours are a sensibly curated subset of reddit
| could easily be a whole less bad for ones mental health than
| just a few hours a week on some other services, especially if
| the user has not (or cannot) carefully curated their feeds on
| those other services.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > Time spent on social media among the least influential
| factors in adolescent mental health
|
| But it's the one that's easy to assign blame to: it's the evil
| (sometimes foreign) big tech companies fault.
|
| Increasingly poor economics prospects, environmental crisis and
| over-competitive society are much tougher issues to crack, and
| perhaps, in the case of housing for instance, certain
| demographics would prefer to blame the "evil screens" rather
| than their own generation's behavior over the years...
| orhmeh09 wrote:
| although I believe the big tech companies are doing their
| very best to capture attention at all costs, it is a good
| question to ask _why_ people are in a position to spend so
| much time on social media and are doing so in place of other
| activities. For example, the lack of public spaces where one
| can spend time without spending money, relatively recent
| parenting practices and legal obstacles to having
| unsupervised time outdoors, etc.
| barbazoo wrote:
| I can see it in myself and I suspect others feel similarly.
| And I suspect kids feel it even more strongly but that's
| just an assumption of mine. The way "big tech companies are
| doing their very best to capture attention at all costs" is
| by designing their apps such that it's physically
| addicting. Once you're addicted it's hard to do the other
| things you mentioned because they don't release the same
| chemicals in your brain.
| westurner wrote:
| Would it be abusive or advisable to adapt edtech
| offerings in light of social media and slot machines' UX
| user experience findings?
|
| While they should never appease students, can't infotech
| and edtech learn how to keep their attention, too?
|
| Perhaps prompt engineering can help to create engaging
| educational content with substantive progress metrics?
|
| "Build a game in JS (like game category XYZ) to teach
| quantum entropy to beginners"
|
| And then what prompt additions could help to social
| media-ify the game?
|
| How should social media reinforce human communication
| behaviors with or without the stated age of the user?
| Should there be a "D- because that's harassment" panda
| video to reinforce? Which presidential role models'
| communication styles should AI emulate?
|
| I find it sad to consider that the most impactful thing
| to do to improve children's lives would be to ban them
| from social media due to their age; though, for the
| record, e.g. Facebook did originally require a .edu email
| address at an approving institution.
|
| Hopefully, Khanmigo and similar AI edtech offerings will
| be more engaging than preferentially reviewing
| unacceptable abuse online; but kids and people still need
| to learn to interact respectfully online in order to
| succeed.
| Night_Thastus wrote:
| I don't believe it's the tech companies fault necessarily -
| but social media definitely plays a big role in my view.
|
| It is _extremely_ easy to get sucked into groups that
| perpetuate racial /sexist-related hate, self-loathing and
| suicide, unhealthy self image/comparison to others, endless
| doom-saying and bad news, etc.
|
| Those can have a huge impact on someone when they're young.
| (Frankly, they have a huge impact on everyone else, too)
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > unhealthy self image/comparison to others
|
| Is it such a bad thing that they compare themselves to
| their peers?
|
| In 2018 "obesity prevalence was [...] 21.2% among 12- to
| 19-year-olds." [1] according to the CDC. That's one out of
| 5 being obese, not just overweight. And it has more than
| tripled since the 70's [2]. I have to wonder if it's
| related. A lot of teenagers are bombarded with images of
| their peers' perfectly healthy bodies that, quite simply,
| won't match what they see in the mirror. The solution? Ban
| mirrors.
|
| [0] https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/childhood.html
|
| [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/obesity_child_15_1
| 6/obe...
| Night_Thastus wrote:
| Of course obesity is a massive problem in the US. That's
| undeniable. There is, of course, the opposite side of
| this where some people become anorexic which is well-
| documented. (Less common, of course, but still important)
|
| But there are other issues of self image too, like wealth
| and success, beauty, etc.
|
| Spending all day seeing nothing but seemingly "perfect"
| individuals with "perfect" lives (even if a lot of it is
| fabricated) can do a lot of harm, in my view.
| whats_a_quasar wrote:
| "Increasingly poor economic prospects" isn't true. The world
| is far wealthier and youth have far better economic prospects
| than they did in previous generations, when the world was
| poor and the rate of teen depression/suicide was low.
|
| The two main arguments on mental health "it's the phones" and
| "the world actually sucks and the kids are right to be
| depressed." But in the actual data doomerism doesn't
| correlate with the crisis. Phone usage and decline in face-
| to-face interaction does.
|
| Two sources:
|
| - "No, teen suicide isn't because the world is objectively
| worse": https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/02/teen-suicide-
| depress...
|
| - "Don't be a doomer": https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/dont-be-
| a-doomer?utm_source=su...
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| >Increasingly poor economic prospects" isn't true.
|
| We've gone from the celebrated one-income households in the
| 1950s
|
| to increasingly fewer jobs than people to fill them
| (beginning ~1972)
|
| to 3-4 typical incomes necessary to support a household in
| my (formerly affordable) state.
|
| Our long trend certainly seems to fit within a description
| of Increasingly Poor Economic Prospects
| [deleted]
| Brusco_RF wrote:
| An interesting nuance, but I don't think this should be used to
| dismiss the mental health effects of social media. Social media
| affects virtually ALL adolescents, while those other factors
| listed only affect some. Only a subset of adolescents lack
| family support or are bullied. The third factor,
| dissatisfaction with schoolwork, would be extremely hard to
| discern as a cause or effect of depression
| whats_a_quasar wrote:
| Yeah, to add on to this, the article seems to imply a logical
| leap from
|
| - "social media isn't as bad as bullying or having an
| unstable home"
|
| to
|
| - "social policy ought to focus on the home and school rather
| than social media"
|
| But I don't think that follows at all. I don't think anyone
| disagrees that bullying is bad and stable homes are good. And
| I think that's always been a goal of child social policy.
| Social isolation caused by technology might have a weaker
| effect size, but it affects everyone, including adolescents
| in stable homes who aren't being bullied. It would be great
| if we had a lever to pull to get rid of bullying, but in the
| meantime if the goal is to increase child well-being we ought
| to act on social media.
| xpe wrote:
| I have no particular expertise on bullying but I am
| confident there are levers (I.e. policies, interventions,
| support mechanisms) to reduce many kinds of bullying, much
| of the time. Different types would need to be dealt with in
| different ways: physical, emotional, and online.
|
| Of course, it is complicated. Bullying arguably is a
| manifestation of deeper, psychological and social issues.
| Some forms of bullying are very difficult to find, much
| less prevent.
|
| Unfortunately, many of these kid / young adult practices
| persist well into adulthood.
|
| Personally, I sometimes find it quite difficult to draw
| lines between a lot of negative behavior. As kids are
| figuring out their emotions, they act on them in many
| unconstructive ways. It seems to me the core elements of
| the worst bullying tend to have to do with (1) it being
| persistent; (2) targeted on those with less status or
| power; (3) the victim feels isolated.
|
| Again, this isn't researched, but I did put some thought
| into it.
| Brusco_RF wrote:
| Can you name some of those levers? Because I tend to
| think that bullying is as old as our species is
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| Bullies need a certain amount of cover and crowds are
| fairly ideal for it.
|
| I'd pull the lever that unwound our budget-friendly,
| densely populated, age-segmented schools in favor of
| much, much smaller community (eg:walkable) schools where
| courses were based on students' academic ability (instead
| of age) and where student-student support was a focus.
| Brusco_RF wrote:
| Your solution is to burn down the entire public school
| system and re-build it from scratch - that's a non-
| starter.
|
| I also don't even think it would work in principle.
| You're talking about combining the older age groups with
| the younger, that's a recipe for bullying.
| xpe wrote:
| I don't personally have a good sense of the how well the writing
| captures the scientific evidence.
|
| As a positive, I see indications that the report is attempting to
| identify the specific patterns and activities that are known to
| be damaging.
|
| One of the many challenges with these kinds of reports is
| remaining relevant and useful as these tools evolve and society
| adapts.
|
| What kinds of social media patterns, features, or risk factors do
| _you_ notice in kids?
| xpe wrote:
| The web page shows a photo of a mom sitting alongside her
| daughter while she's using social media. I'm not in that
| situation, but that general approach seems awkward. (Maybe it
| shouldn't?) The related text doesn't offer much detail on how
| this could work. I'm open to ideas, but I'm not seeing them in
| the page. Perhaps the linked PDF has more? If so, some hyperlinks
| to details would help.
| blinded wrote:
| Ya my kids wont be using any of it until they are adults.
| vrglvrglvrgl wrote:
| [dead]
| edbaskerville wrote:
| "...designs created for adults may not be appropriate for
| children."
|
| Seems right, seeing as the designs created for adults aren't good
| for adults either.
| bhawks wrote:
| Seems like Big Tech hasn't been following the other Big
| $INDUSTRY playbook fully yet - you gotta buy your own competing
| medical studies. Newbie mistake.
|
| I am sure they'll learn, they figured out how important buying
| politicians was in the mid 2000s.
| hospitalJail wrote:
| I'd like to see more tools on how to quit addictive behaviors. I
| read Power of Habit, so I can easily quit things, but not
| everyone was lucky to be gifted a 300 page book and read it. If
| that was taught as a class in high school, it might eliminate
| long-term drug addiction.
|
| How many times are people subjecting themselves to social media
| they don't really want to view because they habitually unlock
| their phone and check their notifications?
|
| These kind of things are fighting fire with a squirt gun. Telling
| people to 'use less' and 'monitor' are easy to beat with
| addictive platforms.
| sureglymop wrote:
| I think a big issue is when you're forced to. Say you can only
| text with someone on Instagram but you don't care about the
| rest of the app.. Well if you create an alternative client just
| for that purpose you might get a letter from a lawyer (see
| barinsta). And no, convincing people to use something just for
| you on an individual basis is not a solution.
| ragle wrote:
| Anecdotal: the app "One Sec" broke my twitter habit over the
| course of a few weeks.
|
| Via iOS' automations feature the app allows you to configure a
| per-app waiting period during which you can decide you don't
| actually want to open whatever app you've tried to open.
|
| Very grateful for this tool.
| danem wrote:
| Do you find yourself making better use of your time, or do
| you substitute one time waster with another? I can definitely
| see how this would help me be more productive during my work
| hours though...
| ksala_ wrote:
| That's usually where those things fail for me. Still, I
| don't really consider them worthless - the goal is not to
| prevent you from wasting your time, but to make you aware
| you're wasting your time and turning a muscle memory action
| into something you actually have to think about.
|
| In my experience phisical separation is the best for when
| you don't want to use your phone (for example, when going
| to bed or if you want to focus on discussions when having
| lunch) but that is not always possible - then apps like one
| sec or other tricks like setting your phone to gray scale,
| moving icons around, focus mode, screen time... All serve
| to nudge your brain into thinking if you really want to
| waste time.
|
| For making better use of your time... Eh. Everyone
| struggles differently of course, but I'm unlikely to go out
| and run, or do focus work, when I would waste 30 minutes
| scrolling through Instagram. But if you make sure to have
| better alternatives (reading a curated feed, listening to a
| audiobook/podcast) then they can nudge you that way.
| Finding a better alternative is entirely up to you. I do
| find that writing down things you want to do, no matter how
| silly it sounds ("of course I want to read more books!")
| helps, especially as you can always reference to that list
| later when you're bored.
| [deleted]
| tmhrtly wrote:
| Second data point. I love that app. Well worth all the money.
|
| I've also customised the automations so I have added friction
| to opening, for example, Slack after 6PM or on weekends.
| However it opens immediately during working hours.
| RangerScience wrote:
| I fall into video game binges rather easily, and what's been
| helping me _a lot_ is a practice of intentionality & timers.
| It's a combination of advice from my psychiatrist and
| therapist, and it's pretty straightforward.
|
| Before doing a thing - particularly things I can easily lose
| myself in, like doom scrolling - I take a few moments and ask
| myself what I want out of that time, which naturally dovetails
| into how long I want to spend at it. Maybe it's ten minutes.
| Maybe it's three hours. Then I set a timer for that long, and
| when the timer goes off, (notionally) I halt, walk away from
| the thing for another few moments and re-evaluate. Maybe I go
| back. Maybe I don't. Maybe I go back after doing something else
| for a few minutes (say, loading a dishwasher).
|
| One of the key bits it to not judge myself or my wants. If I
| want to binge Factorio for a day... like, alright. I'll do
| that, even if I know later-me won't like having done that. No
| judgment, no beating myself up about it.
|
| Another key bit seems to be not _not_ doing the thing. That 's
| a hard fight. AFAICT it's one part awareness, one part wedging
| in some mental/emotional space to make choices inside the habit
| loop (stimulus -> response -> reward), and one part good old
| fashioned habit-loop interruption (AFAIK if you literally add
| breaths-worth of time to each step in the habit loop, it
| drastically diminishes the oomph of what's happening
| neurologically).
|
| The magic seems to happen in two forms:
|
| 1. "Taking control of my time." - Even if I'm making the same
| choices, now, my experience is that _I_ am making them, instead
| of "them" making me.
|
| 2. "Stopping before you're tired means you don't start the next
| thing exhausted". Previously I'd binge until I beyond exhausted
| my enjoyment of the thing. Now I have a way to do a thing while
| I'm enjoying it, and stop once I no longer am.
|
| PS - I've also started wondering if this is whatever the hell
| people _actually_ meant when they talked about "time
| management" when I was kid, but no-one actually ever explained.
| all2 wrote:
| > Another key bit seems to be not not doing the thing. That's
| a hard fight.
|
| I was told to replace bad habits with other things. It didn't
| have to be some "good habit", but there had to be _something
| else_ to fill the void left by the thing I wasn 't doing. I
| had a list (I still have it somewhere) of healthy things that
| I enjoy, that I can do instead of falling into a porn binge
| (its been almost 5 years since I last willingly looked at
| porn) or a YouTube hole (that's been less than a week, small
| steps).
|
| Having a list of other things to do, things I enjoy, made
| stopping unhealthy habits a lot easier. I didn't strap myself
| to "being more productive", rather I just replaced bad habits
| that produce dopamine hits with enjoyable things that produce
| dopamine hits.
| ajd1988 wrote:
| As devs we could create an app that sets a timer for social
| media use and then shocks you with a mild electric shock
| every time you exceed your set limit!
|
| We'll call it the Zapchat or the Zapper and we guarantee
| it'll be SHOCKING how effective it is at keep us from looking
| at our screens every 5 min
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| I mean, why not just lock the device instead? If only there
| was a way to lock for X minutes without the ability to
| unlock...
| tboyd47 wrote:
| Check out "The Easy Way to Quit Smoking" by Allen Carr.
| safety1st wrote:
| > 8. Adolescents should limit use of social media for social
| comparison, particularly around beauty- or appearance-related
| content.
|
| Or we could just throw up our hands at the epidemic of teen
| girl suicide and say "oh they shouldn't do that"
|
| What a joke the APA has become
| nomel wrote:
| I don't think this is fair. Knowing what should be avoided is
| a prerequisite for figuring out how to avoid it.
| Communicating what should be avoided should be done even if
| the "how" isn't really understood/thought out.
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| I blocked facebook and instagram on my computer by updating the
| /etc/hosts file. Now going to either site results in a 404,
| along with many other sites that are embedded in muscle memory.
| khazhoux wrote:
| Unfortunately, it's easy to edit it back...
| butterguns wrote:
| > I read Power of Habit, so I can easily quit things
|
| I mean no ill-intent, but this feels like an incredibly naive
| thing to say. The inference "I read X book, therefore I am
| immune to / protected from addiction".
| unethical_ban wrote:
| It's naive to think that's the literal meaning.
|
| I didn't think it needed spelling out that they were saying
| "I read this book, _I understood its message and was able to
| incorporate it into my life with notable results_ , so I am
| better at quitting or avoiding addictive behavior"
| tempsy wrote:
| I mean I think schools should be stricter on cell phone use. I
| just think it's a bit of a lost cause at this point.
|
| If I had kids I would 100% send them to a school that banned
| smartphones with dumb phones for texting and calling the only
| thing allowed between classes.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| It's not a lost cause. Many venues lock cell phones for
| adults with Yondr pouches. Why can't that work for kids
| during school?
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > I'd like to see more tools on how to quit addictive
| behaviors.
|
| Make them. I'm serious.
|
| I used to be addicted to a bunch of mobile games. What cured me
| was the decision to simply automate all that stuff. I reverse
| engineered the game and wrote a bot for it. All those habit
| forming daily tasks? Automated. I was free. That's when I
| realized how deep in that rabbit hole I was.
|
| Programming changes lives.
| aaroninsf wrote:
| So, let's talk frankly here.
|
| Many, though not all, of the people here and in the YC
| ecosystem etc., work or have had worked or otherwise made their
| careers (and fortunes),
|
| helping concerns whose business model is entirely, openly,
| founded on maximizing user growth and user engagement. So as to
| sell personal data in one direction and ads in the other.
|
| This has been something like at trillion-dollar endeavor, and a
| lot of those dollars have gone into the science (formal and
| "field") of ensuring those two things.
|
| I.e, to MANUFACTURE ADDICTION.
|
| It's not a bug. It's not just a feature. It's THE feature.
|
| What I tell my own kids, who are not allowed on TikTok, or any
| Meta property, at all, full stop,
|
| is that against the evolved state of these properties, on our
| twinkly devices, we have no more defense against addiction than
| we do against the physiologically analogous fat and sugar.
|
| It's not about discipline. It's not about habit formation. It's
| not about best practices in schools. It's not about "downtime"
| and tepid screen time controls.
|
| The problem is more fundamental, and much, much, much uglier,
| and much, much, much intractable, than most discourse about it
| admits.
|
| The only solution today, literally, is _not to play the game_.
|
| Footnote: AI is going to make things 1000x worse, which I would
| not have believed possible a few years ago.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Yup. Every time people talk about maximizing "engagement",
| they're talking about manufacturing addiction in users. The
| solution is the destruction of the business models that
| require addiction. Make technology to block ads or just
| straight up make them illegal. Make personal information a
| huge liability.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| > we have no more defense against addiction than we do
| against the physiologically analogous fat and sugar
|
| I don't understand - we have quite a lot of defense against
| those things.
| aaroninsf wrote:
| As I think quite the opposite (more--think that it's
| incontrovertible!) I welcome expansion on what you mean, we
| may be interpreting "defense" differently for example!
| robertlagrant wrote:
| Possibly we're meaning different things! I was meaning we
| have brains to understand what we should avoid
| (over)eating and willpower to choose to act on that
| knowledge.
| anonymouse008 wrote:
| Have a high level summary? The whole place the gym bag in front
| of the door as success I feel is misplaced (yes) without a
| reward loop (unique to each person).
| hospitalJail wrote:
| I don't. I have tried to find web pages that summarize it,
| and they do a disservice.
|
| I tried writing my own blog post, and I don't think I got any
| positive feedback.
|
| There might be a bit of nuance that a summary doesnt catch.
|
| Anyway, I'd pay 100k to read Power of Habit, you basically
| can do whatever you want when you learn how the brain works.
| pedrosorio wrote:
| Is this "The Power of Habit - Why We Do What We Do in Life
| and Business" by Charles Duhigg?
| Multicomp wrote:
| yes!
| noelsusman wrote:
| I'll give it a go.
|
| A large chunk of your daily behaviors are governed by habits.
| Habits are made up of cues followed by some sort of routine
| that you do which results in some sort of reward. If you want
| to change a habit then you need to focus on the cues that set
| off the routine. When a cue occurs, alter the routine and
| give yourself an alternate reward.
|
| I used to have a drinking problem, say 1-2 bottles of wine a
| night every night. I cook almost every night in my house, so
| starting to cook dinner was a major cue for me to start
| drinking. Specifically, whenever I would put on my apron
| around 6pm I would get a strong urge to pour a glass of wine.
| I had a lot of difficulty resisting that urge even when I
| genuinely wanted to quit. It felt eerily automatic and
| involuntary. I didn't start having success until I focused on
| that cue and replaced the routine that followed it. For me, I
| decided I would put on my apron and immediately make myself a
| plate of fancy cheese and some crackers. I still had a
| routine and a reward after my cue, but the new routine was
| significantly less destructive.
|
| So you're right with your exercise example that simply
| placing your gym bag by the door isn't going to be
| successful. You need some cue to go exercise, then exercise,
| then immediately reward yourself with some chocolate or your
| favorite candy or whatever.
|
| I won't go so far as to say we can cure everyone's addiction
| with this one neat trick, but I have found it to be a useful
| framework on my life.
| 23B1 wrote:
| Active control measures. 'Lock the liquor cabinet' with
| parental controls, or use apps for yourself like
| https://freedom.to
| spiznnx wrote:
| This looks great, except I have a lot of linux devices, which
| doesn't look supported. Currently I'm often avoiding my
| app/website blockers by switching devices or browsers.
| all2 wrote:
| Time-lock using pi-hole or another interceptor?
| Theoretically you could put this upstream of your devices
| on the network in your home. Then device doesn't matter
| (unless you switch to data on your phone).
|
| Part of this is not having _something else to do_ in place
| of doing the old habit. Part of this is not getting a
| reward for doing the something else. Maybe make a list of
| things you (used to) enjoy and keep it somewhere visible,
| revisit it frequently, especially when you are about to hit
| a cue that sends you into an activity you want to avoid.
| ngngngng wrote:
| This changed my life. I'm unfamiliar with that app, I use
| Cold Turkey Blocker and iOS screen time. My wife keeps the
| passwords if I need to make changes or unlock things.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| I have a book I wrote that might help you. Feel free to send me
| an email and I'll send you a free copy (applies to anyone
| reading and can find my email on my website)
| all2 wrote:
| Why not share the title here?
| [deleted]
| JohnMakin wrote:
| > To minimize psychological harm, adolescents' exposure to
| "cyberhate" including online discrimination, prejudice, hate, or
| cyberbullying especially directed toward a marginalized group
| (e.g., racial, ethnic, gender, sexual, religious, ability
| status),22 or toward an individual because of their identity or
| allyship with a marginalized group should be minimized.
|
| Ok, there goes 95% of the most popular games out there.
| WanderPanda wrote:
| Let's put aside hate, Twitter can't even filter raw violence
| (people shooting eachother) nowadays. It's really disturbing
| and I press I'm not interested every time but these viral
| videos still pop up every once in a while. Sure the number of
| regrettable minutes might be minimized as Elon wants it to be.
| But the magnitude of regret of the few regrettable minutes is
| just off the charts
| JohnMakin wrote:
| True. What this advisory recommends doesn't really seem
| feasible without cutting off an adolescent entirely to the
| internet - which isn't necessarily a bad idea, I'm just not
| sure how feasible that is without destroying their peer
| relationships at the same time.
|
| When I was a teen it was not unusual to see extremely graphic
| violence go viral in ways that made it much easier to find
| than it is nowadays (like beheading videos and stuff). I want
| to say I came out pretty unscathed, but I'm not sure.
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| This feels so weak and inappropriate. It's easy to say don't do X
| or don't do Y. But then what? What are they supposed to be doing
| instead?
|
| God only knows how they'd feel if they instead watched the
| "news". Perma-war, climate change, constant political cluster
| fuckery, the latest fear-mongering narrative, stranger danger,
| etc., etc.
|
| The APA should prescribe a mirror for every adult, and ask them
| to spend time thinking about the world we're creating for future
| generations (i.e., current adolescents).
| camelNotation wrote:
| What are they supposed to be doing instead of social media?
| Social media was invented like 10 minutes ago. And they
| certainly don't need to watch the news on a regular basis.
|
| Play sports, build things, read books, create art (write, draw,
| paint, design, play music, etc etc), learn new things worth
| learning, and - God forbid - be BORED sometimes and have to
| come up with their own adventures and activities.
|
| Parents need to be actively providing children with avenues for
| their own development and creativity. There are infinite
| options.
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| I'm simply pointing out that "Don't _____" is not a solution.
| Just like "Don't be sedentary" worked out so well.
|
| I'm also pointing out, that they didn't create the shit-show
| they're going to inherit.
|
| The least we can do should be 5x or 10x better than "Don't
| _____".
|
| How about "Don't just say don't"?
| b800h wrote:
| Or just don't let them use it. A lot of verbiage there; no reason
| to let your child use social media. I wonder if they've been
| lobbied.
| trasz4 wrote:
| No reason to let your child any media, unless you want them to
| be literate or sth.
|
| And social media is less harmful than some traditional ones.
| It's just that you've been conditioned by the traditional ones
| to believe they are somehow normal.
| omginternets wrote:
| I think they were probably just asked to be as accurate as they
| could, and no more. There's no clear and compelling reason for
| a blanket recommendation to avoid social media altogether.
|
| But I'm largely with you. As a _practical_ matter, it 's easier
| just to avoid it entirely.
| bilqis wrote:
| Kids may be socially isolated if they're not present online.
| tboyd47 wrote:
| Yet, this argument doesn't seem persuasive to the creators
| of such technology.
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/tech-execs-screen-time-
| child...
| 31337Logic wrote:
| That's true only if the majority of kids spend the majority
| of their time online. It's a circular argument. And while
| one might argue that that is indeed the case today, the
| question is SHOULD it be the case, tomorrow?
|
| I think it's just an objective fact: given the way social
| media sites intentionally try to grab and hold onto our
| attention at any cost, the cons far outweigh the pros and
| we all (not just children) would be better off consuming
| less social media. Once the media companies restructure
| their business model and make their platforms more ethical
| and sustainable for society, then I have no problem with
| widespread adoption again.
| omginternets wrote:
| Maybe. And maybe you can work around that.
|
| It's a judgement call.
| [deleted]
| slothtrop wrote:
| If a parent takes the intervening effort to limit time
| online, they can take the intervening effort to ensure
| their child takes part in social activities. The connection
| is not lost on them.
|
| Social media is addicting in large part because kids are
| addicted to each other. It's often used as a substitute for
| hanging out. That barrier doesn't need to be there all the
| time. Adults get complacent with tech and will bias towards
| the convenience of staying at home versus going out-into-
| the-world to do things - if we want to lead by example,
| changing our own lifestyle helps, but simply accommodating
| a kid's extra-curriculars will get you out of the house
| too.
|
| And really, if you prevent a kid from watching 3 hours of
| television, are they going to do "nothing" instead? No,
| they'll figure something out to keep entertained. By the
| same token, they'll want to satisfy their social needs.
|
| One problem is that opting for online chat can be a defense
| mechanism against going out and being vulnerable in front
| of other people.
| hgsgm wrote:
| Are you pro or anti Remote/Work From Home?
| slothtrop wrote:
| Pro do what you want. Personally I end up working from a
| coffee shop once a week, I'd be alright with flexible
| hybrid. I do get some social needs met from family, but I
| clearly benefit from getting out of the house. With kids,
| it's easier this way than having your own weekly extra-
| curriculars (though I try to set time for some). Friends
| in this city are few and weekends get repetitive.
| uoaei wrote:
| That doesn't happen in a vacuum. Parents are responsible
| for enabling their childrens' social lives, it's part of
| their duties as parents.
|
| Friends live far away? Organize with other parents to drive
| kids back and forth, or go home together from school. You
| live in SFZ suburbia? Well, that requires a more drastic
| change but it's doable.
| b800h wrote:
| I think the downsides outweight the upsides. If they're
| doing sports and clubs, the social isolation will be
| minimal, other children will have phone bans too, and they
| won't be at risk from a load of horrendous stuff online.
| bnj wrote:
| I've experienced a lot of exasperation recently as the
| sports and clubs that my kids are involved with only
| communicate the practice schedule and meeting times over
| WhatsApp.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| Agreed.
|
| It might help the mental health of the parents, and increase
| interaction with their children, if they cut back on their
| social media use themselves. It would definitely serve as a
| good example. (I realize I'm saying this via a social media
| channel while being a father. I get that it's not easy. I am
| also aware I'm committing hypocrisy.)
|
| My wife and I promised each other not to "share" much (and
| absolutely no photos) about our child on the Internet (even as
| the child, getting older, has started asking us to "share"
| things). I think not being able to use my child for sweet,
| sweet Internet points was useful in helping me disengage from
| the least rewarding, most mentally taxing social media (which,
| for me, was Facebook).
|
| I caught myself replying HN comments during evening read aloud
| time. I decided to start using the dedicated e-reader, instead
| of my phone, so that it won't happen again.
| kingkawn wrote:
| lobbied by their children, as i've seen in all my friends
| who've tried to limit internet access with their pre-teen and
| teenage kids
| b800h wrote:
| Hah. I might be a terrible curmudgeon, but my answer is just
| a flat no.
| kingkawn wrote:
| Hope it works out once they're free of you
| sarchertech wrote:
| Then they'll be adults and hopefully able to manage their
| social media use better than children can.
|
| Worst case, they'll be no worse off than those of us who
| came of age before social media existed.
| barbazoo wrote:
| What's the downside, kids miss out, might be excluded by their
| peers maybe even bullied? Would the parent/child relationship
| suffer? But would the compound effect be better or worse than
| exposing a young child to social media? I have no idea but my
| gut feeling is that people would be better off overall without
| social media. Just a gut feeling though and we shouldn't make
| policies based on gut feelings obviously.
| Brusco_RF wrote:
| You don't need to go to the extreme in either direction.
| Everything is fine in moderation. Kids are terrible at
| moderating (adults aren't great either), so use the screen
| time limits that Apple gives you.
| hexis wrote:
| There's zero chance this message was not shaped by social media
| companies. Any message like this, regarding any industry, would
| get that industry's input.
|
| That said, it sure seems like social media companies got this
| to be as neutral as they possibly could, considering the very
| strong evidence that social media is extremely bad for kids.
| We're definitely soft rebooting the tobacco experience, this
| time with psychology instead of lungs.
| basch wrote:
| It's interesting to see beauty, appearance, and eating
| disorders called out, along with racism and bullying, but
| little else. Those are absolutely problems, and rabbit holes
| to keep out of, but I'm not sure that calling some specifics
| out really encompasses the whole problems, or the higher
| level problems that exist above the topic of content.
|
| At a higher level, short video content has become a super
| refined version of americas funniest home videos and mtv.
| There is no narrative between videos, and it just constantly
| presses the dopamine button.
|
| Then you get the split videos where you have a sensory video
| playing alongside someone talking.
|
| It also doesn't talk about faux excitement. Every other
| youtuber that isnt Miss Rachel is yelling or screaming, and
| basically producing entire videos of hysterical feigning of
| shock, mouth agasp. That transcends nearly any topic.
|
| It also doesnt talk about learning to navigate youtube vs
| being fed youtube by youtube.
|
| It also doesnt talk about advertising, especially the
| organicish kind. Teaching kids that the video about a guy
| making pancakes with Prime is a Prime ad.
|
| It also doesnt talk about replacing friends with celebrities.
| b800h wrote:
| In the UK the standard combination appears to be vapes and
| Tiktok.
| concordDance wrote:
| > no reason to let your child use social media.
|
| It's nowhere near that simple unless you're living with the
| Amish. No social media results in isolation from peers, a cure
| worse than the disease.
| Minor49er wrote:
| What's stopping kids from simply hanging out with one
| another?
| ohdannyboy wrote:
| Culture has changed a lot since we were kids. Online
| communication is integral, disturbingly so since covid.
| They'll still hang out, but less than we did and they'll
| miss a lot since everyone except them was part of the
| online component.
|
| Pre-social-media I grew up with no TV, only Christian
| music, limited movies and a whole host of other things that
| isolated me from my peers. It didn't do anything but build
| resentment towards my parents and make me thankful they
| have no say in my life anymore.
|
| I don't now the best approach with kids these days since I
| don't have any. But I strongly doubt it's the "strict no"
| route.
| flangola7 wrote:
| A vital amount of social interaction that kids and young adults
| experience is online. For reclusive or socially anxious
| individuals it may even be the majority of interaction.
|
| It isn't like how it was 20 or even 10 years ago, blanket
| banning will leave them significantly socially isolated and
| stunted. IME anyone over the age of 25 will not fully
| appreciate this unless they regularly interact with and
| (critically!) actively listen to what kids have to say.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| Anecdotally, my friends who've had kids in the last 10 years
| are much more strict about social media than people who had
| kids 20 years ago.
|
| Newer parents have had the benefit of hindsight and got to
| see firsthand how fucked places like Facebook can be.
|
| But I'm not sure what the national trend is.
| tgv wrote:
| Taking away heroin from addicted people will leave them
| feeling bad. That's not a reason to keep supplying it to
| them.
|
| > blanket banning will leave them significantly socially
| isolated
|
| If they get that much of their interaction online, they're
| already socially isolated. That it happens to be called
| social media doesn't mean it's actually social.
| whats_a_quasar wrote:
| "For reclusive or socially anxious individuals it may even be
| the majority of interaction"
|
| This is definitely true. But we ought to also consider the
| risk that tech is creating socially anxious individuals. Some
| of those kids, if they interacted more in-person and spent
| less time alone, would eventually find like-minded friends to
| hang out with.
| Brusco_RF wrote:
| > For reclusive or socially anxious individuals it may even
| be the majority of interaction.
|
| Chicken? or egg?
| [deleted]
| mustacheemperor wrote:
| It seems similar to 15ish years ago in some ways. I remember
| my parents insisting instant messaging would result in us
| disclosing all our personal information to online predators
| and being kidnapped, so while most other kids at school were
| building friendships outside over AIM, we were excluded.
| Other parents would admirably fawn over how effectively we
| were restricted from all electronic socialization, while us
| kids were completely exhausted by the experience and
| eventually just learned to circumvent NetNanny.
|
| Telling kids today to stay completely off their phones seems
| even more futile. There's commenters mystified that kids
| "can't live without their phones"...Well, what do they learn
| when they are surrounded by adults who literally depend on
| their phones to live? How many of us are making plans with
| our own friends without one?
| SL61 wrote:
| I had a similar experienced as a kid in the 2000s, though
| not quite as strict as yours.
|
| My group of school friends would talk in person at school
| and then hop on a Call of Duty lobby when they got home, or
| chat on Facebook/SMS. Without internet or a cell phone, I
| was only present for a small portion of the their
| conversations and activities. Someone might post something
| funny or shocking on Facebook and everyone would be talking
| about it at school the next day. Sometimes people would
| continue a conversation that had started online the night
| before, and I had to either sit quietly or ask someone to
| fill me in (with mixed results). The result of all this is
| that I never quite formed bonds with that group, I was
| always on the periphery, the guy who hung out with them at
| school.
|
| I assume all of that is more intense today than it was
| circa 2010.
|
| The "keep your kids off social media" advice only works if
| a lot of other parents do the same, and if you live in an
| area where kids can easily visit each other in person.
| williamcotton wrote:
| Ok, so if the world has changed to the point where these kids
| cannot live satisfied lives without their phones... then we
| need to start progressively raising the voting age now so
| they never have any input into how the rest of us live.
|
| We can make them leper colonies filled with screens with up-
| arrows to click on.
| hgsgm wrote:
| I think a lot of adults misapprehend that kids chatting
| with friends is the same as adults arguing with strangers
| on HN and Redditm
| concordDance wrote:
| The boundary gets fuzzy sometimes. E.g. instagram
| mustacheemperor wrote:
| Do you utilize your phone to make plans and remain socially
| connected with your own friends? Or do you conduct your
| life completely over landline and computer e-mail?
|
| I would assume that in 2023, phones are a key tool for most
| adults' satisfied lives too.
| lemming wrote:
| I use my phone, but I don't use social media.
| williamcotton wrote:
| Do you realize how absurd a leper colony for tech
| addicted young adults would be?
|
| I'm happy to take the downvotes caused by leaving off the
| /s!
| mustacheemperor wrote:
| Haha, I think my radar for tongue in cheek vs genuinely
| absurd beliefs has been completely busted by my own
| lifetime with internet social media! Even on HN.
| williamcotton wrote:
| I don't even think my fellow servants of our dear new
| King are fully capable of the unmarked sarcasm these
| days. I just like playing with fire!
| concordDance wrote:
| Hence why you shouldn't try snide sarcasm and instead
| make your points directly and earnestly.
| williamcotton wrote:
| Are we on different internets?
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| A cellphone is a communication device for when you leave
| the house.
| b800h wrote:
| Do you suppose that encouraging reclusive and socially
| anxious people to avoid their problems is going to help them
| in the long run?
| [deleted]
| nilespotter wrote:
| This is the same APA that in 2019 published guidance on toxic
| masculinity. While they're likely right on this topic as social
| media is a cancer, this is not a serious organization that should
| be paid attention to.
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